Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Do you feel you were born female..........or do you feel you just want to be female?

I know I love being female.........

.........but don't see myself as being born female........it feels more like I have a female soul or core which is now able to express itself freely.....

It's a wonderful feeling & makes me a very happy and contented female loving the magic of my femininity.......

misty xxx

I've wrestled with this too... but in the end, I grew tired of fighting against what I knew I knew. I think my fear was that if I admitted I was a woman, I knew I'd HAVE to then transition. So I theorized, philosophized, debated, analysed... anything to keep The Truth at bay and keep it an intellectual plaything.

Worked for 42 years.

Then I broke down, fell apart and... admitted it.

And now I'm transitioning :)

Kate

I guess this is always the question everyone wants to know.  I've given up on an answer, except that to me the most important thing is not how I got to be the way I am, but that I am who I am.  The rest is academic.  I don't know if I'll ever get to really transition, but I think it is down the road a little ways due to circumstances beyond my control.  Until then I continue my quest to make friends with the part of me that has been so repressed for so long.  And I'm finding that I really like her!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

i see myself as someone who was born a woman but was raised as a boy/man because of my external genitals.

Quote from: misty on January 07, 2007, 05:39:06 PM
whichever option you choose, hopefully its ok to transition??

Honey, you don't need anyone's permission or approval, even.  :)

Perhaps it just boils down to semantics but I really think that both statements mean pretty much the same thing.  I never felt like a woman trapped in a man's body.  Logically, that statement never made sense to me.  But I always wanted to be a girl from my earliest memories. I did transition successfully many years ago.

I believe that we play the semantics game to put off what may be inevitable.  And if it is inevitable that you will transition, it really doesn't matter how you word it.  You are a transsexual and you will make the change.

Cindi

Afere i got old enough to realize things, there was never a question that i was born internally female, never....I think you sort of just know cause its in you.   But that feeling may be very different for everyone.
the feeling i describe is not a feeling that "i know" it's a feeling of being wrong, like the inside is right and outside is wrong and there's just that nagging tick tocking of a beat in your head constantly saying "something is wrong-something is not right"......................
Keep on trying misty - keep trying..

hugs
Ricki

Sometimes I know I was born a women and other times I just want to be one soooooooo much.
AsS Kate said

QuoteI've wrestled with this too... but in the end, I grew tired of fighting against what I knew I knew.

I feel the same way too.
Yes and I do like the women I am becoming.
Jillieann

Deffinatly born a woman.... not my fault I had a birthdefect... but youve got to deal with the cards delt  :)

Quote from: LynnER on January 07, 2007, 07:24:08 PM
not my fault I had a birthdefect

See this is why I love you all so much already, you have such a knack for stating seemingly complicated issues at their simple, uncomplicated best.

I was certainly born a woman, without a doubt. I can't think of any other viable reason to put our bodies through transition, our minds through social acclimation and our purses through over a hundred thousand dollars.


~Mandy~

I was born a woman.

Steph

Born a woman...

...But brainwashed into believing that it was all about the appendage that got stuck on me by my genes, and that I'd NEVER, NEVER be able to change that, so I just had to try my best to be what was difficult for me, but oh so easy and natural for others.

Part of my epiphany was FINALLY putting all the pieces together and seeing that my core, my foundation was female, and that I'd built a male persona on top of that foundation -- a very shaky one at that.

And, yeah, I'd wrestled with the born-as/just-want-to dichotomy, too.  It was realizing that the core, the foundation of me -- on which I'd built my persona -- is female, is what led me to choose Born As.

Karen

Quote from: Steph on January 07, 2007, 08:39:57 PM
I was born a woman.

Steph

Twice now!
Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on January 07, 2007, 08:56:46 PM

Quote from: Steph on January 07, 2007, 08:39:57 PM
I was born a woman.

Steph

Twice now!
Kristi

:)

Steph

Once, twice, three times a woman.....

;

Cindi

Its a strange one to think about at times.  I never had the feeling of being in the wrong body but grew up knowing I was a girl.  Even though I had a typical male upbringing I kinda reached the point Kate mentions where I had the fear that if I admitted to myself how I felt that I would have to transition.  Once I got passed that it became easier and now I think of myself as always having been a girl.  As LynnER says - you have to deal with the cards you have been dealt !!

Becky
xx

Just to mess things up I guess.

I was NOT born a woman. (and I am going to pull the semantics card and say you CAN'T be born a WOMAN. Female yes, girl yes. NOT woman. There IS a difference! (Woman = girl who has grown up by strict definition.) )

An no I was not BORN a girl either.

I was however not born normal. 99% of me was a boy, Yes that is right, boy. NOT girl. Yes I liked a lot of traditionally girl things as it happens but I was NOT born a girl. Not to be confused with what I am currently mind, I so very definitely am a girl, maybe perhaps even closing in on growing up. Maybe. But I was not born like this. Mind you I doubt my therapist would agree nor many others unless you happen to know how I think, an then you might ;)

^*sigh* I am afraid I will sound like a fluffbuny so I will just say that things change. I AM a girl NOW, and have been for 20 odd years, but that is not what I was when I was born.

Just a few coppers...

I originally view myself as just "wanting to be female" when I started coming out of dial in October 2005.  However, it wasn't until I was fully out of denial sometime in January 2006 and had a big time panic attack when I had finally accepted the truth and I have viewed myself as always have been female from that point on.  Other have already stated a lot of my other thoughts on this matter quite well.

Melissa

I am going to say "I am not 100% certain", but there are liitle things about me that would support the idea that I was born mentally female.  (Not all of which will be presented here).  As a child, I was very sensitive emotionally, and would cry all too easily.  I eventually learned to supress it (well, almost), but after starting hormones, I cry a lot more easily, and I find it to be a wondeful emotional release.  I had been on the fence about whether or not I was female inside for many years before I finally decided to stop fighting myself over it back in 2003/04.  People tell me I have a lot of feminine mannerisms and personality traits, and a few people that I have met in person and online post-transition have said "I can't imagine you as a guy".  My therapist has described the way I was before transition as "a guy, sort of".  I think a lot of people just assumed I was gay before (including my brother).  I am going to say that maybe I have an inner femininity that finally found it's way out.   I will definely say that I am happier now, regardless of whether I was born female or had aquired femininity later on.

Quote from: Kimberly on January 08, 2007, 11:12:13 AM
Just to mess things up I guess.

I was NOT born a woman. (and I am going to pull the semantics card and say you CAN'T be born a WOMAN. Female yes, girl yes. NOT woman. There IS a difference! (Woman = girl who has grown up by strict definition.) )

An no I was not BORN a girl either.

I was however not born normal. 99% of me was a boy, Yes that is right, boy. NOT girl. Yes I liked a lot of traditionally girl things as it happens but I was NOT born a girl. Not to be confused with what I am currently mind, I so very definitely am a girl, maybe perhaps even closing in on growing up. Maybe. But I was not born like this. Mind you I doubt my therapist would agree nor many others unless you happen to know how I think, an then you might ;)

^*sigh* I am afraid I will sound like a fluffbuny so I will just say that things change. I AM a girl NOW, and have been for 20 odd years, but that is not what I was when I was born.

Just a few coppers...

Hello Kim :)


                        I understand what you mean. No one remembers the day they were born, or even the first 4 years. I remember playing dress up in my mothers clothes at 4 or 5. I remember loving to be with girls and spending all my time with them from the time I entered kindergarten. All the adults thought it was cute, and said I was a little "Casanova" because I had girlfriends and spent all my time with them and they all liked me. Even into jr high and high school I always had girls who I was friends with.  While I had one male friend I could not stand spending time with a group of boys. They just had a completely different outlook on life.  I just knew I was different than everyone else and I was so jealous and hurt when the girls started having sleep overs and I was excluded. My depression started then and steadily grew worse. I did not know at that moment I was a girl. I constantly fantisized and dreamed of waking up and being a girl. I certainly knew something wasn't right and knew I wanted to have a girls life. It just never clicked in my mind I was a girl until the day I first heard the word "Transsexual" in a story written about Christine Jorgensen. I immediately knew what I was and that I had always been a girl.

                  So have I always been female?  Yes. Was I always aware of it? No. Not until I was in my teens and read the description of myself in that story.


beth

I think what Kimberly was getting at is that nobody is born a woman (adult female).  We all start out as children.

Melissa

Quote from: Debbie_Anne on January 08, 2007, 11:40:13 AM
I am going to say "I am not 100% certain", but there are liitle things about me that would support the idea that I was born mentally female.  (Not all of which will be presented here).  As a child, I was very sensitive emotionally, and would cry all too easily.  

Sensitivity and the ability to cry easily are not traits unique to the female of the species. I know several women who are not sensitive and who never cry. And men who are the opposite.

Quote from: misty on January 07, 2007, 04:53:27 PM
Do you feel you were born female..........or do you feel you just want to be female

You might find Can you be a boy who wants to be a girl? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,3946.msg34784.html#msg34784) helpful too ;)

Kate

Quote from: Kate on January 07, 2007, 05:24:53 PM
I've wrestled with this too... but in the end, I grew tired of fighting against what I knew I knew. I think my fear was that if I admitted I was a woman, I knew I'd HAVE to then transition. So I theorized, philosophized, debated, analysed... anything to keep The Truth at bay and keep it an intellectual plaything.

Worked for 42 years.

Then I broke down, fell apart and... admitted it.

And now I'm transitioning :)

Kate

Kate, you said a mouthful.  (Scary - same number of years even!)  All I can say is Ditto!

Chaunte

Quote from: Chaunte on January 08, 2007, 06:24:28 PM
(Scary - same number of years even!)

What's even scarier is I know lots of TS that are 42.  Like maybe 3 others.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on January 08, 2007, 07:11:17 PM
What's even scarier is I know lots of TS that are 42.  Like maybe 3 others.
Melissa

Wow, I'm within two years of that.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

I voted "I just want to be female"
I loved the wanting.......
& I love being female from the wanting

I don't feel I was born female..........
.........I just feel my soul and spirit are female.......

misty xxx

Born genetic male, emotionally female, wish I had been born a girl, want to be a woman.

Susan Kay

I don't really remember seeing myself as one gender or the other until at least the age of 11. I do remember that my closest friends have always been girls and I simply never understood boys. But, as early as age 5 I looked like a girl and was constantly "mistaken" for one, and I caught a lot of flak for that from people who should have been more careful. I know that messed me up a lot. :-\ And, I can remember absolutely hating the boy's clothes that I was made to wear when I was even younger than that.

I suppose then that I must have been born mentally female after all. :)

QuoteSometimes I know I was born a women and other times I just want to be one soooooooo much.
AsS Kate said

I mirror this as well... I know what i feel and do not feel, sometimes i just pray and wish for some sort of wholeness in that end the gender really would not matter would it?
If a jeanie came to you and said I'm flipping a boy-girl coin whatever side it lands on you'll be completely?  So in that what would it matter--- That wholeness thing stirs me thanks Jillean...
Cause i ponder on this a lot a cure or a fix is a fix right..........
ricki

I voted just want to be female because I have deep down felt like a female as I carry very feminine traits.  I was always the loner in my family never comforming to the standards of the day though in the end I had to comply to some degree. I resisted many things both my parents wanted me to be as male. Though I did play with some boy toys I really wanted to play and be with girls and did so. This was looked on as to weird in the eyes of both my parents and everyone else. There were some girls that took a liking to me in a friendly sort of way nothing sexual. I had from early on thought myself a girl in a spiritual sense if that makes sense. I didnt consider myself male or female even. Just a confused soul for nearly 47 years. Now I know I am female born with male parts. Still discovering my true self.  Female.

Linda Ann

Love being female :angel:

I wasn't born female.......
In my case the want has been evolving from a core point......which feels like my soul......but also environmental triggers have been significant along the way.......but the important thing is as each one has occurred I have welcomed them & been receptive to them.......now the ball is rolling it is self perpetuating.......
.....by the time I am 90 the craving & desire could be well out of control!!....

.....the flooding of the blood with T had a dampening effect on my femininity.....now the soul is stronger and just uses T for feminine libido & feminine drive.....!!

misty xxx


ps does anybody else have trouble typing with long nails.........im trying to get used to typing with flatter angled fingers instead of typing like a guitarist fingering a fret board
....just my excuse for a few typing errors lately.....!!!

Quote from: misty on January 11, 2007, 07:08:29 AM
ps does anybody else have trouble typing with long nails….…..im trying to get used to typing with flatter angled fingers instead of typing like a guitarist fingering a fret board
….just my excuse for a few typing errors lately…..!!!

Oh yes.  So, I keep my nails short.  My hand seems to pass anyways in pretty much all situations.  Here's a picture of it:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.melissagirl.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2Fmyhand.jpg&hash=21622bb36c0781b649cf623fd483ce63859c2687)

Melissa

With my two fingered typing I would only have to trim two......but then they would look imbalanced & I've been nurturing them and cosseting them....so couldn't face deliberately pruning them
"Hands" up those who are having similar problems.....could be in for a series of hand photos!!
Still its all part of the fun of being a girl.........plus I'm in great demand as a backscratcher!!........and sometimes it can get you out of jobs.........."but I might damage my nails!!"........all these wonderful new pleasures.........who'd be male!!!!

misty xxx

Well, I'm a compulsive nailbiter, so I guess it works out for me. :P

Melissa

Hehe, I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I do still like to keep them short.

Melissa

[crazy grooming tip #1 from Rebecca]

When you bite your nails to shorten them, they grow back round edged and you don't have to do much to shape them.

Hehe, well I tried to fight tooth and nail to stop, but it didn't work. ;D

Melissa

Me too Melissa i bite like i'm having mid-day snack or lunch?  More so when nervous, worried, bored, or watching a thriller movie(which does not happen as often as before movies are not as good as they used to be!)
Anyway i do take two 10mg gelatin capsuls for nail health.. they never grow in mind you with all the munching but... they are a littler firmer not soft?
See there's my  :P girly tip for the day take 2 or 2 10mg gelatin capsuls daily (they're cheap too like 3.00 for a bottle of 100)...for nail health!

I had tinkered on and off with glue on nails and the key board thing>
hehe............... :eusa_wall: :icon_blah:--you're asking me the dyslexic typer i cannot even type right with short nails? hehe...
But i think you have to sort of curve your finger tips up some to keep your nails from digging in..
Huh-humm we are still talking about typing on a keyboard right? :-\ :-*
hehe.........
Ricki

Just make sure you don't glue your nails to the keyboard Ricki.

Melissa

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
you know i am capable of that lunacy right?? hehe.....
Me, booze, and glue not a good combination!
thanks
ricki

....hello you bail niters....my pyting is getting chum bettre noo......
.......be glad when we can just talk to our PC's.......!!

.....the smart PC is on its way though......oooooooh creepy
.....suggesting more logical thought to your posts.......in a low pitched  authoritarian voice from deep within its silicon chips it speaks slowly to me......"misty.......you need to think clearer and more logically my child......and maybe put that glass of red wine down while im talking to you".... ....my face turned glum and my lips upturned as I dropped my head in shame........

....or maybe we could have the chips implanted to help out......I could have a higher IQ chip for the day or the evening and find out what it feels like to be clever......!!

...or plug in a higher femininity chip.....on second thoughts definitely no problem there!!!

....anyway no chips on my nails today.....yippeee.....life is cool...!!

misty xxx

Last night I was at a group that meets regularly for T* folks, and even though the people there were at various levels of passability, I picked up on each person's vibe or presence that told me they (we) are women (there were no F2Ms there) and I realized that this is the same thing I used to see in myself back in the day, when I used to compare myself to men (because I was "supposed" to become one) and even then I knew guys are nothing like me.

To have it come into focus like that and see it that way, it's all so clear now. And it makes sense too if this vibe is what people around us see. Makes sense why I've been accepted by so many people - I was recently told I act the part. Well, we all act the part, once we can let go and stop holding it back; it's something innate.

Hmm, I hope my late night ramblings are at least somewhat understandable. :)

From the time I first  started going out dressed I didn't at any time feel any sense of  maleness  or anything other than 100% female and likewise my feelings towards the other T girls ...they were always instantly female without thinking about it......& my mannerisms etc just fell naturally that way with no rehearsal..............it was just me being me......

It did throw me momentarily one evening though at a pub/club when I heard one very pretty and petite T girl locked in discussion talking about  block & tackle, carburettor performances and spot welding as I was expecting her to be discussing nail varnish shades and hair removal....but I very quickly acclimatised to that ....her nails by the way were very short ...very practical......and I did try vainly to get in on the conversation but embarrassed myself with my sparse knowledge of sprockets, springs and  pinions and ended up migrating to the dance floor as Abba came on!!.....there's no hope!!

........i wasn't born a mechanic that's for sure!!!......

I also find it so much less stress in life being my female self....when I park the car crooked I don't get concerned anymore......when I can't work out the DVD
recorder instructions I can put it down to my female brain so I don't need to worry that I should easily understand it and just simply ask a male to sort it out for me........all these things I used to occupy my brain with unnecessarily.....let the male brains wear themselves out!!

We can save ours for discussing much more important things like lipstick shades, dress sizes ......and finger nail lengths......!!

misty xxx

At the moment i have one foot in both camps.... I wish I was born female but now am trying to deal with what i've got...

Quote from: misty on January 19, 2007, 09:47:23 AM
From the time I first  started going out dressed I didn't at any time feel any sense of  maleness  or anything other than 100% female and likewise my feelings towards the other T girls ...they were always instantly female without thinking about it

Interesting.  I have trouble seeing most t-girls (a name crossdressers typically use) as women--some people who say they're transsexuals too.  This doesn't mean I won't treat them in a respectful manner, because I always do that.  However, there are some I just can not think of as anything other than women.  I see many of the MTFs on these forums that I can't see as anything other than female, but maybe that's because I tend to pick up on vibes well.  I can usually sense a male vibe in many FTMs as well.

Melissa

Posted 19th January 2006

I think I just tune into their femininity or portrayal of whatever trans or level of trans they are - even if they are of transuranic proportions but might find an encounter with a transmigrated female soul a little disconcerting!!

Just going off for a transfusion of hot mead –  the transatlantic winds are gale force here right now so I better hang some rocks transversely across the thatch – keep getting transitory power cuts reducing light available for transfiguring before dinner– hope the power surges don't blow the transistors in my pc and my broadband keeps transmitting – if you can translate this transcription by this transcendental transsexual then you may be truly translunary or need a holiday in Transylvania!!

Transoceanic wishes to you :)

misty  xxx


Posted 20th January 2006


.............help please!!

My mind is in a jumble and I need help with nomenclature and definitions

umop ap!sdn said :-

QuoteLast night I was at a group that meets regularly for T* folks, and even though the people there were at various levels of passability, I picked up on each person's vibe or presence that told me they (we) are women

Is the T* in "T* folk" a wild card expression for all trans folk?

misty said :-

QuoteI didn't at any time feel any sense of  maleness  or anything other than 100% female and likewise my feelings towards the other T girls

Melissa said :-

QuoteI have trouble seeing most t-girls (a name crossdressers typically use) as women

By "T girls" I was following on from how I interpreted (or misinterpreted?!!) the "T* folk"expression.

In my post in using "T girls" I was referring generally to the trans girls in the pub/clubs I was visiting who were in various mental and/or physical states of male to female transformation (permanent or sought temporarily - maybe just for the night and other nights), and who were all dressing seriously to portray their femininity as best as they could not parodying it.

Would this best be stated as "T* girls" (can't be T lady as she is the one who pours the tea!!) or is there a word ("transgender"?) or short phrase that best describes all these levels and degrees of serious portrayal of femininity collectively that is accepted and used world wide?.......should I have said "transgender girls" and if so is there an acceptable shortened version of this such as "trans girls" or "T* girls"??

........your help would be very much appreciated

misty xxx

Quote from: misty on January 20, 2007, 11:40:58 AMif you can translate this transcription by this transcendental transsexual then you may be truly translunary or need a holiday in Transylvania!!

Guess I'm in trouble then 'cuz I understood. :D

QuoteIs the T* in ?T* folk? a wild card expression for all trans folk?

Yes. I heard it way back when used as an umbrella term.

I know that I was born female, there's no question about that...can't do anything about it right now, though, so I'm hanging around the Internet for the time being. :)

Quotemisty said:-

I know I love being female.........

.........but don't see myself as being born female........it feels more like I have a female soul or core which is now able to express itself freely.....

I see life as much more fun as a female.....I take naturally to it and love it...

Male clothing looks generally quite boring and plain to me

I love the art and styles and freedom in design of female clothing and shoes....I can express myself better

I love wearing jewellery and perfume

I love wearing make up

I love being femininely sensuous with the right atmosphere...candles and nice music etc.....

They are things that natal females love too.....they are all quite normal attributes of being a female if you so desire them....

Being female I am less stressed and far happier in life....

I feel less need to think I should get things always right.....I can off load........downstream.....

I am far less self conscious....

I worry far less....

Being female has made me a far happier and contented person...

This is the effect being female has on me......

........and I can cry openly and profusely in company at the end of a film with a sad ending and not have to try and hold it in......letting my emotions pour out naturally....not feeling restrained or caged.....

I have been released from my cage and I am free to fly.......

misty xxx

Quote from: umop ap!sdn on January 20, 2007, 03:10:42 PM

QuoteIs the T* in ?T* folk? a wild card expression for all trans folk?

Yes. I heard it way back when used as an umbrella term.

For trans-folk, yes.

But forl the term T Girl, it doesn't include FTMs or those born in a female body. ;)  But is could be used synonymously with transgendered or TG or t-girl (pretty clever, huh?).  Personally I don't consider myself a T-Girl or even a girl for that matter (unless it's another woman playfully referring to me as "girl").  The difference between a t-girl and girl is that the "Trans" part is emphasized and that's usually the closest most crossdresser feel comfortable enough referring to themselves as.  I'm sure if you did a poll, almost all transsexuals would assert that they are a woman over a "t girl".  Not that it's a bad term, I just don't use it.  Nor do I refer to myself as a "->-bleeped-<-", which is actually usually associated with transsexual rather than transvestite anyways.  I think that by using both of these terms you are essentially saying that you don't see yourself as a woman, but as something other than a woman.  That's my opinion on the subject anyways.

Melissa

QuoteMisty said :-

By "T girls" I was following on from how I interpreted (or misinterpreted?!!) the "T* folk"expression

Hi Melissa

In my post I was referring to a mixture of MTF transgender individuals in the pub-clubs I was visiting..........
I remember the scenes vividly.....they were a colorful mixture of all types of trans (MTF) people of varying degrees of transformation and mostly we were all young enough to be called girls........ and there was one more elderly transgender lady who was very happy to be called one of the girls..........."girls" is used loosely and freely in fun all the time where I live for all ages of females by all types of people including natal females...........
........"girls just wanna have fun".......... ^-^

Susan's Place is a place for transgender resources so I presume "transgender" is a good encompassing word, so maybe "transgender girls" is reasonable to use in this context.

Of these transgender girls.............some had received full SRS, some orchiectomy, some just HRT, some thinking about it, some talking about it, some wanting to but couldn't because of their circumstances, some portraying as female and enjoying themselves and happy to be male at their desk the next morning, some happy to be 60/40 others happy to be 28/72, some had wigs, some had real hair and some had thrush!!......and many I didn't know their degree of femininity or their degree of physical change etc, etc, etc......a pleasant and interesting mixture of individuals expressing their femininity in their own individual way and to their own degree........stimulating curiosity, discussion and thought......

So I was needing a word or phrase to describe this mixture of female trans folk succinctly......and then describe how I related to them.........

When out and about at the time I just thought of them all in my head as females.........

misty xxx

I see.  I prefer ot use the term trans-women. :)  But if you prefer t-girls, that's fine.  It just conjures up (in my mind) a bunch of crossdressers referring to themselves as t-girls (emphasizing they are not girls by adding the T).

Melissa

Hi Melissa

Thank you for your reply

Quotemisty said :-

By "T girls" I was following on from how I interpreted (or misinterpreted?!!) the "T* folk"expression

By using "T girls" I was following on from "T* folk" thinking I might be using an appropriate short expression for transgender girls but actually not clear on what was the right expression I should be using in the context in my post which is why I have since asked for help on what is the most appropriate expression to use in that context as my mind was jumbled and confused as to the right one to use.

Quotemisty said :-

Would this best be stated as "T* girls" (can't be T lady as she is the one who pours the tea!!) or is there a word ("transgender"?) or short phrase that best describes all these levels and degrees of serious portrayal of femininity collectively that is accepted and used world wide?.......should I have said "transgender girls" and if so is there an acceptable shortened version of this such as "trans girls" or "T* girls"??

........your help would be very much appreciated

I haven't used the "T girl" expression before as far as I know and based on what you have said I would not in the context described above ever use "T girls" again or the "t-girl" expression that you referred to as I was not referring to a specific section of the MTF transgender community.

Quotemisty said:-

Susan's Place is a place for transgender resources so I presume "transgender" is a good encompassing word, so maybe "transgender girls" is reasonable to use in this context.

The expression I would use next time in the context I was describing would be "transgender girls" or for convenience the shortened "trans girls" example I suggested as a possible expression above.

Thank you very much for your help.

misty xxx

Having had some time to think about it, my vote has now been entered.

If:
- M2Fs are innately of the female gender, thus girls/women, and
- transsexuals are born this way, then it follows that:
- I (and every M2F) was born a girl, but with a horrible birth defect.

:)

I was born a woman.

Quote from: umop ap!sdn on January 27, 2007, 06:33:57 PM
Having had some time to think about it, my vote has now been entered.

If:
- M2Fs are innately of the female gender, thus girls/women, and
- transsexuals are born this way, then it follows that:
- I (and every M2F) was born a girl, but with a horrible birth defect.

:)

That's me. Born a girl with a horrible birth defect.

I was definently born female, evern though I looked male, I always new I was a girl. Transsexualism was the medical affliction I was born with, which has been overcome by transition, so that I could live as my true esscence self, which has always been female. For me I have never seen transtion as a way of "becoming" a woman, I was born that, transition has just allowed me to live a womans life, which is the natural state for me. But thats from the nature, or biological view point I suppose. becuase we also have the social viewpoint, which is being or expressing whatever we feel at some level, so in that regards, I don't think everyone has to be born female in order to live life as a woman I think their are many aspects of our lives that are just social constructions, so people have to do what makes them happy.

live and let live. 

-pass-

I'd like to answer both but there was no way to do that :)

No question that I was born who I am, and also I feel it is a conscious choice to live as I am as opposed to hiding it.

zythyra

Of those who voted they want to be female I wonder what is your percentage of want.......and at what level of want would you consider fully transitioning
eg if you felt yourself wanting 85% or felt yourself 85% female....would you transition fully, etc etc, .......and this percentage may vary also.....yearly, weekly..........

.....for those who wish to stay in between and never transition fully I find it totally understandable ........whatever your percentage of femininity or label if you choose to have one......you can be you.........if you are allowed to be..... stay as you feel if you wish ....if you can......70/30....20/80....50/50..........

Every case is different
We are all individuals
All have our own feelings on what our femininity is
And how much it is

You may consider yourself 100% female and therefore 100% women
If somebody considers themselves another percentage eg 85 or 50 or 30% female they are entitled to feel they are that percentage of women or girl
and are expressing their femininity at that rate.....or even temporarily at 100% or even 80% of the time at 50% femininity..........whatever they please......
......they can....and they do......

I'm always happy expressing and enjoying my femininity............
It's always been like that ever since I started going out as misty....or staying in as misty.....
I didn't analyse it much.........
I was just out having a good time as my feminine self.....

.........just out on a Friday night or whatever night having a good time, meeting new people and having fun..........enjoying my femininity in all its modes of expression.....

The modes of expression common with natal females.....dressing up for the evening, nice perfume, the jangle of jewellery, smart stylish clothing, sensuousness, fun, mingling, happiness, joking & laughter, chatting, socialising....Making friends , dancing happily with people, making dates,....
Getting advice off natal females on make up, shoes, clothing....was nice to be mothered or complimented on legs......etc........cooking a stir fry for girl friends....dancing the night away......candlelit dinners............just snap shot ramblings of a female soul.........and sometimes wandering lonely in the night and meeting a common soul.............

Virtually no introspective analysis of my femininity .......just being me misty......out as a girl........ I didn't need a label..........knew little of definitions..............just naturally enjoying my femininity....
Exciting... fun.....no need to worry about defining myself.......it didn't enter my head.........

So many people I expect are just like that....just going out having fun and not analysing too much their femininity.......just being more concerned about passing or do they look nice or attractive for the evening......does their hair look nice.......do I look good......do I look smart.......do I look neat.......

.........whatever the percentage of femininity..........you can enjoy it.....
you might not be able to put a percentage on it.......you may not be bothered to.....you may not wish to be included in a group name or label...
and ....its ok.....its you being you .....if you are able to be.....able to express your feminine side fully....

luckily I have always been able to......

....the only label I have is my own....."misty"....
which is me.....free to choose.....free to change my mind whenever I may please....free to see things as right or wrong......free to appreciate and respect others......free to be me.....

that respect of others includes the strong respect for those who identify with a definite identity, definition, disorder or label, etc
that is there free choice..... like I have mine....

Only that person knows what they are........what they want to be
& that as biological beings can change frequently....or may not......

I like all the ranges of femininity
From 1 to 100%...
I love femininity...
For example......I love seeing a male who can dress female for the night ..............and see him get in touch with his feminine side ........and for me to meet his feminine side........ I find so beautiful and so very rewarding...
I am drawn to their femininity.......my female soul.......so bare and so clear.....and feeling so innocent........

.......and on that night their femininity for me doesn't have a transgender label.......I can see them enjoying their femininity ......embracing it....having fun with it.....and suddenly I'm talking to one of the girls....and they see this simple girl before them......my female soul........bared to the world...........barriers gone...............

I therefore do embrace all levels and percentages of transgender.........
I've had different levels myself in the past...
its not in any way a problem to me ....quite the opposite.... whatever the percentage an individual has I am drawn to it and curious about it and interested in it....
its my female soul wanting to connect with other female vibrations or female souls.........

and accept them each as individuals with their own sense of identity like we all normally have........
our identity is what we think it is.......
we don't let anybody else decide that.....
neither does any one of us want a gender label or level of gender identity given to us that is not ours....that is not true......that is presumed or assumed ...for convenience, simplification or otherwise.....

....... others are strongly within a group, definition or label.........and I respect wholeheartedly their choice.......for they have freely chosen that label, definition or group as fitting  their persona......

my identity is me only.......this is my label.......

"misty"

......hopefully you are free to be yourself........
.......and free to express your femininity.......
......I wish you all well in that...

misty xxx

......long nails getting in the way of my typing again..........

Qwerty......ooouioops!!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi159.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft131%2Fmistycelticmaiden%2FQwerty11024pixels-2.jpg%3Ft%3D1171420757&hash=0809cff39e939fa8dba5b7edd185023c631ac072)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi159.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft131%2Fmistycelticmaiden%2Fmistyhands2.jpg&hash=aa2a0c70f5f71d76aa2c35fe2f3721db43121868)

Quote from: zythyra on February 05, 2007, 09:42:18 PM
I'd like to answer both but there was no way to do that :)

No question that I was born who I am, and also I feel it is a conscious choice to live as I am as opposed to hiding it.

zythyra

   This one works for me.


Love,

Becca

hi rebecca

your name has always intrigued me

.........the fog bit that is

did you choose it because you were at some point in a fog???......or are still in a fog....???

misty xxx

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi159.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft131%2Fmistycelticmaiden%2Fmistyhands2.jpg&hash=aa2a0c70f5f71d76aa2c35fe2f3721db43121868)

Quote from: misty on February 14, 2007, 06:02:04 PM
hi rebecca

your name has always intrigued me

.........the fog bit that is

did you choose it because you were at some point in a fog???......or are still in a fog....???

misty xxx

Hi Misty,

   I was in a bad state for a long time and I felt so emotionally numb that I didn't believe I was human anymore. I've used the name 'Robot Fog' for a long time. The name came to   me and I used to think of myself that way. I finally came out to myself as TG about a year ago and I felt like a human again. When I discovered Susan's, I thought there would be a whole bunch of Rebecca accounts. I didn't want to tack on a number, so I kept Robot's last-name of Fog. In my mind, it's almost like I married myself.   ;D

  I was in a fog for so long. It was thick and blinding, mysterious and scary. The word reminds me of how my life is NOT what it was[n't].
  These days the fog is a web pseudonym for me because life is tricky enough without trying to recall all of the identities that that you make up for each site. I almost exclusively use Rebecca Fog here at Susans. I still use Robot Fog in other sites - especially when I'm trying to be funny.

   Sorry about the speech. Sometimes, I can be overly thorough.

   By the way, I really love your look. It's stylish.

Love,

Becca

Hi Rebecca

Thank you very much for your compliment

Hopefully the Fog will clear away altogether one day soon and you will become Rebecca Blue Skies..........

misty xxx

Quote from: RebeccaFog on February 14, 2007, 07:30:27 PM
I've used the name 'Robot Fog' for a long time. The name came to me and I used to think of myself that way. I finally came out to myself as TG about a year ago and I felt like a human again.

I know exactly what you mean.  I used to think I was some kind of robot.  I felt so emotionless all the time except for anger.  I wondered if maybe I was some kind of robot and was told I was a human.  The thing was, I had to lock my emotions away in order to survive.  Back in November of 2005 after I was coming out of denial, I remember the day I finally unlocked all my pent up emotions.  I cried for like 3 hours with my wife consoling me at my side.  I had never cried that long or hard before and I still haven't since.  I do feel human again and passionately express all my emotions and it simply feels wonderful just to be alive.

Melissa

All I can say with full certainty is that I was born "me".  All the labels were ex post facto.

Embracing the continuum of gender and avoiding the binary, I'd have to say I was born way towards the female side, both physically and mentally.

HRT made me feel even more "me".

The phrase "wanting to be female" has the tone of autogynephillia.  Perhaps the BBL approach fits some, but not me and I really think it's a vast oversimplification looking in the wrong direction.  Aristotle's dictum comes to mind: "A distinction in analysis is not a separation in fact".  BBL may have come up with some thoughtful analytic distinctions, but to posit a false factual dichotomy from those observations is an unwarranted leap.

Peace,

Karissa

Quote from: Karissa_SC on February 16, 2007, 05:06:52 PM
The phrase "wanting to be female" has the tone of autogynephillia.

Well, there are some people who don't feel human and "want to be" human once again.  That doesn't mean they weren't actually human in the first place.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on February 16, 2007, 05:09:18 PM

Quote from: Karissa_SC on February 16, 2007, 05:06:52 PM
The phrase "wanting to be female" has the tone of autogynephillia.

Well, there are some people who don't feel human and "want to be" human once again.  That doesn't mean they weren't actually human in the first place.

Melissa

Hi Melissa

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Logically, there are a few fallacies in linking the two statements (ignoratio elenchi and false analogy).  Plus, you insert the word "feel" which wasn't part of the initial question.  The humanity of "people who don't feel human" is tautological.  You're comparing an emotional state with an ontological one.

If it's a joke, never mind the never-recovering philosophy major :).

Actually, my comparison is based on that there are many transsexuals who "feel" like they're a man because that's what they see and take it at face value, but also experienced this unfounded, yet strong urge to "want" to be female even though they are in reality.  The 2 statements are not that dissimilar.

Melissa

Quote from: Karissa_SC on February 16, 2007, 05:43:41 PM

Quote from: Melissa on February 16, 2007, 05:09:18 PM

Quote from: Karissa_SC on February 16, 2007, 05:06:52 PM
The phrase "wanting to be female" has the tone of autogynephillia.

Well, there are some people who don't feel human and "want to be" human once again.  That doesn't mean they weren't actually human in the first place.

Melissa

Hi Melissa

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Logically, there are a few fallacies in linking the two statements (ignoratio elenchi and false analogy).  Plus, you insert the word "feel" which wasn't part of the initial question.  The humanity of "people who don't feel human" is tautological.  You're comparing an emotional state with an ontological one.

If it's a joke, never mind the never-recovering philosophy major :).

Perhaps the straw man would be able to clear up some thoughts! ;)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tinkerbell on February 16, 2007, 09:03:45 PM

Quote from: Karissa_SC on February 16, 2007, 05:43:41 PM

Quote from: Melissa on February 16, 2007, 05:09:18 PM

Quote from: Karissa_SC on February 16, 2007, 05:06:52 PM
The phrase "wanting to be female" has the tone of autogynephillia.

Well, there are some people who don't feel human and "want to be" human once again.  That doesn't mean they weren't actually human in the first place.

Melissa

Hi Melissa

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Logically, there are a few fallacies in linking the two statements (ignoratio elenchi and false analogy).  Plus, you insert the word "feel" which wasn't part of the initial question.  The humanity of "people who don't feel human" is tautological.  You're comparing an emotional state with an ontological one.

If it's a joke, never mind the never-recovering philosophy major :).

Perhaps the straw man would be able to clear up some thoughts! ;)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

lol , i'm surprised!  i was going to suggest the same thing.  the straw man is the guy to go if you want to know about philosophy or this topic;  ;)

Ummmmmmm Okay i give up  :icon_confused2: who is the "straw man" and exactly what does this mysterious person do?  Is he/she related to tinkerbell??
Woof
Ricki

well i was born a girl but now i'm transitioning to be a man  :D

Quote from: Ricki on February 17, 2007, 05:33:28 AM
Ummmmmmm Okay i give up  :icon_confused2: who is the "straw man" and exactly what does this mysterious person do?  Is he/she related to tinkerbell??
Woof
Ricki

Have you ever seen the wizard of oz, Ricki?

Melissa

Quote from: Ricki on February 17, 2007, 05:33:28 AM
Ummmmmmm Okay i give up  :icon_confused2: who is the "straw man" and exactly what does this mysterious person do?  Is he/she related to tinkerbell??
Woof
Ricki

Straw man is a type of philosophical argument where you restate the opponent's argument in a different way, (creating a "straw man") and then you argue against your restatement, not the original argument.

Dennis

Quote from: Dennis on February 17, 2007, 11:14:12 AM
Straw man is a type of philosophical argument where you restate the opponent's argument in a different way, (creating a "straw man") and then you argue against your restatement, not the original argument.

Oh thanks Dennis.  I didn't know that.  I thought they were referring to the straw man in wizard of oz who wanted to have brains and at the end it was revealed that he had them all along.

Melissa

I read somewhere that the majority of "autogynephiles" are GGs. Whether or not that's true, being a woman and being "autogynephilic" aren't mutually exclusive conditions, now are they? :)

Maybe it's the distinction between being attracted to the (female looking) person in the mirror vs. the excited and aroused feeling one gets realizing "oh wow, I look like that".

I was thinking yesterday about my own motivations for transitioning, and had the thought that, isn't it all ultimately because I really like femaleness? On myself it feels comfortable and really really nice. On another person it seems friendly and is often attractive. By contrast, maleness feels yucky and out of place on me, but on others it depends on the person - some "wear it well", others not. I've always felt this way, although the attraction response didn't kick in until I was about 11 or 12. Given that young kids tend to dislike the opposite gender, this reassures me that it's nonetheless a valid motive.

But then the question follows of why maleness feels wrong on me, and the only thing I can come up with is because it's unexpected. Always having expected myself to look/sound different than the person in the mirror/what actually came out of my mouth. So it really is an identity thing. Well, who knew it would be this complex, LOL.

Anyway, just some more of my way-past-bedtime ramblings. :)

Quote from: misty on January 07, 2007, 04:53:27 PM
Do you feel you were born female..........or do you feel you just want to be female?

misty xxx

Physically, I was born male.  Mentally, I was born female. 

We are not defined by our bodies but by our personalities.  Bodies change dramatically through life but who we are, in our core, never really changes.  We are taught visual presentation is all important because we are often judged before anyone has a chance to get to know us.  But once someone takes the time to know us they no longer see our physical self.  They see who we are inside.

To answer your question, I was born female.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on February 18, 2007, 08:49:15 AM
Physically, I was born male.  Mentally, I was born female. 

I just say I had an 'M' put on my birth certificate when I was born.

Melissa

Well la-de-da.  ;D
Dennis and Melissa thanks for the straw versions!
I like both, have seen the movie to the point of nightmares...
I supppose i have not used the strawman arguement on purpose maybe by accident none the less
Thanks for clarifying, this wisdom should be bottled and sold!
:-*
Ricki

i know this is an old thread but here i go anyway. maybe we can reopen this.

from an early age i "knew" i was different but i didn't know why or what. i knew i liked to wear girls clothes and play with my sisters toys more than my own but i never put the thought together that i was a girl. many of my relatives did treat me like the girls so maybe that was clue that pased me by, i was just happy being me.
i remember the day my father caught me putting a barbie dress on my g i joe.( he liked it very much thank you.........g i joe that is   lol). after that was the "talks" about what a boy does, which again just went over my head.

today i look back over my life and "see" the signs i missed. i see the way my parents and my extended family treated me. the way my babysitters treated me and the way every girl i knew wanted to be my friend but not my girlfriend. how they liked putting makeup on me and more importantly how much i enjoyed it all.

to end this i'd like to say that so far every person i've come out to to date has said basicly the same thing: "well that explains everything"

so yes i was born female, lived somewhere i between and now i am on the road to sanity ;D

I didn't 'know I was different' until I started school at which point I found out that I was different in a whole lot of ways, not just the gender deal.  My first lessons in First Grade with good old Sister Rambo were of her teaching "This is an "A", it's the first letter of the alphabet and it makes a sound like "Aaaaaa' (she sounded like a sick cow, that phonics stuff sucked as a way to teach reading) so I asked if I could just read, since I knew that.  I got a trip to the principals office, Sister Lucifer, where I had to prove to her that I could read, so she took me to the Monsignor, who also had me do stupid tricks, and in the end their sage advice was "I should learn with the rest of my class" at which point I did learn.  I learned how to disrupt, attract attention to myself, cutup, and create first grade mayhem in the class room.

That I liked to dress like a girl at home seems like less of a problem than my constant behavior problems at school.

Born with male genitalia but have come to realise that there is no more questioning or fighting the true me. All of my thoughts and desires are female. It IS me. I feel gifted.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 07, 2007, 06:09:26 PM
Perhaps it just boils down to semantics but I really think that both statements mean pretty much the same thing.  I never felt like a woman trapped in a man's body.  Logically, that statement never made sense to me.  But I always wanted to be a girl from my earliest memories.

Me too.  I always thought I would be happier as a girl/woman but I could see I wasn't.  (Maybe I'm just too literal. :-\) 

I am now ten weeks into living fulltime as Katherine and am still not sure whether I was born a girl/woman or that I am or ever will be a "real" woman.  And I really don't care.  However, I do know now that I was right when I was 4 years old - I am happier as a girl/woman. ;)

- Kate

Not really sure. I've been tossing the idea around and such... I mean, I have friends who say I act more female than male and some friends who say the opposite. I'm trying to figure it all out and such.

To echo the thoughts of another poster several pages back, I was born me. I've just spent almost three decades trying to determine who I am and how I fit, with little more than that "feeling different" sensation to guide me through most of that time. And like tekla, other issues throughout my life tended to way-lay my self-exploration. (Colorful story by the way. . .I love your posts.  ;D )

born grrrrrrrrrrrrrl, atheist & bitch!

Quote from: Natasha on July 14, 2009, 06:00:20 PM
born grrrrrrrrrrrrrl, atheist & bitch!

you better watch yourself. You don't want self inflicted rabies.

Quote from: Rebis on July 16, 2009, 10:18:54 PM
you better watch yourself. You don't want self inflicted rabies.

i'd rather bite ya!

Quote from: Natasha on July 17, 2009, 05:06:57 PM
i'd rather bite ya!

I believe I would be somewhat flattered if you did.

Quote from: Rebis on July 17, 2009, 09:26:33 PM
I believe I would be somewhat flattered if you did.

are you flirting with me, rebecca?  >:-)

Quote from: Natasha on July 18, 2009, 09:48:15 AM
are you flirting with me, rebecca?  >:-)

Yes. As I recall, you have beautiful eyes.    :)

Quote from: Rebis on July 18, 2009, 07:03:17 PM
Yes. As I recall, you have beautiful eyes.    :)

hahaha :icon_redface:

In early childhood I was absolutely sure I was a girl, a girl like any other, but from about age 8 onward a number of people and factors put serious cracks in that conviction. But things kept happening to bring me back to my initial belief. I had surgery and transitioned at 24 and it was so damned easy that I came to understand that my initial belief was correct - I always WAS a girl trying to deal with a bad situation. Now, 35 years farther down the road and reading about developmental differences between boys and girl I am even more certain that I had it right from the beginning.

I am hesitant to say I was born female because I just don't know. I realize that I suppressed very well throughout the years because i knew I was supposed to be a man so I'm not really sure what would've happened if I'd discovered this when I was young.

Born female.

Interesting question.

If I were truly born Female [Mind & Body] then I would not be here, now would I?

Does wanting to have a female body and be seen as, treated as and hopefully fully though of as a women fall under the "want" category?

Basically, I just didn't wake up one day and go......
Hey! you know what would be a great idea? .....  :laugh:

I would have to say I was born female, or at least that 8lb lump above my neck was, lol.

But what a female is?

If female means female genitalia, then we weren't born female, but if you consider neovaginas to be female genitalia then we surely can become female.

If female means female brain processes, then perhaps some of us were born female and some were born tomboyish:)

If female means a belief that one is a female, then most (all?) of us were born female.

If female means dressing and acting like the other females, then we can be female whenever we want as long as we know how a female should act like.

If female means a combination of all the above, then we were born female with a birth defect, and the only cure is transition.

I can not believe I have not answered this one.

I was born male-bodied and female mind.  I have always know that I wasn't like the other boys.  My friends have always been girls.

I went the typical male route, being married three times.  But they never lasted because I just did not feel right about who I was pretending to be.  I cross dressed to find some relief, even believing for a time I was just that.  But in time, I knew exactly who I was, a woman.

And now I live as I was born to, womanhood.

I don't know, as I was a baby at the time. :laugh:
That wasthen,  this is now, so what went before doesn't really matter all that much. I know who I am now.

"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
-Simone de Beauvoir

I am not a "woman," and do not believe that anyone really is, in the sense that "woman" is an impossible ideal, a target towards which "women" spend their entire lives fruitlessly running, or being pushed. Gender, to me, is individual; there are as many genders as there are people. I use female pronouns in everyday life, and present enough as female to give people something, at least, to latch on to. I sometimes dream of being quite feminine, and I certainly did so frequently as a child, but does that qualify me as "woman?" I don't think so.

I would have to say...neither.

Quote from: K8 on June 30, 2009, 08:07:42 PM
Me too.  I always thought I would be happier as a girl/woman but I could see I wasn't.  (Maybe I'm just too literal. :-\) 

I am now ten weeks into living fulltime as Katherine and am still not sure whether I was born a girl/woman or that I am or ever will be a "real" woman.  And I really don't care.  However, I do know now that I was right when I was 4 years old - I am happier as a girl/woman. ;)

- Kate

I wrote this almost 8 months ago.  Now, deeper into my transition, I have realized that I am a woman.  This isn't just something I want or that suits me – it is who and what I am. 

For me, transition has been a journey of discovery.  And this is one of the things I've discovered: Despite my anatomy and my upbringing, I really am a woman.

- Happily Kate

i was born with all of the male parts, but i am female

To me, this is one of those questions that is often asked, but is rarely phrased well enough for trans-folk to give a good answer.
.
It pairs two subjects (sex & gender) together under the term "female"...but it fails to make clear which subject is intended.  This plays to the general ignorance most non-trans have regarding sex and gender.  To many of them, there is no difference...they see the world in extremes of black and white...all male...or all female.
.
It's kind of like asking whether a mule is a donkey or a horse, and expecting that a simple one word "donkey/horse" answer will clarify things.  If anything, it would just confuse the issue even more...at least...until the audience is able to consider the possibility of an answer outside of the two extremes.
.
For me:  Male body, female gender.  Currently working on correcting the body.  That's how I was born.  Neither...and both.
.
(but please...don't call me a gender mule ;)  )

I chose "I'm not sure" simply because I don't know or care "how" I came to be. I'm just dealing with what I have now.

My mom told my therapist all the classic signs of a trans kid, of course in the late 80's, there wasn't any real knowledge of it, even with university of mn phs a short drive away.

yeah all the stuff to fix is annoying, but there are worse things I could do, like dwell on the past. :P

Quote from: Kay on February 21, 2010, 05:02:29 PM
To me, this is one of those questions that is often asked, but is rarely phrased well enough for trans-folk to give a good answer.
.
It pairs two subjects (sex & gender) together under the term "female"...but it fails to make clear which subject is intended.  This plays to the general ignorance most non-trans have regarding sex and gender.  To many of them, there is no difference...they see the world in extremes of black and white...all male...or all female.
.
It's kind of like asking whether a mule is a donkey or a horse, and expecting that a simple one word "donkey/horse" answer will clarify things.  If anything, it would just confuse the issue even more...at least...until the audience is able to consider the possibility of an answer outside of the two extremes.
.
For me:  Male body, female gender.  Currently working on correcting the body.  That's how I was born.  Neither...and both.
.
(but please...don't call me a gender mule ;)  )

What if you were a fabulous gender unicorn?
I myself am a gender narwhal.  ;D

Lulz aside, this is a good post, and I agree. I also think, though, that the people saying "it doesn't matter" have a point - it's not really about where we started - it's about where we are, and what will make us happy now and in the future.

The farther I live, beyond transition... the more I realize that I was always female. 

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 11, 2010, 03:28:47 AM
I am not a "woman," and do not believe that anyone really is, in the sense that "woman" is an impossible ideal, a target towards which "women" spend their entire lives fruitlessly running, or being pushed.

Very well said.

Quote from: Nero on March 05, 2010, 03:53:15 PM
Very well said.

I'm glad someone's with me on that.  ;D

Absolutely born female.

I's be a girl... LOL  :icon_chick:

Impossible to answer. I'm abstaining. Obviously I believe I was born female, unfortunately my confounded genetics said I was intersex and therefore somewhat inbetween.

Not a shred of doubt in my mind that I was born female.

I can but assume I was born with a female identity, as I don't know of a time when such wasn't the case.

without a point of referance I had no idea that I could be female in a male body until I was 9. Then I discovered the word that explained what I had been feeling all along. Transsexual.
I have always been female in spirit and mind, it just took me a point of referance to see it. I have always been female, even in my most male moments. Those moments were my mask hiding the girl within.

I've always felt female. I've been asked questions like this from people about a thousand and one times. I've ruminated and thought back to the earliest memories I had and they are feminine. I do not identify as a male but do/did have some great people in my life who I am proud to call friends that are/were male.

I was born with a male body. But my mind says I should have a female body. Despite that I am a woman now. Shrug.

Considering that gender is largely a social construct and I was socialised to be male, I definitely wanted to be female.

Well, I think there is a thing that is constructed that you can call gender. But I also think gender covers other things as well, non constructed things.

You could put this another way though casorse, I was socialised as a male too but I was a girl getting socialised as a male. I would have prefered to be socialised as the girl.

Quote from: Nicky on April 06, 2010, 07:57:42 PM
Well, I think there is a thing that is constructed that you can call gender. But I also think gender covers other things as well, non constructed things.

Okay, let's explore that. Take two human beings and strip them of all socialisation.
What determines their gender?

Exactly.

Perhaps they would create their own differentiation, I think they would, driven by some unseen force, might as well call it gender. (assuming they are of differening genders - but you might need more than two to get some good collective differentiation going)

Or lets say one had a male body and the other a female. The male one might have a desire to be like their female companion in body and voice and look. Does that make them 'female gendered'? I think it does. But without socialisation their would have no words for it, just an unnamed desire.

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 08:02:52 PM
Okay, let's explore that. Take two human beings and strip them of all socialisation.
What determines their gender?

That's a non-question.  It's like saying, pretend we have a circle with four sides -- is it still a circle?  There are sentences you can make with words that at first seem completely logical, but you're not really talking about anything grounded in reality.

I think it is a good thought exercise.

I good analogy might be sexuality. Take two people stripped of socialisation. Would their sexuality be a blank slate? I don't think anyone would expect that to be the case. I think they same could be said for your 'innate' sense of gender.

If there was no innate sense of 'gender', what makes us transgendered?

I think the 'gender' I am talking about is a different concept to the 'gender' casorse is talking about.

Socially what it means to be male or female is different depending on the culture. But there is a differentiation in every culture. I think this is because our internal gender. It is not so much how thing, but a differntiation thing. i.e. I am different from you but similar to these people, how can we express that? Tadaa social gender is born.

Quote from: Nicky on April 06, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Exactly.

Perhaps they would create their own differenciation, I think they would, driven by some unseen force, might as well call it gender. (assuming they are of differening genders - but you might need more than two to get some good collective differenciation going)

Or lets say one had a male body and the other a female. The male one might have a desire to be like their female companion in body and voice and look. Does that make them 'female gendered'? I think it does. But without socialisation their would have no words for it, just an unnamed desire.

You didn't really answer the question.
Without socialisation, what determines their gender?

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Post Merge: April 06, 2010, 08:21:27 PM

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Quote from: Ketsy on April 06, 2010, 08:14:36 PM
That's a non-question.  It's like saying, pretend we have a circle with four sides -- is it still a circle?  There are sentences you can make with words that at first seem completely logical, but you're not really talking about anything grounded in reality.

It is not a non-question.
It's an uncomfortable question, which you don't want to explore, so you're declaring it a non-question to avoid confronting it.

As I believe that gender is preset in the womb. It is hard wired and socilization does not matter.

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 08:20:07 PM
You didn't really answer the question.
Without socialisation, what determines their gender?

I thought I did.
They do themselves of course. In the absence of external guides they will make up what that means to them. I.e. they will socialise themselves.

I think you are talking about the expression of gender, which to me is flexible. But in the absence of socialisation this expression would not exist. But they will create it I think, driven by internal need.
Internally what determines it is brain stuff - physiological I think.

Just put on my mod hat here - please try not to make it personal casorse. Ketsy attacked your question, don't attack her personally back. Please PM me direct if you have an issue with this (you can do this now that you have 15 posts)

Cheers
Nicki

mod hat off

Quote from: cynthialee on April 06, 2010, 08:24:14 PM
As I believe that gender is preset in the womb.

There's certainly a lot of credibility to that theory.

QuoteIt is hard wired and socilization does not matter.

How does one express gender without socialisation?

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Post Merge: April 06, 2010, 06:32:56 PM

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Quote from: Nicky on April 06, 2010, 08:29:39 PM
I thought I did.
They do themselves of course. In the absence of external guides they will make up what that means to them.

So until they have manufactured a new set of social constructs, gender remains an intangible 'feeling'?

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Post Merge: April 06, 2010, 07:33:53 PM

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Nicki - just edited out the last bit, will talk to your through pm.

I think so, I think it would be an intangible feeling.

My feeling of being a woman is rather intangable. What do you think? Seems plausable to me and agrees with the idea of gender being hard wired.

Quote from: Nicky on April 06, 2010, 08:42:09 PM
I think so, I think it would be an intangible feeling.

My feeling of being a woman is rather intangable. What do you think? Seems plausable to me and agrees with the idea of gender being hard wired.

I think that as a child, I analysed (fairly unconsciously) the males and females around me and decided (unconsciously at first and later consciously) that I'd much rather be like the female than the males - that it was better to be female than male.
What caused my tiny brain to decide that being female was preferable is an exercise in wild speculation.
But I definitely wanted to be female.

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 08:20:07 PM
It is not a non-question.
It's an uncomfortable question, which you don't want to explore, so you're declaring it a non-question to avoid confronting it.

I have no discomfort with the question such as it is, and please don't make assumptions about me when you don't know me.

If you want to know my personal take on the subject, I personally don't believe that the idea of 'gender' or 'sex' as binary qualities accurately represent the reality of human experience. Personally I find that the behaviors that feel comfortable and natural to me are identified by society as 'female' behaviors, and that the way I would like my body to be matches up with what society calls 'female'.  But the question of 'was I born female?' doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  I was born me.  'female' is a word other people use to describe a set of behaviors and attributes, and you can scarcely find two people that agree on what all of those attributes are.  So from my perspective, 'male' and 'female', 'girl' and 'boy', 'man' and 'woman' are all just words we use out of convenience, rather than describing some essential quality of people.  You can call me a girl if you want and I'll be happy to take up that label, because I like the way the word sounds and I like a lot of the associations that come with it.  But 'girl' or 'woman' or whatever does not define me -- I define me.

Quote from: Ketsy on April 06, 2010, 08:47:14 PM
and you can scarcely find two people that agree on what all of those attributes are.

I respectfully disagree. I think it is extremely easy to find two people who agree on what those attributes are.
That is why we have such well defined gender stereotypes.

Hey good debate guys! Really enjoying it.

Just thinking back Casorce. At one point I did have a feeling that I wanted to be female. I was a little boy that did not feel I was a boy and wanted to be a girl.

But somehow my perception changed. Now I look back and I always was a female. K8 on this site was someone who seemed to have a similar shift in perception, as they mentioned earlier in this topic, it came as something of a revalation I think.

We should probably factor in perception here and perception can shift.

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 08:49:32 PM
I respectfully disagree. I think it is extremely easy to find two people who agree on what those attributes are.
That is why we have such well defined gender stereotypes.

I was particular about what I said:

"you can scarcely find two people that agree on what all of those attributes are"

Many people can agree that a particular quality is 'feminine', most people can agree on a number of qualities that are feminine, but few people will agree on every single quality that they consider feminine.

As for well-defined gender stereotypes, I disagree there.  I think there are well-defined personality stereotypes that can be divided along gender lines: the cheating husband, slutty bar girl, macho weightlifter, prim and proper librarian, ditzy blonde, butch dyke, and so on ad nauseum.

So there are behaviors and attributes that can be qualified as 'masculine' or 'feminine' based on the fact that they appear more frequently in one gender or the other, but it's not a clear cut definition that all girls are X and all guys are Y, because any time you try to make that definition there are a million examples of people that don't fit in.  This is the incredible spectrum of human diversity.  Dividing it in two, as male and female, is a matter of convenience.  It makes it easier to function in society for the most part, except when interacting with people who don't fit into the binary in the way that you expect them to.

Quote from: Ketsy on April 06, 2010, 09:25:22 PM
I was particular about what I said:

"you can scarcely find two people that agree on what all of those attributes are"

That can be applied to anything; it's difficult to find two people who agree on the minutiae of virtually any moderately complex issue.
However we very rarely examine the minutiae of such issues.
So I don't see how that is at all relevant.

QuoteMany people can agree that a particular quality is 'feminine', most people can agree on a number of qualities that are feminine, but few people will agree on every single quality that they consider feminine.

Which tells me that it is extremely easy to define someone or something as feminine.

QuoteAs for well-defined gender stereotypes, I disagree there.  I think there are well-defined personality stereotypes that can be divided along gender lines: the cheating husband, slutty bar girl, macho weightlifter, prim and proper librarian, ditzy blonde, butch dyke, and so on ad nauseum.

Those are sub-stereotypes within broader stereotypes.

QuoteSo there are behaviors and attributes that can be qualified as 'masculine' or 'feminine' based on the fact that they appear more frequently in one gender or the other, but it's not a clear cut definition that all girls are X and all guys are Y, because any time you try to make that definition there are a million examples of people that don't fit in.  This is the incredible spectrum of human diversity.  Dividing it in two, as male and female, is a matter of convenience.  It makes it easier to function in society for the most part, except when interacting with people who don't fit into the binary in the way that you expect them to.

I agree.

In a world devoid of gender demarcations (such as clothing identified as female/male or certain behaviours/activites gendered as male/female), do you think trans people would still exist?

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 09:41:41 PM
Which tells me that it is extremely easy to define someone or something as feminine.

Right, except the trouble comes when trying to define 'female' as a gender.  Plenty of guys are into 'feminine' things, and women into 'masculine' things, but despite this we generally say that guys are male and women are female -- except when people stop fitting into those boxes.  Some gay guys are into lots of feminine things, maybe even more feminine things than masculine things, and yet they identify as male.  How do we explain that?  If this essence of gender identity is not tied to the qualities that we normally divide up among people as feminine and masculine, what's the point of dividing those qualities up in the first place?  What does 'female' mean if it doesn't (necessarily) mean 'feminine'?

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 09:41:41 PM
That can be applied to anything; it's difficult to find two people who agree on the minutiae of virtually any moderately complex issue.
However we very rarely examine the minutiae of such issues.
So I don't see how that is at all relevant.

Exactly -- it's a moderately complex issue.  And yet many people will tell you it's simple (not that I agree with them): penis = man, vagina = woman.  If it's so complex, why the need to make it seem so simple?

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 09:41:41 PM
In a world devoid of gender demarcations (such as clothing identified as female/male or certain behaviours/activites gendered as male/female), do you think trans people would still exist?

That's a tricky question.  Is 'trans' short for 'transgender' or 'transsexual'?

Quote from: Ketsy on April 06, 2010, 09:56:59 PM
Some gay guys are into lots of feminine things, maybe even more feminine things than masculine things, and yet they identify as male.  How do we explain that?

By them enjoying being gendered as male and liking their penis a hell of a lot!

QuoteThat's a tricky question.  Is 'trans' short for 'transgender' or 'transsexual'?

For the purpose of the question: both.

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 10:07:07 PM
By them enjoying being gendered as male and liking their penis a hell of a lot!

Being gendered as male by who?  If by themselves, then what does that mean?  Or, if by others, then we're back to the situation where gender is defined by how others treat us, and hence a societal construction.

Quote from: casorce on April 06, 2010, 10:07:07 PM
For the purpose of the question: both.

Then we have to figure out what you mean by 'a world without gender demarcations'.  In my mind that means a world where the concept of 'gender' doesn't exist, and there is only the concept of biological sex.  In that world, 'transgender' isn't really a meaningful term.  As for 'transsexual', then to me that would mean someone who wanted the physical attributes of the opposite sex, and since that's generally part of what transsexual people in reality experience, then yes I think transsexual people would exist.

I'm not sure how there could be a world without gender demarcations, but with some concept of 'gender', but if you have some idea then feel free to fill me in.

Quote from: Ketsy on April 06, 2010, 11:42:09 PM

I'm not sure how there could be a world without gender demarcations, but with some concept of 'gender', but if you have some idea then feel free to fill me in.

We're slowly moving toward such a world.
Look at it this way: a world where there isn't any particular gender attached to any action or item of clothing - i.e. both men and women freely wear skirts and makeup, play football or box.

The fact that something's socially constructed doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or that it doesn't arise from a biological predisposition. Language, for instance, is socially constructed in its specifics - it's perhaps the ultimate cultural artifact - but our brains are naturally predisposed to learn it, create it, and work with it within a very particular non-arbitrary set of rules.

The specifics of gender performance and identity are arguably socially constructed. That doesn't mean gender doesn't exist, or that there's no biological reason for an individual human to identify with one side or the other of a binary gender system differentiated primarily by visible physical sex. As far as we know, all human societies are structured in more or less this way.

And humans are highly social animals that can't be studied effectively in isolation from our social environment. A human who isn't socialized around other humans isn't a healthy individual, and is most certainly not existing in their 'default' natural state.

I mean I definitely think that what we describe as 'gender' is something that exists, but I think that it's a complicated concept that in everyday life we reduce to a simple duality of boy/girl man/woman etc for sake of convenience.  Back to transsexuality and being 'born female' or 'born male' -- I believe I was born a certain way, and from experience I can describe that certain way as (mostly) matching a female gender, rather than my male biology.  But I'm wary of saying that I was born 'female' because I don't really know what that term means -- it strikes me as something of a comforting idealism rather than anything I could back up with rationality.  All I can definitively account for is the sense of incongruence/dysphoria/etc.

Quote from: Ketsy on April 07, 2010, 01:25:03 AM
I mean I definitely think that what we describe as 'gender' is something that exists, but I think that it's a complicated concept that in everyday life we reduce to a simple duality of boy/girl man/woman etc for sake of convenience.  Back to transsexuality and being 'born female' or 'born male' -- I believe I was born a certain way, and from experience I can describe that certain way as (mostly) matching a female gender, rather than my male biology.  But I'm wary of saying that I was born 'female' because I don't really know what that term means -- it strikes me as something of a comforting idealism rather than anything I could back up with rationality.  All I can definitively account for is the sense of incongruence/dysphoria/etc.

I somewhat agree with this.
I think there is definitely something in my biology that predisposes me towards questioning my birth assigned gender (otherwise any boy with strong female role models and weak male role models would end up trans).

I believe that there are some gender attributes that are linked to our sexual anatomy.  One example is that females are built to receive and males are built to prod, thrust, and enter.  To me, that has an effect on our innate sense of who we are, part of which is our gender identity.  The effects of hormones also play into this.  So there are physical differences between males and females.  (Yes, there is overlap of many attributes, but I'm talking generalities.)

Because of these physical differences between males and females, I think that our "trans-ness" is based on whether who we are inside matches who we are outside.  And if that is the case, there will be transgendered people regardless of the social construct we call gender.

I had a male anatomy when I was young, so people told me I was a boy.  But I identified with the girls and admired their anatomy, hoping my body would correct itself.  I wanted a female body so others would see I was a girl, but I also wanted a female body because I liked it better and thought it would suit me better.  Was I female or did I just want to be female?  It depends on interpretation.

I say I was male (anatomy) but a girl (mind and soul).  I was male but never a man.  Many people don't make that differentiation, but I've found it useful.

- Kate

Whoa, K8, hold up there! Women are built to receive and men are built to prod, thrust, and enter? Tell that to the bottomy gay guys, and to the dykes who like to use a strap-on! Tell that to every submissive man and every dominant woman! That just ain't right, I'm sorry. It plays into the whole "men are meant to lead, women are meant to follow" thing, and it's just not true at all.

/me reminds that while the sexuality labels are dependent on gender identity, as a whole, sexuality and gender are separate concepts
 :police:

Quote from: FlanHusky on April 07, 2010, 11:55:03 AM
/me reminds that while the sexuality labels are dependent on gender identity, as a whole, sexuality and gender are separate concepts
 :police:

Yes, thank you.

I was born a woman in mind and spirit, if not in body. Well, female, anyway. Nobody is born a woman, but becomes one with age and maturity. I say I was born female because all the attributes of my character and personality that align me with other women today were present from the very youngest ages, both in my recollection and in the recollection of those who knew me. If that weren't the case, I'm not sure that I could answer.

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on April 07, 2010, 11:41:13 AM
Whoa, K8, hold up there!

OK.  I didn't express myself well. :(

There are physical differences between males and females.  There are usually hormonal differences, too, which in turn create more physical differences.  I think that the combination of those physical differences and hormonal differences affect how people, on average, think and act.  We see this in the differences in male and female behaviour that transcend culture.

So, if you have the physical nature of one sex and the mind and soul of another – what we often refer to as gender – you are at odds with yourself.  My body and hormones were male, but my mind and soul – my gender identity – were female.  So, was I male or female?  The short answer is "yes".

To make it easier to make sense of it, I thought of myself as male (body) but not a man (not male in my mind and soul).  I don't think this would be different in another social structure.  Or, more strictly, it would be different but still present.  Therefore, to me being tansgendered is not a social construct or a failure to fit into a social construct but is inherent in my nature of having a male body and a female essence.

Or have I just muddied it more and should now just shut up? :P

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on April 07, 2010, 06:24:52 PM
OK.  I didn't express myself well. :(

There are physical differences between males and females.  There are usually hormonal differences, too, which in turn create more physical differences.  I think that the combination of those physical differences and hormonal differences affect how people, on average, think and act.  We see this in the differences in male and female behaviour that transcend culture.

So, if you have the physical nature of one sex and the mind and soul of another – what we often refer to as gender – you are at odds with yourself.  My body and hormones were male, but my mind and soul – my gender identity – were female.  So, was I male or female?  The short answer is "yes".

To make it easier to make sense of it, I thought of myself as male (body) but not a man (not male in my mind and soul).  I don't think this would be different in another social structure.  Or, more strictly, it would be different but still present.  Therefore, to me being tansgendered is not a social construct or a failure to fit into a social construct but is inherent in my nature of having a male body and a female essence.

Or have I just muddied it more and should now just shut up? :P

- Kate

I'm with you on this, Kate ... Of course there are exceptions to any and every generalization, but it seems to be pretty evident that all sorts of aspects of female and male behaviour match that physical/genital model of the man imposing and the woman receiving ...

For example, to take my own professional field in the media ... if you look at women's magazines, which are written by and for women, they are incredibly inwardly directed. The overwhelming emphasis is on the reader and her emotional, sensual, aesthetic experiences ... her beauty routine, diet, clothes, relationships ... and huge attention is paid to her feelings in every one of these contexts. Stars are constantly held up as examples to emulate by (as it were) bringing her into your life and yourself ... buy a handbag like this actress; go on a diet like this model; bring up your children as brilliantly as this singer, etc.

Men's publications, on the other hand, are much more outgoing, assertive, active ... No man's magazine ever suggests that its readers should copy a top entrepreneur's suit, or get their hair done like a world champion athlete .. these men are held up as examples of external achievement ... and there are lots of stories about money and how to make it, girls who'd be great to screw, sports, outdoor activities ... etc, etc.

This is a massively controversial field, for all sorts of political and scientific reasons ... but if you look at the ways in which we are rewarded by our nervous/hormonal systems, women get a rush of warm, cozy, affiliative oxytocin if they pick up a baby, or even see another woman's baby pics. Men get a massive adrenalin and testosterone boost from being on a winning sports team.

This leads me to wonder if we can ever claim to truly be women as long as we have male bodies, which still respond on a primal, physical level in male ways. The test - as you have clearly discovered, to judge from your many fascinating posts - is what happens during and after transition.

If HRT and SRS give one a feeling of wholeness, contentment and truth, then clearly one is a woman and was always meant to be one. But if they do not, then perhaps it was just a fantasy, or a desire that had no basis in reality.

I cannot honestly say right now: yes I am a woman. But i can say that all my life I have felt profoundly ill-at-ease with my male existence and absolutely certain that I would be happier if I could present myself to the world in female form ... and that's enough to be going on with!

Quote from: misty on June 13, 2012, 01:05:48 PM

I wasn't born female ........I just want to be female

.........does that make me a lesser female.....................or less right to be female ?

I think this fundamentally goes down to the divide between "born as, or chose to" which actually effects all of LGBT.

Born as implies that you had no choice in the matter and that it's being who you are, but can be twisted to say it's a "birth defects" and thus "curable"

Chose to implies that you have made a reasonable and logical or passionate choice to be what you want to be, but can be twisted to say that your choice is invalid or that it's thus something you can choose to not do.

So ultimately it's two coins with sides that people can twist, however regardless of your reasons, your past, your present, or your future, you are what you are and that nothing you believe makes what someone else believes any more or less valid.

If I had to say, I think I was born with the innate desire to be a girl, that it's something I have wanted since before I could remember, and that my proof is a picture where I dressed up in my sister's cute church dress when I was 2, x3 and that I have felt the desire to be female since I had the ability to understand what that was.

But I think if I had just made the choice now, that I wouldn't be lesser, and you aren't as well.

I always been female, 100%

In my own humble opinionmost of us are born females, what happens is it just takes a little bit longer for some of us to discover that we were misgender at birth, that is all.

I sincerely believe that "gender identity" is never a choice.

Quote from: misty on June 13, 2012, 01:05:48 PM

I wasn't born female ........I just want to be female

.........does that make me a lesser female.....................or less right to be female ?

No, it just makes you different from some other folks. Different doesn't mean lesser. All the colours of the rainbow are equally shiny. ;)

Quote from: SourCandy on June 13, 2012, 01:32:42 PMBorn as implies that you had no choice in the matter and that it's being who you are, but can be twisted to say it's a "birth defects" and thus "curable"

Is that twisted? I guess I'm twisted. I see my transsexualism the same way I see my migraines. Genetic trash that I wish I didn't have.

I don't feel the same about my queerness though. That doesn't seem defective to me because it doesn't cause pain.

Is it just me or is this thread full-on high-voltage terrifying?

I mean I never thought I was a woman (though I had lots of trouble getting the hang of being a boy. Might be just because I'm naturally clueless). But over the decades I've developed an intense desire to be one. If I could flip a switch and permanently change genders without hurting anybody I'd do it in a second.

Always been safe to have these feelings, since I knew I wasn't a woman, I wouldn't feel that overwhelming drive to transition.

Now I'm reading about people feeling just like me. And they transition. LIke I wish I could, but I don't know that I want to do that to my body and it would hurt some people I really love. I'm not usually one to avoid stuff, but I wish I hadn't read this thread.

Anyone else have that feeling?

Like anything else, transition has become a casual pursuit, a hobby, an interest, something to do (for many people).

Once people find out about something there will always be those who do it, even if it never would have occurred to them without seeing other people doing it.  Monkey see, monkey do.

As long as you are comfortable sticking with it then perhaps it may work for you and who is to say that de-transitioning later on is wrong?  Especially in an age when it is non-PC not to advocate pretty much anything.

Also what Peky said factors in.

Quote from: Axélle on June 24, 2012, 01:46:50 AM
So now, there is for me ONE HUGH ITEM that makes the difference here, and THAT - is GID.

I hear your story from so many other people that it could be said to be typical. So many Transsexuals talk about being close to suicide before their dysphoria drove them to transitioning as the only choice possible that allows them to stay alive.

I'm pretty sure that will never be me. I had my suicidal period and I will never let myself get to that point. I've learned too many ways of enjoying the world to want to check out early. I don't have the kind of body dysphoria that you and so many others describe.

But I'm hearing a kind of "minority report" from some. They didn't have body dysphoria, never had the strong sense that they were a woman, only that the answer to living the kind of life they wanted to live, lay in transition. All such people, all of them, make the point that the differences between their story and the typical story does not make them any less MtF than those people whose first sentence was "I'm a girl, not a boy."

I want to shut those people out, to pretend they don't exist, to say, I've never thought I was a girl, ergo I'm no kind of candidate for transition. But they do exist, and as I'm not really happy with how I'm fitting in as a male, I'm reluctantly giving them a frightened listen.

I haven't read through the entire thread, and I'm sure similar perspectives have been shared, but here's how I see it. I think the question is faulty. It's this either/or thinking that fuels the Blanchard's of the world. Gender identity is a complex combination of genetics and (I believe) environment, and I'm not sure that simple answers can be found. I feel like a woman inside, but I don't feel comfortable leaning only on genetics. I wasn't born a girl, but I'd suggest that NOBODY is born a girl or a boy. We're assigned a cultural role and we either grow into it or we don't.

Quote from: peky on June 24, 2012, 10:44:38 AMods yes)
Mom: Boys do not wear dresses! (sarcastically)
Me: I AM NOT A BOY!
Mom: OH, YES YOU ARE ! You have a penis !!!!
Me: Oh, do not worry, it will go away when I grow up

That is a cute story and my heart goes out to you as a child.

But how did you ever come up with the conclusion at four years of age that your penis would go away when you got older?  I don't think I even realized that women had vaginae until I was seven or eight.  How did you know about vaginae?  Sorry... maybe I should not ask. O_o ...

Then again maybe you had a very advanced kindergarten school system but if so where did you come up with the idea of body parts disappearing when you got older? O_O .  At four years of age had you been learning about sex reassignment surgery?

Quote from: agfrommd on June 24, 2012, 11:15:59 AM
But I'm hearing a kind of "minority report" from some. They didn't have body dysphoria, never had the strong sense that they were a woman, only that the answer to living the kind of life they wanted to live, lay in transition. All such people, all of them, make the point that the differences between their story and the typical story does not make them any less MtF than those people whose first sentence was "I'm a girl, not a boy."

The human condition is a funny thing.  I remember taking hormones and thinking that they were causing me to prefer the company of men (sexually).  But I had forgotten my past.  I had forgotten who I was.  When I was little my mother accused me of talking and acting like a "little queer" and a "->-bleeped-<-got" (her words).  She was concerned what complete strangers and neighbors might think of me.  She tried to scare me into acting more masculine and it worked, I mean my own mother was shaming me and causing me to fear not being accepted, being singled out and attacked.  And then my father got me to start lifting weights and kept telling me to hold up my shoulders and stick my chest out.  Prior to that I had been sleeping over at male friends houses, engaging with them in sexual activity where I essentially took a more feminine role.  It may not have been right and perhaps it was twisted but it felt right.

But then I was ashamed of having done that.  I thought I would burn in Hell for all of eternity if I continued and I had to be straight.  Fast forward many years and I actually fooled myself into thinking I liked women.  Even though sex with women caused me to go into a deep depression and I knew I could never get married.  I tricked myself into thinking I was normal.

I barely remember my childhood.  The truth is that we only remember little snippets of the past and each time we refer those little snippets the narrative changes a little.  My father told me (again) recently how my grandmother used to always say I was so pretty that I should have been a girl.  But I don't remember that.  It probably upset me at the time and maybe I blocked it out.

When I try to remember the past as someone who transitioned I interpret those vague little snippets a certain way.  I do remember seeing my mother's shoes in her closet and trying them on.  If you had asked me if that had any significance when I was trying so hard to be normal I might have repressed that memory.  As someone who had just begun transition I might have used that incident to justify my being trans or whatever.  Sometimes when you are outside and it is cloudy it means shade, if you just painted your house it means rain.  It is difficult to find meaning in the past, instead I would focus on your intention.  Do what you think is right and if it feels like you then go with it.  If you think it is something you can maintain for the long haul then have at it.

I didn't have body dysphoria, I only had SRS because I didn't know what else to do at the time and my bank offered me a loan.  What I had was a very strong need to interact as female.  I could have kept my penis and been damn happy except I didn't know what else to do at the time and I had the money so I had SRS, and I am glad I did because I didn't realize how much one little surgery that almost no one sees could change my life so drastically and create opportunities.  Also I am not the sharpest person in the world and it took me a while to realize that it was my penis and testes that had stolen my life from me.  I never had any magical genital hatred.  I did hate how sexually driven I was.  I hated being a slave to male sexuality.  I hated that a lot.  I feel so much better.  If back then someone had taken me into the future to show me what life would have been like after transition and then told me I had to wait another fifteen years or however long...  I think that would be like going to a Heaven Dimension and then waking up in your casket back on earth, having to claw your way through the lid and dig yourself out of your grave just to live a Hell-like, miserable existence as a zombie.  Kind of like that episode in Buffy the Vampire Slayer where they bring her back to life and leave her to find her way out of her grave after tearing her from a Heaven dimension.

So there you have it.

And I don't think many of us really understand why we do what we do.  I think most of us tend to make sense of our motivations after the fact and there is a kind of bias there.

Oh... and it is generally accepted as truth that the dysphoria worsen's with time.

I know I was not born female, but it took me 30+ years to actually have the courage to do what is right and become one.  SRS however is not for me, as I am who I am :)

When my ability to self-determine, my self-image, and my sense of self was born, it was born female. And it wants to be able to be what it is.

So... both.

For years I would have insisted that I am a female goddamit. But in learning about the mahu status of Hawaiian culture and how they are thought of as encompassing both male and female within one person, I think that realistically that describes me - and probably the majority of transgender people - much better than a single gender. I identify as female primarily, but I certainly do have components to my personality that would typically be considered male. I think I encompass both genders within myself, but I am primarily female.

Quote from: Sephirah on June 26, 2012, 11:08:38 AM
When my ability to self-determine, my self-image, and my sense of self was born, it was born female. And it wants to be able to be what it is.

So... both.

I am with 100% on this one. Even at the peak my "macho" career, it was a girl beating the boys  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

To have abdicated my femalenss would have been akin to death

I feel that if I had been born female, I probably wouldn't be needing to go through transition and all that. Just my thinking. I was born male bodied with a mind that hasn't seemed to have liked that fact much since as long as I can remember. I personally don't feel as though I will ever be actually female no matter what I do due to genetics and how my body started out and what happened to it before it was steered in a more desirable direction. Currently, I even see my self as more of a thing than anything else, especially being pre-op, but I rarely voice it and pretty much never explain myself to people irl as its usually a complete waste of my time and theirs.

Quote from: misty on November 09, 2012, 01:59:18 PM
Hello.........I started this post a long time ago now..........feeling rather ancient now  :) :) :)

Need to tell you Misty, this thread changed my whole outlook on being Transgender. I blogged about it a few months ago (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,122382.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,122382.0.html)). Before I read it, I didn't consider myself truly transgendered, since I only wanted to be a woman, but never felt like one. This thread helped me understand I could be Trans in spite of that. It got me into gender therapy and got my life moving forward.

Thank you.

I'm very aware of my male origin. I was born male and I acknowledged that growing up.  I actually I had no problem with being a little boy either.  I was simply a boy that liked to dress up in girl's clothes, play with dolls, listen to Britney Spears and play with makeup.  I also liked action movies and toy cars.  I had two sides I guess.  I usually hung out with the girls and rarely with the guys (because I got along with the girls better growing up, sports were not my cup of tea).  It wasn't until a few years ago when I was in early high school that I started to realize that living as a guy wasn't my thing so I started to experiment with gender-fluidity and androgyny.  This past Spring is when I decided that I wanted to start a serious transition into the female sex and so here I am!

So in an essence, I was born a boy, grew up like a little girl and a little boy, and am now becoming a woman.  I get to experience the best of both worlds, I guess!

Yes I was born female but with a surgically correctable birth defect that I can't wait to be rid of.