I've heard from a handful of post-op MTFs that if they could go back in time, they'd skip FFS, saying that the pain and recovery time made FFS seem like a waste.
Thoughts? For those of you who have had FFS, would you still choose to have it or not if you could go back?
I've never had FFS but I have only ever seen ONE person who looked better after it, and that was our own former forum member Cruella - who I am happy to report looks absolutely fabulous after undergoing the procedure recently, in her fifties, mainly as a means of recapturing her youth.
Most people I see do not look appreciably better, some actually look worse.
Given the costs involved I would say that unless you look like the back end of a truck (in which case you have nothing to lose) I think it is probably not worth the candle.
waste of money...i could buy every longboard in the world with what it would cost...hmm, now that's an idea, i could set up a longboard shop. hell yeah, i've now got a goal in life.
I very much disagree with you jenny FFS is one of those procedures that performed right is life changing and more to the point life affirming and needs to be experienced to be believed
To those I have met it changed lives, the yahoo ffs group is full of thousands of these stories.
Not everyone needs it but anyone affected by T knows if done right I will change your life
For me, it was worth it
Quote from: Vanna on April 18, 2011, 02:50:09 PM
I very much disagree with you jenny FFS is one of those procedures that performed right is life changing and more to the point life affirming and needs to be experienced to be believed
To those I have met it changed lives, the yahoo ffs group is full of thousands of these stories.
Not everyone needs it but anyone affected by T knows if done right I will change your life
For me, it was worth it
Well good for you. I, however can only speak from the results that I have actually seen in the flesh and most of them were frankly not as good as I would have wished, or indeed as they probably hoped they were.
By the way my yardstick for any cosmetic procedure is that if I can tell that you have had work, then it hasn't entirely succeeded.
My view is only based on those whom I have seen. I am happy to accept that you may be different, but as I have not seen you I obviously could not comment.
meghans did amazing things for her though i too wonder if she had been patient if the hormones would have achieved the same results as by the time she had the ffs she was very close to her final appearence. see her youtube video faces of meghan and judge for yourself.
jessie
and hi jenny long time no see :)
Yes jenny I used the same yardstick, the good for you is slightly patronising btw
Quote from: Vanna on April 18, 2011, 03:06:45 PM
the good for you is slightly patronising btw
Not at all intentionally so I assure you. I don't EVER set out to offend or upset people.
I merely wanted to express my acceptance and genuine pleasure to hear that you had a good result.
Quote from: Helena on April 18, 2011, 02:37:20 PM
waste of money...i could buy every longboard in the world with what it would cost...hmm, now that's an idea, i could set up a longboard shop. hell yeah, i've now got a goal in life.
One day I'll be doing this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freefoto.com%2Fimages%2F807%2F26%2F807_26_1546---Para-surfing--Cannes_web.jpg%3F%26amp%3Bk%3DPara-surfing%252C%2BCannes&hash=40e520dddd83653dd48f35d00a8e42aa04858f79):D
Interesting feedback, folks. Thanks.
The one person I've seen before and after FFS doesn't look all that different to me. Another MTF I've met had FFS, but I never saw her before she transitioned so I don't have before and after memories to compare.
Also keep in mind that not everyone is lucky enough to have a face that feminizes well, even with HRT. I, for example, have a brow ridge like a Cro-Magnon, and FFS is likely my only option for a feminine face.
Many genetic females have strong chins or unique noses, but I've never seen one with a massive brow ridge.
-Gwen
Quote from: Gwenhyvar on April 18, 2011, 07:23:28 PM
Many genetic females have strong chins or unique noses
You're sort of summing me up right there, more nose than chin tbh lol.
I'll let you know in a couple months :P
If you check around the internet, you can find plenty of good FFS results. I guess it really depends on how much you get done. If you overdo it you're going to look fake.
I don't think I'd ever have a full FFS treatment, but there are a few things I'd definitely have done:
- brow bossing/reduction
- brow lift
- upper lip lift
- tracheal shave
In my opinion, a tracheal shave is pretty much a must to be passable. Unless you already have a small Adam's apple, which is pretty uncommon.
I don't think it's overrated. It's really life-changing for someone who feels inadequate with their looks or just has trouble being seen as female. Some people probably go a little overboard on the plastic surgery, though. A lot of FFS surgeries are also too expensive for the average person to afford without a LOT of savings.
Judging from the before and after pics some have posted here I don't think I could say it was overrated. If I had the money I would have it done without a second thought, if for no other reason than not to look so much like... I can't bring myself to say it aloud or in print.
Randi
I don't EVER set out to offend or upset people.
Damn right, that's my job, and I'm brutal on any and all competition. Pretty much the same way Congress hates people lying to them, because they think that's their job to lie to people. And FTR, I rarely set out to offend/hurt/upset people, it's just that I don't care if I do.
As for FFS, I think that out of all the HRT/Therapy, both clinical as well as retail/SRS and FFS, it's the most expensive treatment with the smallest real changes, and the highest risk of bad outcomes. California, and the entire LA/Hollywood deal in particular, has reached a very high level of results, but the bad outcomes, like say Kenny Rodgers are really, really bad and once that's done it really can't be undone, and FFS though more maxifacial (sp?) then dermal, is a kind of plastic work. It can 'correct' 'obvious flaws' like my ex, who was Jewish and had a nose on her like Jimmy Durante and had it 'corrected' in high school. But you are messing around with bone, and bone can not be replaced, and does not grow back, hence any problems become real problems. And so much depends on the basic structure and shape to being with. As noted, the real changes are minor to most outsiders looking at it, but huge for the person in the mirror.
Quote from: Corey on April 18, 2011, 08:36:29 PM
In my opinion, a tracheal shave is pretty much a must to be passable. Unless you already have a small Adam's apple, which is pretty uncommon.
woohoo I got lucky on something then :D. Then I look at my balding head and think grrrrrrrrrrr. Hair transplant might be necessary in fact hairline has receded so it's probably on the cards.
Not overrated at all. I would do it all again. I went in with no expectations and really there is not that much pain at all. Yeah sure it takes a while to settle and is very uncomfortable putting up with people staring at you. But well worth it.
JMO
I'm looking forward to it, but to be fair, the stuff that's on my list was already there even before I started transition.
Work with what you have, don't over do it.
At 65, I'm definitely taking this in steps. In my case: therapist, hormone therapy, real life, second therapist, finances, genital femination surgery (in 6 weeks). Trachea shave at the same time is the only optional surgery, at this time at least. Lucky for me that the breast development has been satisfactory. I can look in the mirror every day and see things that would benefit from improvement. They just are not important to me, at least for now. If you look in your mirror and see things that are important to you - go for it. If you have to look at that mirror the rest of your life, it should reflect the best you that you can be to be happy.
Susan Kay
I think a lot of trans women feel that they need FFS in order to pass. Afterall, we are our own worst critics and I think these trans women somehow get it in their heads that the only way to fix all the nuances that they see in the mirror would be to go under the knife. So while I do think there is a substantial portion of those who undergo FFS do so unnecessarily, I do believe that in the end it can have a therapeutic effect once the operation has been completed (albeit an extremely expensive one). I am not one to tell someone that they can or cannot get FFS if that is what they feel will make them happier in their lives. I have recently had SRS and a trach shave. I do not consider the latter as part of FFS. If I did not have the further resources to get a trach shave, then I would have been just as passable as I am now. I absolutely do not think a trach shave is necessary to pass. It's all about one's personal priorities in order to relieve the pain from our own gender incongruity. Some go straight for SRS to get the sexual parts fixed while others go straight for the FFS in order to feel like they can better "pass" in society as their target gender.
To answer the original poster's question, I do believe that FFS is overrated. I think that many trans women put too much emphasis on their perceived facial flaws and get blindsided to the real issues that they face as to their self confidence and self esteem when expressing themselves as their target gender. Again, I do not deny the often times therapeutic results FFS can have at resolving one's gender incongruity, it just so happens that my experience and priorities are different.
I really dont think you can put a "blanket" answer on this.. My experience is that people dealk with GID in different ways. Some need different things than others. Everyone looks at themselves through a different kaliedescope, so there is no way way to say if it is "Worth It" or not.. Personal Choice,, whatever makes you feel better about who you are
I've seen TS's that have transitioned simply by going full time,, no HRT, Electro/laser, anything! but they are happy becasue they see themselves as the percieve themselves.. I also have seen others where there is no end to the modifications they would make..
Its all about the balance,,,,, balance to look how you feel most comfortable..
BTW as I wrote this,, I saw my picture and thought arrrrgghhhh I need to get my chin done! LOL ;D
I hold to the belief (which is based on experience) that FFS can have a great positive impact on one's life.
In short: no.
Some are lucky and HRT will rejig to female I hope so once I start, others need some adjustments for their own personal gratification.
Weight is a big consideration my therapist said why do I need to lose weight? I'm a 5' 10" 200lb athlete, it's a compliment and says alot about what can be acceptable but I want to slim my face down alittle then again maybe not ^^ I'm shaving off 14lbs to go for sexy :D
So hair transplant (necessary if required) and get my nose tip redone (more cosmetic but still not completely so.) I'll still be happy with my nose tip truth be told if I don't have it redone.
No it's not overrated !!
I had mine done 2 years ago and although I've been stealth for a long time and you could say I didn't really need to have it done for passing reasons, I felt that as I was getting older my face was losing some of what I perceived to be my best feminine traits from when I was in my 20's. So after doing a ton of research, I ended up picking Dr Zukowski in Chicago. I'd seen what he'd done for other girls and spoke to some as well and I was really impressed. Dr Z has taken 10 to 15 years off my age and has removed all those things I hated about my appearance. I'm absolutely thrilled with the results. For me personally, it was worth every last cent.
Many women have plastic surgery done to help themselves look beautiful and feel younger and I'm no different in that regard.
Quote from: Saskia on April 20, 2011, 02:03:57 PM
No it's not overrated !!
I had mine done 2 years ago and although I've been stealth for a long time and you could say I didn't really need to have it done for passing reasons, I felt that as I was getting older my face was losing some of what I perceived to be my best feminine traits from when I was in my 20's. So after doing a ton of research, I ended up picking Dr Zukowski in Chicago. I'd seen what he'd done for other girls and spoke to some as well and I was really impressed. Dr Z has taken 10 to 15 years off my age and has removed all those things I hated about my appearance. I'm absolutely thrilled with the results. For me personally, it was worth every last cent.
Many women have plastic surgery done to help themselves look beautiful and feel younger and I'm no different in that regard.
Exactly Saskia
Im completely happy as well. No dreading getting those passport or drivers licence shots. FFS has had a huge positive impact on my life
Quote from: Saskia on April 20, 2011, 02:03:57 PM
No it's not overrated !!
I had mine done 2 years ago and although I've been stealth for a long time and you could say I didn't really need to have it done for passing reasons, I felt that as I was getting older my face was losing some of what I perceived to be my best feminine traits from when I was in my 20's. So after doing a ton of research, I ended up picking Dr Zukowski in Chicago. I'd seen what he'd done for other girls and spoke to some as well and I was really impressed. Dr Z has taken 10 to 15 years off my age and has removed all those things I hated about my appearance. I'm absolutely thrilled with the results. For me personally, it was worth every last cent.
Many women have plastic surgery done to help themselves look beautiful and feel younger and I'm no different in that regard.
It would seem to me that your impetus for getting facial surgery was more to look younger as opposed to become more feminine appearing. Your story in this case does not seem applicable in regards to what the original poster is asking about.
Quote from: girl_ashley on April 20, 2011, 08:51:28 PM
It would seem to me that your impetus for getting facial surgery was more to look younger as opposed to become more feminine appearing. Your story in this case does not seem applicable in regards to what the original poster is asking about.
Actually no. If you re-read what I wrote, I said that as I was getting older I felt my face was becoming more masculine looking (in my mind anyway) and I was worried about that. So naturally I looked at FFS as a means to halt and reverse these changes.
The happy result of FFS is that not only it has made me look younger but has removed completely those things I hated about my looks.
I think it's important to point out that some poor results from FFS are not completely the fault of the surgeon. The patient has a tough regime of hard facial massaging to do for many weeks after surgery. Skipping these sessions will lessen the results and healing/recovery will take much longer.
I haven't had FFS. I think unnecessary for most people, although some people would definitely benefit from getting it. We look at ourselves and expect some huge change to occur, like going from Keanu Reeves to Jennifer Love Hewitt; when that's not the case. We still look like ourselves, just a bit different. The changes do come, but they come so gradually that we have a hard time noticing them. Best thing to do is to document your changes, so you have something to compare your changes to later on.
We all get so focused on our imperfections that we don't notice our qualities. FFS is hard to resist. But, try not to get so caught up in fear and don't let yourself miss the beauty that you already have.
Quote from: Corey on April 18, 2011, 08:36:29 PM
In my opinion, a tracheal shave is pretty much a must to be passable. Unless you already have a small Adam's apple, which is pretty uncommon.
Mine is tiny. :laugh: But if I were to get anything at all it would be an upper lip lift.
I think every person has different condition, is depend on how effect E of our face, how bad T of our face.
for me, if I have a lot of money why not? FFS is needed for me :) :) :)
I guess it depends on what you think needs to be done, and what you start with.
In my case I would probably just settle for a hair transplant, and an age reduction minor facelift of the sort a woman of 58 might have anyway.
Karen.
I guess there's a whole spectrum of things people find themselves compelled to do in order to get their right body back - everything from getting their eyebrows plucked to getting their face reshaped. It's scary how expensive FFS is, and I'll never be doing it myself because of that, but I can't say I don't want it at all - but that's in a bit of a fairytale way, I want someone to just make me look like a girl instead of a big bloke, and that's not going to happen. I may do the hair transplant thing if HRT/finasteride doesn't help enough, because it turns out that's important to me (I didn't think it would be).
A friend who transitioned a few years ago tells me that when she did voice therapy to get into her upper register for her speaking voice, a side effect of this was that her adam's apple receded due to change in muscle usage. This might also be to do with fat redistribution in the neck, but it's interesting. Of course, I'm not sure I want to change my voice much either.
Somewhere along the line, though, we'll each have to decide to be content with how we are, or the "but if I could just change this..." will go on forever.
I think it depends on the amount of testosterone damage. I am going to have no choice but to repair at least some of this damage.
Quote from: Dana Lane on April 21, 2011, 03:25:46 AM
I think it depends on the amount of testosterone damage.
This pretty sums up what I was thinking, too.
For me it was a positive, and I'm very happy with the results.
I think docs that sell "The Works" packages to desperate girls should be questioned seriously. Sure, they look very different, but with a couple of exceptions, a lot of the work was unnecessary. I am not sure it helped. I think you need a good doctor who will do this in reasonable stages and do the most important things first. I have personally done some things and had some procedures to correct things that have bothered me, and am having another procedure in a month. So I am not against in in principle. I just think caution should be exercised.
Re: Is FFS overrated?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fai.eecs.umich.edu%2F%7Emirror%2FFFS%2FSallyProfiles1s.jpg&hash=a5b7d449b23caf477067c6e5196ecdb4ba6a958b) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fai.eecs.umich.edu%2F%7Emirror%2FFFS%2FSallyProfiles3s.jpg&hash=aa4ee0056ad4e6450d7713c8f70591039781ccb9)
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/~mirror/FFS/LynnsFFS.html#anchor72451 (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/~mirror/FFS/LynnsFFS.html#anchor72451)
It's funny as I never even used to think about FFS, but as I have got older it is something I would consider now, in conjunction with a some sort of rejuvenation surgery. I really think it's another personal thing & really depends where you are starting from. When I transitioned in the 80's FFS just wasn't really thought of much, as GRS was the main goal for most girls, now it seems things have changed & GRS is just one of many goals people have, at the end of the day whatever makes you feel complete is fine.
you tell me/ All depends on the surgeon..mine was Dr Z as far as FFS and BA http://www.flickr.com/photos/michelle_thoms/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michelle_thoms/)
Quote from: Michelle Hayden on October 02, 2011, 03:06:24 AM
you tell me/ All depends on the surgeon..mine was Dr Z as far as FFS and BA http://www.flickr.com/photos/michelle_thoms/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michelle_thoms/)
Requires you to log in..
Quote from: Forum Admin on April 23, 2011, 09:01:34 AM
Re: Is FFS overrated?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fai.eecs.umich.edu%2F%7Emirror%2FFFS%2FSallyProfiles1s.jpg&hash=a5b7d449b23caf477067c6e5196ecdb4ba6a958b) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fai.eecs.umich.edu%2F%7Emirror%2FFFS%2FSallyProfiles3s.jpg&hash=aa4ee0056ad4e6450d7713c8f70591039781ccb9)
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/~mirror/FFS/LynnsFFS.html#anchor72451 (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/~mirror/FFS/LynnsFFS.html#anchor72451)
These examples are very good but I think Douglas Ousterhout has now retired. I would be interested to know if there are any FFS surgeons in the U.K who could perform to this standard?
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 02, 2011, 04:12:08 AM
These examples are very good but I think Douglas Ousterhout has now retired. I would be interested to know if there are any FFS surgeons in the U.K who could perform to this standard?
He's actually not retired. I had mine with him 3.5 months ago.
Oh, and to re-answer the question since I've had FFS since last time: heck no it's not overrated. This surgery has done so much for my self confidence that it was worth every penny.
No, I'm very happy I had some FFS work done. It isn't just about passing you know. Lots of the girls in their 20s who have it done are visibly female beforehand. For some of us it's more about dealing with the dysphoria. I had FFS for exactly the same reason I'm going to have SRS.
Quote from: Sarah7 on October 02, 2011, 11:15:16 AM
No, I'm very happy I had some FFS work done. It isn't just about passing you know. Lots of the girls in their 20s who have it done are visibly female beforehand. For some of us it's more about dealing with the dysphoria. I had FFS for exactly the same reason I'm going to have SRS.
This, precisely. I had just turned 18 when I had FFS done. Could I have passed without it? Probably. Did it relieve a lot of my dysphoria and make me more confident in my appearance? Absolutely.
Those pics are incredible Michelle ! where did you get your FFS work done? you would never think you were the same person.
For FFS in the UK DR Noorman Van der Dussen is very good for natural looking results.
He has monthly consultation in London at LCAS 15 Harley st .Works at the Highgate Hospital
Londdn and in Antwerp Belgium.
Mandy.
Quote from: Sarah7 on October 02, 2011, 11:15:16 AM
No, I'm very happy I had some FFS work done. It isn't just about passing you know. Lots of the girls in their 20s who have it done are visibly female beforehand. For some of us it's more about dealing with the dysphoria. I had FFS for exactly the same reason I'm going to have SRS.
I also agree with this. I've been told by alot of people that i don't need FFS but i'm still planning on getting it, it's something i have to do for me and not anyone else. :)
Yes jenny I used the same yardstick, the good for you is slightly patronising btw.
A bit hypersensitive mrs Delgado ?
Don't take life so seriously, it's indeed good for you, some people do have good results and you are apperently one of them, but as Tekla allready has said, the outcome is a bit unpredictable, so you belong to the lucky ones and it's good to read that your life has changed in a very positive way.
But...when I read the forum it seems that a whole bunch of people want FFS, even when their picture is obviously female, in that perspective Jenny is right, than it's overrated compare to the possible bad results.
And don't you dare to be angry to me, that's Tekla's job and she takes her job very seriously
There are a few features on my face I'm looking to reduce or get rid of, although I'll let HRT have a shot at it first. I think peace of mind will definitely be worth it, whenever I can find a way to come up with the money. And I will.
I really don't think so. But I'll let you know for sure in about 4 months.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 03, 2011, 02:13:50 PM
You STILL have to contour
You still have to wear makeup
You MAY NOT look natural.
Opt for one or two things instead of the entire thing.
Pardon? What kind of surgeon can only guarantee a result that requires that you wear makeup, and even still cannot guarantee a natural-looking result?
There's a reason there are
very few accredited surgeons performing these surgeries. They're complicated, delicate, and require years of practice and experience to perfect.
I had everything but the upper lip lift done on me by Dr. Ousterhout nine and a half months ago. I did not
need all of these procedures to pass. Frankly, I could have done without any of them. But they made me from marginally passable to pretty, and they in no way "required" me wearing makeup. I don't wear makeup. I don't contour. And my face doesn't look "freakish" or "unnatural" or anything but within the bounds of a normal female.* I resent the misinformation spread about FFS that it makes people look surgerized, unnatural, and less passable than they were before it. For so many women, FFS is a godsend, a life-changing experience for the better.
*In fact, I have a sister. I look just like her now that I've had surgery.
(Oh, also, it didn't cost anywhere near 70k. I don't know where everyone gets this number.)
hey wd, just a question. how small was your upper lip before surgery, cuz this is really one of my main issues personally. I pass very well, but every woman i see has gorgeous plump lips.:( my bottom lip is ok but i have no top lip and i dont really ever see gg's that have this problem so to me its something that sticks out on me.
Quote from: angelfaced on October 03, 2011, 03:47:51 PM
hey wd, just a question. how small was your upper lip before surgery, cuz this is really one of my main issues personally. I pass very well, but every woman i see has gorgeous plump lips.:( my bottom lip is ok but i have no top lip and i dont really ever see gg's that have this problem so to me its something that sticks out on me.
My lip's around average size. Both of them, really. My profile picture is at kind of a funny angle, but straight-on it looks pretty normal.
I know you can get something done about that. Isn't that what the upper lip lift is for?
I saved for 3 years. I had forehead, nose, chin & jaw, and trach shave done by Dr. O and it cost about $40k. Like Wonderdyke - I love that name btw :D - I went from being somewhat passable (from certain angles and with certain hairstyles) to passable from all angles. I also look a lot more like my sister than I did before, and she's jealous of my nose now.
Here's a zero makeup, zero contouring, somewhat high-res webcam photo from 2 angles if you would like to see how unnatural I look. ;) I linked it cause it's about 200 kilobytes.
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx263/AmySmiles729/Me/3_5_months_post.jpg (http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx263/AmySmiles729/Me/3_5_months_post.jpg)
Quote from: AmySmiles on October 03, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
I saved for 3 years. I had forehead, nose, chin & jaw, and trach shave done by Dr. O and it cost about $40k. Like Wonderdyke - I love that name btw :D - I went from being somewhat passable (from certain angles and with certain hairstyles) to passable from all angles. I also look a lot more like my sister than I did before, and she's jealous of my nose now.
Here's a zero makeup, zero contouring, somewhat high-res webcam photo from 2 angles if you would like to see how unnatural I look. ;) I linked it cause it's about 200 kilobytes.
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx263/AmySmiles729/Me/3_5_months_post.jpg (http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx263/AmySmiles729/Me/3_5_months_post.jpg)
First of all, thank you. I like to think of my lesbianism as a heroic trait.
I know what you mean! My sister (14 years old) and I now look so similar we could star in a Doublemint commercial (well, except for our height).
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 03, 2011, 04:42:34 PM
How is everyone affording the surgery and how much did it cost you?
I could explain exactly where the money came from, but it's really not that interesting. Basically, my parents paid for it. $23k for forehead, nose and trach shave.
Quote from: AmySmiles on October 03, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
I also look a lot more like my sister than I did before, and she's jealous of my nose now.
My sister came with me to Boston to look after me, so since she was there Spiegel copied her nose onto my face. Of course it looks rather smaller on my face, which irritates her to no end.
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 03, 2011, 03:15:03 PM
Pardon? What kind of surgeon can only guarantee a result that requires that you wear makeup, and even still cannot guarantee a natural-looking result?
There's a reason there are very few accredited surgeons performing these surgeries. They're complicated, delicate, and require years of practice and experience to perfect.
I had everything but the upper lip lift done on me by Dr. Ousterhout nine and a half months ago. I did not need all of these procedures to pass. Frankly, I could have done without any of them. But they made me from marginally passable to pretty, and they in no way "required" me wearing makeup. I don't wear makeup. I don't contour. And my face doesn't look "freakish" or "unnatural" or anything but within the bounds of a normal female.* I resent the misinformation spread about FFS that it makes people look surgerized, unnatural, and less passable than they were before it. For so many women, FFS is a godsend, a life-changing experience for the better.
*In fact, I have a sister. I look just like her now that I've had surgery.
(Oh, also, it didn't cost anywhere near 70k. I don't know where everyone gets this number.)
Where's Rhino P when you need them? With all of the info and postings on our site, and the YahooGroups, and some of the Surgeon sites (Dr Z, Dr Beck, Dr DiMaggio -FemLife), still there seems to be a misunderstanding of what an FFS is...it is FEMINIZATION of the face. Reshaping the face, forehead, nose, jaw and chin. Look at Amy Smiles and Mehgan Andrews, no makeup!
Overrated? ???
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 03, 2011, 04:42:34 PM
How is everyone affording the surgery and how much did it cost you?
Prostitution maybe? :laugh:
Quote from: Caith on April 18, 2011, 08:29:41 PM
I don't think I'd ever have a full FFS treatment, but there are a few things I'd definitely have done:
- brow bossing/reduction
- brow lift
- upper lip lift
- tracheal shave
Ditto here Caith, mayybe we should go together and ask for a group dicount :laugh:
Jen61
From what I've seen the results are amazing! I know there's a lot of rumours spread about it, but they can be de-bunked pretty easily. It seems like the majority gain more confidence in themselves, and feel more comfortable - that's what it's all about isn't it?
My concern is the cost... So many figures are chucked around.. Does anyone have a definite/approximate price range? I've asked another girl who had it done and she said it cost around 65K USD! Pretty expensive stuff!!
Quote from: lauren3 on October 03, 2011, 10:25:45 PM
From what I've seen the results are amazing! I know there's a lot of rumours spread about it, but they can be de-bunked pretty easily. It seems like the majority gain more confidence in themselves, and feel more comfortable - that's what it's all about isn't it?
My concern is the cost... So many figures are chucked around.. Does anyone have a definite/approximate price range? I've asked another girl who had it done and she said it cost around 65K USD! Pretty expensive stuff!!
Ousterhout did mine for 30K + 9K hospital costs, for a total of 39K.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 03, 2011, 02:07:23 AM
Those pics are incredible Michelle ! where did you get your FFS work done? you would never think you were the same person.
My first series of two days of 10hrs back to back FFS was with Dr. Ousterhaut..The cost total was around 45k i believe. It included: Tracheal Shave, Jawline recontouring, chin with titanium plate,rhinoplasty, browline brussing and obital rim, Forehead lift with Scalp Advancement, lipo to the abdominal area. I later went to Dr. Toby Meltzer who put in Malar Cheek Implants ( bad move as fat grafting is better if done right, and he isnt the best in any type of face work), Dr. Toby Mayer did a revisionary on my nose, as Dr. Meltzer made it too pointy. My last was with Dr.Zurkowski and he far surpasses Dr. O not only in his aftercare regimen, which is a deep massage to the jawline, chin and neck areas. He recently did forehead and scalp advancement another about 3/4 inch.., re-angle jawline, take out the titanium plate, that he told me Dr O didnt even have it screwed in and was just floating around, also orbital rim, he also did fat grafting to the face. I know of someone that just got a price for full FFS from Dr Z for $32K, so he is a bit less expensive than Dr. O and more aggressive. If i had to do it all over again i would have choose Dr. Z, as i would not have needed all this revisionary work and he is also much more advanced in technique and in aftercare. It is also a "known" that if you go with Dr. O you will have the Dr. O nose because everyone that gets a rhinoplasty with him ends up with the same nose, lol
Here are a few more pics the third one is 9 months aft hormones and some reverse body training..and then present..(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6091%2F6209791921_64c5a51fb6_m.jpg&hash=21043fb7bd0a08f6adc332d0b95e457e9eb6f7f4)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6151%2F6202973154_30b4ecd39e_m.jpg&hash=24f6d6ff85b5e55b0e9227bb889beda75fa905f0)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6210%2F6209791997_03d7732c9e_m.jpg&hash=f2d1555a6f8a5486f8cdb9d5406c9097939f12db)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6064%2F6210306852_99f6085b96_m.jpg&hash=ad45fc34db14c6c340855f9b686bc4724e8002da)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6114%2F6210306816_75967c7b98_m.jpg&hash=1df91be02e44d4cbe821500ce53532682eefba28)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6113%2F6209792029_cd64c3e92c_m.jpg&hash=70bc606669adb7700912e9446b8f115cb4155aa0)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6008%2F6202459799_97295ab55b_m.jpg&hash=c575667000c1e7a642b741a48cbf9e538f62f8d6)
Quote from: Michelle Hayden on October 04, 2011, 12:06:49 AM
It is also a "known" that if you go with Dr. O you will have the Dr. O nose because everyone that gets a rhinoplasty with him ends up with the same nose, lol
At least he makes a pretty nose. I'm happy with what I got with him, though I'm sorry to hear you had to go through all of those revisions!
It looks like the FFS surgeons in the U.S.A are much better than the one's here in the U.K. My friend had her surgery with a well respected surgeon in the U.K but the amount of scars she has she looks like she's been through a car windscreen! Her cheeks are lopsided and one eye is closed more than the other. I urge anyone considering FFS surgery to proceed with caution.
Sorry to put a negative spin on things but I think people should know of the risks involved. I think my friend is a very rare case but I now have second thoughts about having FFS.
I made a before & after thread over in the FFS section, check it out! ;D
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 04, 2011, 04:59:28 AM
It looks like the FFS surgeons in the U.S.A are much better than the one's here in the U.K. My friend had her surgery with a well respected surgeon in the U.K but the amount of scars she has she looks like she's been through a car windscreen! Her cheeks are lopsided and one eye is closed more than the other. I urge anyone considering FFS surgery to proceed with caution.
Sorry to put a negative spin on things but I think people should know of the risks involved. I think my friend is a very rare case but I now have second thoughts about having FFS.
Yeah. A good FFS surgeon doing the works should have two scars: the hairline (or scalp, if without scalp advancement) and under the nose (for the rhinoplasty). That's it.
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 04, 2011, 05:18:12 PM
Yeah. A good FFS surgeon doing the works should have two scars: the hairline (or scalp, if without scalp advancement) and under the nose (for the rhinoplasty). That's it.
A trach shave also requires a scar, usually placed in the fold between your neck and jaw. Though I suppose technically that's neck surgery, not facial surgery. ;)
I have a reasonable body for my age group but I do have male pattern baldness, a heavy bridged male nose and a normal male voice. A wig, makeup and tasteful clothes and I pass for an age appropriate female... as long as I do not talk. Therefore a $40 wig allows me to pass better than $30K in facial surgery. Eventually I will have hair advanced, nose feminized and deviated septum fixed, brow bossing removed, and a face lift. Surgeon told me I will look like a "pretty boy".
I tend to be unrealistic but one day I want to pass without a wig, without makeup and in boy clothes. Surgeon told me I can pass for male without much effort after FFS.
Quote from: Sarah7 on October 04, 2011, 05:23:42 PM
A trach shave also requires a scar, usually placed in the fold between your neck and jaw. Though I suppose technically that's neck surgery, not facial surgery. ;)
Yeah. I got one of those too, but I didn't consider it strictly part of FFS. Either way, if it's done right, after a year of healing, it shouldn't raise any eyebrows unless you're looking closely at it. A little scar, sure, but nothing enormous.
Quote from: wendy on October 04, 2011, 06:20:31 PM
I have a reasonable body for my age group but I do have male pattern baldness, a heavy bridged male nose and a normal male voice. A wig, makeup and tasteful clothes and I pass for an age appropriate female... as long as I do not talk. Therefore a $40 wig allows me to pass better than $30K in facial surgery. Eventually I will have hair advanced, nose feminized and deviated septum fixed, brow bossing removed, and a face lift. Surgeon told me I will look like a "pretty boy".
I tend to be unrealistic but one day I want to pass without a wig, without makeup and in boy clothes. Surgeon told me I can pass for male without much effort after FFS.
By providing the female norm in facial anatomy, FFS doesn't induce a magical change to female. In fact, the androgynous face it creates simply means that other people will look for other cues – like breasts, hips, hair, voice, and clothing – to determine whether you're female.
That said, while, because of the pixie cut I'm currently wearing and my glasses, which mysteriously have some sort of feminizing effect, I normally pass for female even in guys' clothing. Still, with proper binding and no glasses, I can pull off passing as male. It's actually not too difficult, even as an otherwise highly passable female, as long as you have a male or sufficiently androgynous voice.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 04, 2011, 04:59:28 AM
It looks like the FFS surgeons in the U.S.A are much better than the one's here in the U.K. My friend had her surgery with a well respected surgeon in the U.K but the amount of scars she has she looks like she's been through a car windscreen! Her cheeks are lopsided and one eye is closed more than the other. I urge anyone considering FFS surgery to proceed with caution.
Sorry to put a negative spin on things but I think people should know of the risks involved. I think my friend is a very rare case but I now have second thoughts about having FFS.
I hope that wasn't Keith Altman! I'm having FFS with him soon.
The leaf freaks a skill. Why does a device prompt Is FFS overrated?? Is FFS overrated? tutors the typewriter. A law outrages Is FFS overrated?.
Quote from: Xidorn on October 05, 2011, 05:00:04 AM
The leaf freaks a skill. Why does a device prompt Is FFS overrated?? Is FFS overrated? tutors the typewriter. A law outrages Is FFS overrated?.
Thoughtful comments. Indeed, the leaf freaks a skill.
Quote from: Skyanne on October 05, 2011, 04:52:04 AM
I hope that wasn't Keith Altman! I'm having FFS with him soon.
No, it wasn't Keith Altman? I've not heard of him where is he based?
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 04, 2011, 05:18:12 PM
Yeah. A good FFS surgeon doing the works should have two scars: the hairline (or scalp, if without scalp advancement) and under the nose (for the rhinoplasty). That's it.
You are talking about very basic facial surgery. My friend had very extensive facial surgery.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 05, 2011, 05:36:37 AM
You are talking about very basic facial surgery. My friend had very extensive facial surgery.
No, I'm talking about full FFS, which is exactly what I had. My scars from all the jaw surgery are entirely inside my mouth.
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 05, 2011, 04:37:18 AM
That said, while, because of the pixie cut I'm currently wearing and my glasses, which mysteriously have some sort of feminizing effect, I normally pass for female even in guys' clothing. Still, with proper binding and no glasses, I can pull off passing as male. It's actually not too difficult, even as an otherwise highly passable female, as long as you have a male or sufficiently androgynous voice.
I wear a designer pair of female prescription glasses in either gender. I have my eyebrows done with electrolysis and they are perfect for a girl. I never bind my breasts and I need a sports bra or it hurts to walk. I have less facial hair than a young female. If I dress in designer jeans and a cute purple flannel female shirt with purple female walking sneakers, I get called Sir 100% of time. I am not paranoid and people do whisper. A very close friend that does not know my secret asked me if I was going to gay bar in evening. I asked him if he only liked to use back door on gay bars. He got embarrassed and said oh you look trim and very nice in your purple plaid shirt. In past he has asked me if I shave my legs. He has made comments regards my breasts. Not sure if he wants me to tell him truth.
Yes I guess I can pass for a male with FFS without a wig, with neutral clothing and minimal makeup.
However when I wore a pixie wig with blond highlights on front bangs and makeup and nice female clothing I passed. How do I know? Because no one looked at me!
I read RLE is hazing for some of us. It is hazing for me. With great effort I can pass but then voice will out me. I know girls that totally pass and talk with a male voice and just do not care. They tend to be my age or older. They just don't freaking care what people think any longer.
I would like to one day get on with my life and just pass without a large effort. FFS offers that opportunity. Then after that hair transplants. Voice is giving me difficulty.
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 04, 2011, 01:10:07 AM
At least he makes a pretty nose. I'm happy with what I got with him, though I'm sorry to hear you had to go through all of those revisions!
Well, it all depends on the person. You may have been one of the lucky ones, but it is very well talked about thru the TS that have had FFS with him that all his noses are of the same??? style, shape etc and rather an upward nose with larger nasal flares. Yes, Dr. O is considered the "Father" of FFS but imo he is just getting too old to be doing it cause ive been hearing of alot of unsatisfied prior patients. He was still pretty good about 2-3 yrs ago..but now?? Of course beauty is still in the eyes of the beholder...If your happy, thats all that matters. If you had FFS done by him you should have a tiny scar on the bottom of the underneath of your chin..Dr O does this to everyone that has chin work..to burr it down and also uses it to do the tracheal shave..He does go through the lower inside of the mouth to do the jawline, so the little incision underneath the chin almost totally goes away and hardly even noticeable in time. Yes, there are no other scars than that, unless he does a lower face lift on you later. Many people that have undergone FFS in about 6 months to a year post op will eventually need a lower facelift, because of all the loss of bone will leave loose skin under the jawline and neck areas.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 05, 2011, 05:28:57 AM
No, it wasn't Keith Altman? I've not heard of him where is he based?
He's based just outside of Brighton, I've heard good things and apparently he was on Embarassing Teen Bodies performing FFS. (not sure why!)
Quote from: Michelle Hayden on October 05, 2011, 01:48:56 PM
Well, it all depends on the person. You may have been one of the lucky ones, but it is very well talked about thru the TS that have had FFS with him that all his noses are of the same??? style, shape etc and rather an upward nose with larger nasal flares. Yes, Dr. O is considered the "Father" of FFS but imo he is just getting too old to be doing it cause ive been hearing of alot of unsatisfied prior patients. He was still pretty good about 2-3 yrs ago..but now?? Of course beauty is still in the eyes of the beholder...If your happy, thats all that matters. If you had FFS done by him you should have a tiny scar on the bottom of the underneath of your chin..Dr O does this to everyone that has chin work..to burr it down and also uses it to do the tracheal shave..He does go through the lower inside of the mouth to do the jawline, so the little incision underneath the chin almost totally goes away and hardly even noticeable in time. Yes, there are no other scars than that, unless he does a lower face lift on you later. Many people that have undergone FFS in about 6 months to a year post op will eventually need a lower facelift, because of all the loss of bone will leave loose skin under the jawline and neck areas.
Maybe older patients? Since I'm 18, I think there's a lot more plasticity to that skin, and I haven't felt any looseness of my skin, at least.
I have a friend who had FFS with Dr. O last December and she's satisfied with the results.
Yeah, and I had mine with Dr. O 3.5 months ago and am also happy with the results.
One thing I've noticed about Dr. Z is that he likes to rag a lot on other surgeons in his presentations. I know this because he "accidentally" slipped some slides on Dr. O and Dr. Spiegel into his talk at Southern Comfort in 2010. Any surgeon makes mistakes, and emphasizing a very small minority of cases is a dishonest scare tactic. Some of his followers go spouting the things he says as fact and before you know it everyone thinks they're true. That's not to say I think Dr. Z is a bad surgeon - I just think he should stand on his own merits rather than attempting to bring other surgeons down. And for what it's worth, a lot of his patients look very similar to each other afterwards too.
As for Dr. O - the only 2 externally visible scars I have from a full FFS are along the hairline and under the chin. Any forehead work goes through the hairline scar. Chin, jaw, and I think cheek implants go through incisions inside the mouth. Trach shave goes under the chin.
Regardless of the surgeon doing your face, if you get your chin done you *might* need a lower face lift later. Older patients need them more often than younger patients, but us young patients may need them when we get older. Dr. O actually does a sliding genioplasty instead of burring, which can take a good amount off the height without damaging nerves.
My friend said that all of Dr. O's patients look like "pixies". I mean plastic surgery is definitely a form of art...
I don't want the "full package" just slight work done on my forehead and my nose oh and a trach shave lol. I def don't think it's overrated but i do think it's over priced. The average middle class person does not have 30-40k to spend on surgery, most people would probably have to save up for a long time like amysmiles did. I think if i had that kind of cash i still wouldn't op for full FFS cuz i don't need all those things done, it would be a waste.
Yeah i think it does help boost your confidence but then again saving a few grand would also do that, hello shopping spree! :D
Quote from: Forever21Chic on October 06, 2011, 01:04:53 AM
I don't want the "full package" just slight work done on my forehead and my nose oh and a trach shave lol. I def don't think it's overrated but i do think it's over priced. The average middle class person does not have 30-40k to spend on surgery, most people would probably have to save up for a long time like amysmiles did. I think if i had that kind of cash i still wouldn't op for full FFS cuz i don't need all those things done, it would be a waste.
Yeah i think it does help boost your confidence but then again saving a few grand would also do that, hello shopping spree! :D
I wonder if he's still doing his "Cats" special:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiztopia.typepad.com%2Fphotos%2Funcategorized%2F04292005.jpg&hash=4468d8d528352ac43aeae8a8237ee6ef8ae19d47)
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 05, 2011, 11:57:50 PM
My friend said that all of Dr. O's patients look like "pixies". I mean plastic surgery is definitely a form of art...
The work my friend had done was very subtle. In fact, I have to really look hard to see a difference.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 05, 2011, 11:57:50 PM
My friend said that all of Dr. O's patients look like "pixies". I mean plastic surgery is definitely a form of art...
No fair. I should have gotten the pointy-ear surgery done at the same time.
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 06, 2011, 01:28:09 PM
No fair. I should have gotten the pointy-ear surgery done at the same time.
Yeah, but I hear getting the wings to fit under your bra can be tricky.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on October 06, 2011, 02:06:01 PM
Yeah, but I hear getting the wings to fit under your bra can be tricky.
Psh. Consequences, schmonsequences.
Quote from: Michelle Hayden on October 05, 2011, 01:48:56 PM
Well, it all depends on the person. You may have been one of the lucky ones, but it is very well talked about thru the TS that have had FFS with him that all his noses are of the same??? style, shape etc and rather an upward nose with larger nasal flares. Yes, Dr. O is considered the "Father" of FFS but imo he is just getting too old to be doing it cause ive been hearing of alot of unsatisfied prior patients. He was still pretty good about 2-3 yrs ago..but now?? Of course beauty is still in the eyes of the beholder...If your happy, thats all that matters. If you had FFS done by him you should have a tiny scar on the bottom of the underneath of your chin..Dr O does this to everyone that has chin work..to burr it down and also uses it to do the tracheal shave..He does go through the lower inside of the mouth to do the jawline, so the little incision underneath the chin almost totally goes away and hardly even noticeable in time. Yes, there are no other scars than that, unless he does a lower face lift on you later. Many people that have undergone FFS in about 6 months to a year post op will eventually need a lower facelift, because of all the loss of bone will leave loose skin under the jawline and neck areas.
I personally know a number of Dr. O patients that had surgery 2010 or later. They look fine. However Dr. O goes more for feminization than beauty. Sometimes a masculine feature is very pretty or at least striking on a female and vice versa.
Michelle do you have some weight management tips and body training tips? I have lost a lot of muscle and weight past six years but my calfs are one inch bigger and I was trying to get them smaller.
Quote from: wendy on October 07, 2011, 09:59:04 AM
I personally know a number of Dr. O patients that had surgery 2010 or later. They look fine. However Dr. O goes more for feminization than beauty. Sometimes a masculine feature is very pretty or at least striking on a female and vice versa.
Michelle do you have some weight management tips and body training tips? I have lost a lot of muscle and weight past six years but my calfs are one inch bigger and I was trying to get them smaller.
Probably, yeah, but don't underestimate the great feeling that comes with being able to wear your hair short and not get misgendered! I've been thinking of going even shorter than mine is now, and I'm so glad I don't have to worry about my hair "giving me away".
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on October 06, 2011, 02:06:01 PM
Yeah, but I hear getting the wings to fit under your bra can be tricky.
Not when you're not part cyborg.
Masha, why not make a visit to Dr O's, it sounds like you live pretty close to SF or in the Bay area. Maybe bring back some "Pixie Dust" or "Borg Implants". :laugh:
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 07, 2011, 04:35:17 PM
Probably, yeah, but don't underestimate the great feeling that comes with being able to wear your hair short and not get misgendered! I've been thinking of going even shorter than mine is now, and I'm so glad I don't have to worry about my hair "giving me away".
I have a nice wig that has a Pixie cut and has short brown hair on sides and sweeping blond in middle. Real nice. People thought it was my hair. Got a pixie on my real hair today and it looks nice but it looks male. Ms. Wonder you look real feminine.
I have been chatting with Dr. Z's office. Hopefully I will visit him next month and he can fix nose and advance scalp 1.5 inches on sides.
Quote from: SandraJane on October 08, 2011, 01:17:45 AM
Masha, why not make a visit to Dr O's, it sounds like you live pretty close to SF or in the Bay area. Maybe bring back some "Pixie Dust" or "Borg Implants". :laugh:
Meh. I only want my nose done and thats more of an issue of vanity.Maybe my upper lips as well. My friend altered my photos to show how that would look...here are the results.
The before:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F217597_203770486312251_100000379048523_628318_4889689_n.jpg&hash=7f7bde67973a19571f68e4f310da50e02a260944)
The after:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F227958_209829119039721_100000379048523_668566_5520745_n.jpg&hash=c0ba91232f6f32052982b01bd776183c7610645d)
Not much of a difference. Hardly enough to justify dropping 10k plus when you can barely afford to change your name and I am not borrowing/charging it.
Ms. Mahsa you look feminine and pretty with or without surgery.
Quote from: wendy on October 08, 2011, 08:33:18 PM
Ms. Mahsa you look feminine and pretty with or without surgery.
Femininity doesn't expire and can be upgraded.
Point is that ffs makes subtle differences with a lot of ts's. Some need it, some don't... Again, it's up to them really.
I'm more for self acceptance.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 08, 2011, 08:24:58 PM
Meh. I only want my nose done and thats more of an issue of vanity.Maybe my upper lips as well. My friend altered my photos to show how that would look...here are the results.
The before:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F217597_203770486312251_100000379048523_628318_4889689_n.jpg&hash=7f7bde67973a19571f68e4f310da50e02a260944)
The after:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F227958_209829119039721_100000379048523_668566_5520745_n.jpg&hash=c0ba91232f6f32052982b01bd776183c7610645d)
Not much of a difference. Hardly enough to justify dropping 10k plus when you can barely afford to change your name and I am not borrowing/charging it.
Masha,
You were blessed with one of those faces, many of us are not. I agree, why change anything...well the upper lift would be the only thing I can see, save your money. But what was your purpose with this thread in the first place? Maybe FFS is not for you, but why draw out the conversation and in the end show us how naturally attractive you are? Mean spirited to me on your part. Sure FFS is expensive, some don't need it, but some of us do and we have professional positions that make it imperative that we pass! Ever been laid off from a 75K a year job? I have and that's long before transition came into play.
Plus there is the undeniable deference between the male and female skull and facial structures. I know of some Post-Op Women that still look like men and this keeps them in the far margins of society, sad but true!
You do look great, and I'm glad for you, but be nice about it.
SandraJane
Quote from: SandraJane on October 09, 2011, 12:15:25 AM
Masha,
You were blessed with one of those faces, many of us are not. I agree, why change anything...well the upper lift would be the only thing I can see, save your money. But what was your purpose with this thread in the first place? Maybe FFS is not for you, but why draw out the conversation and in the end show us how naturally attractive you are? Mean spirited to me on your part. Sure FFS is expensive, some don't need it, but some of us do and we have professional positions that make it imperative that we pass! Ever been laid off from a 75K a year job? I have and that's long before transition came into play.
Plus there is the undeniable deference between the male and female skull and facial structures. I know of some Post-Op Women that still look like men and this keeps them in the far margins of society, sad but true!
You do look great, and I'm glad for you, but be nice about it.
SandraJane
Wasn't my intention at all...
Actually, it was about how it's a lot of money for subtle changes. I was just showing you his alterations as an example. I'll post examples of someone else next trime.
Subtle changes? FFS subtle changes? Guess we look at different pictures and web sites. And a correction on my part, Shades O'Gray actually started the thread, but you have helped it along. HRT doesn't do the same for everyone either.
SJ
Quote from: SandraJane on October 09, 2011, 01:17:04 AM
Subtle changes? FFS subtle changes? Guess we look at different pictures and web sites. And a correction on my part, Shades O'Gray actually started the thread, but you have helped it along. HRT doesn't do the same for everyone either.
SJ
Okay, you win. I'll retreat into the shadows.
Quote from: SandraJane on October 09, 2011, 01:17:04 AM
Subtle changes? FFS subtle changes? Guess we look at different pictures and web sites. And a correction on my part, Shades O'Gray actually started the thread, but you have helped it along. HRT doesn't do the same for everyone either.
SJ
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 09, 2011, 01:25:16 AM
Okay, you win. I'll retreat into the shadows.
Lol, ladies can't we all just get along? Anywho yeah in my
opinion FFS is a life saver for some and def is not overrated but i'll say again the price for it could choke a banker! I've seen some great before and after pictures from full FFS but i have to agree with mahsa that most are just subtle changes. Surgery done on the forehead is a good example of what FFS can do, look at someone from a side profile that had forehead work done and you'll see what i'm talking about. ;)
Quote from: Forever21Chic on October 09, 2011, 02:44:08 AM
Lol, ladies can't we all just get along? Anywho yeah in my opinion FFS is a life saver for some and def is not overrated but i'll say again the price for it could choke a banker! I've seen some great before and after pictures from full FFS but i have to agree with mahsa that most are just subtle changes. Surgery done on the forehead is a good example of what FFS can do, look at someone from a side profile that had forehead work done and you'll see what i'm talking about. ;)
Darlin' have you seen very many pictures of a Full FFS? Do you understand the principle behind it? Its not just about the Forehead, Nose, Jaw or Chin...its about the combination of procedures to balance out the Face's
Symmetry, to reshape it to Female proportions...that's not subtle! But hey everyone is entitled to their opinions, right? I do find it surprising that even with before and after pic's of Amy Smiles you would call that subtle. Could be the term FFS itself is being interpreted differently or used because it implies a "status quo", sounds better?
Anyway...its not about getting along, disagreement can be a good thing depending on which way you point it!
SJ
Granted my case wasn't so subtle, but for other people it certainly can be. Those people who don't need it as badly should more carefully weigh their priorities because it may not be worth the money for them. My face was one of those weird situations where I passed ok from the front, but not at all from the side. Since a lot of people first see you from the side, I decided to get it done.
Quote from: SandraJane on October 09, 2011, 07:12:25 AM
Anyway...its not about getting along, disagreement can be a good thing depending on which way you point it!
SJ
No you seem kinda hostile in my opinion.
Quote from: AmySmiles on October 09, 2011, 10:03:12 AM
Granted my case wasn't so subtle, but for other people it certainly can be.
Yeah i've seen your before & after pics and i was impressed with Dr. O's work. I know what you mean about the whole passing from the side issue, i look great from the front and from my right side but my left side kinda gives me away which is why i was considering FFS.
Quote from: Forever21Chic on October 09, 2011, 04:29:27 PM
No you seem kinda hostile in my opinion.
No, but people have opinions. If someone doesn't like what we said or responds to us in a manner we didn't expect doesn't mean they were being hostile.
My intention with starting this thread was because about half the MtF's I've interacted with face-to-face had said that if they could go back in time, they'd not have FFS. The other half have said they'd do it no matter the cost and pain and recovery time.
Those are the questions I've asked. Can we please keep to those topics?
Thank you.
--Connie
Hopefully, I won't need full FFS as it effectively means pulling your forehead over your chin! It seems extrememly painful. I hope I can get away with ith odd nip and tuck to knock off the remaining masculine features!
A reminder to refrain from any personal attacks! It is possible to express differing opinions without them.
News Admin
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 08, 2011, 08:24:58 PM
Meh. I only want my nose done and thats more of an issue of vanity.Maybe my upper lips as well. My friend altered my photos to show how that would look...here are the results.
The before:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F217597_203770486312251_100000379048523_628318_4889689_n.jpg&hash=7f7bde67973a19571f68e4f310da50e02a260944)
The after:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F227958_209829119039721_100000379048523_668566_5520745_n.jpg&hash=c0ba91232f6f32052982b01bd776183c7610645d)
Not much of a difference. Hardly enough to justify dropping 10k plus when you can barely afford to change your name and I am not borrowing/charging it.
There's no way you need it! I think your nose is cute! I haven't seen a side view of it, but it can't be any worse than mine.;)
Quote from: Cadence Jean on October 16, 2011, 06:12:00 PM
There's no way you need it! I think your nose is cute! I haven't seen a side view of it, but it can't be any worse than mine.;)
Having photostalked all your photos on fb... You look 100% female and I am not the kind of person who diddly daddles about that stuff. I would have said something right now about ffs...
I still don't know how you got from your before pic to now... You look completely different.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 16, 2011, 08:59:25 PM
Having photostalked all your photos on fb... You look 100% female and I am not the kind of person who diddly daddles about that stuff. I would have said something right now about ffs...
I still don't know how you got from your before pic to now... You look completely different.
Ef diamonds! Makeup is a girl's best friend.;) The hair is huge. Dunno how my stylist did it, but she is a miracle worker.
yeah
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on October 10, 2011, 10:19:03 AM
My intention with starting this thread was because about half the MtF's I've interacted with face-to-face had said that if they could go back in time, they'd not have FFS. The other half have said they'd do it no matter the cost and pain and recovery time.
Those are the questions I've asked. Can we please keep to those topics?
Thank you.
--Connie
Connie, was there a direct correlation between older age and thinking FFS was worth while? Did older people find FFS more satisfying? Or is FFS a confidence booster?
It's underrated at Susan's.
Quote from: wendy on October 24, 2011, 08:53:43 AM
Connie, was there a direct correlation between older age and thinking FFS was worth while? Did older people find FFS more satisfying? Or is FFS a confidence booster?
If there's a direct correlation, I'm sure as hell an anomaly on the graph. FFS is an enormous confidence booster; considering the face is the single most important cue for gendering (when you're looking at someone head-on, at least), it eliminates or greatly lessens the degree to which someone who seems to be in permanent passing limbo gets misgendered. Also, for a lot of people struggling with hairlines, it's a good way to avoid time-consuming hair transplants.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on October 24, 2011, 08:55:45 AM
It's underrated at Susan's.
I think it's underrated pretty much everywhere. Guys, I don't know where people get this idea that FFS is "subtle". It's subtle like a brick in the face. It singlehandedly erased my chances of being misgendered. That wasn't due to small, barely perceptible facial changes.
Quote from: wendy on October 24, 2011, 08:53:43 AM
Connie, was there a direct correlation between older age and thinking FFS was worth while? Did older people find FFS more satisfying? Or is FFS a confidence booster?
No, actually. I know 3 MTFs who are over 60 years old. One just had FFS within the last few years and loves the results. The other had FFS some time ago and said that the pain and recovery time weren't worth the results. The third transistioned about 15 years ago (although she's elected not to have bottom surgery) and she looks stunning.
To me, the one who had FFS longer ago actually looks a little more feminine than the one who had it more recently. The one who transitioned 15 years ago has them both beat as far as a feminine face goes.
I know another MTF who's about my age who had FFS late last year. The changes to her face were subtle changes. She never said the pain and recovery time weren't worth it.
When I was at the one and only Pacific Coast Living TG/CD Conference in summer 2010, I saw many people who'd had FFS, including models for a surgeon. Most of those models didn't look very good to me. Not that they were unattractive, but that the work looked incomplete.
There are mirrors in my home; I know what I look like. My financial resources are limited and I hate pain. I'm still early in my transition, so I've got time (in theory) before I have to make a decision. But, I'm not sure yet if I want FFS.
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 24, 2011, 09:06:29 AM
If there's a direct correlation, I'm sure as hell an anomaly on the graph. FFS is an enormous confidence booster; considering the face is the single most important cue for gendering (when you're looking at someone head-on, at least), it eliminates or greatly lessens the degree to which someone who seems to be in permanent passing limbo gets misgendered. Also, for a lot of people struggling with hairlines, it's a good way to avoid time-consuming hair transplants.
I think it's underrated pretty much everywhere. Guys, I don't know where people get this idea that FFS is "subtle". It's subtle like a brick in the face. It singlehandedly erased my chances of being misgendered. That wasn't due to small, barely perceptible facial changes.
Yeah, can't understand the "subtle" changes thing either. I'm sold on it.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on October 24, 2011, 08:55:45 AM
It's underrated at Susan's.
I think it is nowdays, don' think some understand what it really is, not just a "Nip & Tuck". Did you get on Yahoo's FFS site yet? Let me know.
Quote from: SandraJane on October 24, 2011, 09:35:34 AMDid you get on Yahoo's FFS site yet? Let me know.
Nope. Them suckers!
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 24, 2011, 09:06:29 AM
It's subtle like a brick in the face.
ROFL :laugh: I think when people say it's subtle they mean those who don't get full FFS, like people who just get one or two procedures.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on October 24, 2011, 03:47:18 PM
ROFL :laugh: I think when people say it's subtle they mean those who don't get full FFS, like people who just get one or two procedures.
My friend always said it was for people who looked like Arnold Schwarzenegger and that I shouldn't get it.
In that case, it's not subtle.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on October 24, 2011, 03:47:18 PM
ROFL :laugh: I think when people say it's subtle they mean those who don't get full FFS, like people who just get one or two procedures.
Well, sure. I mean, technically a single procedure like that is
a facial feminization surgery, though usually it refers to the battery of closely linked procedures used to feminize the face. Even then, the results from one or two procedures can be pretty dramatic. Genioplasty alone would have been enough to radically alter my jaw's shape.
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 24, 2011, 04:13:16 PM
Well, sure. I mean, technically a single procedure like that is a facial feminization surgery, though usually it refers to the battery of closely linked procedures used to feminize the face. Even then, the results from one or two procedures can be pretty dramatic. Genioplasty alone would have been enough to radically alter my jaw's shape.
Yeah, a friend of mine got a nose job recently and looking at her before & after pictures i still cannot tell the difference lol. I think it just comes down to the procedure.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on October 24, 2011, 04:42:32 PM
Yeah, a friend of mine got a nose job recently and looking at her before & after pictures i still cannot tell the difference lol. I think it just comes down to the procedure.
How recently? Noses take a looooong time to show. Ousterhout says the nose changes for, on average, a full year, and sometimes up to 18 months.
Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 24, 2011, 04:50:27 PM
How recently? Noses take a looooong time to show. Ousterhout says the nose changes for, on average, a full year, and sometimes up to 18 months.
I think she's only about 3 months post-op. Wow really...a full year? lol
Quote from: Rukia87xo on October 24, 2011, 05:03:02 PM
I think she's only about 3 months post-op. Wow really...a full year? lol
The blood supply (which is the barometer by which swelling time is measured) to cartilage, and especially the nose and ears, is kind of atrocious. There's a reason frostbite claims these places as victims relatively easily! :o