Today I went to the supermarket for jargon, unusually in this instance however I encountered another, what I believe to be a trans-woman.
I will be honest They didn't pass and when I saw them I felt sympathy for there situation, They looked alot older than me in there 50's they wore a pink coat with a white hood, female jeans and raised heel shoes casual winter wear they wore earrings and had grown out hairstyle it was unstyled sort of shaggy look the look you have if you grow your hair out for a year, They had slight male pattern baldness thinning around the back slightly. and were decidedly taller and larger than me probably standing 6'3 to my 5'7 despite there impending size they seemed sullen stooped over. There facial hair was decidedly patchy consistent with laser treatments or several hours in the electro chair.
I don't know what it was but part of me wanted to go up and talk to them but it didn't seem appropriate I thought about it but I was aware that roles reversed I might be abit upset and hurt if someone approached me and started talking because they'd read me as trans, Second to that I'd be starting a conversation with a stranger doing there shopping about a personal topic which is about as rude they come...
But on the other hand I was feeling kinda isolated myself and seeing them did remind me of where I was 6 months ago. And I wanted to say supportive things to them to push them on, Especially when I saw them walk upto the female jewelry section but then look around nervously and scamper off, evidently I'd found myself stalking them from afar. After awhile I realized how creepy I was behaving, I just gave up but as I gave up I walked past them I just gave them a friendly smile and a little wave, to which they responded with a head nod to a stranger who seemed unusually friendly.
Who knows if they read me or not, *shrug*
Has anyone else found themselves behaving oddly in the way I did... I dunno what I was doing, I can only guess I was inappropriately projecting my experience onto them, And also just swelled with unasked pity for how tricky there situation must have been in comparison to mine.
On the plus side tho I was having an ugly feeling day and seeing them made me feel abit better in a strange way.
I was in a similar situation once. A transgirl got onto a bus I was on and sat near me, and I just felt this urge to talk to her. She was really nice though and we had small talk about the weather.
It was weird, at first you think you're trying to talk to them for their sake, but I realized later that it was really for my own sake. I don't see many trans people around here (or at least people I can read as trans). I hope I didn't come off as too creepy!
A trans-woman checked me out at home depot once. I didn't know whether or not it'd be rude to say anything, or whether she was passing to everyone else. I decided to just be extra nice and smile at her. I really hope I didn't freak her out.
there needs to be some sort of trans code, a sign of acnowledgement that you can show to another trans person when you see them which means.. 'hey, I'm trans, I think you are too, rock on!"
ive seen someone i thought was trans as well, they looked male, and looked like they had a binder on, only thing female about them was their name tag and voice (cashier) I wanted to say something, but it seemed rude, if they WERE trans, they would think they didnt pass, and if they werent trans.. they would be offended that they i though tthey were.
thats why we need a signal/gesture.. something slight, you can do it to them and if they dont do it back.. no harm done! lol
We are basically thin on the ground so it's not as if this meeting others is going to be a regular event but on the odd occasion when I have thought another person may have been something trans I will sometimes catch their eye, give a little smile and a Hi just to acknowledge them as an individual among all the other people.
But at the moment I can't remember ever having a conversation with a stranger TS while out shopping or such.
Quote from: Elijah on November 06, 2010, 03:51:20 AM
there needs to be some sort of trans code, a sign of acnowledgement that you can show to another trans person when you see them which means.. 'hey, I'm trans, I think you are too, rock on!"
ive seen someone i thought was trans as well, they looked male, and looked like they had a binder on, only thing female about them was their name tag and voice (cashier) I wanted to say something, but it seemed rude, if they WERE trans, they would think they didnt pass, and if they werent trans.. they would be offended that they i though tthey were.
thats why we need a signal/gesture.. something slight, you can do it to them and if they dont do it back.. no harm done! lol
Some kind of funny handshake like the illuminati :laugh:
Nah! All you need is Alison's famous tee shirt which listed all her surgeons and stylists on the front:
Tits by Porter
Vag by Dalrymple
Hair By Raoul
Legs By Alison
and on the back it said:
PS I'm TS!
Only trouble is it takes some real courage to wear...
he he.
Trust you two...and knowing the pair of you I bet anyone who saw it would think it was ironic. :laugh:
Exactly! ;D Which is in a nutshell what most of the stealth bandits amongst us fail to understand the power of.
If you try to conceal something people often invest huge amounts of effort digging the dirt on you in order to out you. On the other hand if you do something like this those same people often waste no time in rubbishing your claim and trying to prove that you really are just an ordinary girl. :laugh:
I jest of course, but applied with a bit more subtlety I have proved on many occasions that it does actually work.
But back on topic as regards mutual recognition I usually do try and talk to such people but I will leave it to them to decide whether to go overt or not.
I've only seen about two or three others that I know of, outside of the few meets I have attended.
One was in the workplace. She's well known - she transitioned on the job many years ago. She didn't clock me, and I'm not about to kill my career by outing myself. I had a small moment of concern that one transsexual may have some weird ability to detect another - but that was unfounded. She looked past me the same as she looked past the rest of my cis-male coworkers. Absolutely no hint of recognition, no weird look, no head nod, no double take, nothing.
Remember folks - Just because you clock them, does not mean they automatically clock you!
If you do approach to offer your support, be aware that anything you say may be taken from the context of being said by a cis-person.
The others were in the waiting room of my endo's office - but I don't really think that counts :laugh:.
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 06, 2010, 05:46:14 AM
Exactly! ;D Which is in a nutshell what most of the stealth bandits amongst us fail to understand the power of.
If you try to conceal something people often invest huge amounts of effort digging the dirt on you in order to out you. On the other hand if you do something like this those same people often waste no time in rubbishing your claim and trying to prove that you really are just an ordinary girl. :laugh:
Some years ago I saw a woman in Memphis. She was dressed better than average and was wearing a scarf even though it was hot. I was very curious to try to figure out if she was trans but tried not to stare. Still, I'm sure she realized I was more interested in her than in other people. I'm embarassed to even admit I behaved that way, but it brought home Jenny's point. If you try to disguise yourself, people will be curious. If you dress and act like everyone else, comfortable in who you are (or at least pretend you are comfortable), people won't pay much attention.
For a signal of recognition, how about grabbing our crotch, making a snipping motion and then a thumbs up? >:-)
- Kate
Pre transition I never noticed the trans folk in society.
Now I notice them like instantly. Sort of 'trandar' I guess.
Every single time I have a deep desire to go talk to them but I do not. I would not like being clocked in public and I can not imagine they would either.
Quote from: K8 on November 06, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
For a signal of recognition, how about grabbing our crotch, making a snipping motion and then a thumbs up? >:-)
- Kate
Am I a nerd for actually trying that out and deciding it was kinda cool?
Quote from: Aegir on November 06, 2010, 09:14:08 AM
Am I a nerd for actually trying that out and deciding it was kinda cool?
I kind of envisioned something like this, except a "snip,snip" motion instead of a high five motion:
Clone High - High Five (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp3T0nGAu0Q#)
If someone has read me in public and they want to support me, the best way for them to support me is to treat me as they would any other female and to stand up for me if anyone else treats me bad for being trans.
In other words, if you see me in public and you read me, please do not say hi just because you have read me. :)
Quote from: K8 on November 06, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
For a signal of recognition, how about grabbing our crotch, making a snipping motion and then a thumbs up? >:-)
- Kate
I have visions of something along these lines. No crotch grabbing though :laugh:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4037%2F5152633698_7d0530161a_z.jpg&hash=99b855dbf243733895323eddbf733ae417cf990b)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.static.flickr.com%2F1254%2F5152024977_ba3afd84b6_z.jpg&hash=7e778f06922dbd2ee3388d7e88bacbd3dc12c87c)
Usually when I see someone who may look like an unpassable trans women I usually assume that she is a masculine cis woman. Given how rare trans people are, I would say more often than not, that is the case.
Here in San Francisco, I see gender-variant people all the time. But with all of the gender spectrum represented, it's impossible to tell who's what just by looking at them. I don't happen to know anyone who's transsexual and is open about it, but that's probably because I don't hang out in the LGBT scene. I know people through music, work, my neighborhood, and the local bar. Really a pretty eclectic group of people. I know a few of people who might be trans, but I would never say anything about it. It's none of my business.
If I met someone who I knew was trans, I might talk to them about it, but it would depend on the person and how comfortable I was around them. I'd almost definitely talk to an FTM, especially a gay FTM, because we'd have that in common, and I've never met an FTM before (well, chances are I have, but I mean someone who I knew to be FTM). I'm shy around girls, though, so I'd be less likely to talk to an MTF about something so personal.
I agree, a sign is a great idea! Thing is, that I think as a trans person we're a little better than the average person at picking out other trans people. When you have spent your whole life obsessing over these characteristics that make you appear the sex you don't feel you are it's a bit easier to notice them on other people too who might have the same struggles as you.
I should also add that my wife and even my sister has now gotten better at spotting trans people since I came out to her less than a year ago, she just pays more attention now. But I'm quite encouraged when we're in the store and my wife interacts with someone who I'm sure is trans and she doesn't notice. It gives me hope. :)
I totally know this feeling though of seeing someone and wanting to encourage them, it also gives me courage to see them. I've never gone out in girl mode though so I'd just be this kinda femme guy saying hello to them. Awkward, and I don't want them to feel like they don't pass - because a lot of the time they totally do pass. I'm just hypersensitive to it.
Anyway. How about something subtle like just sign-language for the letter "T"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sign_language_T.svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sign_language_T.svg)
If not that then how about this? ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute) (I kid, I kid!)
You want a way of identifying yourself?
Someone has this already covered.
This is just one of many diferant artists making similar items.
http://ayor-jewelry.com/proddetail.php?prod=PDP-TG (http://ayor-jewelry.com/proddetail.php?prod=PDP-TG)
Wear the trans symbol if you want to be identifyable by others.
You know what they say about assuming...and well...I guess stereotyping might also apply.
I'm not a fan of the "transgender pride" symbol and think it REALLY needs to be revised, buuut I think a "Legalize Trans" T-shirt is a good idea.
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 06, 2010, 05:02:50 AM
and on the back it said:
PS I'm TS!
Only trouble is it takes some real courage to wear...
I'd wear a shirt that had that on the back. Only another trans person would get it!
And if any one asked what it meant I would have the opportunity to spread the word that we all aren't Jerry Springer types.
-Sandy
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 06, 2010, 05:02:50 AM
Nah! All you need is Alison's famous tee shirt which listed all her surgeons and stylists on the front:
Tits by Porter
Vag by Dalrymple
Hair By Raoul
Legs By Alison
and on the back it said:
PS I'm TS!
Only trouble is it takes some real courage to wear...
Simply brilliant, and I love it! :D Rock ON, you two! :D
Hi Pebbles! I have a story like the one you had from today actually... I was working at my job and encountered another transwoman. At my work, people are extremely cynical towards the transcommunity, and I have heard them say deploring comments before. Anyway, my "radar" went off when I saw her, and fortunately no one at the store clocked her but me. In some ways when I saw her I actually felt an enormous amount of pride. I am not out yet, so seeing someone stick up for who they are inside and present it to the world is a trait I admire. I had seen her in the store before, but this time when she came in it seems she must of had breast augmentation between the last time I had seen her (no one in there 40s goes from an A cup to at least a D in a couple of months). I actually wanted to go up and say something to her; just to tell her I look up to her courage. But, I realize as I am presenting as male it would have been extremely awkward. I let her pass by without the truth I wanted to say to her and just said, "Hi, welcome to the store ***" Anyways, it is always an interesting, sometimes humbling like in my case, encounter when meeting another sister/ brother.
I should also mention that I met a woman who I thought was a trans woman but turned out to not be. It was bad news bears for sure.
I had an occasion where I ran across another trans person in the local grocery store.
My first impulse was to run up to her and ask how things have been going and if she live in the area and did she want to get together and stuff.
Then I thought about how I would feel if someone came up to me in the grocery store and said that same thing to me.
I would be abashed and slightly offended, and really not in the mood to associate with them. I would have considered it rude. Not because I am stealth, which I am not, but because it really isn't something I think really needs a public display about. I don't wear a sign around my neck, but I also don't make a big deal of it, and I certainly wouldn't want it brought up in the middle of a busy isle at the store!
Also, how to breach the subject...
"Hi! I can see that you are a transsexual! I am too! Wanna go get some coffee and chat?"
I would feel that if that had been said to me that I would feel like I did something that got me read. I would feel a bit queasy and embarrassed.
So instead of talking to her, I passed her in the isle and reached around her while she stood to look at some canned goods and looked her right in the eye, smiled, and said "Excuse me", grabbed something looked at her again, smiled, and said "Thank you". She simply nodded and went back to looking for something on the shelf.
There was no flash of recognition, not "that look", nothing.
At which point I simply walked away. If she did not read me, but I read her, I would have felt very bad making the first contact.
Perhaps, if I meet her again, we can talk in the parking lot...
-Sandy
Similar to Sandy's experience...
When I've noticed the few trans women I've seen I just smile the same as I do with anyone... The only time I've said anything it was just common courtesy because I needed to get down an isle at the store... I just said "Hi... Excuse me" same as I would anyone
Truly, the urge to run right over and talk to them is really really strong but I know I don't dare do that... I would freak if someone did that to me
In my past, there was a time when about 20 - 30 % oft the people around me were trans in some kind of way. Mostly not transitioned people, but people "feeling sometimes male sometimes female", "feeling like they were both", "feeling neither nor but being neutral" etc. It was'nt a fashion, it was 15 years ago and they did not have more concrete words for that, and it was really their gender identities, not some whatever being seen as cool. It was constant, most of them were neighbors of mine... Mostly living in the same house, we were 24 people there, most of us students. We just happened to have found one another and made friends. It was not within a "gender scene", but had just happened, a little nest in the province... Which made me believe for the next couple of years that being gender-variant in some way affected about 5 % of the population, and was absolutely normal, known and unspecular. However, after lots of funny and clueless reactions to my pre-transition coming outs I learned that no, it's not. ???
Well one of them was a non-outed transwoman. We had an affair later on and slept with one another, and well, I don't wanna go too much into details, but methought she really was trans as some body parts were okay to her being touched, others not... She never said openly she was trans, but complained openly about her male features and said she was happy to be called "XXX", the short form of her forename, as "at least, that's neutral". She often was called with female pronouns half-jokingly, half-seriously by her flatmates(as people around her sensed what was going on), and she never objected to it, but was happy about that and even said that, as "this fits better". And she complained about being mistaken for a gay guy all the time, as her body language was more than flaming. Flaming gays I knew very well as I used to be in the male gay scene then, but she was different. The only two guys from the gay scene I ever knew with a body language comparable to hers, well one of them said openly he's a transgender, a woman in a man's body, with body dysphoria etc., but he had decided to live as a gay guy, and the other one was flaming as hell and had serious hormonal problems, his body was very under-developed, I never asked him for details but would have loved to send him to shrinks to get that checked up. Me seemed, there was some intersex-stuff going on or testosterone did not work well, plus a non-male gender identity. I could "smell" that.
Well this transwoman neighbor behaved and thought like a girl, wore almost only unisex clothes (and openly stressed that fact!) and complained a lot when having to wear a cravat though she was conservative. Obviously did not feel at ease in her skin etc. A mirror image of me. Gosh. Sad she dumped me. I think she did not get along that I "read" her clearly. During the short time we were together, some of the other people in the house grinned at us as we made a weird impression, like the queerest straight couple you could imagine. The gender-variant people did not do that, they kind of knew what was going on with us, but were okay with it. However, she never denied or admitted openly that she was trans. But I'm sure she was a she.
Once I made the horrible mistake in front of a bunch of people - after a couple of drinks - to out her after she complained of being mistaken for a gay guy as she was not interested into guys: "You're a woman in your brain, so you cannot be gay, at best you could be lesbian, you're just like a transsexual, just like me, but you're the other way round, and you don't do anything with your body, just like me. We should change bodies, then we would be happy".
And she went like "Ooops" and got red all about her face. Afterwards, I felt like ->-bleeped-<- for having outed her like that. I was already out as "feeling mostly like a guy but in a female body" there, and the people at the table were our neighbours and they were used to the "gender variant" minority of our house. So I had no idea it might be a hassle for her. But she was not clearly out, she just made obvious hints all over the time, without saying anything clearly, in whatever words. So I probably forced the outing upon her without her okay. Ouch. I thought it was so so obvious from the hints she dropped all the time that I thought she was out anyway, but some of the people of the house did not really get that. The "gender variant" minority got it, the others didn't. And that was what I found out when we were all sitting at the table, me outing her. Ouch.
Another situation was about one month ago. I was in the tram, two Turkish women entered them, dressed the usual western style + kinda sexy (lots of Turkish women have that metropolitan style here). And my transdar is good. They sat around me and - one of them is clearly a transwoman, I thought, the other one I'm not sure but might well be. I looked at the hands, chins etc., all that stuff which gets transformed if testosterone does its work. Anyway, both had a great passing, clearly female way of moving etc., no one else in the tram raised an elbow. Then another Turkish woman, traditional muslim clothing, headscarf and boring grey gramma-style clothes, entered the tram and sat down near them, and they knew each other. And the "clear case" started having a conversation in Turkish with the other woman. In a tenor/bariton voice which had obviously been very well trained by logopedists. Holy moly, I thought, my transdar ist better than usual people's.
I don't understand any Turkish apart from a few words, so what I got from the conversation was a bit like:
"Yüsgüldarün yamislarün +(Name of my endocrinologist."
"Yagüldarin yüsürimalya +(Name of my endocrinologist)."
"Yürilmayun yusgürildayin (Address + Name of my endocrinologist)."
etc.
My endocrinologist is where all the trans people go. The other western-styled woman, who was maybe trans, just kept silent all the time. Maybe she was shy, or God knows what voice she had or thought she had. The oriental-style elder Turkish woman seemed cool with the topic all the way through. Wow.
I was close to outing myself. But I didn't do it. The clearly trans woman was probably out to the traditionally styled Turkish woman, but she might have felt pissed off being outed in the tram in front of all the passengers. Or being "clocked" even by her own folks. Plus neither her nor her "unclear" friend (they both later left the tram together and then went through the city together) had apparently clocked me, they just ignored me all the way long, I must have seemed to be some random teenage boy for them. Though I'm 35.
It was a weird situation, and I found it best to just keep silent there.
I wouldn't suggest outing anyone. Usually they want to keep control about their outings, be it pre/without, during or after transition. And no, we're not all friends just for being all trans.
I don't really understand the whole need to identify yourself as trans out in public. I never did the whole glbt scene and don't really have a lot of pride in the way I got to where I am. I'm not stealth, but I'm not out. For the most part my life is relatively "normal" and having something to identify me in a group that isn't normally socially accepted is not my cup of tea.
This doesn't mean I'm not willing to help people, but those are not in the public's eye.
Also, never out someone. It's usually embarrassing and potentially dangerous. Depending on the situation, it's also insulting. By coming around with a hunch, with 3rd hand information, with whatever tells that person that you do not see them as a man or woman. While this hasn't happened to me, it has happened to a friend who was deeply upset about it for a bit. If someone wants to tell you, they will.
I just came from an event that featured 2 performers who happened to be transsexual. A singer / guitar player and a comedian. The comedian mostly talked about being trans during her stand-up routine. She was pretty funny. I considered striking up a conversation with her and telling her I was trans too, but it didn't really seem appropriate because the event had another theme that everyone was focused on. Or at least that was my excuse to chicken out of talking to her. She seemed cool, but I just wasn't motivated to approach a total stranger and talk about TG stuff.
I went to a talk at the university that was promoted as Trans 101. The guy giving it was excellent, and I had a chance to talk to him afterward. I don't know that I identified myself specifically ("I am trans, too") but I'm sure I let him know or he could read me. (It was last year, and I don't remember exactly.) We had a nice chat. But I think that is very different than seeing someone at the grocery store you think might be trans.
I think if a stranger came up to me and said they thought I was trans, I would ask why they thought that - neither admitting nor denying it.
- Kate
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 06, 2010, 05:02:50 AM
Nah! All you need is Alison's famous tee shirt which listed all her surgeons and stylists on the front:
Tits by Porter
Vag by Dalrymple
Hair By Raoul
Legs By Alison
and on the back it said:
PS I'm TS!
Only trouble is it takes some real courage to wear...
This reminds me of a shirt a lesbian friend has. It says "Vaginas are Awesome" colored like the gay pride flag. She'll wear it with a rainbow belt, blue jeans, and shoes with rainbow laces.
How's that for pride.
Why not just ask them if they want a coffee?
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 06, 2010, 05:02:50 AM
PS I'm TS!
Only trouble is it takes some real courage to wear...
If anybody asked what TS meant just say Terrifically Sexy. (If you don't wish to explain :) )
I remember my support group had a rule that if we saw one another in public, we were not supposed to even acknowledge one another.
I've always refrained from doing anything like that over the years when I see a trans person in public, and I hope others will do me the same courtesy.
In my experience, most transitioned people get nervous around other transitioners in public and try to avoid them. I just think that's the way it is.
Yeah I definitely put myself in their shoes when this happens. Fine to make idle conversation but never to 'out' them or even 'out' yourself.
It's like when cis ppl walk up to you and say "You're so brave" or "you pass so well" ......well um thanks but if I passed so well how did you know?
I recently noticed a young guy at the local department store. The name tag he wears has a boys name on it. But there is so many cues that say to me that he is a ftm. When ever we go into that store I make it a point to be nice to that person, though he always looks like he's in a bad mood. I was there the other day alone and En femme. I found a little outfit I liked and decided I would buy it. I saw that he was working the check out counter, so I made sure I would be serviced by him. Even though the amount was small I decided I would pay with a credit card, to see his response. When he checked my card and asked to see my I.D. I never seen a smile so big on his face before. He didn't say anything but he is so much more smiley when we come in now.
Personally , If someone came up to me, as long as it was done nicely and privately. I would welcome the interaction.
Hugs Erocse
Quote from: glendagladwitch on November 15, 2010, 08:29:24 AM
I remember my support group had a rule that if we saw one another in public, we were not supposed to even acknowledge one another.
I've always refrained from doing anything like that over the years when I see a trans person in public, and I hope others will do me the same courtesy.
In my experience, most transitioned people get nervous around other transitioners in public and try to avoid them. I just think that's the way it is.
I can understand a rule about not disclosing how you might know eachother (to avoid outing eachother), but that's like saying I can't acknowledge knowing the people I go to church with in public for fear people might know they're Lutheran. I wasn't really planning on discussing our Lutheranness, just saying hello, etc. It just doesn't make sense to me...
As for people avoiding eachother, in my experience, its usually been the passable avoiding the unpassable for fear of guilt by association. Or rather, if I pass and you don''t, people might be more suspect of me becuase you don't pass and be more critical of my flaws.
Quote from: regan on November 15, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
I can understand a rule about not disclosing how you might know eachother (to avoid outing eachother), but that's like saying I can't acknowledge knowing the people I go to church with in public for fear people might know they're Lutheran. I wasn't really planning on discussing our Lutheranness, just saying hello, etc. It just doesn't make sense to me...
As for people avoiding eachother, in my experience, its usually been the passable avoiding the unpassable for fear of guilt by association. Or rather, if I pass and you don''t, people might be more suspect of me becuase you don't pass and be more critical of my flaws.
Although it is a crappy way to be I understand it.
Quote from: cynthialee on November 15, 2010, 11:05:54 AM
Although it is a crappy way to be I understand it.
The truth is that, given the chance, the unpassable of the two would have it the same way. Or rather, two moderately unpassable people are probably going to avoid the other person all the same thinking they are the more passable of the two. Its the same reason why some people choose to surround themselves with less attractive friends, so they in turn look better.
We're all vain about our appearance, its just human nature.
My gender therapist had a rule that SHE would not acknowledge us (read: clients) in public because there are lots of people who don't want anyone to know they go to a therapist. If you spoke to her first, then fine, but she would not seek you out or say hello unless you initiated it.
But there was never any rule for those of us in her group. In fact the group now socializes quite a bit in public.
Jay
A group I used to go to had this rule where it basically said if you see someone from there don't go "Hey your that gay person from the gay group!" Simply put don't out the other person and that's how I feel about the trans thing. Would I love to meet another trans person? Sure as long as they don't out me to everyone else.
As for acknowledging someone else I just make sure to smile and nod. I leave it up to them if they want to talk.
bye
I don't believe that being in a minority group automatically means that I am expected to associate with those of my group nor should others in that group assume inclusion in my social circle. I am in general a social and courteous person but too often people assume and expect familiarity where there is none. I am not deliberately stealth nor am I deliberately visibly trans. I simply am who I am and someone may know or not know and it is irrelevant.
Last night I pulled into a gas station to get a beer at nearly 2 am in a rough neighborhood (I was carrying weapons in case anyone is worried). When I was trying to get out of my car, the door opened to the car next to me preventing me from opening mine. A woman exited that vehicle and I immediately picked up on that she was trans due to the broad shoulders. Instead of showing courtesy she continued to stand there not paying attention. I had to open my door a few inches and say excuse me. She didn't pay attention and I had to say it louder in a much more male voice. She barely moved to the point where I had to be extremely close to her to get out of the car. My defensive alarms pretty much went off at this point (it is kind of suspicious behavior). She then says "Hey sister" in a way as if she knows me. Then she reaches toward me with her arm and I withdrew asking her "Excuse me, do I know you?" "Um, no. I'm (can't remember name). What's your name?" "Britney." She extended a hand and I shook it. Then she asked me if they would ID for alcohol and I said I don't know. She then says "C'mon, let's go check it out" as if we've been friends for years. There were several gangbanger-looking men standing around watching us but from a safe distance. She then started to give me a side hug as we were walking into the store. I withdrew again and said, "Look I'm sorry but I don't know you and I'm just here to get my beer and leave." She wasn't rude back but just ignored me at that point. As I'm heading into the doorway of the store, she turns to them and says "Hey boys" and then went into the store.
Personally I think I was rude but so was she. She didn't respect my space for starters and didn't respect my privacy either. Simply because we are both trans led her to assume that I'm automatically her acquaintance or friend. Not the case. I believe she was a prostitute due to her attire and the way she greeted those men. I cannot think of any normal woman or transwoman who would greet strange men at a convenience store late at night. As much as I like to be nice, you have to be careful. I didn't know who she was or what she was going to do. She could have just gotten out of prison, she could have started something stupid with the men in the parking lot putting me in danger, and she could have been planning on stealing or robbing that store. If I'm seen as someone friendly to her then I will be accused of being involved in the crime. There is an old and true saying, "Good fences make good neighbors." I think a smile, nod, and a friendly hello is good when we encounter another preson who may be trans. We may do the same to a non-trans person as well just out of courtesy. Anything more than that is violating boundaries.
bye
She didn't respect my space for starters and didn't respect my privacy either.
YOU ARE OUT IN PUBLIC! - there is no 'privacy' in a public situation, by definition. You are very confused about what those concepts really mean and how they apply to real life.
get a beer at nearly 2 am in a rough neighborhood
Because, as it turns out, nice neighborhoods are not selling beer right up until closing time, nor do the bars open first thing in the morning either. Want to find the most skid-row area of a town? Easy, just mapquest the location of all the bars that open at 6am, where most of them are concentrated, there you are.
I withdrew again and said, "Look I'm sorry but I don't know you and I'm just here to get my beer dope and leave."
FIFY. Anybody who is out in sketch areas, looking for beer at closing time is not looking for beer, they are looking for dope. It's just that their dope ain't smoked, and it's made by Anheuser-Busch.1
I cannot think of any normal woman or transwoman who would greet strange men at a convenience store late at night.
Whatever a 'normal transwoman' is. So, because she is there at closing time you assume she's a ho? Why not just assume she's another drunk looking for her dope fix before they close down the candy store for a few hours, or, pretty much: just like you are?
Anything more than that is violating boundaries.
I'm beginning to think that you might need to finish life at home in your spare time.
1. Why do you think the largest money contributers to anti-marijuana legalization efforts are beer companies, with A-B at the top of the list? It's for sure not because they are worried about your health.
Quote from: tekla on November 23, 2010, 09:18:03 AM
YOU ARE OUT IN PUBLIC! - there is no 'privacy' in a public situation, by definition. You are very confused about what those concepts really mean and how they apply to real life.
This is why I'm going to ask Phyllis Frye, brand spanking new out TG Texas Judge, to issue me a :police: permanent restraining order :police: against "The Public at Large."
None of you will be allowed to post within five posts of my posts. >:-)
No, actually there are laws regarding privacy and personal space. Some of those fall under harrassment and assault and disorderly conduct. You weren't there and have no business making assumptions about what I know or don't know about the neighborhood I was in. I don't care if you are in a nice church, a run-down-bar, or in a public street there are certain social/cultural expectations of personal space and privacy and some of these are backed up by laws. For instance, she was already way too close for my comfort level. I already withdrew when she tried to touch me the first time and withdrew a second time. No laws broken here but certainly very improper social behavior among strangers. Had I actually asked her to give me more space and not touch me and she did not obey my request, I could have had her arrested for disorderly conduct and/or assault. As to privacy laws it is true that in a public space you can't guarantee that no one will see you or converse with you but you still have the right to refuse a social interaction. If she had started asking me personal questions and I told her I wasn't interested and walked away had she continued to bother me I could have had her arrested for harrassment and disorderly conduct. I did explain to her that I was just getting my beer and leaving indicating that I was not interested in any further social interactions. I am not required to socialize with someone or continue to have to listen to them simply because I'm in a public space. If you ask someone to leave you alone and they don't stop, it is criminal harrassment.
Anyway, this brings me to another topic. Both trans people and the non-trans public often do not respect the privacy of trans person's bodies both socially and physically. Time and time again another trans person or non-trans person who knows I'm trans will immediately come out and ask me inappropriate personal questions such as if I'm pre-op, post-op, had breast augmentation, am on hormones, plan on going all the way, etc. They assume that such questions are normal and appropriate. Unless from a trusted friend or solid acquaintance, they are not appropriate questions. Imagine yourself walking up to a genetic woman and asking her if she recently had her period, if she is still fertile, if she is post menopause, has had her hystorectomy, etc. Imagine walking up to a man and asking about the size of his penis, if he is fully functional, if he is taking medication for erectile dysfunction, etc. Such questions would be so inappropriate you would probably be fired if you asked them in a workplace, you'd be asked to leave public places, and may even be arrested if done to strangers on a public street for harrassment. There are things that are simply not acceptable but sadly when it comes to trans people the rules don't apply.
The worst are outright physical assaults and sexual assaults which again are seen as acceptable against trans people while never tolerated against a non-trans person. Sadly these are done against trans people often by other trans people. I have had plenty of trans people go right for my breasts to see if they are real without asking. I've had them ask to see my genitals and even go for them. If you went up to a genetic woman and did that you would be arrested.
So yes, trans people have a right to a certain level of personal privacy and personal space not only ethically but legally. And any person on this board who thinks otherwise is not trans-supportive at all and will be reported. I'm sick and f'ing tired of being treated like a freak often by my own kind. Just because I am trans does not give you the right to ask about my sexual organs or touch them nor does it give you the right to be in my company. Period.
Quote from: Britney_413 on November 23, 2010, 02:18:07 AM
She then says "Hey sister" in a way as if she knows me. Then she reaches toward me with her arm and I withdrew asking her "Excuse me, do I know you?" "Um, no. I'm (can't remember name). What's your name?" "Britney." She extended a hand and I shook it. Then she asked me if they would ID for alcohol and I said I don't know. She then says "C'mon, let's go check it out" as if we've been friends for years.
Keep in mind that women have different personal space boundaries regarding men and women. Whether trans or not, she read you as a fellow sister. Also, sounds like alcohol was involved, thus changing ways in which people interact.
Z
Quote from: tekla on November 23, 2010, 09:18:03 AM
FIFY. Anybody who is out in sketch areas, looking for beer at closing time is not looking for beer, they are looking for dope. It's just that their dope ain't smoked, and it's made by Anheuser-Busch.
Wow, really? I used to go downtown (definitely not a high-class area) around 1:30 a.m. to watch all-night movies (usually regular R movies but occasionally some X), have a couple of slices, and occasionally indulge in a beer.
Oh, yeah, forgot to say that I was a night owl, and I worked the night shift. So at the same time of the night, I would also shop for groceries, run my laundry at a 24-hour laundromat in a "sketchy" area, and even go to the beach.
I've seen a few in public, and a few live in my apartment building. They do no pass, nor seem to be overtly trying, but everyone seems to like their bubbly personalities including myself.
Prob the most emotional time for me on that trip was when a young post FFS girl asked me if I have had FFS in the past. But even with all the swelling I could see her nearly break down when I replied solemn "no". Makes me guilty for not white lying a yes to this day as I know she was likely very emotional from the whole ordeal, I'm sure she must be very beautiful now.
What the hell? How is this even so damn complicated? Ever heard of the Golden Rule?
If you're trans and you see me in public and you don't already know me, leave me the hell alone. Don't look at me, don't smile at me, don't say "hi" to me, don't "try to treat me extra-special" to show some warped kind of "solidarity." Just let me go on living my life.
When strangers make it clear that they have clocked me, well I'm not a cutter, but at times like those I can understand the appeal of going home to a nice cold razor blade. Instead I just go home and scowl at every feature that genders me male in other people's eyes and cry in my beer for a while.
Seriously, back the hell off.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 03, 2010, 04:04:51 AM
What the hell? How is this even so damn complicated? Ever heard of the Golden Rule?
If you're trans and you see me in public and you don't already know me, leave me the hell alone. Don't look at me, don't smile at me, don't say "hi" to me, don't "try to treat me extra-special" to show some warped kind of "solidarity." Just let me go on living my life.
When strangers make it clear that they have clocked me, well I'm not a cutter, but at times like those I can understand the appeal of going home to a nice cold razor blade. Instead I just go home and scowl at every feature that genders me male in other people's eyes and cry in my beer for a while.
Seriously, back the hell off.
That is primarily one of the reasons why I would not approach another trans person in public. It's ALWAYS disheartening to get clocked. No matter who did it.
If we meet somewhere like a trans meeting, that's different, but in public, no.
-Sandy
It's not only disheartening, it's also misleading. The fact that trans people can read one another doesn't speak very well to how someone is passing.
Just because you can read someone, doesn't mean that most people can. So not only might it make the other person feel bad, it also may make them think they don't pass as well as they do.
Oddly enough, I don't know if I've met/noticed any other trans people. Then again, I'm from a very liberal town where a good number of people just kinda dress how they like, so it's possible that I have and never noticed. I'm pretty darned social and would probably want to chat if I did, but I'm sure it'd be possible to have a decent conversation without mentioning that I read them as trans.
I have been thinking about making and wearing a button from the trans pride flag colors. (I feel the symbol is a bit too much for me at this point).
My thought is that someone might see it some day and know that they are not alone.
Quote from: bearded on December 07, 2010, 04:46:15 PM
I have been thinking about making and wearing a button from the trans pride flag colors. (I feel the symbol is a bit too much for me at this point).
My thought is that someone might see it some day and know that they are not alone.
That may be good for two reasons:
A) As mentioned... To let other trans people know they are not alone... So many of us feel alone and isolated at times
B) To give a signal that "Hey... you can talk to me"... I can just imagine how many folks like me who live in a rather isolated area and are dieing to have other trans people to talk to... Maybe not at the place they meet (grocery store... etc.) But maybe exchange info. and get together later
Quote from: Sean on December 03, 2010, 09:15:45 AM
It's not only disheartening, it's also misleading. The fact that trans people can read one another doesn't speak very well to how someone is passing.
Just because you can read someone, doesn't mean that most people can. So not only might it make the other person feel bad, it also may make them think they don't pass as well as they do.
That, and what if you were wrong and the person you approached turned out to be cis?
Either way, it would probably be take as an insult.
Quote from: Alexmakenoise on December 07, 2010, 07:21:31 PM
That, and what if you were wrong and the person you approached turned out to be cis?
Either way, it would probably be take as an insult.
I really hate when people say this, however true it might be, because it pretty much suggests that to be visibly gender variant is equivalent to being hideous. I've even heard people say, in a misled attempt to be supportive, "What if she's not trans, but just a really ugly woman?"
>:( >:( >:(
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 08, 2010, 01:36:57 AM
I really hate when people say this, however true it might be, because it pretty much suggests that to be visibly gender variant is equivalent to being hideous. I've even heard people say, in a misled attempt to be supportive, "What if she's not trans, but just a really ugly woman?"
>:( >:( >:(
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Really, I just meant to point out that when you approach a stranger about something personal, it is often taken as an insult, for many different reasons.
I often think I have phenominal trans-dar, but I've never made an attempt to check and see. I saw a girl on the bus once that I was sure was trans. I though about asking her if she knew who Dr. Harry Benjamin was.
Quote from: Alexmakenoise on December 08, 2010, 10:48:20 AM
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Really, I just meant to point out that when you approach a stranger about something personal, it is often taken as an insult, for many different reasons.
What you said was totally fine. As I said (or at least grudgingly tried to suggest), is that I think you are absolutely correct. the problem is that I'm not very happy with the state of the world that leads to your statement being correct. I think a lot of the reason that trans people are seen as ugly (though not all the reason) has to do with arbitrary social standards regarding what is beautiful, especially for women. When people say that, one of the effects (however unintentional) is often that it perpetuates and reinforces those standards.
Considering the context, I don't think that applies in this case, or if it does, then only a little. But it reminded me of other situations where what I'm describing was clearly happening, and I think it's worth pointing out in general. So what you said is valid, but I wish there were a way to say it that didn't have that kind of baggage attached to it.
I think you make a good point here when you speak more generally -- it's really just a matter of common courtesy not to ask strangers about things that are likely none of your business, because you never know what can of worms you're opening when you do. Maybe something along those lines is a better way to think about the issue.
I don't know. You're fine. Sometimes the whole trans experience just kind of sucks. :-\
Quote from: Virginia Marie on December 07, 2010, 06:43:45 PM
That may be good for two reasons:
A) As mentioned... To let other trans people know they are not alone... So many of us feel alone and isolated at times
B) To give a signal that "Hey... you can talk to me"... I can just imagine how many folks like me who live in a rather isolated area and are dieing to have other trans people to talk to... Maybe not at the place they meet (grocery store... etc.) But maybe exchange info. and get together later
I would need something more in common with someone then just being trans to want to make plans to "get together later". Even being trans who's to say we have anything in common? Or that I really care to discuss my personal life with someone else? Maybe I have a support network that I can count on, a great group of friends and would much rather talk about anything then what's between my legs.
Try being friends with me becuase I'm me, not becuase I'm transgender.
I have no trouble believing that most trans persons are otherwise normal, middle of the road, average - you know, boring. In that, being trans is not just the most interesting thing about you, it's pretty much the only interesting thing about you.
Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2010, 02:02:58 PM
I have no trouble believing that most trans persons are otherwise normal, middle of the road, average - you know, boring. In that, being trans is not just the most interesting thing about you, it's pretty much the only interesting thing about you.
I've always been told I was an attention whore. :)
What I mean by get together is maybe get a coffee and talk awhile... Maybe we'd become friends, maybe not and most likely we wouldn't be talking about our genitals anyway
Also it wouldn't be just because someone is a trans person
I know that maybe it's a foreign concept to some folks... But I'm one of those people who likes making friends
Quote from: Virginia Marie on December 09, 2010, 02:14:48 PM
What I mean by get together is maybe get a coffee and talk awhile... Maybe we'd become friends, maybe not and most likely we wouldn't be talking about our genitals anyway
Also it wouldn't be just because someone is a trans person
I know that maybe it's a foreign concept to some folks... But I'm one of those people who likes making friends
I'm not opposed to making friends, but you proposed wearing a pin so we would be able to identify ourselves at the grocery store. Actually the first problem I see with that is how long before its fairly common knowledge that that particular pin signifies me as transgendered. Just how many people are going to wear it after that?
Back to your suggestion, why should my grocery store purchases suggest we have anything in common worth forming a friendship over - more so then anyother person buying hamburger buns?
Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2010, 02:02:58 PM
I have no trouble believing that most trans persons are otherwise normal, middle of the road, average - you know, boring. In that, being trans is not just the most interesting thing about you, it's pretty much the only interesting thing about you.
I bit like drug bores. I ****ing hate drug bores.
I really can do without hearing how wasted you were at some party somewhere.
Quote from: regan on December 09, 2010, 02:25:52 PM
I'm not opposed to making friends, but you proposed wearing a pin so we would be able to identify ourselves at the grocery store. Actually the first problem I see with that is how long before its fairly common knowledge that that particular pin signifies me as transgendered. Just how many people are going to wear it after that?
Back to your suggestion, why should my grocery store purchases suggest we have anything in common worth forming a friendship over - more so then anyother person buying hamburger buns?
Actually I didn't propose the idea and it doesn't really matter where you meet someone
Anyway, I think your reading too much into it and I have other things to do besides play nit pick...
Have a nice day
Quote from: Helena on December 09, 2010, 02:29:29 PM
I bit like drug bores. I ****ing hate drug bores.
I really can do without hearing how wasted you were at some party somewhere.
I should tell you about this party I was at...I was so wasted... ;D
Sorry couldn't resist... :)
The people who go to those parties are boring, the people who run them have much better stories.
Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2010, 02:44:57 PM
The people who go to those parties are boring, the people who run them have much better stories.
If I've learned one thing, the party you didn't go to was the party of the century.
The best party is you, your lover, a bottle of wine and a beach with no one else on it.
I usually think heightened transdar among Ts is a myth. But I recently realized that someone I had met and spoken with several times in the past was actually FTM. I don't think anyone else has a clue, but it suddenly became apparent to me. It was kind of weird, like a bolt out of the blue.
I didn't say anything to him about it, of course. I'm sure he read me long ago, and didn't say anything either. It actually explains why he and his wife seem reluctant to come to gatherings that me and my husband are going to be at. I was wondering why it seemed like they were avoiding us.
I can see both sides of this. On one hand I really like the idea of meeting other trans people who are just going about their life like me, and not necessarily in a group therapy setting or whatever. On the other hand I think a part of me would sink in being read by someone.
I think maybe one way to at least make initial contact is just to compliment them about something. Like, "I really like your hair" or something appropriate to them. See if they read me or if we make any connection. Otherwise, maybe it isn't meant to be.
Quote from: Madelyn on December 10, 2010, 07:01:34 PM
I can see both sides of this. On one hand I really like the idea of meeting other trans people who are just going about their life like me, and not necessarily in a group therapy setting or whatever. On the other hand I think a part of me would sink in being read by someone.
I think maybe one way to at least make initial contact is just to compliment them about something. Like, "I really like your hair" or something appropriate to them. See if they read me or if we make any connection. Otherwise, maybe it isn't meant to be.
I like this. I met a (GG) woman like this. We had coffee together, realized we didn't have much in common, and haven't gotten together again. I see her around town once in a while. We have a connection because of the initial contact, and say hi when we see each other, but we didn't become friends.
- Kate
Quote from: Madelyn on December 10, 2010, 07:01:34 PM
I can see both sides of this. On one hand I really like the idea of meeting other trans people who are just going about their life like me, and not necessarily in a group therapy setting or whatever. On the other hand I think a part of me would sink in being read by someone.
I think maybe one way to at least make initial contact is just to compliment them about something. Like, "I really like your hair" or something appropriate to them. See if they read me or if we make any connection. Otherwise, maybe it isn't meant to be.
What happens if you read your new best friend as trans, you bond over that and it turns out they're not? How does that conversation go "Surgeon, what do you mean who was my Surgeon? OMG"
Answering the original post:
The idea that you should automatically be friends with other trans-people is as prejudice as the idea that trans-people are freaks to be stayed away from.
Quote from: regan on December 12, 2010, 08:44:52 PM
What happens if you read your new best friend as trans, you bond over that and it turns out they're not? How does that conversation go "Surgeon, what do you mean who was my Surgeon? OMG"
I think the approach I would take is to basically only out myself if we were to talk about trans stuff. I think the point of this approach is to avoid making someone feel uncomfortable about their ability to pass. And if they aren't trans and they turned out to be a good friend, that's great too. :)
The idea that you should automatically be friends with other trans-people is as prejudice...
I doubt that. I would think that even though its not going to be automatic, that two trans persons share something that:
a) very few people have,
b) that very few people understand,
c) that even fewer really care about.
I know I've made friends with a lot of people based on a hell of a lot less.
Quote from: tekla on December 13, 2010, 12:32:56 PM
The idea that you should automatically be friends with other trans-people is as prejudice...
I doubt that. I would think that even though its not going to be automatic, that two trans persons share something that:
a) very few people have,
b) that very few people understand,
c) that even fewer really care about.
I know I've made friends with a lot of people based on a hell of a lot less.
I agree.
My best friend IRL I only met because we are both trans and we share a mutual friend who thought we should get togather mearly beacuse we are trans.
We hit it off very well and we have pretty much only being trans in comon.
Quote from: GinaDouglas on December 12, 2010, 10:38:36 PM
The idea that you should automatically be friends with other trans-people is as prejudice as the idea that trans-people are freaks to be stayed away from.
I encounter this often in a non-trans circumstance ...
When people learn about my nationality, they tell me about some acquaintance they know belongs to the same nationality. After describing their acquaintance, they ask me, "you must know him/her, don't you?".
Change "nationality" in the above two sentences to ethnicity, linguistic group, employer/company, trans status, etc. You get the picture.
They assume that just because I am X, I must know or be friends with everyone else who they know is X, even if the category X (as in the case of my nationality) could comprise a group of hundreds of millions of people, including hundreds of thousands locally.
For example, if you know my next door neighbor and you learn that I live next door to your acquaintance/friend, would you assume that my next door neighbor knows me? That assumption would be untrue. I have never met my next door neighbor despite living here for 9 months now. I do not know most of my other neighbors either. In fact, I do not know any of them. I have met and interacted with a few, but that does not mean that I know them.
The question which seems prejudicial to you is probably just an over-generalized assumption which human beings use to make their own lives simpler. Imagine if you had to get to know each person individually without making any assumptions about them based on stereotypical generalizations of the categories they might belong to ... you might end up accomplishing a lot less per day than you do at present. Especially in the US, I have noticed how we have idiot-proofed almost everything. Things are designed for the lowest common denominator, so that everyone will survive. To assume that everyone has the intelligence or the time or the patience to not make generalizations and assumptions is to expect too much from everyone. Generalizations help us ignore a lot of detail that is not particularly relevant to our own lives.
While it might offend us that other people do this, I have observed that most of us make as many generalizations as everyone else, although we are often more conscious about making gender-specific generalizations.