I go to a lot of gay bars which is probably a mistake but I like many TGs do so because we either haven't transitioned yet or haven't gotten the confidence yet that we pass well enough to play pool with the straight guys at the straight bars. Regardless, I've learned a lot about the transgendered "world" and how much of it is full of bold-faced lies.
Let's get started. We know that TGism comes in a number of forms. Transgender means "crossing traditional gender lines." That includes drag queens, ->-bleeped-<-s, crossdressers, and transsexuals. These gay bars that are allegedly trans-friendly tend to take all of these different types, put them in a blender, and turn it on until it becomes one big soup that nobody can understand. I've learned that a big part of these lies are coming from TG people themselves who are either extremely confused or simply buying into the nonsense they see on popular television.
I'll try not to make this too long but don't bet on it. :) I started out crossdressing fully one night with the help of friends. I went out to a gay bar I had previously been at as a "man." I thought it was just something I tried. I thought I was just a crossdresser--someone who generally likes to dress up as a woman and present female from time to time but who is otherwise happy and comfortable living a male life. Well, the TSs started telling me how much I need to start doing this. I need hormones, I need boobs, I need to go full time. Such truths but such lies. It has now been over two years since that day and I've realized how much of these environments are fiction. Let me explain.
A TS woman is a woman not just someone who wants to feel like a woman or who wants to have sex as a woman. Obviously by now I've realized I am not just a crossdresser but this realization came through my own self disovery and by actually rejecting the constant unsolicited advice from other "TSs" to do this and do that. Let's be frank. These same people who call themselves transsexuals have been coming to the same gay bars for years and years and years. They don't want to take hormones regularly because they don't want to lose their libido. They are prostituting and penetrating men. They are making porno videos in the "she male" category. They are doing drag shows every weekend. Yes, they have boob implants and laser hair removal but not a one of them wants to lose their penis. I knew one transwoman who only occasionally dropped into this bar and she finally got her SRS. Now she has never been seen again. This got me thinking. These same girls who are still to this day telling me how I need to get on hormones, get boobs, fix up my hair, put on more makeup, have skimpier dresses, etc. all balk at the mention of SRS. They can't see how I could be serious that I would even contemplate losing my penis.
Let's go back to the one who got SRS and disappeared. It all makes sense now. What do women in general do? Do they go to gay bars every weekend in over-feminine outfits with excessive makeup on and do shows? Do they find prostitution and pornography interesting for their careers? No they don't. What do they do? They get up and go to work in the morning. They pay their bills and pay their taxes. They date and fall in love. They were jeans and a shirt to a gas station and something sexy for a night out on the town. They don't need excessive makeup, ultra-feminine clothes, and extremely large breasts, and men over every night to feel more like a woman. They don't need that because they are women, period. Well a true transwoman is simply a woman and should generally think, act, and be like any other woman in society not including the special challenges and alterations that come with transtition.
So to sum up my point. A lot of people are playing girl out there. That is fine. That is what makes a TV or a CD. There is nothing wrong with this at all. What is wrong is the misinformation and inappropriate labelling that is dangerous and confusing to the TS who is trying to understand herself and where she needs to go. A TS is a woman who defines herself as a woman and not a TS like it is some fashion statement. And honestly, why do I need slut-like clothes and excessive makeup to be a woman? Why would I need big boobs? Last time I checked when I see women running errands during the day or even at straight bars and restaurants at night they are simply wearning normal female clothes with minimal makeup. So to sum up my rant, basically it is more of a warning that there are an awful lot of people out there who identify as TS who are giving other TSs extremely bad advice. Open your eyes and look. There are women and there are those who are playing girl. If you don't see GGs doing it, then you are likely on the wrong track. And I'm sick of these so-called TSs asking me when I'm going to get on stage to perform. Um, I'm not a drag queen and if these girls actually are TSs then why is it for ten years their lives have solely been based around hooking, show performances, and the porn industry? Doesn't sound like normal female behavior to me. Enough said.
I know a few who did the things you've mentioned simply to pay for GRS, but, admittedly, they would be the minority.. Also, many years ago, while I was in denial, I filled in for a friend in a drag show.. None of the girls and guys I was working with claimed to be anything other than CD's or drag queens, except those who were post-op or saving for GRS.. This was about 17 years ago in Australia..
Hi Britney
I agree with most of your post. I think TG girls, at least in my city, go to gay friendly places because they won't get hassled by Neanderthals. But as I became more confident I have moved on to go to 'normal' restaurants etc. I think that when we (a TG club member) meet new girls who want to come out we tend to meet them in gay friendly places. They tend to be less intimidating.
But I totally agree about moving on. I've accepted I'm female gendered and wish to present that way as a normal healthy female. I get a kick out of wearing nice clothes but high heels and a mini at the supermarket is strange to say the least. I try and look as feminine as I can with make up, but not a DQ, just trying to hide the male looking bits. :laugh: :laugh:
I don't like generalisations but I was once told that 'most' DQ were gay males and 'most DK' were gay females. I have never done a survey myself ::). But that may fit with your observations. I have no issue with people being she-males and wishing to live that life. I have no issue with TG MtF who decide not to have the final surgery, for some, such as I, what's the use? I'm happy it is less able to perform ::), but in my fifties I'm not sure of the advantages of complete SRS surgery.
I also agree that we need to be able to warn young TG girls the dangers of mixing with people who may not understand the complexity of other peoples GID. I think this is a very strong reason to keep telling people to seek the help of trained therapists. From a personal point of view, the pictures I have seen of some she-males to be odd. An attractive looking 'woman' with an erect penis strikes me as strange. Although as I have said before, each person to their own. Now an attractive looking man with an erect penis.....time for a shower.
Cindy
There's a good reason for an MTF to go to a gay bar: to find a lesbian partner.
True that, but I don't think the poster was going that way :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Cindy
Likewise - I agree with your post, Britney, and while I don't have any practical experience it is clear that the trans folk you describe are different. I think we've been hopping around that issue a fair bit here of late... I choose to do what I can to respect them, but that sort of behaviour does come across as more of a lifestyle choice than an attempt to lead a life. Considering them to be the same thing does no-one any favours.
Mine is a lousy paraphrasing, but I'd heard a quote attributed to Paul O'Grady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_O%27Grady) once: that a ->-bleeped-<- cannot wait to ditch the corset and make-up when she gets home, but a transsexual simply wants to buy milk in the morning. It seemed somehow relevant. :)
Brtiney
Have to agree with the main point you've made.
For myself, I would have liked to simply live as normal a life as I can, in the gender I feel. Not to make any point, nor to deceive. But simply to be part of society, contribute as we all seek to do and more importantly, to have been free of the insecurity and depression that comes from having to pretend.
Equally, if some want to frequent gay bars and the gay scene generally then that is as much their right as anyone else.
Form talking to people, the principal reason most give for avoiding gay bars is the fear of being labled gay or being hit upon by gay people. This seems, on the one hand, sad that some are so insecure and on the other, strange that they fear their own inability to say no.
addition.
Just realised, the way I've written the last sentence. sounds incredably hypocritical and arrogant. I'm really sorry. If it helps, I didn't mean to be. Otherwise, I will take a look at myself again and try to sort it out. :)
I agree again with your last post Britney,
I think that gay clubs etc can be training wheels. Then we need to get on the bike.
Then we can do the full Tour.
Hugs
Cindy
I agree completely! Initially It was suggested that I go to gay bars so I could learn from other TS's about socialization, deportment, etc. I soon found that they had little to teach since to many it was a hobby or part time diversion.
I don't deny them their needs. But I needed to learn from women who would know better than to lean way over a pool table to make a shot in a short skirt and make no attempt to maintain their modesty.
It was fun to get out, but hardly educational.
-Sandy
I found the overtly gay scene to have an attitude of promiscuousness and showey behaviour.
Like Sandy, I don't want to suggest I am in any way critical. It just isn't what I wanted.
I just sought to be respectable and to fit in.
(Dam. I wish I'd worded myself like that in my previous post :'( )
I should have said a little more than I did in my previous post. The girls and guys I worked and associated with the time were more likely to point a genuine trans person in the direction of one of the support groups than anything else.. They were drag queens and kings, some were straight.. Having hung around in that scene, I agree that it's not the best place for FtM's or MtF's unless they also happen to be gay..
Quote from: CindyJames on September 13, 2010, 03:58:31 AM
I don't like generalisations but I was once told that 'most' DQ were gay males and 'most DK' were gay females. I have never done a survey myself ::). But that may fit with your observations. I have no issue with people being she-males and wishing to live that life. I have no issue with TG MtF who decide not to have the final surgery, for some, such as I, what's the use? I'm happy it is less able to perform ::), but in my fifties I'm not sure of the advantages of complete SRS surgery.
I also agree that we need to be able to warn young TG girls the dangers of mixing with people who may not understand the complexity of other peoples GID. I think this is a very strong reason to keep telling people to seek the help of trained therapists. From a personal point of view, the pictures I have seen of some she-males to be odd. An attractive looking 'woman' with an erect penis strikes me as strange. Although as I have said before, each person to their own. Now an attractive looking man with an erect penis.....time for a shower.
Cindy
Yeah, Cindy most of the Drag crowd I knew were gay/lesbian.. There was a couple who were straight, but only 1 or two. I'm with you on the surgery issue too. I want it, but for various reasons I don't know that I'll get there.. The club I worked at was one of the larger and better known venues so it often attracted the newer, younger girls and guys. There was usually a Seahorse or two around to keep an eye out for them and to give them a little guidance and friendship.. ->-bleeped-<-s strike me as a bit weird, but who am I to judge?
And as for that last line, don't be too long in the shower.. I need one too!
As for myself, despite being a straight girl (I think!) I'll probably still go to the odd gay pub or club (not the there's a whole lot of choice here Cindy) simply because it is somewhere I feel comfortable - oh also you don't get the odd looks the older people(over 25) get in straight clubs and the music is usually better! And I still enjoy a good drag show..
Hugs,
Kelly
Am I the only one who has a problem with all this over-generalization? Women don't need big boobs and tons of makeup to feel like real women? Are you serious? Is that why so many women get boobjobs these days? Where are you from? Go to Tempe, AZ, and you'll see tons of women who wear way too much makeup and have fake boobs. Go to Arizona State University at 10am on a Monday morning and walk across campus, you'll see dozens of girls dressed up looking like they're ready for a Friday night out at a dance club, when they're just going to class. Please don't over-generalize that ALL "real" women behave a certain "right" way. Not all women are the same, not all men are the same, not all black people are the same, not all white people are the same, not all Asians are the same, not all native Americans are the same. So, why would all transpeople be the same? Is there one "right" way to be black? One "right" way to be Asian? So, why would there be one "right" way to be trans? I'm thoroughly baffled by how even people within the trans community can't consider the possibility that the trans community might be just as diverse as every other community.
Also, people deal with their insecurities in different ways. Some people who are really insecure actually crave being the center of attention. Maybe some of these drag performers use performing as a way of overcoming their insecurities. And when they're on stage, maybe they get addicted to the attention. Maybe they were treated like crap in their past and so having people cheer them on and shower them with positive attention makes them feel good. Maybe some of them then confuse that attention with love and/or sexual attraction and end up being promiscuous with their fans. You think cis-women don't do the exact same thing? Look at any cis-woman strip club:
1) tons of makeup - check
2) fake boobs - check
3) performing on a stage - check
4) being lavished with attention - check
5) some of them end up being promiscuous with their fans - check
6) some of them ended up there because of insecurities - check
7) some of them ended up there just to pay for something: college, bills, being a single parent - check
You completely overlooked an entire group of cis-women who do the exact same thing. And by the way, I've known plenty of straight cis-women who get super dressed up with tons of makeup and provocative clothing only to go to the gay bar with their gay male friends. They do it to feel good about themselves, not just to attract potential partners. Sometimes they just want to feel pretty without getting hit on.
Each person is their own as to how they dress. They dress to please themselves. College students are just a sampling of the way younger cis-folks may dress. But it by no means the way all students or young people dress.
Just as not all cis-women dress in sweats, or a top and jeans. But to get an idea of how the women in your area dress, go to a local mall and just observe. But don't make the mistake of watching an age group beyond your own. Watching the young teens/20 something will not work for a woman in her 30s/40s/50s.
I fully understand why Transpeople go to gay bars. They have a long standing of being more accepting of Transpeople. But as you grow as the woman or man you were mean to be, you will move away from the gay bars, unless your orientation is that way.
I used to go to the local gay bars, just to get out. And I will still, to help a sister experience being in public, for the first time. But I am beyond them for myself. I have even moved beyond the bar/club scene, but I do go to, as Cindy said "normal", restaurants, stores and such.
I wasn't only looking at "my age group," nor was I implying that all college cis-girls dress that way. They're not my age group, either. At least, they wouldn't consider me to be in their age group. I was just pointing out that there are plenty of cis-women who behave in a way that is being labeled as not the way "real" women behave, but are just being overlooked. If you want to create a childish, exclusive little club that excludes those who don't behave in what you deem the "right" way is, that's fine. Feel free to count me out. I'll take being a "fake" woman or a "fake" transperson over being an arrogant elitist any day of the week. By the way, just so there's no confusion, I'm not a performer.
Quote from: valyn_faer on September 13, 2010, 10:35:32 AM
Am I the only one who has a problem with all this over-generalization? Women don't need big boobs and tons of makeup to feel like real women? Are you serious? Is that why so many women get boobjobs these days? Where are you from? Go to Tempe, AZ, and you'll see tons of women who wear way too much makeup and have fake boobs. Go to Arizona State University at 10am on a Monday morning and walk across campus, you'll see dozens of girls dressed up looking like they're ready for a Friday night out at a dance club, when they're just going to class. Please don't over-generalize that ALL "real" women behave a certain "right" way. Not all women are the same, not all men are the same, not all black people are the same, not all white people are the same, not all Asians are the same, not all native Americans are the same. So, why would all transpeople be the same? Is there one "right" way to be black? One "right" way to be Asian? So, why would there be one "right" way to be trans? I'm thoroughly baffled by how even people within the trans community can't consider the possibility that the trans community might be just as diverse as every other community.
Also, people deal with their insecurities in different ways. Some people who are really insecure actually crave being the center of attention. Maybe some of these drag performers use performing as a way of overcoming their insecurities. And when they're on stage, maybe they get addicted to the attention. Maybe they were treated like crap in their past and so having people cheer them on and shower them with positive attention makes them feel good. Maybe some of them then confuse that attention with love and/or sexual attraction and end up being promiscuous with their fans. You think cis-women don't do the exact same thing? Look at any cis-woman strip club:
1) tons of makeup - check
2) fake boobs - check
3) performing on a stage - check
4) being lavished with attention - check
5) some of them end up being promiscuous with their fans - check
6) some of them ended up there because of insecurities - check
7) some of them ended up there just to pay for something: college, bills, being a single parent - check
You completely overlooked an entire group of cis-women who do the exact same thing. And by the way, I've known plenty of straight cis-women who get super dressed up with tons of makeup and provocative clothing only to go to the gay bar with their gay male friends. They do it to feel good about themselves, not just to attract potential partners. Sometimes they just want to feel pretty without getting hit on.
This. Exactly this.
When I started reading this, I thought it would be about being hassled in gay clubs for being trans (something that's happened to me). I was wrong. Way too many generalizations. Who can really dictate what other people are in their identities? Can a trans person also be gay and thus frequent gay bars? Or, what about the trans women that can't afford anything (food, housing, clothes) so they turn to porn and prostitution? What's wrong with a woman penetrating a man? Some guys like pegging, and some women enjoy doing it.
Why do all transsexual people have to fit ONE specific set type of woman? It's bogus.
Precisely. Each person is their own person. It is your style as to how you look.
To say "This" is how a real woman or man dresses is pure idiocy.
I completely agree. I had a very similar learning experience when I used to go to gay bars.
I think it's wrong for any trans person to suggest how far another person takes their own transition. If anyone wants validation on whether or not they should transition it's not something I'll ever give.
As for valyn_faer's post:
I think the generalization was not meant to include your average cis women that happens to wear too much makeup and revealing clothes. There is a very specific type of "over-doing it" that is pretty much only characteristic of bad ->-bleeped-<-s and ghetto hookers. We're talking about the kind of garb that will get disrespectful glares pretty much wherever you go. And sure, if this is how a woman wants to be it's her choice and she's no less of a woman for doing it. But it still is a lifestyle that will set you apart from most other women, which is the point of making the distinction.
I can understand why this struck a cord with the FtMs though. This kind of stigma is what you guys have been trying to escape your whole lives so it makes sense that it'd be a touchy subject. I just think the original post was simply aimed at what most MtFs are familiar with when we think of over-done ->-bleeped-<-s. Britney made specific mention of your average woman's "needs" as opposed to "wants". I think it can be agreed that if a cis woman feels that she "needs" excessive makeup or a boob job just to feel like a real woman then there is probably something wrong with her.
Quote from: Ayaname on September 13, 2010, 01:57:27 PM
I can understand why this struck a cord with the FtMs though. This kind of stigma is what you guys have been trying to escape your whole lives so it makes sense that it'd be a touchy subject. I just think the original post was simply aimed at what most MtFs are familiar with when we think of over-done ->-bleeped-<-s. Britney made specific mention of your average woman's "needs" as opposed to "wants". I think it can be agreed that if a cis woman feels that she "needs" excessive makeup or a boob job just to feel like a real woman then there is probably something wrong with her.
I don't understand the bolded...nor do I understand why feeling like modifying your body=something wrong.
I am glad someone posted this. I have been thinking a lot about it lately. There will be some girls that always hang out in the gay or trans community for the majority of their social life. It is as if they are in constant transition. Living their transition instead of their life. I am still pre-op, myself. I do hang out at gay bars and with others in the trans community but that may be a lot less in the future. I do just want to live my life as you explained.
Quote from: Nygeel on September 13, 2010, 02:07:15 PM
I don't understand the bolded...nor do I understand why feeling like modifying your body=something wrong.
I said that first bit because I noticed that the FtMs were the ones that seemed to take the most offense to the original post. And I never said there was anything wrong with simply "feeling like" modifying your body. It becomes a problem when an otherwise normal cis female feels the "need" to modify her body. Very different.
Quote from: Ayaname on September 13, 2010, 02:15:01 PM
I said that first bit because I noticed that the FtMs were the ones that seemed to take the most offense to the original post. And I never said there was anything wrong with simply "feeling like" modifying your body. It becomes a problem when an otherwise normal cis female feels the "need" to modify her body. Very different.
I still don't get it. I see that you noticed that FTMs feel overall ticked off with the post but don't get like..."The stigma" or whatever it is we're "trying to escape."
Guess I kinda bolded the wrong thing. I'm out of it today.
Quote from: Nygeel on September 13, 2010, 02:19:02 PM
I still don't get it. I see that you noticed that FTMs feel overall ticked off with the post but don't get like..."The stigma" or whatever it is we're "trying to escape."
Guess I kinda bolded the wrong thing. I'm out of it today.
I guess I based it on the assumption that as children who don't yet understand what it means to be trans, there was probably a lot of built up resentment towards the typical female role and all of the stereotypes that go with it. In my experience a person will usually boil over with this resentment sometime either shortly before or after they realize who they really are. I've seen it a thousand times and even though that itself is a generalization it still seemed worth mentioning as I could have bet that FtMs would be more likely to take offense to the original post before seeing any of the replies. It just fit.
:police: Right - Time for a gentle but official caution I think. :police:
Stay on track people, and don't let this get too personal please. So far this thread has been interesting but lets not get too bogged down in the minutae please or it could end up being locked if it degenerated into sniping.
Also it would probably be best if we didn't do too much speculative thinking for others about how we THINK they MIGHT feel about the issue. It's probably better if each of us talks from our own experience and lets others speak for themselves.
Lets keep this thread the respectful debate that it has so far remained and then it will stay open.
Thank you for your attention and cooperation. :)
I've only been to a few gay/tg bars/clubs, and they definitely aren't best places to work on social skills. Meat market is a better description. I can somewhat agree on some of the generalizations made in the original post, but some MTFs like to go with an "ultra-fem persona" to make up for what they may feel is lacking elsewhere to compensate.
As for all the different types of trans-persons, that's why there are all the different colors in the rainbow. If it feels good, do it.
Ok, let me point out a few more things here. Should all women or men act the same? Nope. Should all TSs transition the same way? Nope. There are always bell curves that most people fall under and it doesn't mean that one must fall within a certain range. There is often more than one path to reach a goal as well. The point I'm making is that there are a lot of mis-aligned labels out there and an awful lot of bad advice coming from the transgendered community itself. For a young TS or someone in the middle of trying to figure themselves out this can be dangerous. Why else then would there be a standards of care that includes seeing a string of varied professionals? Please note that I am speaking from my own experiences which will not be the same as everyone else's.
So let's roll the clock back a little bit. It was only recently (as in 2008) that I started to learn and come to grips with my gender identity issues although now looking back to childhood I can see the endless strings of warning signs that I had previously ignored. So back in 2007 I went to a certain gay bar. At that time this is what I learned about TG people. There were the drag queens which were basically guys who dressed up as girls and who often performed on stage. The TSs were the ones with boobs. That's right and that is still how poorly defined it is in that same (and countless other places) bar today. If you've taken hormones and have had a boob job, you are a TS. If not, you are a DQ. Nonsense. When I first started presenting female which was mainly experimentation at the time, I was referred to as "being in drag" by others. Nonsense as well. By that time I had started to read and learn more and I certainly didn't feel like I wanted to call it "drag." So I called myself a CD (crossdresser). I considered myself to have two personalities or lifestyles--that of a male persona which I would present to the world during the non-interesting times in life (work, errands, family) and a female persona I would present in the fun times (the social scenes).
Well by early 2009 I realized that this wasn't quite right either. After all, it never really felt like it was about the clothes anyway and a much more serious internal struggle was going on. Again, I haven't transitioned yet but then you could say I have to a degree at least in terms of my appearance compared to what it was in 2007. Anyway let's get to the point:
There is nothing wrong with DQs, CDs, pre-op, post-op, and non-op TSs, and those questioning. What is wrong is when a significant portion of what people present and advise is incorrect. I've learned there are three realities in this world: the way things seem to be, the way things should be, and the way things really are. I know T-girls who are buying hormones off the street and from Mexico (lots of them). I know T-girls who have had direct silicon injections to form boobs and I know one who does this illegal operation all over the country (imagine if the FBI got wind of it), I know plenty of T-girls who believe pre-op and post-op refers to getting a BA, plenty of T-girls that have spent 10+ years involved in "she-male" porn and prostitution where their penis is the last thing they want to lose, I know T-girls who dance up and down on their Myspace pages saying "I'm a TS!!!!" as if this is a status symbol, and these girls that have spent 10+ years hooking and hanging in the same gay bars have no real intention of actually transition and seem to plan on porn and hooking until they are age 80 (get real). The concept of SRS is rarely discussed and few of these girls have even heard of the standards of care or understand the proper way to transition nor do they care.
I am constantly being told I need more makeup, more jewelry, sexier clothes. I need hormones, a BA, and to get a sugar daddy. Again, not a word about SRS and not a word about anything logical or sensible. There is a reason for this. Go back to the three realities. TG people are coming out now like the gays did years ago. There was a time when a black person was seen as a big lipped person who spoke ebonics and ate fried chicken. Then a time when gays were ridiculously effeminite men who danced around with flowers in a pride parade. When people start coming out they get exposure in the media. This is good and bad. Good in that they are starting to get attention, bad in that they are getting the wrong attention. A black person is someone who gets up and goes to work in the morning, a gay person is someone who gets up and goes to work int he morning, a transsexual is someone who gets up and goes to work in the morning. Get my point? These stereotypes are not only coming from the media but from loud mouths within the group themselves that are trying to live up to the "reality TV" image which is not reality.
Yes gay bars are good training grounds but when you look at the horrible misconceptions that are promoted there by people claiming to be TS themselves but who are literally interested in nothing more than a life of prostitution, porn, and finding sugar daddies with no sensible transition goals in mind, it sets an extremely dangerous environment for an actual TS who is trying to understand herself. While I do shy away normally from accusing someone of being something they are not, it is relevant to point out that there are a lot of fake people out there. They may be intentionally fake or they simply don't understand themselves.
I'm still learning myself. This is what I have learned in my journey of self discovery: Say I'm sitting in a gay bar wearing jeans and a top and a small bit of makeup and only barely passing enjoying a drink with friends and minding my own business. When someone I don't know walks up to me and says "I'm a TS, I can help you" and then starts giving me unsolicited advice on fixing my hair, needing more makeup, and asked "when I'm getting a BA or hormones" is to take their advice and flush it down the toilet. Not everyone is the same nor should they be including TSs. That is why when someone gives you advice where you never asked for it or if the advice puts you out of your comfort zone you should severely scrutinize such advice and consider dismissing it altogether. Professionals are not exempt from this either. There are a ton of therapists and psychiatrists who give TSs horrible advice. This is why I'm ranting. There are too many people out there "meaning" to do well for us, claiming to be survivors and livable examples, when a lot of it is utter nonsense and lies. Thanks for listening.
Dear Britney,
thank you for this thread. I haven't met any of this sub-type of transsexuals yet, so I cannot say much from my personal experience. But I know another sub-type from another subculture, which comes somewhat close to what you describe, and which I met in a fetish bar. They did not sell their body there nor look for a sugar daddy, and they did not even work in the porn industry. However, some of them - not all - seemed somewhat weird for me to say the least, with over-done extremely feminine somewhat drag queen-like outfits (very different from the GG outfits there), and they gave me more the impression of crossdressers having made the worst mistake of their life by transitioning. Not just with their clothing styles etc., but with everything. They had been on hormones, name hange, bottom surgery ahead or done, and they seemed to mostly socialize with crossdressers/->-bleeped-<-s. And I know quite a couple of crossdressers and MTFs so I can compare a bit...
They did not try to advise me on how to dress etc. more female, but it seemed to me that it would have been a bad idea to follow their suggestions on this topic anyway if a decent passing is what you're aiming at. People there knew I was a transman as I had already been there before transition and went to that place until I had a 100% passing as male and 0% passing as a female. I did not like the idea that some of the guests might think I might be like "one of" the kind of people I've just described above though we were all transsexuals. Call me close-minded or prejudiced or whatever for that if you want to.
It was interesting to read about your experiences with the gay bar people there, as I did not know anything about the sub-type of transsexuals you described. And I did not understand why you got so much bad feedback for your posting. And if you got so much bad advice from the gay bar TS, it is a good idea that you warn other people from blindly following these advices. Which can also be applied generally to anyone giving anyone advice on any topic.
Perhaps it all boils down to this:
Quote from: Britney_413 on September 14, 2010, 02:41:19 AM
when someone gives you advice where you never asked for it or if the advice puts you out of your comfort zone you should severely scrutinize such advice and consider dismissing it altogether.
Any advice should be weighed to see how it may apply to you. Sometimes people offering advice have their own issues that they are addressing rather than your best interests in mind. And I don't think that bars are necessarily good places to find role models.
Several months into my RLE, a cis-woman I know described seeing the kinds of TS's Britney describes. She then said with some amazement: "But you're so
normal!" I replied that I
am normal – a normal transsexual.
It all depends on what you want and what you need and what kinds of role models are available to you. My role models are my cis-women friends. I will always be a transsexual, but I am also just a woman – the same as my friends are.
- Kate
I am not sure how much I can fault people who give me unsolicited (and usually poor) advice. The way I figure it, their point of view is very much caught in their own frame of reference, they have only lived their own life, with their own dreams and their own insecurities.
The truth of the matter is it doesn't really matter if the advice is well intentioned or they are just trying to validate their own path vicariously, you are the only person that lives your life therefore the only person qualified to decide what is best for you.
This all being said, we don't know what is best for those TS's that the OP spoke of, certainly the idea that they never want to lose their penises is something I cannot relate to, but I lack their frame of reference, I haven't lived their life, and I certainly wouldn't judge it. I would never be like them and that is fine, but that doesn't make them horrible to me, just different than me.
I use this theory alot in my day to day life, if I didn't I think I would be just a big ball of negative energy as there are so many groups of people I don't understand and would never want to be like, but instead of disliking them I try and look at it from a point of view that I don't really have enough information to dislike them.
Very well said, Hikari.
I think people put way too much importance on normalcy and pass way too much judgment on those who don't fit their criteria of "normal." I've met people who have all kinds of body modifications--gages, tattoos on their face, subdermal implants, etc--who some people would probably consider "freaks" and they were really nice, interesting people. And I think the whole boobjob-as-sign-of-insecurity concept needs to be re-examined in our society. People get all tatted out, pierced up, and modify their bodies in all these other ways. Some people spend thousands of dollars on their tattoos, more than what they'd spend on a boobjob, but we don't say they're not a "real person" because they felt the need to get tattoos. We just say they're following the current trend. Why is a cis-woman then not a "real woman" if she feels the need to get a boobjob? Maybe she too is just following the current trend. There was a guy on Letterman a few years back (a male identified guy) who got a boobjob as part of a bet. A friend of his bet him to get one and to keep them in for a certain amount of time; I don't remember how long. He said he would pay him like $50,000 or something, plus the cost to get them removed. Again, I don't remember the actual amount, but I'm pretty sure it was in the tens of thousands. Well, the guy won the bet and decided to keep them in permanently. He said he just liked having them. Some people called him a freak, a weirdo, and claimed it isn't "normal" or that it's "unnatural." I say, who gives a crap. Maybe if we had more people who aren't "normal" we wouldn't have so much discrimination in our society. Or rather, perhaps a better way of phrasing it is, maybe if we had more diversity we wouldn't have so much discrimination in our society. Sorry if this is detracting from the original topic.
Quote from: Britney_413 on September 13, 2010, 01:05:37 AM
I go to a lot of gay bars which is probably a mistake but I like many TGs do so because we either haven't transitioned yet or haven't gotten the confidence yet that we pass well enough to play pool with the straight guys at the straight bars. Regardless, I've learned a lot about the transgendered "world" and how much of it is full of bold-faced lies.
Let's get started. We know that TGism comes in a number of forms. Transgender means "crossing traditional gender lines." That includes drag queens, ->-bleeped-<-s, crossdressers, and transsexuals. These gay bars that are allegedly trans-friendly tend to take all of these different types, put them in a blender, and turn it on until it becomes one big soup that nobody can understand. I've learned that a big part of these lies are coming from TG people themselves who are either extremely confused or simply buying into the nonsense they see on popular television.
I'll try not to make this too long but don't bet on it. :) I started out crossdressing fully one night with the help of friends. I went out to a gay bar I had previously been at as a "man." I thought it was just something I tried. I thought I was just a crossdresser--someone who generally likes to dress up as a woman and present female from time to time but who is otherwise happy and comfortable living a male life. Well, the TSs started telling me how much I need to start doing this. I need hormones, I need boobs, I need to go full time. Such truths but such lies. It has now been over two years since that day and I've realized how much of these environments are fiction. Let me explain.
A TS woman is a woman not just someone who wants to feel like a woman or who wants to have sex as a woman. Obviously by now I've realized I am not just a crossdresser but this realization came through my own self disovery and by actually rejecting the constant unsolicited advice from other "TSs" to do this and do that. Let's be frank. These same people who call themselves transsexuals have been coming to the same gay bars for years and years and years. They don't want to take hormones regularly because they don't want to lose their libido. They are prostituting and penetrating men. They are making porno videos in the "she male" category. They are doing drag shows every weekend. Yes, they have boob implants and laser hair removal but not a one of them wants to lose their penis. I knew one transwoman who only occasionally dropped into this bar and she finally got her SRS. Now she has never been seen again. This got me thinking. These same girls who are still to this day telling me how I need to get on hormones, get boobs, fix up my hair, put on more makeup, have skimpier dresses, etc. all balk at the mention of SRS. They can't see how I could be serious that I would even contemplate losing my penis.
Let's go back to the one who got SRS and disappeared. It all makes sense now. What do women in general do? Do they go to gay bars every weekend in over-feminine outfits with excessive makeup on and do shows? Do they find prostitution and pornography interesting for their careers? No they don't. What do they do? They get up and go to work in the morning. They pay their bills and pay their taxes. They date and fall in love. They were jeans and a shirt to a gas station and something sexy for a night out on the town. They don't need excessive makeup, ultra-feminine clothes, and extremely large breasts, and men over every night to feel more like a woman. They don't need that because they are women, period. Well a true transwoman is simply a woman and should generally think, act, and be like any other woman in society not including the special challenges and alterations that come with transtition.
So to sum up my point. A lot of people are playing girl out there. That is fine. That is what makes a TV or a CD. There is nothing wrong with this at all. What is wrong is the misinformation and inappropriate labelling that is dangerous and confusing to the TS who is trying to understand herself and where she needs to go. A TS is a woman who defines herself as a woman and not a TS like it is some fashion statement. And honestly, why do I need slut-like clothes and excessive makeup to be a woman? Why would I need big boobs? Last time I checked when I see women running errands during the day or even at straight bars and restaurants at night they are simply wearning normal female clothes with minimal makeup. So to sum up my rant, basically it is more of a warning that there are an awful lot of people out there who identify as TS who are giving other TSs extremely bad advice. Open your eyes and look. There are women and there are those who are playing girl. If you don't see GGs doing it, then you are likely on the wrong track. And I'm sick of these so-called TSs asking me when I'm going to get on stage to perform. Um, I'm not a drag queen and if these girls actually are TSs then why is it for ten years their lives have solely been based around hooking, show performances, and the porn industry? Doesn't sound like normal female behavior to me. Enough said.
Well you pretty much got it. A TS woman pretty much just wants to live a normal life as woman, since its kind of been pre-built into her. Your depressed when you see your body and it doesnt match other women. It has nothing to do with sex with anyone really. I knew i was different when i was 5, my brain didnt work the same way as other boys, and I didnt know why things were harder, yet i could mix with girl groups pretty easily and felt comfortable. I had your typical well adjusted boy upbringing too, 2 parents, 1 older sister i didnt see much of, friends. I was happy, but didnt realize how different i was till i looked back.
The sad part is a lot of TS girls cant afford the hormones and start sex trade jobs to get by, some want SRS but actually like the money more and know if they got it, the money will end, and that is all they know how to do. I do know one girl who talked about it, and lived it, she broke free of it but it took a lot of effort once your embedded in that lifestyle, eventually went to college and did well, but her past will always haunt her and the things she did. In the my old doctors office i saw a lot of these girls getting shots, two were arguing over the same guy paying one more then the other to sleep with him, both had chanel bags and dressed provocatively. Its as sad thing to see...
All I know is I'll never hang out in gay bars because I never hang out in bars anyway :)
g
Your description describes the majority of TS's I've met. One of the few who didn't match this characteristic became one of my best friends during transition. More about my experiences can be read here: http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-transition.html (http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-transition.html)
Believe it or not I'm not as judgmental as I seem in these posts. But let's be real here. Again there are three realities in this world: they way things seem to be (what your TV portrays of the world), the way things should be (your own perceptions of reality), and the way things actually are (if a tree falls in the forest and no one can hear it that means that it still did in fact make a sound).
If someone needs/wants to make porno or prostitute that is fine with me. Some women do it as a temporary means of sustenance. Some actually enjoy it. Some do it and they don't know why. That is what I'm going to touch upon: doing things you don't know why which is a lot of American society. This is a fast track world and a lot of people get caught up in it. That doesn't mean it is wrong. Everyone has their own needs and wants and ways of acquiring them. It does mean though that some choices have rewards and other choices have consequences. Let's look at the choice of the MTF TS.
I could fast track it which is what these girls I'm talking about here are doing. I could sell a bunch of my valuables first thing tomorrow and go schedule a boob job the same day. I can get hormones right now if I want just with a phone call. I could leave right now and give someone a ->-bleeped-<- for $100 or more tonight. I have enough clothes that I could just start dressing as a female full time starting first thing tomorrow. There is an easy and fast path and a hard longer path. What I described is the easy fast path but it has consequences. Sure, you are now a full time TS living as a woman but a woman being used by men, a woman who hasn't taken the right steps to do it right, does not pass, is seen as a misfit, and still associates with the gay and "->-bleeped-<-" scene which is drugs, bars, porn, and hooking (not all of it but enough of it). Then you get caught and are arrested and put with men. Or you die from the hormones you took without a prescription. Or someone kills you or you get sick of it all and kill yourself. Some people take this path and they end up fine but these TSs I'm referring to are basically living the life of a self-identified TS and not a life of a woman. Ok some women do porn and hook but let's get real here. I'm still not judging here but again choices have consequences, others have rewards. Some lives have a future and some do not.
The other choice is to take the slow hard path and do it correctly. Dress like a boy or androgynous as you need to. Get to a therapist and set up a plan to tackle one step at a time. Decide when to start the hormones under a doctor's care or if you even need them at all. Decide when or if you get FFS, when or if you get a BA, and SRS. Decide who to tell, when to tell, and what to tell. Decide when and how you should start changing your personal appearance and how rapidly. When to go part time and when to go full time. Spend money wisely and do things wisely. Tread slowly and cautiously until one day you wake up as a mostly passable girl who simply runs by the post office, the gas station, and the drug store in the morning on the way to work--under a legal female name and a legal female gender. Happiness is never guaranteed and it is really what you make of it. The point again is it really comes down to choices we make and not all choices work for all people but we can't deny that certain choices lead to certain overall trends and consequences.
So I go back to my original point about "transsexual lies." The TSs I'm describing in these bars are choosing the fast-track reality TV life of a "->-bleeped-<-." If it works for them that's great but it doesn't work for everyone. Worse, when the trans and non-trans population starts to learn about what transsexualism really is look at what they are presented with. Pop culture isn't about normalcy but sensationalism. People aren't seeing the normal TS woman who simply "buys milk in the morning" they are seeing a man in a dress hanging out in the alleys of gay bars. That is what the TV is telling them and that is what the TSs who make the fast-track choice are essentially doing. And these choices and bad advice certainly do have consequences. Almost every time we hear about a transgender hate crime murder it is not the TS who has simply become a woman and moved on with her life. It is usually about a TS prostitute found on the street shot or strangled in her own bedroom.
I'm not trying to be depressing or cynical in this post but the truth is the truth. I'm not saying people don't have the right to live how they wish. I'm not even judging the girls I know who live this kind of lifestyle. I'm point out that choices have consequences and that we need to be careful where we take our advice from. Most of this advice is not coming from the quiet TS living her life and helping another sister along after having been there herself. The advice is coming from the loud mouthed idiots who are on reality TV, on escort and ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- sites, and in gay bars. Don't believe me? Pertend you just figured out you are a TS. Google it. Before you find support sites like Susan's and educational articles you will find porn and dating sites, galleries, celebrity gossip, and similar nonsense.
Have a nice night.
To respond to another point someone made here about diversity being good. I agree but again just because you can do something doesn't mean you should and just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it won't have consequences. Sure, you can cover yourself in tattoos and get piercings everywhere. It may look cool and there is nothing wrong with that. But then when you get denied a job because of your personal appearance then that part of reality also sets in. We do need brave souls who push the boundaries to get more things accepted and I think that is great. Often someone has to suffer for someone else to succeed. But that is a choice that only you can make. The TDOR started after someone opened her door. A simple decision not to open a door may have saved her life but then she wouldn't have inadvertantly started a reaction. It may be a terrible example and way of looking at it but it is the truth. Diversity is good but you have to use common sense as well. Just because I can dress up as a flaming drag queen and go to a redneck biker bar doesn't mean I should. We all must pick and fight battles. Some do it wisely and some do it poorly. I could get a BA tomorrow from black market silicone direct injections and die in 15 years or I can wait a few years and go to a reputable surgeon. Good things come to those who wait. Haste makes waste. You get the idea.
Quote from: Dee_pntx on September 15, 2010, 05:09:21 AM
I wear jeans, sneakers and bland, modest blouses.
Yay for sneakers!
Quote from: Dee_pntx on September 15, 2010, 05:09:21 AM
I am not proud to be TS, to the contrary, I'm very ashamed of it.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Quote from: Dee_pntx on September 15, 2010, 05:09:21 AM
I do resent that I'll be sentenced to a life of dilation, a constant, painful reminder of my past.
Um, brushing my teeth each morning reminds me that I have teeth, but not in a painful way.
My closest long-time friends are a gay couple who have been together for the 25 years I've known them. They are ordinary, intelligent, good-looking men who are a couple. They have told me a few stories about "the gay scene" but both found out very soon that it wasn't for them. They met walking on the beach, were attracted to each other, got to know each other, and have been together ever since. They don't go to gay bars or any bars. They don't look like television gay men. They don't act like stereotypical gay men except when they are pretending. They fit some stereotypes of gay men but don't fit others.
I think the same is true for transsexuals. There are some – the visible ones – who hook and flame and make a big deal about being TS. And then there are the rest of us, who just want to change our bodies enough to live our lives as the women we are. A talk show with a panel of "ordinary" transsexuals (if you could get them to agree to go on the show) would be boring.
I think of myself as an ordinary transsexual – a woman who was born with a male body. Once I realized I could do something about being a woman living as a man, I cautiously, quickly changed what I could to become a woman living as a woman. (When asking for hormones, I told my doctor that I wanted to change my body as quickly as possible safely. I could have changed it more quickly, but I want to live a long, happy life as a woman.)
I have accepted that I am transsexual. It is just another aspect of who I am, like my poor eyesight or my aging face. Because I am established in a small town, I have to be out unless I move. Other than that, I am just a woman with an unusual past.
I think that many (most? all?) of us want to change right now once we decide to do it. There lies danger. Being able to live your life as a woman is a process of adjustment and learning and reflection. Hurrying the process will cause problems later. We make our choices and then live with the consequences.
If you want to be a drag queen, a drag queen may be able to give you some good advice on how to do that. If you want to be an ordinary woman, a woman friend may be able to help you, or perhaps another TS who has achieved status as an ordinary woman can advise you.
[I use the term "ordinary woman" to denote a woman who is accepted as a woman in mainstream society.]
- Kate
I do find this 'ordinary woman' thing quite interesting, while you may approve or disapprove of lifestyle choices, womens womanhood is never called into question in the way that has been talked about with regard to trans women. Hilary Clinton is a woman and no one would ever question this, same goes for Britney Speers, Lady Gaga (alright some people have questioned this with gaga), Dita Von Teese, K D lang, Courtney Love, Whitney Houston or any other woman, whether they are into library visits, heavy bondage or hard drugs, it just isn't an issue. So I find it a bit strange when we talk as though our preferences and personality have some deep relevence to our gender identity and that trans women who don't conform to our image of an ordinary woman are somehow not real. Live and let live, that's what I say,and if anyone needs me, I'll be at the library (honest! :angel:)
Quote from: MillieB on September 15, 2010, 12:46:51 PM
I do find this 'ordinary woman' thing quite interesting, while you may approve or disapprove of lifestyle choices, womens womanhood is never called into question in the way that has been talked about with regard to trans women. Hilary Clinton is a woman and no one would ever question this, same goes for Britney Speers, Lady Gaga (alright some people have questioned this with gaga), Dita Von Teese, K D lang, Courtney Love, Whitney Houston or any other woman, whether they are into library visits, heavy bondage or hard drugs, it just isn't an issue. So I find it a bit strange when we talk as though our preferences and personality have some deep relevence to our gender identity and that trans women who don't conform to our image of an ordinary woman are somehow not real. Live and let live, that's what I say,and if anyone needs me, I'll be at the library (honest! :angel:)
Oh my, I got this Lady Gaga-questioning phonecall from my parents tonight as they "heard rumors" she was an MTF and wanted my "expert's" opinion here. Sometimes it's useful to have a transsexual son. Well it was not the only reason they called me. Er, I think Lady Gaga's a GG. Low voice? Are you kidding? Plus female skeleton etc. Unless she's one of the few fortunate ones who could transition before puberty hit them, and I don't think that's the case here. Maybe what confuses people is her ultra-femme but at the same time aggressive gender presentation. Okay, back to topic.
I think the issue here is not general lifestile choices. It's rather about trans-specific issues, like getting money for surgery etc., longing to be seen somehow as a woman and being ready to trade off your self-respect for this, some distorted vision of womanhood, and I also guess (but I don't know that sub-culture so I can't judge for sure) some people who are not really transsexuals but rather fetishists.
Honestly, let me read a couple more stories like that, and I might eventually develop a sexual phantasy about it. Like, treating one of these women like the ladies they are inside IF they are ladies inside, going to a nice restaurant with them and have nice conversation there, not tearing them into my bed, not grabbing after their dick or tits or asking anything about their physical make-up, just treating them gentleman-like with respect. No sex involved, not even after the 30th date, just medieval-like courtship. Sounds pretty boring, conservative and non-sexual, I know, but it's like I want a woman to be treated with respect if she is worth it. I want to see her smile and see her eyes shine and want her to be happy with me around. Well, and in the meantime, I can always choose the do-it-yourself solution for my urges.Okay, the idea here is about me being
the special guy in her live. I admit that.
->-bleeped-<-. I'm getting romantic here. I hate that anyway. Especially as I know that prostitutes tend to develop a thick skin to protect themselves from emotional envolvement and to become tough and rough. Okay, next time I go to a gay bar, I'll check out both the guys and girls and not concentrate on TS people - as I always did anyway. In the gay bars where I was, there were always only two or three TS-women anyway.
Oh, and gay bars are not completely pointless to go to if you're looking for a hook-up. I got hit on by bi guys there quite often before transition ("Well, in fact I was just looking for a guy here to hook up with tonight, but you're pretty hot.") Or by straight friends of gay guys. I never let this turn into anything more than flirting though, as it always pissed me off to be "the only girl interested into boys" there. I wore drag, but I was not a girl.
hey Millie, some of us are talking about this "ordinary woman" thing (well more-or-less anyway :) ) over here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,83818.msg592246.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,83818.msg592246.html)
Just thought I mention it, in case you might be interested in joining :)
g
Fencesitter,
That really is my point though, some women do have to trade their dignity to get by in this world, particulaly in poorer parts of the world, none more so than trans women with the inherant costs involved. They do what they need to do and no one calls into question the gender identity of cis women for this. Their morality maybe, but not their whole identity.
Also again their is this thing about trans women not being transsexual but rather fetishists as if the two are mutualy exclusive and their are absolutely no female fetishists, there are plenty and this is accepted for cis women but not for trans women, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Okay, I'll accept that it is a minefield and sometimes people are cross dressing just for sexual purposes but to be honest, I have never met one who claims to be transsexual so what's the harm.
But I will say again that I don't think that finacial need or personal preference have a great deal to do with our gender identity and I think that we get judged by a completely unrealistic and frankly sexist viewpoint of femininity that cis women would never put up with.
Quote from: MillieB on September 15, 2010, 04:21:19 PM
Fencesitter,
That really is my point though, some women do have to trade their dignity to get by in this world, particulaly in poorer parts of the world, none more so than trans women with the inherant costs involved. They do what they need to do and no one calls into question the gender identity of cis women for this. Their morality maybe, but not their whole identity.
Also again their is this thing about trans women not being transsexual but rather fetishists as if the two are mutualy exclusive and their are absolutely no female fetishists, there are plenty and this is accepted for cis women but not for trans women, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Okay, I'll accept that it is a minefield and sometimes people are cross dressing just for sexual purposes but to be honest, I have never met one who claims to be transsexual so what's the harm.
But I will say again that I don't think that finacial need or personal preference have a great deal to do with our gender identity and I think that we get judged by a completely unrealistic and frankly sexist viewpoint of femininity that cis women would never put up with.
Quite my opinion. And of course, yes, there are female fetishists as well, but I think in the shrinks' surveys, you hardly ever hear from them as females are usually raised into a gender role where they cannot admit their own sexual interests as soon as it's not the really nice but boring every-day stuff. Women can be quite kinky, but they won't admit it easilly. Hell, even I get off on putting on female stuff if it's exactly the right things. Maybe that even may have made me delay my transition ("Okay, body and mind don't match and that's a pain... a really bad pain... but at least I can wear sexy stuff now as a female whenever I want to and it makes me hot - Gothic style, nylons, mesh hoses etc."). Transvestitic fetishism with an additional quirk... Please don't ask me about my outfits then. ;D And I guess most shrinks would be challenged with this in terms of open-mindedness so I never disclosed it. Why should I anyway?
But apart from that, I'd not judge someone morally if they need to get money and don't steal it, but prostitute themselves. You cannot make money fast easily other than this way. And it's a fair trade - you trade with the customer, you agree, you provide service and get paid. No stealing, bribery or whatsoever. They may lose some of their dignity over time, but morality is something completely different. Fair trade is okay. I don't see a moral issue there in itself - as long as you take care of yourself , make it safer etc. It's just business, though a very difficult business.
The problem is, that some people just want to have everything as fast as they can. Anybody can become a CD/DQ/whatever overnight but nobody can become a woman :)
g
Quote from: ggina on September 15, 2010, 05:03:46 PM
The problem is, that some people just want to have everything as fast as they can. Anybody can become a CD/DQ/whatever overnight but nobody can become a woman :)
g
That's true. Feleling like one is a women is one thing. Passing as a woman another thing. And socializing as a woman, whatever that means in your case, a third thing.
Swap the genders and I can tell you, I have trouble socializing with the third thing. As long as it's not beneath the gay scene (where I hung around all the time before transition - my basic problem is, how do straight people socialize? I almost never went out with them).
Quote from: MillieB on September 15, 2010, 04:21:19 PM
I think that we get judged by a completely unrealistic and frankly sexist viewpoint of femininity that cis women would never put up with.
Some of US don't put up with it either!
I make no attempt to conform to anyone else's ideas of how I "should" behave, not indeed do I take prisoners if someone makes the mistake of trying to judge me. That is partly why I fell out so comprehensively with my first gender shrink in 1976. He made the mistake of trying to impose his view of womanhood as a precondition of helping me. I told him that if he seriously expected me to become all frills and curls just to please him then I thought that he was crazier than I was.
Simply put, I have always told anyone who tries to judge me that how they may choose to view me is of no concern to me, since I cannot control their perceptions. How I perceive myself is the only thing of any importance to me. If I'm happy with me then any thing else is someone else's problem!
Oh and being slightly pedantic... (for which I apologise in advance)
Quote from: ggina on September 15, 2010, 05:03:46 PM
The problem is, that some people just want to have everything as fast as they can. Anybody can become a CD/DQ/whatever overnight but nobody can become a woman :)
To my mind no one "becomes" a woman. Someone either is one already, or they never will be.
The surgery and hormones just help others to see what was always there, but hidden by the physical stuff.
I was one of those who, when I finally did the medical process, broke records for speed... but of course that did follow a childhood which had been lived very openly as trans - and which had in a very real sense led me to that point as day follows night! So in anther way it wasn't so quick at all.
I suppose what I am trying to point out is that speed is rather a point of interpretation. Did I achieve SRS in about 6 months flat - or did it in fact take me 19 long years of gradual transition?
Seen from one perspective it was the former. I would argue however that that ignores the fact that I had been out since age 5... and so in fact it took me 19 years.
I should clarify:
Quote from: K8 on September 15, 2010, 09:39:03 AM
[I use the term "ordinary woman" to denote a woman who is accepted as a woman in mainstream society.]
To me, an "ordinary woman" is a woman who is seen as a woman, which includes Lady Gaga, KD Lang, Hillary Clinton, Queen Elizabeth II, etc. There is a huge range, and as transwomen we can be as we choose and probably fit into that range somewhere. I lived in a box most of my life and don't intend to move into another. Appearing to be a man, I couldn't be me. As a woman I can be who I am and still be a woman.
The original question was, I think, would you take the advice of a drag queen hooker performer who had no intention of getting SRS if you want to transition? Well, if you want to transition to being a drag queen hooker performer with no intention of getting SRS, perhaps you would. Otherwise, I think there are other role models available.
- Kate
Kudos to all of you for your great posts here.
This is a total education for me, reading all of your posts. Truly, I have nothing to add inasmuch as I'm way out of my depth here. Historically, I've always loathed and detested bars and/or clubs with a purple passion and have avoided them like the plague.
In my youth, I did go several times with friends who were way into it. They loved it. I did not. That's just me. By no means do I judge any of you here who enjoy bar and/or club life. To each their own. Live and let live. You do your thing; I'll do mine. We respect each other.
Don't get me wrong, I'd do the club scene with a trans-sister or trans-brother who wanted to check it out. I'm not a complete fuddy-duddy (That's debatable!). It's just not my thing though. Like, what the heck would I do there? Darned if I know. Probably get bored and annoyed. Yes, I'm a stick in the mud at bars and clubs. However, in my youth, I way enjoyed the hell out of the topless clubs in the rare times when friends dragged me along. Hey, I'm ALWAYS up for checking out hot babes. :D
The points several of you made about gay/trans clubs being good going-out places for transitioning t-people are very well made. I must agree with this. Truthfully, I need to do this, and one of our sisters here has most graciously offered to take me out to do just that. I will most certainly go to them with her. Moreover, I'll make a concerted effort to get into it and enjoy the experience. She's helped me so much that I way owe her that much. Also, since I identify as a lesbian, where would I find potential friends? Clubs? Maybe. LGBT functions? Doubt it.
Thanks for your posts. They're great. Learned a lot. :)
Yes - good points Lacey. I should perhaps confess at this point that I have never done bar culture either.
In fact the only time I went to one it was when I was already long postop and with Russell who was of course a gender shrink. They had invited him to go and talk to the clientele about the medical processes available. I went along as his plus one, kind of a cross between being his SO and his bodyguard. ;) (Inevitably I got lots of people buying free drinks for me... ;D) In fact now I think about it I think by then Alison was working as his PA so she probably went too - so he had two bodyguards! Dangerous places these bars you know. :laugh:
Going with Russell gave me a rather different take on the experience, which I must admit was a bit of an eye opener. I saw the vast range that exists in this world, and although there is no way that I would fit into that scene I would never sit judgement on it any more than I would let them try to make me one of them. We were different, and to be different is not wrong.
I have my doubts if transition, and the inevitable compromises involved would suit many of them. I felt that some of better looking ones might have become the type who ended up having one operation after another in search of the kind of cosmetic perfection that is simply not yet within the compass of our attainment but I could be wrong about that.
I think the thing is, its a big world, and the important thing is to figure out where YOU fit into it, then go there and don't worry about what someone else does. Let them have their space and be happy doing their thing, while you be happy in yours and doing yours. That's why, ultimately, I don't claim to be a pure-blood trans. Rather I see myself as occupying my own space which encompasses little bits of trans, intersex, Bisexual, cis woman, Androgyne etc etc. I'm a one off - just as you all are. So lets rest secure in that and not worry about others who are different.
Quote from: K8 on September 15, 2010, 06:05:02 PMThe original question was, I think, would you take the advice of a drag queen hooker performer who had no intention of getting SRS if you want to transition? Well, if you want to transition to being a drag queen hooker performer with no intention of getting SRS, perhaps you would. Otherwise, I think there are other role models available.
- Kate
Kate that is so true, and my surgeon Dr. Christine McGinn and your surgeon Dr. Marci Bowers are excellent examples of good, positive, role models. There are others, women and men who have transitioned completely and who live happy, fulfilling lives helping others. These are the people I look up to, and as I've said many times here, Dr. McGinn is totally my hero.
Btw, look for Dr. McGinn on the
Oprah Winfrey Show coming up on or around Sept. 29th.
Quote from: Britney_413 on September 13, 2010, 01:05:37 AM
What do women in general do? Do they go to gay bars every weekend in over-feminine outfits with excessive makeup on and do shows? Do they find prostitution and pornography interesting for their careers? No they don't. What do they do? They get up and go to work in the morning. They pay their bills and pay their taxes. They date and fall in love. They were jeans and a shirt to a gas station and something sexy for a night out on the town. They don't need excessive makeup, ultra-feminine clothes, and extremely large breasts, and men over every night to feel more like a woman. They don't need that because they are women, period. Well a true transwoman is simply a woman and should generally think, act, and be like any other woman in society not including the special challenges and alterations that come with transtition.
I am not quite sure how I would feel about the bars when I have a chance to go there. But ordinary life style is like it. I usually wear jeans and a shirt, and something sexy for a night in every one month. No excessive makeups and etc.
Some differences are:
1) I am biologically male
2) I exercise much more than ordinary women do
3) I wear makeup far less than ordinary women here do
4) I am sexually attracted to women
I have never met other TG face to face in my life time, but I wish to do it. I am a rather isolated TG, but mix well with other cisgender people.
Barbie~~
Jenny, thank you, you said what I am too semi literate to say.
K8, I take your point but I just felt that the OP raised an awful lot more questions than the one that you stated and I thought that it was worth discussing.
I don't do bar culture either, I don't even drink. I just have no problem with those who do, and as regards role models, I've got loads, trans women, trans men, cis women/men, I just go for those that I admire.
As far as the career goes, I'm a counsellor and transsexual so gender therapy interests me. But only because I'd make a lousy pole dancer! :laugh:
@ rejennyrated:
Jen, you've done it again: Wiser words were never spoken. I whole-heartedly agree, sis! :D
@ barbie:
Barb, we have many similarities in outlook. Judging by your photo, we look much alike, physique-wise. I appear very much like you do in your avatar photo back-portrait view here.
@ Sandy:
Okay, 'fess up, Sandy. Was Dr. McGinn your surgeon? You're lucky if she was! ;)
@ Everyone:
Live and let live. I'm a self-confessed and self-professed nerd who is altogether and thoroughly content in my nerdom. Because of that, many people do not and will not like me much. That's fine. I like them anyway. To each their own. Peace to all. ;)
Quote from: FairyGirl on January 26, 1974, 03:37:13 PM
Btw, look for Dr. McGinn on the Oprah Winfrey Show coming up on or around Sept. 29th.
Let me know when that is I'll set my DVR!
-Sandy(she's my hero too!)
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Oh and being slightly pedantic... (for which I apologise in advance)
To my mind no one "becomes" a woman. Someone either is one already, or they never will be.
accepted :) You are absolutely right of course, but I was trying to point at people who think this is possible, they just put on some heels and a dress and they're there. It's okay, no problem with it, but their definition of
woman is different from ours and one is hard pressed to find any common ground between the two.
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I would argue however that that ignores the fact that I had been out since age 5... and so in fact it took me 19 years.
I'd rather stick to the 6 months, it sounds much more bearable :)
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To each their own. Live and let live. You do your thing; I'll do mine. We respect each other.
I've never met any of those people we're talking about here so I don't really care what they're up to; they can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt my territory. I guess some call this respect in the civilized world :)
g
Quote from: LaceyLynne on September 16, 2010, 02:18:16 PM
@ Sandy:
Okay, 'fess up, Sandy. Was Dr. McGinn your surgeon? You're lucky if she was! ;)
Lacey:
Yes, the good doctor, McGinn was my surgeon. I was her fifth patient that she had as an independent surgeon. She is marvelous! A witty and dedicated woman who feels she has the best job in the world because she gets to help so many.
And yes, I do feel very lucky!
-Sandy(proud girl number 5!)
Quote from: FairyGirl on September 16, 2010, 09:12:12 AM
Btw, look for Dr. McGinn on the Oprah Winfrey Show coming up on or around Sept. 29th.
I've scanned Oprah's and Dr. McGinn's sites, but I haven't found any mention of Dr. McGinn making an appearance any time soon.
So if anyone has any information let me know ASAP!
Thanks!
-Sandy
Just out of curiosity, what's the average education level of these people who identify as transsexual and also as CD/TV/DQ? How much time do they spend on the internet? Who are their friends? What culture do they come from? How much did their families equip them to deal with the world, and what kind of support networks do they have?
It would seem that a lot of these women act like that because they think they're expected to act like that. I know cisgender women who act just like that. Meaning, sex is their livelihood, so they'll abuse their body and mind and spend their lives miserable, pretending to be people they're not. If such women could grow penises, some of them might would consider it even if they subconsciously hate the concept, because they feel they have to put their job above everything else.
In addition to feeling they need to do it for sex work, some of these people really just might not know much about transsexualism, transvestisim, crossdressing, performing in drag, being genderqueer or androgyne or bigender, or that there's a difference. I mean, I have an M.A. in history and am transsexual, and I didn't know all the categories until recently, and even though I consciously knew it wasn't true, subconsciously I had internalized "transsexual = tranvestite so I couldn't possibly be transsexual, right? I don't even care about clothes all that much." Not to sound arrogant, but I've actually studied LGBT issues academically a little bit, and I didn't even know all this. I imagine that a trans girl raised in poverty by an abusive family and then kicked out on the streets when she was sixteen might just have a hard time understanding if she's really trans or if she's something else.
Also, with the cisgender women like this I know, there's often a lot of mental illness and/or drug addiction involved, and it heavily impairs their judgement. Some of them honestly are just greedy people who knowingly engage in risky behavior, but most really don't seem to know any better, or are so depressed and screwed up that they lack the ability to avoid it, or are actually not in complete touch with reality and haven't been diagnosed or can't get the medicine they need.
So, basically, a lot of these people are ignorant and screwed up, but it's not necessarily their fault. When you're surrounded by screwed up people, it's hard to keep things in perspective, even if you have every educational advantage in the world and no severe mental illness and don't need to do sex work. If you actually are poorly educated, severely mentally ill without treatment, and desperate for money, it's even harder to think about things that many educated, middle-class trans people are focused on.
(Similar issue: a lot of homeless gay people aren't exactly concerned with the right to marry or some offensive stereotypes on Desperate Housewives.)
Quote from: Sandy on September 17, 2010, 02:30:20 PM
Lacey:
Yes, the good doctor, McGinn was my surgeon. I was her fifth patient that she had as an independent surgeon. She is marvelous! A witty and dedicated woman who feels she has the best job in the world because she gets to help so many.
And yes, I do feel very lucky!
-Sandy(proud girl number 5!)
Sandy:
That is AMAZING! ::)
Originally, I was leaning in the direction of choosing Marci Bowers; however, I recently researched and found photographs of "finished products" of several of the top SRS/GRS M-T-F surgeons online. Some of Marci's work left me more than a little ambivalent about her work. Don't get me wrong: I think she's an amazing person.
Toby Meltzer's work really impressed me. Some of his "finished products" were moreorless indiscernable to the untutored eye from the vulvae of natal females. Amazing artistry! I'm leaning toward selecting him; however, he has a long waiting period and does not accept insurance payments. Both are big bummers, of course. Still, his work is sheer artistry from what I've seen of it.
HOWEVER, your personal testimonial lauding the Good Doctor McGinn weighs VERY heavily in favor of my choosing her to do my SRS/GRS in the event that I actually have it done, and THAT'S the plain truth. :D
Finances, of course, are a major factor affecting the overall decision. Also, the idea of the preop pelvic-area electrolysis scares the livin' bejesus out of me! :-\