I've started hanging out with a relatively new lesbian friend. (There's no attraction between us, we're just friends) Before I met her, I had only once ventured into a GLBT club but last week we went to ladies' night at a local one and I had a great time. I found myself wondering how Transsexuals are generally accepted by the Lesbian community. I'm Bi and Trans.... I really felt comfortable in that environment and I'm interested in exploring it more but I wanted to get some background info before I dove in head first.
I know that there are lots of Lesbian Transsexuals... For those who are: Do you feel that you fit into the Lesbian scene along with the cisgendered girls? Is it uncommon to find Lesbians that are open to dating a MTF? Have you found hostility? Curiosity? Support?
There are so many variables here first would be Ftm VS Mtf second would be the trans person's sexual orientation and third would be if the trans person has had any previous involvement within the lesbian community.
So from the experience of my fiancé's and my own experience this is what I can derive to answer your question I will also see if Seth will come over and answer this.
First I am Bi and I mainly lean towards women to be honest so I found myself involved within the lesbian community from what I have read the assimilation for trans-women into this community is usually not allowed or if it is it is a rough journey. I apparently pass so well that I am attractive ( not that I feel that way all the time this is just what people tell me) and being so apparently makes it easier to assimilate. Now my fiancé actually was a lesbian before he transitioned and from what he has disclosed to me he is pretty much ostracized now because he has given up his femininity ironically its the opposite for me ( another reason people make me go huh) he actually used to bar back at the only lesbian bar in town so he is obviously well known and used to be well liked by the community. As far as my previous involvement in the community I was pretty much hands off and only really got involved with fundraising community support at the local outreach center and every so often would go to the bars with friends mainly lesbian's. I really am not sure if the fact I was laissez-faire with the lesbian community also helped me be accepted is almost impossible to judge simply because I do not have the empirical data to analyze.
Sorry if that is allot of info I decided to keep it short I promise I did.
Bianca
Well as with all things, some Lesbians are open to dating a mtf or ftm, some arn't. Really depends on the chemistry. The times I've gone to a glbt Event, dance, etc, I very welcomed in the lesbian circles.
Beni
I think some of it may boil down to the community aspect. I haven't had any remarkable problems associating with lesbians, but I suspect that's due in part to some lesbians simply knowing me as a person and a fellow activist.
So when I came out as trans, there was sort of an "Ohhhh, that's it!" thing happening.
But long before I came out as trans, I don't know how many times a lesbian would say something like, "Y'know, I'm not into guys, but if I was, I'd be into you."
Still, my most promising dating pool seems to be bisexual women.
I get along fine in various local lesbian circles, mostly because I'm a lesbian. But I'm not a Lesbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbos) -- I'm not even Greek! :P :laugh:
most lesbians are fine with MtF TS - only lesbians like dwb are not but thankfully there aren't so many dwb's about.
For anyone in the 18-50 range I've been welcomed with open arms. I've had a few issues with some women older than that, but it's always been clear they've got personal baggage beyond me being trans which has played into it. To be fair I did have a head start in the community since most of my friend circle was lesbian and the vast majority of women I've dated have been lesbian. I also has helped that I am attractive by cis-standards because it lets people get to know me long before they learn of my history.
The transpeople I've seen fail miserably at integrating to the lesbian community are often because they fail to recognize and adhere to the social norms of lesbians. One of my friends wanted to come to a lesbian bar with me. I agreed to bring her and gave her two points of instruction regarding attire: don't wear a skirt and don't bring a purse. At first she got offended that I was telling her what to do, but when she got to the bar, she understood. At that bar walking in with those makes you a pariah (regardless of trans or cis).
Greer's the Female Eunuch... took a pretty dim view re M-t-F's...
And espoused 'us' as some form of aberration and proof of men's (male doctors) manufacture of women's sexuality...so I think still that (some) radical lesbian fems see this as an academic endorsement as such...
In my period of crossover back during those heady 80's (just pre HIV terror).....I ventured only once into an uber-male city gay bar....(hated it)....though had one single chap compliment me on what I was doing...but generally this was not a place for a woman to be... they're into M-E-N after all.....
In fact, I had two gay male friends (through bus/industry) that showed me absolutely no support at all.... I think if truth be told many gay men are horrified by the thought of tampering with anything to do with that hallowed, worshipped and adored vein ridden thing that is a symbol of vigorous upright masculinity...
And my one and only experience of a pussy-kat lesbian city Mayfair bar was I got touched-up/molested on my way to the toilets..... (I didn't like this either.)... as it was done while I was on the move..... And in the dim light many of the ultra-butch women, looked/behaved just like men it seemed to me, with none of the underlying benefits as such....
*s->-bleeped-<-s*
Though I did dabble with the idea of lipstick-lesbianism.....but in reality when I tried this, finally many years post SRS - it no longer worked for me....
(Though emotional relationship wise I value my GG girlfriends hugely)
Whatever lights yer candle as they so rightly say!
The lesbians who like us really like us alot, but the ones who hate us have a redhot hatred of us that scares the ->-bleeped-<- out of me.
I have not had any problems but I have never been deeply involved with the lesbian community. I have always had some really good lesbian friends though, even before transition. After I realized I was a woman it finally made sense why I was so attracted to lesbian woman. I always felt I fitted in with them. Often I was seen as a kind of mascot pre transition like "oh he is ok, he is transgendered" kind of thing, the token guy on a girls night out. My friends use to tease me about it.
I've had no bad experiences with lesbians. I am currently dating one.
I suspect it might make a huge difference how well you pass too.
Reality is there are absolutely no hard and fast rules at all.
It will depend partly on you and partly on the lesbian in question. Heck even some trans people don't accept other trans people as valid. I'm sure there may even be some on here who might secretly want to question me! :o ;)
At the same time Alison and I have always been made very welcome at Lesbian clubs and venues, even a few which were theoretically known for their dislike of trans women, but then we were both ultra long term postop, looked "right", and were very obviously a couple, so not seen as in any way predatory, and (therefore?) welcomed with open arms. Oh and Alison not only wore a skirt and had a bag with her - but she was wearing an ultra mini skirt too, which alongside my jeans tee shirt and leather jacket just made us a normal pair, and got her much appreciation.
I have even enjoyed a very cordial evening with Germain Greer herself, who despite her reported public pronouncements I found to be very warm and friendly. I must confess though that the Female Eunuch was genuinely one of my formative pieces of adolescent reading which may have helped my cause.
So go figure. ??? Like I say it depends on many imponderables...
I honestly think that it is impossible and maybe even foolish to generalise about this. All I can say is Good Luck and have fun.
Yes, it really depends but oce you are seen as a woman and have a vagina. Nothing else really matters.
Quote from: Nicky on August 19, 2010, 07:22:01 AM
I have not had any problems but I have never been deeply involved with the lesbian community. I have always had some really good lesbian friends though, even before transition. After I realized I was a woman it finally made sense why I was so attracted to lesbian woman. I always felt I fitted in with them. Often I was seen as a kind of mascot pre transition like "oh he is ok, he is transgendered" kind of thing, the token guy on a girls night out. My friends use to tease me about it.
I've had no bad experiences with lesbians. I am currently dating one.
I suspect it might make a huge difference how well you pass too.
Funny I feel the same way. Although my wife didn't consider herself to be a lesbian (and let me tell you she is a hottie) now she is starting to see herself as one. She's really good with it. My friends constantly were calling me a lesbian trapped in a mans body for years too! Maybe they saw something that I didn't. ;)
I work in film production and there are more than a few lesbians on the sets that I have connected with socially. I feel at home with them except when they are (and how the hell do I say this diplomatically...) all being visited by their monthly situation (okay, I probably STILL insulted someone). Other than that I too feel like I'm more of a softer Shayne (from the "L" Word). Plus, I'm also in a band and that seems to add to the whole thing too.
Quote from: stealth2010 on August 21, 2010, 06:12:50 PM
Yes, it really depends but oce you are seen as a woman and have a vagina. Nothing else really matters.
Disclaimer: The following is from my experience and I don't claim to speak for anyone else.
Thats the sad part right there. The vagina part, in my experience anyway, is what really matters when it comes to dating. The cis lesbians I know have accepted me with open arms, but when the prospect of dating comes a long and they find out what is between my legs the majority of them seem to freak out and don't want that. Again, this is purely my experience, but it has happened more times that I can count. There does seem to be test when it comes to dating though and that is what is between your legs. The same could no doubt be said for our trans brothers. I have had lesbian friends tell me that they would date a transmen, but not transwomen because transmen are "socialized" to be women and also because they have a vagina.
There is this weird contradiction in the cis lesbian community were they will say they accept us as women, but at the same time they don't want date us simply because of what is between our legs.
Quote from: themadwomyn on November 29, 2010, 04:21:54 PMThe cis lesbians I know have accepted me with open arms, but when the prospect of dating comes a long and they find out what is between my legs the majority of them seem to freak out and don't want that.
I can't really blame them. I'm not really interested in dating anyone who has a penis, either. But there are some lesbians (not to mention many, many bi or pansexual women) who aren't hung up about that.
De gustibus non disputandum est.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 29, 2010, 04:46:10 PM
I can't really blame them. I'm not really interested in dating anyone who has a penis, either. But there are some lesbians (not to mention many, many bi or pansexual women) who aren't hung up about that. De gustibus non disputandum est.
I'm not saying they don't have the right to say no, because of course they do. However, I find it a tad hypocritical for them to say "I see you as a woman" and then basically define me based on that one soul physical characteristic when it comes to dating.
Personally, I feel I could date a transwoman whether she was pre-op, non-op, or post-op simply because they are women. I couldn't date a transmen because they are men and I am not attracted to men.
Quote from: themadwomyn on November 29, 2010, 06:57:06 PM
I'm not saying they don't have the right to say no, because of course they do. However, I find it a tad hypocritical for them to say "I see you as a woman" and then basically define me based on that one soul physical characteristic when it comes to dating.
Personally, I feel I could date a transwoman whether she was pre-op, non-op, or post-op simply because they are women. I couldn't date a transmen because they are men and I am not attracted to men.
From my experience, attraction is never clear cut.
I've just started getting out there (as far as dating again) and this is kinda upsetting. :'(
The problem is I don't know any lesbians, so I signed up for on the the internet dating websites.
I dones't sound like I'm going to have any sort of luck until after my operation which is still over a year away.
I didn't have my hopes up to start with, but like everything else so far i was going to give it a damn good try. This attitude has gotten me this far...
Going to go cry now :'(
Jenny,
There are plenty of rainbow trout in the pond. The fact that being pre-op is an issue for some doesn't mean it's an issue for all. It doesn't matter for some lesbians, and like I said, there are plenty of bi or pansexual women who will love you for the person you are, but aren't hung up on particular body types. I've met a number of them myself.
So give it a shot. I think joining a dating site is a great idea. A lot of queer people use them for the same reason as you: it's hard to find people to date. If you are living life well, making positive changes, gaining confidence, becoming a happier and more out-going person, then people will be drawn to you. It sounds as though you have a good attitude, and I'm sure it will continue to serve you well.
Good luck!
Hi,
Why is wearing a skirt and bringing a purse not appropriate, when going to a lesbian bar?
I'm only selectively out (to those who I know would have absolutely no way of telling the people that I don't want to know,) but in my limited experience, lesbians have been nothing but kind to me, even knowing that I still act out the male role. Bisexual women on the other hand have often been very anti-trans, even when speaking on trans subjects without knowing my status. Perhaps I'm being overly judgmental, but I tend to think that a number of them are heterogirls who identify as bisexual because men seem to think that that's attractive. Not to imply that bisexuality doesn't exist; I just happen to think that a good deal of bisexual-identified girls at 18 will fall into gay or straight by the time that they're 30. Not all, but some.
I have found out over the years that most women mean selectivly bisexual when they say they are lesbian.
I married 2 women who were lesbian identified back when I played the man game. Granted I am a woman and always have been internaly but I wore the guise of a man for a long enough time to make it believeable. Not all lesbians are against a relationship with someone with a penis. It is a strike against you but it isnt a game ender.
I'm a Tgirl and more attracted to women than men.
I've been many times in lesbian communities and always had a very good time with the other girls.
I was more some kind of a lipsticklesbian and I was dressed like a female, sometimes skirt, sometimes blue jeans, make up and a purse.
I've never told that I was a TG, it's not their bussiness, I was there for pleasure not for discussing transitionmatters.
i've always told the girls when it becomes intimate that I was a TG.
Never a problem to the girls, so yes, we can be popular in the lesbian community.
hugs all
annette
I'm a lesbian transwoman and I've had mostly no trouble among the lesbian community around where I live and at my university. Most of them know I'm trans, but still see me entirely as being another one of the girls who likes girls. My current gf is also a GG lesbian and is put off by what I still have between my legs, but that only puts her off in a purely sexual since, and I'm not really interested in using it for sex anyway, so it hasn't really affected us.
I have, however, encountered lesbian communities where there are many prevailing negative views of transwomen. There was a lesbian chatroom I frequented for a while where the topic of transwomen came up, and there was a very negative connotation to the whole discussion, and one girl in particular went on at great lengths about the evils of transwomen when I attempted to voice some positive things about transwomen and why some of the negative things they'd been saying weren't true (Note: I was not actually out as trans in this chat room, to them I was just another GG Lesbian).
Most of it, though, seems to stem from a lack of understanding and information on what it means to be trans and what the process of transition results in.
Quote from: Beni on August 18, 2010, 10:42:29 PM
Well as with all things, some Lesbians are open to dating a mtf or ftm, some arn't. Really depends on the chemistry. The times I've gone to a glbt Event, dance, etc, I very welcomed in the lesbian circles.
Beni
Good point.
Since I am an M2F, I'm still biologically straight and now living as a woman I identify as a lesbian. I have never been successful in converting a straight woman into a lesbian (technically).
I have been using a site called plentyoffish.com and posted two dating profiles (one as male for intimate encounters and another for the lesbian relationship.) I have contacted well over 4,000 potential women I really like and so far have had no luck in finding someone new.
I know this sounds embarrassing for me to admit. Though, it seems to be the easiest way for me because this has bothering me for the past 15 years.
I don't have experience, but obviously all people, and all lesbians, are different... But, I think you should google Dr. Christine McGinn, and see her story. She is an infamous MTF surgeon, who herself is trans. She entered into the lesbian scene, and came out with a great partner and two children (who are biologically her's and her partner, due to sperm banking). Anyways, I hope she serves as some inspiration and proof that there is great love out there!
can someone define a cis lesbian please?
Quote from: lilacwoman on January 05, 2011, 03:51:10 PM
can someone define a cis lesbian please?
Cis = non-trans
Lesbian = a woman who is attracted exclusively to women
Cis lesbian = a non-trans woman who is attracted exclusively to women.
An insane number of my friends were lesbians before I came out and they are very very supportive. Lesbians are the best.
Quote from: fwagodess on January 05, 2011, 12:16:48 AM
Good point.
Since I am an M2F, I'm still biologically straight and now living as a woman I identify as a lesbian. I have never been successful in converting a straight woman into a lesbian (technically).
I have been using a site called plentyoffish.com and posted two dating profiles (one as male for intimate encounters and another for the lesbian relationship.) I have contacted well over 4,000 potential women I really like and so far have had no luck in finding someone new.
I know this sounds embarrassing for me to admit. Though, it seems to be the easiest way for me because this has bothering me for the past 15 years.
I'm a lesbian and have dated cisgender lesbians. I've found that having a lot of knowledge of lesbian culture really helps. And thinking of yourself as anything but a typical lesbian--especially as "biologically straight"--will tend to sabotage you pretty bad, so it's best to think "I'm a lesbian as much as anyone else" and act accordingly.
Still, online dating is kinda random, so good luck.
Depends on the bar and the customer base. Just like some places you have to wear a coat and tie and other places wearing a tie makes you look like you really don't belong there at all. A biker bar, be it a straight male biker bar, a dikes on bikes biker bar, or a gay biker bar are all biker bars and have a similar look and feel to them. A skit and purse might not be as appropriate as leather and levies, but a lipstick lesbian bar, different story.
Quote from: Mara on January 07, 2011, 03:34:34 AM
I'm a lesbian and have dated cisgender lesbians. I've found that having a lot of knowledge of lesbian culture really helps. And thinking of yourself as anything but a typical lesbian--especially as "biologically straight"--will tend to sabotage you pretty bad, so it's best to think "I'm a lesbian as much as anyone else" and act accordingly.
Still, online dating is kinda random, so good luck.
Over the five women I have been with for the past 18 years, I knew I was a lesbian when I was with my first girlfriend when I was a 10 year old boy dating an 11 year old girl. Since my first relationship, I knew I my sexual orientation would eventually become lesbian some 18 years later, but "Still Biologically Straight." I don't ever use the term "cisgender" but I use biological as a more preferred term.
Mara raises a good point, though.
Quote from: fwagodess on January 10, 2011, 12:21:25 AM
Over the five women I have been with for the past 18 years, I knew I was a lesbian when I was with my first girlfriend when I was a 10 year old boy dating an 11 year old girl. Since my first relationship, I knew I my sexual orientation would eventually become lesbian some 18 years later, but "Still Biologically Straight." I don't ever use the term "cisgender" but I use biological as a more preferred term.
Mara raises a good point, though.
But, see, I'm a biological woman. My hormonal levels are the same as any other woman, and I was born with the same neurological system as other women. Biological sex is more complicated than "male or female." That's a social construct that doesn't take into account transsexuality, chromosome arrangements other than XX or XY (which are more common than you might think), unusual genitals, and the like.
The reason people use cisgender, instead of biological or natal or genetic or "gg" ("genetic girl," originally "genuine girl") or plain "normal," is because cisgender acknowledges our identities and is probably more scientifically accurate. (Most studies conclude that we're born like this, that our brains are identical to those of cisgender people of our identified gender rather than assigned gender, and that transsexuality may have a genetic component, and that it is certainly normal.)
If you want to call yourself biologically male, that's your right. I'm just explaining why I don't, and why I refuse to let others call me that.
Vexing also raises a good point. As for one transwoman in Marion, Indiana. I am pretty much well known and have had more people in the area grudgingly accept the changes I have made. Most of them are people I went to school with.
Quote from: Mara on January 10, 2011, 10:00:22 AM
But, see, I'm a biological woman. My hormonal levels are the same as any other woman, and I was born with the same neurological system as other women. Biological sex is more complicated than "male or female." That's a social construct that doesn't take into account transsexuality, chromosome arrangements other than XX or XY (which are more common than you might think), unusual genitals, and the like.
The reason people use cisgender, instead of biological or natal or genetic or "gg" ("genetic girl," originally "genuine girl") or plain "normal," is because cisgender acknowledges our identities and is probably more scientifically accurate. (Most studies conclude that we're born like this, that our brains are identical to those of cisgender people of our identified gender rather than assigned gender, and that transsexuality may have a genetic component, and that it is certainly normal.)
If you want to call yourself biologically male, that's your right. I'm just explaining why I don't, and why I refuse to let others call me that.
My name, gender identity, and sexual orientation may have changed from a decade ago, but it has not changed the commitment to everything else. If that is not the definition of one M2F in Marion, Indiana - I don't know what is.
I have posted the original post (http://home.aeverine.info/franky-zinn-announces-gender-transition) on my web site announcing the gender change.
Quote from: Mara on January 10, 2011, 10:00:22 AM
But, see, I'm a biological woman.
As am I.
It's not like I'm an inorganic/non-biological woman, is it? I'm just as biological an organism as the next woman.
Aeverine Zinn, the article you posted, could you clarify this statement:
Quote"As a male, I am not attracting the young female demographics, and I am not attracting the new generation, the new generation of socialism."
I'm a little confused...are you wanting to attract younger females via your transition? Sorry, my reading comprehension isn't up to par.
I recently started to venture in to the lesbian community. I've been received positively. I've been up front with them, because I'm still pre-op and I don't want to have to explain that down the road if we do get sexually involved. I spend most of my life hiding who I was I'm not going to hide now. I don't want to be faulted that I wasn't honest.
That being said. To the average person who i'm not ever going to be intimate with it isn't any of their business. I don't hide it, but i also don't volunteer it.
Quote from: Rini on January 10, 2011, 07:19:09 PM
Aeverine Zinn, the article you posted, could you clarify this statement:
I'm a little confused...are you wanting to attract younger females via your transition? Sorry, my reading comprehension isn't up to par.
I usually tend to attract females usually in their late 20's to early 30's (now that I am 28 I still attract the 25-40 year old women as of 1/4/2011). There is one woman during my senior year of high school I went to my high school prom (aka Mississinewa 500) with and had no choice to tell my mother about my prom date back then. I told her "Brittani's the same age as I am--18-- and is a sophomore." (I knew she was 15 at the time.)
Since my transition began I have been attracting the women 18-34 demographic (in terms of Nielsen ratings), and that is pretty sweet (if I remember correctly).
Quote from: cynthialee on August 19, 2010, 07:12:12 AM
The lesbians who like us really like us alot, but the ones who hate us have a redhot hatred of us that scares the ->-bleeped-<- out of me.
My community is not representative. I don't know how valuable it is to generalize out of this community to broader application.
That being said, the situation here is that whether to accept transwomen as women is an individual decision, not a community one. Since the law clearly recognizes transwomen as female, those who disagree build up resentment. This is across the board. Doesn't matter gay or straight, male or female - there is a segment of the population that hates transwomen, builds up resentment, and becomes like a land-mine ready to go off in any unexpected circumstance.
If you consider that to be like a control group, it's been my experience that it is less likely a given person is a landmine if she is a lesbian than any other group.
But, when it comes to whether transwomen are in many lesbians' dating pools - that's still mostly NO WAY!
It really depends on the lesbian community your joining. I tried being part of the lesbian community in a large town and got knowhere. In hindsight though many cis lesbians didn't fit into it either.
In the end I met some people somewhere else had a really good time found a scene where I fitted in and am having a great time. I'm mostly not out though so YMMV but the people I am out to sound quite accepting. I'm not sure I'll get anywhere dating wise but that's partly my choice as SRS is only 4 months away and I'm happy to be single till after then.
I think the best advice is also learn to be a lesbian and learn the social scene. Not only did it help me fit in but I learn't loads about myself and found it immensly empowering. For example my lesbian friends were the ones who taught me I could have elements of masculinity and still be a women.
Quote from: GinaDouglas on January 17, 2011, 03:50:27 PM
That being said, the situation here is that whether to accept transwomen as women is an individual decision, not a community one. Since the law clearly recognizes transwomen as female, those who disagree build up resentment. This is across the board. Doesn't matter gay or straight, male or female - there is a segment of the population that hates transwomen, builds up resentment, and becomes like a land-mine ready to go off in any unexpected circumstance.
Gina's absolutely right. That is exactly what the problem is in today's society. I'm just as as feminine as the next woman (regardless of birth sex.) You are absolutely right, there is a segment of America that hates transwomen like you and I, look at yours truly - I know the truth plain and simple - hating a transwoman is considered to be disrespectful (mostly males that contact me and see in person) and I let them know I am one transgirl that does not tolerate hatred of any kind. 'Nuff said.
QuoteIf you consider that to be like a control group, it's been my experience that it is less likely a given person is a landmine if she is a lesbian than any other group.
But, when it comes to whether transwomen are in many lesbians' dating pools - that's still mostly NO WAY!
Good point, there's a damn good reason chances are there are such bisexual women usually in many transwomen's dating pools. I absolutely know this from what I have seen and heard - and that's just being on the safe side. Better safe than sorry.
Quite frankly, I happen to have a theory why there is absolutely nothing wrong with a transwoman dating a bisexual lady. I've actually have seen this happen according to my sources and my so called "lesbi-radar" (very similar to a gaydar.) How's that? Am I in that ball park
I'd say that our female dating pool is exclusively bi-women. If you're with a straight woman, she's thinking of you as a guy; and that ain't gonna work. If you're with a lesbian, she's getting alot of flack in the lesbian community. There are always gonna be lesbians who say, "Were you ever really a lesbian, now that you are with a man?" And her ex-lovers are gonna be climbing the walls, ashamed they were ever with her.
My GF is like the line from Henry IV: If not for the bloody guns, he would have been a soldier. She doesn't want anything weird going inside her, and she doesn't want to eat pussy; other than that, she probably would have been a lesbian.
Quote from: GinaDouglas on January 23, 2011, 11:34:49 AM
I'd say that our female dating pool is exclusively bi-women.
This is an interesting statement. In some ways I agree and in some ways I heartily disagree.
First of all, consider me: I have never had the slightest sexual or romantic attraction to any man. I'm a complete gold star lesbian. But I've met a few trans women I would absolutely date, if they would have me. So the dating pool of trans lesbians (who are not me) includes at least bio women, plus me.
Second, I dated a lesbian for a bit about a year ago -- not a gold star, but she identifies as lesbian, basically a six on the Kinsey scale. I have known other lesbians -- women who identified as exclusively lesbian -- that dated trans women.
Third, I have known people who identify as lesbian who have dated men occasionally, while still identifying as lesbian. This is not actually unusual: many straight sometimes date people of the same sex. You could say, "well, that means they're bi," but they would disagree with you, and if you came across them on a dating site, they would not be listed as bi. Basically, categories of sexuality are much, much more fluid than most people realize -- not that they are a "choice"; you're either into someone or you're not -- but the boundaries are just quite fuzzy.
Aside from
their preferences, tastes, and orientations, there is
my comfort, and I must say that I feel a bit better dating bi women at this intermediate stage of transition. I find that, since gender for them is less strongly linked to desire, that they tend to be more respectful of my gender. They just don't care, so they take the obvious gender cues I send them as sufficient.
So in the end, even if the dating pool for trans lesbians is
mostly bi women, that is only true if you take a broad definition of "bi." And if you do that, you end up with probably a good two thirds of all queer women; it's not much of a disadvantage.
In my experience most lesbians accept transwomen with open arms...so long as we are content to always remain their assexual buddy, mention the prospect of dating and most will reduce you to your birth genetalia, which is interesting because if some far right bigot does that to you the lesbians will call it bigotry but if they do it it is acceptable, kinda seems like a double standard if you ask me. Granted once in a blue moon there is a lesbian that has evolved past this but not very often. On the other side of the coin, gay men actually get it that we are women, and I frequently see them accept and be attracted to trans men that ID as gay males, it would be nice if the lesbian community could catch up to the gay men in this regard.
Gay men are more promiscuous than lesbians, so their dating pools are always larger. It's not an apt comparison.
Quote from: dove on January 25, 2011, 09:10:25 PM
In my experience most lesbians accept transwomen with open arms...so long as we are content to always remain their assexual buddy, mention the prospect of dating and most will reduce you to your birth genetalia, which is interesting because if some far right bigot does that to you the lesbians will call it bigotry but if they do it it is acceptable, kinda seems like a double standard if you ask me. Granted once in a blue moon there is a lesbian that has evolved past this but not very often. On the other side of the coin, gay men actually get it that we are women, and I frequently see them accept and be attracted to trans men that ID as gay males, it would be nice if the lesbian community could catch up to the gay men in this regard.
I don't agree at all... All of the anecdotal evidence that I've heard, especially from others in my local support group, have supported evidence of a large part of the Gay male community that has a deep hatred for MTFs. If anything, I've had the most trouble convincing my few Gay friends that I'm NOT a Gay male! They tend to have an, "Ok, sweety, I know you think you're a girl but you're really just Gay like us," attitude.
Quote from: JessicaR on January 26, 2011, 07:19:06 PM
I don't agree at all... All of the anecdotal evidence that I've heard, especially from others in my local support group, have supported evidence of a large part of the Gay male community that has a deep hatred for MTFs. If anything, I've had the most trouble convincing my few Gay friends that I'm NOT a Gay male! They tend to have an, "Ok, sweety, I know you think you're a girl but you're really just Gay like us," attitude.
I wonder how they square that opinion with women like me who are trans and like women?
Quote from: JessicaR on January 26, 2011, 07:19:06 PM
evidence of a large part of the Gay male community that has a deep hatred for MTFs.
Especially if you are gonna have MtF surgery and have sex with straight men. Then it's like, "Whatsa matter, gay men are not good enough for you?
All of the anecdotal evidence that I've heard
Is pretty much worthless, there is a reason that hearsay is not allowed in court.
Good thing this isnt a court of law. Here anecdotal evidence is accepted....
Yes, anecdotal evidence is used all over Science. Case studies, for example. And hearsay is not even an apt comparison to anecdotal evidence.
Fortunately the lesbian community isn't any more unified than the trans community, so there will be no 'blanket rule' for how lesbians will react/act towards trans women.
Unlike us, they're not a hive mind controlled by a single Queen.
Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 27, 2011, 03:19:49 PM
Unlike us, they're not a hive mind controlled by a single Queen.
Tell me who to hunt next oh queen...the hatchlings are hungry
Quote from: Helena on January 27, 2011, 03:43:23 PM
Tell me who to hunt next oh queen...the hatchlings are hungry
Go forth to the fruitful lands of the the Cisthings and stealeth for the hive their pouchlings!
TASTY pouchlings...
And then make me a cup of tea.
Lady Grey.
Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 27, 2011, 04:06:40 PM
Go forth to the fruitful lands of the the Cisthings and stealeth for the hive their pouchlings!
TASTY pouchlings...
And then make me a cup of tea.
Lady Grey.
Yes my queen.
*scuttles off*
Damn
*scuttles back*
*Sorry oh queen, we appear to be out of lady grey...we've got Assam, Camomile or roiboosh though
Quote from: Helena on January 27, 2011, 04:56:26 PM
Yes my queen.
*scuttles off*
Damn
*scuttles back*
*Sorry oh queen, we appear to be out of lady grey...we've got Assam, Camomile or roiboosh though
Anything with bergamot in it, Drone Mistress! You know how the hive gets cranky when I don't get my bergamot!
Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 27, 2011, 05:00:07 PM
Anything with bergamot in it, Drone Mistress! You know how the hive gets cranky when I don't get my bergamot!
*sends slaved drone to the shops*
Now where did i leave the kettle
*slaved drone returns from the shops*
oooooooooh, blossom earl grey, my queen will be pleased
*kills and eats slaved drone because she's bored, hormonal and craving protein*