I just wish I could get over my shyness of hearing myself on tape, it would make things so much easier. Don't know why, I've always just hated my voice, even though others seem to like it.

It's because it sounds like the wrong gender or at least for me that was the problem. I like the way my voice sounds now that it fits me. I do think it is pretty normal that people don't like how their own voice sounds because is sounds VERY different than how you hear yourself. -That- is why it's so important to record your voice and listen back for feedback.

But know that different recording devices, microphones and playback devices will make you sound different. I highly recommend getting a decent quality recorder and if you're at home, use a decent quality microphone and external speakers for this. You'll know you have a female voice when 100% of the time you are ma'amed when you answer the phone or order at a drive through

THAT would be nice, currently its like a knife in my heart every time I hear someone say "thank you, (sir, dude, man, etc)", even over the phone. Hopefully I'll be doing this properly to get the results I'm looking for.

Quote from: Firecat on September 17, 2012, 01:21:57 PM
THAT would be nice, currently its like a knife in my heart every time I hear someone say "thank you, (sir, dude, man, etc)", even over the phone.

Exactly and why I'm shocked when anyone discounts voice. Like how is it going to feel to someone else when you order at the drive through, they hear a man and then a woman comes to the window? It's this sort of disconnect that makes people uncomfortable. I'm not saying it is wrong to be a gender queer or that we should be "stealth", but my goal is to be seen and treated as a woman and having a voice that matches my appearance was important to reaching this goal that I had.

I went into therapy feeling 100% confident of just who I should be... I've been seeing her for a few months now, and I still have every sign and indication in my heart that its what I want, but really all my therapy has done is show me how afraid I am of being judged by others and making my own decisions or even trusting myself.  I think really learning how to speak again would be a great place to build my self esteem a bit.

Quote from: Firecat on September 17, 2012, 01:47:26 PM
I went into therapy feeling 100% confident of just who I should be... I've been seeing her for a few months now, and I still have every sign and indication in my heart that its what I want, but really all my therapy has done is show me how afraid I am of being judged by others and making my own decisions or even trusting myself.  I think really learning how to speak again would be a great place to build my self esteem a bit.

Self confidence however you gain it is key. I would say 99% of my self confidence has come from living in the world as a woman. Every time some young guy holds a door and waits for me to get there, every compliment etc just adds to it. Even if you can only do it part time, start just being a woman and your self confidence will grow. But I do believe a good voice will take you a LONG way. Even if someone thinks they clock you and toss out a "Sir", come back in a female voice "excuse me?" and they will trip all over themselves apologizing.

I'm a long ways from being able to do that, but it is a nice thought     And yeah, self confidence and anxiety are really all that is holding me back now.  I think I overdid it with playing with my voice at work tonight, my upper chest and back are both fairly sore now lol

I had heard however that lemons were supposed to soften up the vocal cords for singers, might that also help with this process a bit?

Quote from: Stephe on September 17, 2012, 06:34:15 PM
Even if someone thinks they clock you and toss out a "Sir", come back in a female voice "excuse me?" and they will trip all over themselves apologizing.

^^^^ this

Voice is so important.

I trained my voice by finding a female singer (I chose Amanda Palmer) whose range I could hit, and sang along.  Then, instead of singing, I started talking in the same range.  I recorded myself doing this, and practiced, practiced, practiced.  I think I even gained an octave over time.  My voice is very passable, and I have never had any problems, either in person or on the phone.  It took time (several months), it was a lot of work, and like most things about transitioning, it was maddeningly frustrating along the way, but it was totally worth it. 

Has anyone else here ever have an issue with a very sore back after working with their voice? I spent a few hours alone playing with mine at work and noticed my chest and back were feeling like they'd had quite a workout, and woke up today to find my back was painfully stiff.

Drink plenty when doing it and rest your voice for at least 24 hours. If it is still sore tomorrow give it another 24 hours. Your throat has to get used to this.

Also, however long you spent on it today, cut to half that and see how it works out. Your throat cannot do everything on day 1 any more than you can do a 26 mile marathon which no practice or training.

So just like exercising the body, its okay to go with a one day on, 1-2 day off routine at times like these? I want to make sure progress is safe and steady, with minimal regression

Simple rule - if it hurts then stop it.

I bet you are breathing wrong if your chest hurts. Using a female voice requires more air and you have to breath from your diaphragm not the chest. You should see your tummy rise and fall when you breath not your chest. It sounds crazy but most people breath wrong

I had no honest idea what a diaphragm was, to be honest >.< Anatomy wasn't a strong suit for me.
I guess that is probably the best place to begin practicing then!

My voice therapist had me spend the first week breathing practice only. Lay on my back and breath with my hand on my belly to make sure I was breathing there and not my chest. It's a must given you have to add some breathiness to many words/sounds to get rid of the male staccato type speech pattern. Words flow and aren't chopped but at the same time aren't mumbled.

  Yeah I'm totally going to go see a voice therapist as soon as my budget becomes a little more lenient, I totally learn better with someone there to guide me. In the mean time I'll try to take it slow and safe.
For the time being I need to figure out how I can work this into my daily routine so I don't just start forgetting for days on end, its very important after all!

I do better too for things like this where someone can listen and say "no, more like this" and then I can try again instead of practicing wrong. IMHO this is no different than say trying to teach yourself to play golf. Sure you can do it but are you learning the right way to do it where it becomes effortless and consistently good?

My voice coach also helped with other social issues and simple things women do that men don't. Of course you can over do the "stereotypes" but I have noticed many things she was right about, like women sit closer together than men usually, they often will do something like touch the other woman's arm to make a point, guys would never do that. I hear people say "that's being fake" but it's just how women are socialized. Men are socialized differently and if you want to fit into women's space, you should behave like a woman does. Being a woman is more than just being female or looking female. You can look 100% passable but if you act like a guy, there would be a disconnect just as strong as if you use a guys voice. Sure there is a lot of variation in how women act but even a natal female that acts extra manly isn't accepted as "one of the girls" in many circles.

An example of things women do that men would never do. I was at the post office and the lady at the counter said "You smell great what are you wearing?" I happened to have a small bottle of the scented lotion I use in my purse, showed her and told her "try some, it feels really nice too." The lady next to her joined in the conversation, wanted to try some and I told them where to get it at the mall. We exchanged names, I finished up my business and waved bye.  Two guys would NEVER have an exchange like that. Nor would a woman with a man. Men would never compliment each other on something they were wearing or their hair etc either. It really is just a different world being a woman and it's so much nicer

I've developed a strong biased to how men act and socialize in the world around me--always trying to act tough or strong or like they don't care, or poke fun at each other non-stop. Its awkward and uncomfortable, I'm too sensitive, and always try to be mindful and respectful of others feelings whenever I can, but there is a side of me that has been so conditioned to do just those things to try and fit in, and I do it badly, and it always winds up with me feeling like a total ass. My "friends" would always pick on each other for anything they found was different about them, and were always super competitive, and I could never really relate to them, I've always been one for more personal and open-hearted conversation, something I can never really get as a male.

Now, in my online life, I feel way more at ease, I have a lot more friends, about 90% of them are female, I can talk to them about just about anything, and I feel like I can really connect. some of them I try to pass for a female, others know just about everything about me. I've made one or two friends in real life I can do that with, and once I get going on the subject of crossdressing or trans life, I can talk a mile a minute, but otherwise I'm generally awkward and withdrawn.

Honestly, I have no idea whats supposed to feel "right" to me, sometimes I feel desperate for making the transition, other times it just feels like I'm being driven by it whether I like it or not.  I've made more positive changes in myself in the year since I started to truly realize this side of me, and all the while I have no earthly idea if this is something I could do. Its like my deepest desire (for over 8 years now) is also the biggest taboo in my mind.   (Waaaaay off in a tangent...)   Needless to say, I have a LOT to learn, and I need to find a way to stop being so self conscious so that I may figure some of this stuff out, and obviously a new shrink may be in order.

-Edit- I did talk to her today, and brought up some of these issues... suddenly, she agrees that the voice is important, but its still far more important, in the end, to express myself for who I am, and not to try act like someone else apparently.

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 12:29:39 AM
-Edit- I did talk to her today, and brought up some of these issues... suddenly, she agrees that the voice is important, but its still far more important, in the end, to express myself for who I am, and not to try act like someone else apparently.

"Who we are" is a combination of nature and nurture. Parents and others see male body and buy us a fire truck to play with. We are told "boys don't do that" and "Act like a man". We want to fit in so try, at least, to emulate the males around us. We might find out we fail at it but some of it sinks in. For trans people, we know this is wrong or at least I did from when I was very young. But we are socialized in this manner anyway.

We all are "acting" as we socialize with other people no matter what we do. If I was going to just "express myself" I would tell anyone I didn't really like talking to "Go away, you are a bore" but we don't act like that. That isn't acceptable behavior and the people you do like wouldn't approve. It's why to be accepted as a woman by other women, we have to socialize ourselves as women.

Here is another example, men will almost always be talking about something they own or something they accomplished that they feel makes them look Superior. It's why they have to win an argument or at least thing they do.  That or talking about something else manly like sports and only if their team won. They NEVER talk about feelings they had or ask another man to open up about how they have been feeling in casual conversations. Women on the other hand compliment other people trying to build them up rather than themselves. Regularly total strangers compliment me or if I compliment them, a nice little conversation then happens (see the above example). They share more of their feelings and family type events rather than "I got this new porshe" type of news. It's about making other feel good not about making yourself look good. If a guy acts like that, it's just weird and it's perceived as "There is just something wrong with them".

I don't consider educating myself on how to talk, behave and act as a woman "acting" or not being myself because I was never socialized to be a woman. As a man, you have no idea how to behave in a women's bathroom. The only way you can ever really fit into women's space is to learn these details we were never taught growing up. Being a woman isn't something they were born as, they -learn- to be women and we must as well.