somebody please post it when it's available -- just watched it on SNL. Offensive.
Wow. I'm watching Saturday Night Live on Hulu right now and I just saw the bit. I'm so disappointed with SNL... I've loved this show for years and now this? I immediately searched SNL over her just to see if anyone else had caught the skit and was as pissed off as I am. No part of that was funny and I don't understand how they could get away with that... so much for including the "T" in media's LGBTQ non-discrimination efforts.
I was so angry I teared up a little.
Please do something about it! Please help it only takes a moment.
http://transgenderhate.blogspot.com/2011/01/nbc-snl-skit-incredibly-offensive.html (http://transgenderhate.blogspot.com/2011/01/nbc-snl-skit-incredibly-offensive.html)
Saturday Night Live - Once Daily Estro-Maxx [HQ] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-lQm9RpQ2s#ws)
Wow.. I can't believe they took it so far! That goes beyond a joke.
Once again I am feeling somewhat confused with my own reaction. I laughed yet I felt this skit bite into my psyche. I feel that even though it is offensive, like most of the jokes on SNL, it feels offensive because we are on the other side of this joke!
I relentlessly believe that if something is made fun of, poked at, it most definitely becomes everyday topic and subject which became mainstream occurance. And I am not talking The Joke but the substance, the core subject, which is ->-bleeped-<-. When Polish people immigrated to America in thousands pre II worldwar Polish jokes tore into polish psyche, painting a picture of stupidity and yet when you think of Apple computers as ingenious and Steve Wozniak (Polak) as Genius, you see my point. Same goes for Irish, Protestants, Catholics and so on and then we arrive at present day and emergence of ->-bleeped-<-. Oh yes, bring it on, how many transsexuals does it take to change the bulb.......................I do want to see those jokes because their emergence signals emergence of us as new, valid social group.
alexia -- understood, but there was also the necessity of telling people the polish jokes were in bad taste.
"Hello,
I know I'm supposed to tune in to SNL with full possession of my sense of humor, but all I can say is I was well-offended last night by the Estro-Maxx ad.
I'm certain 20 years from now this segment will play like a race film, and be akin to performing in blackface, but in the meantime it takes some marginalized human beings like me to remind you cultural influencers when you are obliviously repugnant. Last night was one occasion for sure.
sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
The only real issues I have is what any transfolk with low self-esteem would do when they see this. Also, I am wondering if this skit will just propagate misunderstanding about transsexuals amongst American society, which is generally behind the times when it comes to being accepting.
Quote from: alexia elliot on January 30, 2011, 12:48:38 PM
Once again I am feeling somewhat confused with my own reaction. I laughed yet I felt this skit bite into my psyche. I feel that even though it is offensive, like most of the jokes on SNL, it feels offensive because we are on the other side of this joke!
I relentlessly believe that if something is made fun of, poked at, it most definitely becomes everyday topic and subject which became mainstream occurance. And I am not talking The Joke but the substance, the core subject, which is ->-bleeped-<-. When Polish people immigrated to America in thousands pre II worldwar Polish jokes tore into polish psyche, painting a picture of stupidity and yet when you think of Apple computers as ingenious and Steve Wozniak (Polak) as Genius, you see my point. Same goes for Irish, Protestants, Catholics and so on and then we arrive at present day and emergence of ->-bleeped-<-. Oh yes, bring it on, how many transsexuals does it take to change the bulb.......................I do want to see those jokes because their emergence signals emergence of us as new, valid social group.
I... I kinda agree, because it's getting the issue out there.
I, personally, sit in the 'Not Offended' pool. I think nothing should be exempt from comedy, and let's be frank, Saturday Night Live isn't very subtle. Everything I've seen of it is controversial and 'attacks' issues. How many people who were offended by that sketch laughed at songs like 'Jizz In My Pants', a song about premature ejaculation? I know I sure did. Or let's even widen the pool - How many people offended by that laugh at racist or sexist jokes? At jokes about people from other countries? SNL doesn't, from my experience, single anyone out. Like a lot of controversial comedies or sketch shows, it goes after anything and everything.
As one wise man I knew had in his signature;
"If you can't laugh at yourself, you might just be missing the biggest joke of all".
Sorry, ladies, but I'm not offended. I support you all reporting it if you're offended, though.
P.S. Yes, I'm aware my views are controversial themselves.
Free speech is free speech. I personally didn't find the skit funny, but some people might, and they should have the right to say what they please.
I just sent emails to NBC and SNL. I did not find the commercial funny in the least bit.
And as to free speech, it falls under the category of hate speech. If they were showing a Black man changing into a White man, they would be shut down by the FCC and banned from ever being shown.
Your right to free speech ENDS at my ears.
SNL : Estro-maxx (1-29-11) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8djWhqZ4hu4#ws)
For anyone who wants to see it. I am just now watching it for the first time.
Edit: Sorry Jennifer beat me to it, I guess it didn't load before. Or I'm just blind, which is extremely plausible.
Wow, yup, pretty damned offensive.
That made me laugh my ass off. So offensive in so many ways though...us tgs dont even look like that!!!
It's stuff like this that keeps the general opinions of TG people low...
Jerry Springer is bad enough, now SNL is spreading this crap....
Quote from: Janet Lynn on January 30, 2011, 02:08:16 PM
If they were showing a Black man changing into a White man, they would be shut down by the FCC and banned from ever being shown.
Actually Eddie Murphy did this skit.
@japple/janet lynn
Yes, Eddie Murphy did appear in that skit.
I think this case is different because there were no actual MtF's that consented to appearing in the skit. It was just a direct attack by sources that had no experience of what it's like to be trans, instead of someone choosing to make fun of the group they actually did represent and knew something about.
I didn't realize SNL was still on air. I would rate that a 5/10. It was mediocre at being funny/offensive.
In the first airing of SNL after 9/11 Rudy Giuliani answers, "why start now?" After Lorne Michaels asks, "is it okay to be funny?"
Quote from: Janet Lynn on January 30, 2011, 02:08:16 PM
I just sent emails to NBC and SNL. I did not find the commercial funny in the least bit.
And as to free speech, it falls under the category of hate speech. If they were showing a Black man changing into a White man, they would be shut down by the FCC and banned from ever being shown.
Your right to free speech ENDS at my ears.
,
Hate speech is protected under the first amendment, as long as it doesn't incite imminent lawless action (Brandenburg v. Ohio,) As it should be, in my opinion. Western culture is built on the bedrock of free thought and speech, and to censor someone for saying something that rubs us the wrong way is morally incontrovertible. To quote Noam Chomsky, "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
Quote from: spacepilot on January 30, 2011, 06:09:04 PM
I think this case is different because there were no actual MtF's that consented to appearing in the skit. It was just a direct attack by sources that had no experience of what it's like to be trans...
How do we know if none of those actors or writers are trans?
I replied in one of the other couple threads started about this. Good satire has a hint of truth, and people need to see that they were making fun of M2F HRT using some correct terminology. Kind of amazing. It's a fake ad for a fake product. Like Jewish Jeans or Mom Jeans. They showed their male actors as M2F parodies, pre-op changing their bodies with hormones. That's pretty remarkable. A mainstreaming of transsexuality. They treated cross gender hormones with the same tongue and cheek approach that they'd talk about cellulite, Viagra, or sagging butts.
Does this make late transitioning M2F transsexuals feel uncomfortable? Of course, but culturally it's disarming. Humor is great.
What does the public see at the end of this skit? What is their thoughts on transsexual women now? Men in skirts. Dramatizing the facial hair at the end was what did it for me. What they are saying here is that no matter what transsexuals do they are just men in skirts. I am very deeply offended by that. If they ended it better it might have actually been okay.
So, after something like this will it be more likely to get a trans-inclusive ENDA passed in the U.S. or maybe harder? Or maybe trans-inclusion just gets ripped out because the public doesn't want men with beards and skirts in the women's bathrooms.
Well as Helena Janet and I discovered in an interesting offline debate earlier the "British" decoding of that sketch is rather different to the "American" one.
Maybe in the UK we are just more used to that sort of ironic and slightly mocking humour because we have Emily & Florence in Little Britain, and the transsexual taxi driver in League of gentlemen, both of which shows have pushed the envelope far further than this.
So I won't comment on the offensiveness or otherwise to an American audience, I will take your word on that.
Instead I would just repeat what I said in another thread, about using reverse psychology. In a way silly OTT and grotesque misrepresentations like that ironically improve your invisibility because if the public are really so moronic as to think that that is what a real Transwoman looks like then they sure as heck ain't going to spot, or out, any of you in a million years.
Look at your avatars folks. You all look like normal women. NONE of you looks even remotely like anyone in that sketch, so there is simply no way that anyone would confuse any of you for that.
I have some mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I don't think we're exempt from this sort of thing. On the other hand they probably should have done more research on the actual outcome of HRT. It certainly doesn't leave one looking like a man in a dress.
Does this hurt our position? Certainly not. SNL is simply a satire; a reflection of our current mode of thinking. The show really does nothing to influence it.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on January 30, 2011, 08:20:52 PM
I have some mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I don't think we're exempt from this sort of thing. On the other hand they probably should have done more research on the actual outcome of HRT. It certainly doesn't leave one looking like a man in a dress.
Does this hurt our position? Certainly not. SNL is simply a satire; a reflection of our current mode of thinking. The show really does nothing to influence it.
I couldn't disagree with you more. We saw what SNL did to Sarah Palin. Of course her base wasn't phased but the rest of the country most certainly was impacted by it. The same can be said about this skit.
Now I have to walk through my campus knowing a lot of people watched that skit and are now looking at me and seeing a man in a skirt. Maybe I am a bit more sensitive than some but to me this is a real issue.
I had mixed feelings watching this. I do have low self esteem so watching this didn't help.
I was shocked when it first started but then I found myself laughing, then in shock, then laughing....
I find it remarkable that the writers new somewhat the regiment for transitioning.
One reason I don't find it offensive; is how many ts's do you see in a dress and full beard. They made a parody of ts's not a mockery.
I would of found it more offensive if they used actually ts's, although I don't know any that would of sold their soul to SNL.
I started out being offended, got real offended by Fred Armason on the exercise machine, laughed at some of it despite myself, and finally was horrified by the overall impression it left.
They don't make fun of other people with birth defects.
Sarah Palin might get skewered, but she has other forums to show her other aspects. There is a balance between ridicule and serious treatment in the overall media-space, so satire is fair. The problem here is that we get nothing but bad press and bad media, which makes satire mean-spirited and hurtful.
I have been working to get my girlfriend to believe that cis-people respect trans-people and take us seriously, not like in the bad-ole days. Then this crap sets us back 20 years of social evolution.
I support SNL's right to make that skit, but I abhor their choice to do it.
Quote from: rejennyrated on January 30, 2011, 07:26:46 PM
In a way silly OTT and grotesque misrepresentations like that ironically improve your invisibility because if the public are really so moronic as to think that that is what a real Transwoman looks like then they sure as heck ain't going to spot, or out, any of you in a million years.
Look at your avatars folks. You all look like normal women. NONE of you looks even remotely like anyone in that sketch, so there is simply no way that anyone would confuse any of you for that.
Crisis averted! I hope they do look for that, I will definitely be perfectly blended in. I was so disgusted and discouraged. I'm glad there are ladies around with level heads to keep me up. :)
Quote from: Lairiana on January 30, 2011, 01:08:09 PM
I... I kinda agree, because it's getting the issue out there.
I, personally, sit in the 'Not Offended' pool. I think nothing should be exempt from comedy, and let's be frank, Saturday Night Live isn't very subtle. Everything I've seen of it is controversial and 'attacks' issues. How many people who were offended by that sketch laughed at songs like 'Jizz In My Pants', a song about premature ejaculation? I know I sure did. Or let's even widen the pool - How many people offended by that laugh at racist or sexist jokes? At jokes about people from other countries? SNL doesn't, from my experience, single anyone out. Like a lot of controversial comedies or sketch shows, it goes after anything and everything.
As one wise man I knew had in his signature; "If you can't laugh at yourself, you might just be missing the biggest joke of all".
Sorry, ladies, but I'm not offended. I support you all reporting it if you're offended, though.
P.S. Yes, I'm aware my views are controversial themselves.
I'm with Lairiana on this one. I grew up socialized that nothing is sacred and
nothing should be exempt from humor. Different religions, cultures, races, genders - it's only fair that one either makes fun of none of them (thus being humorless. meh.) or all of them, and I think the latter is the appropriate and healthy response.
SNL is, as others have said, satire. Whether the jokes are funny or not (or even in good taste) is really beside the question - there's nothing preventing them from airing these ads, nor should there be.
I make fun of transsexuals all the time. I also make fun of gay people, straight people, white people, black people, hispanic people, asian people, old people, young people, and innumerable others. And I think that's perfectly okay, and even healthy, because I still view these groups with the same respect as I would view any other.
The jokes may not be very good, but SNL isn't one to discriminate - they're consistent in making fun of basically every group under the sun, and thus I don't have a problem with this ad.
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 30, 2011, 09:08:11 PM
One reason I don't find it offensive; is how many ts's do you see in a dress and full beard. They made a parody of ts's not a mockery.
Right. Did you notice that no one was wearing a dress? No one was a "guy in a skirt" either. People were seeing what they wanted to see. I thought that as satire, as a fake product parody, they had exaggeration but also a kind of insight. Correct terms, airport scanner, disarmed tone, tagline "Nature got in your way, your estrogen pill shouldn't." Someone else said they were "Macho guys"..I didn't see that either. They didn't do it with John Hamm.
They could have skewered late-in-life transitioners, instead they did an over the top parody that mainstreams transsexuality.
My first exposure to TS was "Silence of the Lambs" so maybe my perspective is off. I think this sort of things is kind of cool. We have arrived.
It's really no worse than Miss Garison in Southpark. I think it's kinda important to be able to laugh at yourself.
Quote from: rejennyrated on January 30, 2011, 07:26:46 PM
Maybe in the UK we are just more used to that sort of ironic and slightly mocking humour because we have Emily & Florence in Little Britain, and the transsexual taxi driver in League of gentlemen, both of which shows have pushed the envelope far further than this.
This might be one of the reasons I laughed so hard. I'm fond of British humor... in small amounts. But I noticed that British humor rubs a lot of Americans the wrong way.
I also thought that this skit was making fun of drug advertising more than it was making fun of transsexuals, even though it was making fun of both of them at the same time.
I do agree with some other members that a skit like this is devastating to transsexuals with low self-esteem or severe dysphoria problems. But what can we do? I wouldn't want to limit free speech by banning all satire. At the same time, I can't console every single transsexual who might happen to view this commercial.
I love satire. It is my favorite type of comedy. But all satire inevitably succeeds by riding something or someone into the ground. But I don't think censoring it is the answer. That would not be a modest proposal. (see what I did there?)
Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 31, 2011, 09:17:13 AM
This might be one of the reasons I laughed so hard. I'm fond of British humor... in small amounts. But I noticed that British humor rubs a lot of Americans the wrong way.
I also thought that this skit was making fun of drug advertising more than it was making fun of transsexuals, even though it was making fun of both of them at the same time.
I do agree with some other members that a skit like this is devastating to transsexuals with low self-esteem or severe dysphoria problems. But what can we do? I wouldn't want to limit free speech by banning all satire. At the same time, I can't console every single transsexual who might happen to view this commercial.
I love satire. It is my favorite type of comedy. But all satire inevitably succeeds by riding something or someone into the ground. But I don't think censoring it is the answer. That would not be a modest proposal. (see what I did there?)
That's a pretty good summary of what I deliberately wasn't saying because I didn't want to upset anyone. I think you and I have pretty much similar views on this one. I can see that people don't like it and I would not want anyone to be offended, but from a personal POV I would actually have found the sketch much much more offensive if the obviously fake trans characters had looked anything like the real thing.
The fact that they were evidently grotesques and NOT even close to the reality of what they were supposed to be, for me, made the whole joke be about the fake nature of advertising and the ultra low intelligence morons who actually BELIEVE what they see in adverts is in any sense real, rather than the so called trans characters who were just there to make the point that it was all a gross distortion of the truth.
All advertising is fundamentally fake, often the products are fake too, always the people selling the products are actors who are pretending (usually very badly) to be something they are not... and yet we the audience fall for it and we buy the useless overpriced rubbish they are selling.
Seen through British eyes, the joke was indeed much more aimed at the idiot advertisers and the fools who get taken in by them, than at any real trans person. In Britain I doubt whether this would even have been noticed. We take that sort of irreverent humour for granted. It is on our screens every hour of every day, just like we don't worry about nudity or swearing to the same degree that you seem to. On British TV you can even show full on full frontal nudity on a mainstream free to air channel after 9pm.
But I am genuinely saddened that people were offended by it. That is obviously not something which I would wish to see happening. The only thing is, if you ever come to the UK, do be very careful what you choose to watch on TV or you're unfortunately going to spend a lot of time being shocked and offended!
I have yet to meet someone who thinks of me as a man in a dress. I will sometimes show people an old picture of myself because to me it's as mundane as going on a diet. SNL has done plenty of skits about people with birth defects. There was the one with Betty White where Kristen Wigg was the odd sister of the bunch (weird prosthetics and not really that bright). We're going to get made fun of. Everyone does. Coffee Talk anyone?
Quote from: long.897 on January 30, 2011, 06:27:47 PM
,
Hate speech is protected under the first amendment, as long as it doesn't incite imminent lawless action (Brandenburg v. Ohio,) As it should be, in my opinion. Western culture is built on the bedrock of free thought and speech, and to censor someone for saying something that rubs us the wrong way is morally incontrovertible. To quote Noam Chomsky, "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
We do not have the power to 'censor' anything from SNL. But we damned sure have the right to speak out and to protest.
Quote from: rejennyrated on January 30, 2011, 07:26:46 PM
Well as Helena Janet and I discovered in an interesting offline debate earlier the "British" decoding of that sketch is rather different to the "American" one.
I also think that from a dominant cultural discourse point of view, that kind of sketch actually shows how safe and non threatening being TS is viewed in terms of the status Q. Basically it means the long battle is near enough won.
Quote from: rejennyrated on January 31, 2011, 09:48:35 AM
I can see that people don't like it and I would not want anyone to be offended, but from a personal POV I would actually have found the sketch much much more offensive if the obviously fake trans characters had looked anything like the real thing.
You just said exactly what I was thinking after I replied to this thread. If the actors in the sketch had looked or seemed like they were actually transsexuals in real life, I don't think the skit would have been very funny. The humor factor seems to be playing on how unrealistic it all is.
QuoteThe fact that they were evidently grotesques and NOT even close to the reality of what they were supposed to be, for me, made the whole joke be about the fake nature of advertising and the ultra low intelligence morons who actually BELIEVE what they see in adverts is in any sense real, rather than the so called trans characters who were just there to make the point that it was all a gross distortion of the truth.
That was my interpretation as well. The fake trans characters were just a backdrop to make fun of drug advertising. Even REAL drug commercials are funny because they are so ludicrous. They show you people having a good time and relaxing, and then they have some announcer talking really fast over fine print about a dozen different side effects, most of which are WORSE than the condition the drugs are designed to treat to begin with. As soon as I saw the beginning of the sketch, it was obvious that the real butt of the joke was meant to be drug advertising, not the trans characters in the sketch.
Hey ladies. I'm not really sure how I feel about this but, then again, the skit wasn't directed at me.
But my dad gave me words of wisdom when I was a child. I grew up in a Jewish household. When I first starting hearing Jewish jokes, I was unable to see the humor because I felt like they were making fun of me personally. Then my dad told me something I still remember to this day; he said "when you laugh at and make fun of yourself, you take the power to hurt away from others" or something along those lines.
Now I know that gender identity is different from religion but, in my mind at least, the principle still follows. I hope I didn't offend anybody because that was not my intention at all.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
-- Mahatma Gandhi
So, maybe the battle for general acceptance is 2/3 over? I was slack-jawed, but couldn't help chuckling a bit. How ridiculous this is! Having said that, I could see how this hit a nerve with some folks, especially those who are insecure about their appearance.
But another kernel of truth to be taken from this is that HRT is not magic; a healthy dose of "realistic expectations" is sometimes unfortunate but necessary. Further, a successful transition is not made by HRT alone.
Quote from: Dana Lane on January 31, 2011, 11:15:30 AM
We do not have the power to 'censor' anything from SNL. But we damned sure have the right to speak out and to protest.
Which is absolutely true. Protests are a wonderful way to convey a message, but claiming that the skit should be banned because it constitutes hate speech is entirely over the line.
Quote from: KillBelle on January 30, 2011, 02:23:46 PM
That made me laugh my ass off. So offensive in so many ways though...us tgs dont even look like that!!!
My first impression was that it was really funny, sorry. If we can't laugh about ourselves its a bad thing. I have come through some grotty stuff as most if not all of us have had/are going through but I still found it funny and well, we are being noticed. It is an exaggeration to be true but that's humour.
Stardust
Quote from: Brent123 on January 31, 2011, 11:47:41 AMThen my dad told me something I still remember to this day; he said "when you laugh at and make fun of yourself, you take the power to hurt away from others" or something along those lines.
Ding! When an insult goes form "I want to punch your face you homo pervert pedophile ->-bleeped-<-got" to "I hope you're using Estro-Maxx.' Win.
I can understand where this is a touchy subject, but along with many others I have to agree that humor is the best way to break through serious situations. SNL is not always tasteful, per se, but to be honest I don't think that their aim is ever to offend (though sometimes that is the end result). I think that it's bad for us to take ourselves seriously all the time. SNL tends to poke fun at everyone from the WASP-esque families to the flamboyantly gay men who live in the Chelsea area of NYC. We are all human, and we have to be able to laugh through things, especially the things that most people don't see eye to eye on. Humor usually breeds discourse, discourse fuels change.
During the election Sarah Palin was constantly the butt of many jokes and many uber conservatives were offended, there were African American's that were offended because Fred Armison often portrayed Barack Obama (though he is not an African American himself). During the election SNL caught a lot of slack from the Republican party because they are staffed with such liberal writers. With this commercial someone mentioned that they did use quite a bit of terminology that the general population doesn't typically throw around, and to be honest it wouldn't surprise me if one of their staff writers was TG/TS. I don't see that work space as being one that would be exclusionary in the least.
At the end of the day, the writers have done their job. In their business if people aren't talking about the skits that they wrote, or if they weren't memorable, they won't be working for long.
Quote from: Dana Lane on January 30, 2011, 08:45:33 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. We saw what SNL did to Sarah Palin. Of course her base wasn't phased but the rest of the country most certainly was impacted by it. The same can be said about this skit.
Now I have to walk through my campus knowing a lot of people watched that skit and are now looking at me and seeing a man in a skirt. Maybe I am a bit more sensitive than some but to me this is a real issue.
Sarah Palin wasn't ridiculed because of SNL, she was ridiculed because her IQ is equivalent to that of a bag of oranges. She was unable to name a SINGLE SCOTUS case excluding Roe v. Wade, she openly admitted that she didn't know what the vice president DID, and her understanding of science is laughable. SNL may have given the public some funny sound bites, but if she hadn't made a fool of herself already there'd be nothing TO caricature.
I don't understand what the humourous component of this skit was supposed to be.
It's really no different to making a 'humourous' advert about chemotherapy and showing bald people with tumours and lesions.
What is interesting to me is that this is the second time in the same week that I've participated in a discussion about satire/making fun of a group of people. The first time, it was someone who got upset that he made fun of gay people and they were too sensitive. This time, it is the transgender community, particularly MTFs, who were the target.
Nothing like having the group targeted shift to see if you still stand by your own test.
My problem with the guy who was making fun of gay people is that he confused "satire" with "making fun of." Satire presumes there is actually a joke or satirical situation in there, not just a list or portrayal of stereotypes or negative comments about the group. Making fun of is NOT the same as satire.
This SNL sketch is making fun of MTFs. It is not satiring transsexuals at all. There is no joke besides the fact that MTFs are men transitioning to be women.
It *is* satiring drug commercials in the States. That pseudo-computer scan image of the body comes directly from late night drug commercials. The non-warning/warning at the end is satirizing the side effects warnings of drug commercials (e.g., taking a drug for an erection will give you an erection!). Etc.
The problem I have is that there is no reason that the satire of the drug commercial needed to be combined with making fun of transsexuals. You could have inserted ANY targeted group and treatment and used them as the example. They *didn't* use cancer patients and cancer drugs, nor did they use drugs for other diseases like Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or MS - illnesses that all affect white, upper-middle class, men and women who are viewed as "normal."
The only "joke" to the audience came from men pretending to be women, men with tits, men having a long wig and big woman's butt, etc.
To me, that's not satire. That's making fun of trans people without having any other joke to it there.
Wow... that commercial was hilarious! I absolutely loved it!
So... what was the problem with it? Did it *really* make fun of transsexuals? Was any of the information inaccurate? I could tell that they went the extra mile to satirize drug company commercials using transsexualism as a backdrop without really being disrespectful. Do we all look like that? No. Do some of us look like that? Yep. One of the things that absolutely scared me off transitioning when I was 22 was meeting this 50 year old mtf working at Borders who told me that no one could tell she was a transsexual, but it was so painfully obvious... That's a moot point, however.
Ask yourself what offended you about this commercial. Did you see a little bit of yourself in the satire? Good. That's what satire does. Is it annoying that we take so many pills? Yep. In our earlier periods of transition, do we look awkward with our confusing gender cues? Yep. Now, here's a really big question: In an SNL skit that you find funny, is whatever they are making fun of better or worse than the commercial you have a gripe about? I really feel that they made an effort to not pick on us as a community, but definitely make fun of the situations we find ourselves in sometimes. I'm sorry if you can't find humor in that...
Lets face it, the idea of a person transitioning and into HRT wearing a beard or mustache is simply ludicrus, and I think that's what they were going at. It is a parody.
This just hits a home because of the topic. They've been making fun of Gays and just about anyone else for years, transgendered are just not used to the attention. I take it as a positive that there is enough recognition nationally to be part of a parody. Look at is as progress and consider the source.
Someone made a great point. This is a satire of pharmaceutical comercials with MTF Transsexuals as subject. As typical, the parody is to the extreme.
I am just curious, out of all of those defending this skit how many are full time or plan to go full time? I am not trying to prove a point but I need to wrap my brain around this.
Yesterday at work and walking home I felt like a walking target and was wondering who had seen it. I am a bit mortified knowing that at least some of the people I work with have seen it. It caused me significant anxiety.
Quote from: Dana Lane on February 01, 2011, 09:40:18 AM
I am just curious, out of all of those defending this skit how many are full time or plan to go full time? I am not trying to prove a point but I need to wrap my brain around this.
Yesterday at work and walking home I felt like a walking target and was wondering who had seen it. I am a bit mortified knowing that at least some of the people I work with have seen it. It caused me significant anxiety.
But Dana nobody seeing you walking down the street would in any way associate you with any of that. You don't even remotely resemble those characters. You are are clearly a perfectly normal looking women.
In some ways that's the point. The programme makers (presumably deliberately) made the characters so OTT that they could never be mistaken for the real thing, by anyone with any level of intelligence.
And yes I am defending it up to a point... and of course when it comes to "length of service" so to speak with the vast majority of my life on the clock as postop transitioned or in childhood part transitioned, I think I am as qualified as any to hold a view.
I am genuinely sorry that you felt exposed, but I really doubt that anyone would be so naive as to mistake that sketch for reality, any more than they would something like a Punch & Judy show.
Quote from: rejennyrated on February 01, 2011, 10:51:13 AM
But Dana nobody seeing you walking down the street would in any way associate you with any of that. You don't even remotely resemble those characters. You are are clearly a perfectly normal looking women.
Well, we can all take a good picture every once in a while. I do not pass as in my visual or audible presentation.
At least the only pop culture reference to ->-bleeped-<- isn't Norman Bates dressing up as his mom. That's some progress.
The old media rule is that first you threaten, then you amuse, then you entertain, then you're boring. So, if you look on the half-full side of the equation is that we only have one more hurdle before we hit full on boring.
So, it's not like we are stuck anymore just being the serial killer in Silence of the Lambs and Dressed to Kill. We have some amusement value, Rocky Horror, RuPaul, Eddie Izzard, Dame Edna, and several of the top 10 AFI comedies involve gender switching, like Mrs. Doubtfire and Victor, Victoria including the number one and two comedies of all time, Some Like It Hot, and Tootsie. And a few of the movies have moved beyond that an ramped it up to tragic-comic like Priscilla, Queen of the Desert (both far funnier and far more pointint than the American remake To Wong Foo...), Kinky Boots, Bruno (also known as The Dress Code) and Transamerica.
Greater visibility, greater recognizability, more public access and more public understanding of Trans Awareness brings with it more visibility, recognizability and awareness, and being included in the joke (because as others have pointed out, the point of the joke was not on trans persons, but on TV advertisements, a long standing target of SNL) is just a part of that increased public notice.
I mean - and perhaps it only makes it worse, sigh - it's hardly likely that the people who wrote, worked on and produced this little parody skit have never met or interacted with TG persons. I'm sure they have, they are living the big time entertainment lifestyle in NYC and TG persons are a part of that milieu ranging from serious transitioners to the most fierce drag queens even to wear heels.
Were they having a laugh at your expense. Sure. That's pretty much the nature of parody and satire. Having a laugh at someone else's expense. Were they out to destroy you and make you life a living hell and insure that most people would NEVER take you seriously again, like they did with Sara Palin? No.
Thank to the site at AFI for references
http://www.afi.com/default.aspx (http://www.afi.com/default.aspx)
So I guess it would be appropriate for SNL to do a parody of bullying against gay youths.
Sure, if the target of the humor is the bully. I'd be down with that.
You realize that SNL most likely does additional skits based on the number of negative responses?
How many people who laughed at this are going to start a letter writing campaign asking for more?
Now consider those offended write into NYC. You don't think that producers of SNL have a metric that estimates positive reception based upon negative response?
The next installment of Estro-Fem... Pro-Growth:Progesterone. I'll leave the rest to the imagination. but it gets bad, PDQ.
Quote from: tekla on February 01, 2011, 12:17:43 PM
Greater visibility, greater recognizability, more public access and more public understanding of Trans Awareness
I don't think shows/films about men dressing up as women increase visibility at all.
Documentaries about transgender people and shows/films about transgender people increase visibility :)
Here's what I'm seeing. Now, I don't want the community to come at me with pitch forks and torches because it's not my intention to flame anyone. A lot of folks who pass well, or are very late in their transition [in other words girls who are fairly confident in themselves] don't feel threatened by this, while a lot of folks on the other hand that I know who either don't pass very well or are early on in transition are very nervous about this commercial.
Now to further elaborate, this ad makes me VERY nervous. That's because I'm early in my transition and I don't quite have the confidence yet. I'm not out to everyone and I have to deal having to fight the stereotypes skits like this perpetuate when I present to my family, my job, and to my friends. The cold truth is the fact that during early transition, you WILL look like a man in drag, or at least a very ugly woman, and an ad like this hits at the core of those insecurities.
Of course when one passes very well, one deals with much less transphobia because the general public doesn't know you're transexual in the first place. The stereotypes don't affect your job or your personal relationships because no one you meet will feel as if they apply to you unless you're out to everyone - and even when it comes to that, it's easy to be the 'anti-stereotype' as a full fledged woman. In addition to that, you might have the confidence that surgery or FFS might give you. For those people, try to think about how an ad like this effects the younger closeted transgender who may be struggling to find the words to explain to their parents what they are without sounding crazy and possibly risk being disowned. Now imagine this skit shows up on TV. The message is that as a transgender, you'll never be a real girl, you'll only ever be a man in drag. These are the kind of messages that contribute to so much youth suicide because there's so little positive reinforcement.
I'm not saying that the ad should be yanked off the waves, I'm saying that for SOME of us these ads are hurtful and even destructive. It's worth staying empathetic and keeping that in mind. The ad isn't discrimination by any stretch of the imagination. It's just sophomoric and tasteless. It's not worth defending.
I already spoke in the other thread about this but I want to add here that while it does show MtFs with facial hair (and even a pretty ridiculous moustache) it also shows them behaving like COMPLETELY NORMAL PEOPLE. Going through airport security (with no problems), at the office, at the gym, palling around at home with a glass of wine. To me that screams 'white upper middle class woman'. And it will to every other american, whether they realize it or not. Yes, they basically showed us men in drag, but they did so in a way that says 'and it's pretty normal.'
Quote from: Apricot on February 01, 2011, 02:32:12 PM
Of course when one passes very well, one deals with much less transphobia because the general public doesn't know you're transexual in the first place.
Which is why I think it is even more important to stand with our 'non-passing' sisters and give them our backing and support in matters like this :)
I thought it was hilarious. It's one's choice to be offended or not, and being offended is quite unecessary. "Some people have very sensitive corns, and the only way to live with them is to step on those corns until they are used to it." — Wolfgang Pauli
I still think its funny and I am qualified to say that as I have transitioned 3+ years fully and post op since last year.
The thing with the add is that it shows men, not transsexuals. None of us would still have the full beard and go down to the gym would we? of course not. That's what makes it completely and utterly ridiculous and its the ridiculous nature of it that makes it funny.
Stardust
Quote from: Dana Lane on February 01, 2011, 09:40:18 AM
I am just curious, out of all of those defending this skit how many are full time or plan to go full time? I am not trying to prove a point but I need to wrap my brain around this.
For whatever it's worth, I intend to live full time as soon as possible; at this point though, it simply isn't.
Quote from: Dana Lane on February 01, 2011, 09:40:18 AM
I am just curious, out of all of those defending this skit how many are full time or plan to go full time? I am not trying to prove a point but I need to wrap my brain around this.
Yesterday at work and walking home I felt like a walking target and was wondering who had seen it. I am a bit mortified knowing that at least some of the people I work with have seen it. It caused me significant anxiety.
I do plan to go full-time, if that helps. ::shrug::
Here's the thing:
- Men dress up as women ALL the time on the SNL. While that doesn't target us as a community, I am certain that there are plenty of feminists who take offense to it.
- There is currently a cast member who dresses up in blackface to portray President Obama and (ex)Governor Patterson. Patterson also happens to be blind and it's a running joke that he doesn't know when he's on or off camera.
- There's a song parody that makes fun of premature ejaculators
- Eddie Murphy made fun of Buckwheat from The Little Rascals and, inadvertently, those with speech impediments
- John Belushi made did his Samurai bit as a running character, making fun of Japanese culture and playing up stereotypes
- Eddie Murphy stars in a "White Like Me" sketch as a black man trying to find out what white people do when black people aren't around. To prep, he reads a lot of Hallmark cards and watches a lot of "Dynasty"
Those are just a few of the examples of the sketches over the years where a group of people were singled out and offended either directly or indirectly. Maybe you're offended by Estro-Maxx and maybe you're not, but that's just humor. If I thought that they were being especially malicious about the sketch, then I'd just not watch. I might have even written a letter. But, they weren't. It was good-natured ribbing and I look forward to the next time when we get to laugh at ourselves a little bit and not take everything so seriously.
For some personal advice, hon, let me please express that I'm sorry you've been feeling anxious about this. I really am. As someone who can empathize about transitioning, I know anxiety doesn't help mitigate a mixture of other emotions that are bubbling to the surface. Unfortunately, messing with gender is incredibly taboo in our society. You could choose to see this SNL sketch as a horrible travesty against our kind and withdraw further away from mainstream society, thus giving power to the taboo and not address it, or you could embrace it, say that it's not your cup of tea, but you could see how others might find it funny, and then be a shining example upon whom others base their opinion of transgendered people. If experience has taught me anything, the harder you fight against something, the more of the opposite force you'll encounter (much like my fight against my own gender identity). Just go with it, smile, or shrug your shoulders and move on.
Quote from: stardust on February 01, 2011, 05:27:59 PM
I still think its funny and I am qualified to say that as I have transitioned 3+ years fully and post op since last year.
The thing with the add is that it shows men, not transsexuals. None of us would still have the full beard and go down to the gym would we? of course not. That's what makes it completely and utterly ridiculous and its the ridiculous nature of it that makes it funny.
Even having this explanation given as to why it is supposed to be funny still doesn't twig comprehension for me as to why this is humourous.
I suppose that, following this theme, it would be funny to have obviously able-bodied people pretending to be cripples? Or people who obviously don't have cerebral palsy pretending to have no control over thier co-ordination and speech?
I guess I feel a little like Lt. Commander Data here, unable to comprehend basic humour.
Perhaps someone could give me an analogous skit that IS known to be funny that uses the same mechanism to generate humour?
Quote from: n00bsWithBoobs on February 01, 2011, 06:49:11 PM
You could choose to see this SNL sketch as a horrible travesty against our kind and withdraw further away from mainstream society, thus giving power to the taboo and not address it, or you could embrace it, say that it's not your cup of tea, but you could see how others might find it funny, and then be a shining example upon whom others base their opinion of transgendered people. If experience has taught me anything, the harder you fight against something, the more of the opposite force you'll encounter (much like my fight against my own gender identity). Just go with it, smile, or shrug your shoulders and move on.
I just want to say how strongly I disagree with this. I am not going to rehash the "is it actually funny/satire?" issue. I do have a problem with the idea that you can EITHER find the skit offensive and withdraw OR you could "embrace it' and be a "shining example" by being silent - what a bunch of false choice bunk. How about you have a problem with the sketch and speak out against it in a strong and rational way, as an individual or as part of a collective effort, that this type of "comedy" belittles the struggles of trans people every day?
It's a good thing that the pioneers for civil rights didn't have your attitude that the harder you fight something, the more push back, so why bother fighting...let's just smile and take our lumps and move on.
Anyone know where I can buy some Estro-Maxx? Seriously, I was only joking.
Stardust
I've posted a number of blogs about this, both pro and con, in the News Forum Opinions section. Some folks might enjoy reading them.
I don't at all advocate censorship, however it is also an expression of free speech to protest. If one doesn't approve SNL's humor (which I personally find to be mostly sophomoric), sign petitions, write letters, participate in boycotts, etc. These things might not pull the skit off the air, or even result in an apology from SNL, however they are effective tools in educating people about the issues of trans discrimination.
Z
Quote from: Sean on February 01, 2011, 07:01:31 PM
I just want to say how strongly I disagree with this. I am not going to rehash the "is it actually funny/satire?" issue. I do have a problem with the idea that you can EITHER find the skit offensive and withdraw OR you could "embrace it' and be a "shining example" by being silent - what a bunch of false choice bunk. How about you have a problem with the sketch and speak out against it in a strong and rational way, as an individual or as part of a collective effort, that this type of "comedy" belittles the struggles of trans people every day?
It's a good thing that the pioneers for civil rights didn't have your attitude that the harder you fight something, the more push back, so why bother fighting...let's just smile and take our lumps and move on.
I understand your concern, but I didn't say just be silent. I suggested saying that it wasn't your sense of humor. However, I would strongly suggest against "speak out against it in a strong and rational way." Not only do you show yourself to be a target because people know EXACTLY how to push your buttons, but you feed a perception that we're utterly humorless as a group. There are better ways to make a point about your objection and I think there is a delicate balance between being loud and outspoken against certain things and just being pushed around all the time. That balance is really hard to maintain. I feel that good examples of this would be Booker T. Washington's ideas about integrating former slaves into society, or sit-ins of the civil rights movement. It was gentle objection.
Quote from: n00bsWithBoobs on February 01, 2011, 07:22:40 PM
I understand your concern, but I didn't say just be silent. I suggested saying that it wasn't your sense of humor. However, I would strongly suggest against "speak out against it in a strong and rational way." Not only do you show yourself to be a target because people know EXACTLY how to push your buttons, but you feed a perception that we're utterly humorless as a group. There are better ways to make a point about your objection and I think there is a delicate balance between being loud and outspoken against certain things and just being pushed around all the time. That balance is really hard to maintain. I feel that good examples of this would be Booker T. Washington's ideas about integrating former slaves into society, or sit-ins of the civil rights movement. It was gentle objection.
I don't make myself a target when I'm calm and rational, because I don't have any buttons being pushed here. Don't know if you read my earlier post, but the problem isn't that we're humorless. It's that some people expect satire to have a joke other tahn the fact of transsexual existence. Most people aren't going to think I'm humorless for saying, "Hey, here is an example of satire, here is why this doesn't fit that definition..." Some people will. But so what. I want people to understand why satire is not the same thing as making fun of people.
There is a delicate balance. But the slaves did NOT get integrated into society like Booker T. Washington wanted, and there is no difference between sit-ins and the type of non-violent protests we're talking about (that zythyra listed).
Quote from: Sean on February 01, 2011, 08:08:45 PM
There is a delicate balance. But the slaves did NOT get integrated into society like Booker T. Washington wanted, and there is no difference between sit-ins and the type of non-violent protests we're talking about (that zythyra listed).
One could argue that this was largely the fault of Reconstructionists who charged in and forced reform on a society still trying to heal from the shock of Civil War. Washington's idea of proving to society that the former slaves were a hard-working, skilled, valuable asset to the community was a great idea. But, I digress.
You are free to do as you like. People who have a notion or an idea about something don't get their minds changed by in-your-face steadfastness, which is why I can't stand most Christians. If you feel that it helps our cause, go for it. I support your right to do so.
Quote from: n00bsWithBoobs on February 01, 2011, 08:42:05 PM
One could argue that this was largely the fault of Reconstructionists who charged in and forced reform on a society still trying to heal from the shock of Civil War. Washington's idea of proving to society that the former slaves were a hard-working, skilled, valuable asset to the community was a great idea. But, I digress.
You are free to do as you like. People who have a notion or an idea about something don't get their minds changed by in-your-face steadfastness, which is why I can't stand most Christians. If you feel that it helps our cause, go for it. I support your right to do so.
One could argue that the reason integration didn't happen is a lot of reasons. Many would point to the economic competition for low wage labor as a critical element in bringing about Jim Crow. It was not about race so much as dealing with class issues after the end of slavery. But while I'm sure we'd enjoy the history convo, we're a bit on a tangent here. ;)
I think the big difference I see in my approach and the approach you're taking is who the audience is. I think you are envisioning protesting in a way that shows that trans people can't take a joke to an audience that doesn't CARE that they are offending the trans community.
My audience in speaking up against this is not actually SNL. I don't find most of SNL funny and haven't in years. At best, they will take one joke and form a 3 minute skit around it. Often, there isn't even a joke there at all.
But that's not the point here, and it's not my target. My target is the people who are watching SNL or seeing the clip on youtube, or who may not even be watching SNL but have laughed at other "hahaha t***nies are funny" and are not aware that this type of skit IS offensive to transwomen, and who don't know what it really is like to be discriminated against for gender identity.
People who are uneducated about a subject and by and large aren't affected by it are often ONLY called to action by what you call "in your face steadfastness" and what I'd call, "raising attention to the subject."
People are - for the most part - interested in their own lives, their own families, their friends, their jobs. Many do not even know that it is legal in most of the States to fire transsexuals for being trans or to not rent to transsexuals or the rate/risk of violence. When they are laughing at "haha, man in dress wants to be a girl," I want them to think for one minute about the actual quality of life and treatment of transwomen and decide if they are laughing WiTH transsexuals or at them.
I view activism as an important part of finding natural allies as well as figuring out how to 'vote with your wallet' so to speak.
Quote from: Zythyra on February 01, 2011, 07:10:52 PM
I've posted a number of blogs about this, both pro and con, in the News Forum Opinions section. Some folks might enjoy reading them.
I don't at all advocate censorship, however it is also an expression of free speech to protest. If one doesn't approve SNL's humor (which I personally find to be mostly sophomoric), sign petitions, write letters, participate in boycotts, etc. These things might not pull the skit off the air, or even result in an apology from SNL, however they are effective tools in educating people about the issues of trans discrimination.
Z
And while practicing our right to protest and petition we are told by a lot of our own brothers and sisters to 'get over it' 'you are too sensitive'. Wow, a lot of support there. Some of us ARE deeply affected by this. I don't have to state the obvious that I am. My anxiety level has reached new heights (i suffer from anxiety but can normally keep it under control). Where the hell do we turn to for support? My head is seriously about to explode. The insensitivity and lack of understanding (in our own community) makes me sad.
I already walk around in fear on a daily basis because I have been publicly ridiculed more than once. I have suffered depression from it (though I bounce back faster than some). And to remind everyone (or if you didn't know it) 41% of ALL transsexuals attempt suicide at one point in their life. So I believe it is safe to say that a large number of transsexuals might be vulnerable to something like this. And as stated earlier some of us don't pass as well as others and are earlier in our transitions.
I don't find the skit funny in the slightest. I don't watch SNL so I'm probably not used to their kind of humour. I don't find Little Britain funny either. I just don't get it. ???
I'm sure a lot of what I'm about to say has already been said but I'm going to throw in my two cents anyway.
I chuckled a little when I saw Fred Armisen running on the tread mill just because he makes me laugh in general. There's something about that guy that is just weird and makes me giggle. Even his picture on his wiki page makes me laugh. I'm rather ambivalent about this skit, though. On the one hand, SNL has never been about seriously offending any group. They've always made fun of stereotypes. Remember Schmitt's gay beer with Adam Sandler and Chris Farley? On the other hand, this certainly doesn't help to clear up misinformation or misunderstanding on the part of the masses. However, I'm honestly more bothered by other portrayals of us in the media than stuff like this; for example, an episode of CSI New York, in which a transwoman was murdered. When the crime scene investigators found the body of the transwoman in the men's bathroom they didn't immediately realize she's trans. They thought maybe she was in there for some hanky panky with a guy and things turned south. But then they "noticed" that her feet were big, her hands were big, and then the Det. Flack character used his pen to lift up her skirt to check, grimaced, and said, "Our Jane Doe is really a John Doe." This is profoundly more offensive to me, especially the whole checking under her skirt crap. The worst part is, this show would have been a perfect opportunity to at least somewhat educate the masses. They could have had the Doctor Hawkes character or Sid the medical examiner cite statistics on how likely we are to be victims of violent crimes, or they could have said something about the discrimination we experience, or anything. But they didn't. There's also a movie that recently came out called It's Kind of a Funny Story, in which a 16 year old guy, who is stressed out by his teenage pressures, checks himself into a mental hospital. There's an African American transwoman character in the beginning of the film in the hospital, but only up until the main character's mother and 5 year old sister visit, at which point the mother asks if he had made any friends and the 5 year old sister says, "Have you made friends with the ->-bleeped-<-"? She was standing behind the main character. The mother then said, "Oh, the ->-bleeped-<-..." in a shocked and disconcerted manner. After this, the trans character completely disappears. There is no explanation as to what happened to her or whether or not she was released from the hospital. Every other character has a reoccurring role, except her. It's like they included her only to make the trans joke and then got rid of her. To me, these types of portrayals are far more damaging than SNL skits. I'd be willing to bet a large portion of our society isn't even aware that we take or pursue hormone therapy. At least this somewhat broaches the subject.
s
Quote from: n00bsWithBoobs on February 01, 2011, 08:42:05 PM
You are free to do as you like. People who have a notion or an idea about something don't get their minds changed by in-your-face steadfastness, which is why I can't stand most Christians. If you feel that it helps our cause, go for it. I support your right to do so.
O! what a shame, I know lots of great Christians and I'm afraid I'm one too, one of those born again one's too, so I've been born three times, lol.
Stardust
Quote from: Dana Lane on February 01, 2011, 09:18:55 PM
And while practicing our right to protest and petition we are told by a lot of our own brothers and sisters to 'get over it' 'you are too sensitive'. Wow, a lot of support there. Some of us ARE deeply affected by this. I don't have to state the obvious that I am. My anxiety level has reached new heights (i suffer from anxiety but can normally keep it under control). Where the hell do we turn to for support? My head is seriously about to explode. The insensitivity and lack of understanding (in our own community) makes me sad.
I already walk around in fear on a daily basis because I have been publicly ridiculed more than once. I have suffered depression from it (though I bounce back faster than some). And to remind everyone (or if you didn't know it) 41% of ALL transsexuals attempt suicide at one point in their life. So I believe it is safe to say that a large number of transsexuals might be vulnerable to something like this. And as stated earlier some of us don't pass as well as others and are earlier in our transitions.
I'm well aware of the statistic. I'm one of the bunch to have made such an attempt. I'll admit it does sting a bit to be treated slightly differently after people find out I'm trans. The outing inevitably occurred due to the M having been on my license. However I'm not going to single out SNL for a skit reflecting what a lot of people think already. Honestly I chuckled at the skit due to its absurdity. I won't tell anyone to get over it. If you were offended then that's how it is and feel free to do something about it. But be prepared to protest every time we are portrayed negatively in the media.