It seems I'm somewhat of a rebel when it comes to 'passing' - at least in the fairly stereotypical definition that exists here.

Let me start by saying I 'pass', I've not been misgendered in so long I forget the last time it happened. I'm fine in stores, in public and even in bathrooms. I've been asked for tampons often enough now that I carry a few around with me. I don't get funny looks and I certainly haven't heard any one making any odd comments.

So why am I a rebel? I refuse to do a whole bunch of things that are apparently 'necessary' for me to do in order to 'pass'. I've been told by other members here that I will require FFS in order to pass. Guess what? I have no interest in FFS. The apparently 'masculine' features I have are all present in all the other women in my family - and no one accuses them of being men. I may not be a stereotypical beauty, but I've blended into society as a woman.

There are whole threads dedicated to voice and how you have a voice that is pitched at a typical female level in order to 'pass'. I've done no work to change my voice and it does me just fine - I've been accused of being lazy because of this. Funny thing is, it's only people here that say my voice doesn't pass. People I know in real life all give it a pass, as do members of another chat room I'm a member of. None of whom have any reason to lie to me about it either. I don't get any funny looks or changes in attitude from random strangers when I use it in public either. I guess it's a case of 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it.' My therapist, who has extensive experience with trans people, has also commented on my voice, he gives it a pass too.

I've not really done anything to change how I move or other physical mannerisms - I've had no need, I've always moved like a female and had female mannerisms. This is something I previously got quite a lot of grief for - both from family/friends and strangers. My family and friends understand why now.

I transitioned to be me, the me I always knew was there, just hidden away. And in the bit over 2 years since I came out and started my transition, I feel I've done pretty well. On a day to day basis, I 'pass'. I'm never going to be stealth, I have too many old friends and my entire family still in my life, but friends I've made since I started transition, and who know my past, have commented that they could not imagine me ever being a man.

Hi Kelly.  Feeling a bit down today, but am trying to remind myself that I have come a long way in a short time.
I have discovered that Genderqueer is an identity that I am comfortable with, so although I apparently pass well, it is not that important when you have discarded Gender as an unworkable concept.
I will use it to my advantage socially, but if the rest of society wants to play the silly game I really am not concerned.

Karen.

The mighty three some. Sorry Karen,  Let me know if I can help I have an ear or two.

I also feel a bit shaken but not stirred about comments about passing.

I have a deep voice. I'm not changing it, I doubt that I can. I know many other women with deep voices, and to be honest when I lecture I need a voice that projects. I hate the soft spoken microphone voice. I speak and people listen. If they have confusion about my gender so what?

I will also never have FFS, goddess when you are as gorgeous as me, who could spoil it

That is a joke but a serious one.

I have the honour to be friends with Kelly and Karen, Kelly and I go out to dinner more frequently than we do with Karen, she is in another state, but I have never ever noticed any 'stuff' from other people when we go out.

Do we pass?

I have to be totally and completely honest here as it is fundamental to my life, my well being and how I perceive myself in the Universe.

I don't give a damn

I'm me. I walk and I talk and I'm me.

Kelly is a good friend and a fine looking woman who fits into society and works in society as the woman she is.

There is an empathise on how well 'we' pass. The easiest way to overcome it is very easy. Ignore it.

Excuse me - when was the last time you heard a cis woman worry about passing as female?


We get too precious.

Sorry Kelly,

I wanted that rant for a while.

Quote from: Cindy James on October 15, 2012, 04:18:07 AM

Sorry Kelly,

I wanted that rant for a while.

No problem Cindy.. You made the point I was trying to find a way to say without being rude..

Right there with you - as I've said a load of times, I gave up on "passing" when I gave up pretending to be a man. I get weird treatment from (straight) men sometimes, but women just seem really comfortable around me, even if they're not sure what I am . I'm not changing my voice much, because making it higher makes me feel prepubescent, which = unsafe. So I'll stick with what I have.

I think for people in places where it's a lot less safe to be trans, passing matters more, and that makes sense. So it's not a b&w situation, each person's needs are different.

Kelly, your post is an inspiration.

Most of us would like to pass, but I know several MtFs who don't and never will and they are very happy with their transition. I'm also of the opinion that MtF's who don't pass do us all a great service, reminding people we do exist, that we're among you and that we're not crazy, dangerous people.

I'm new to this and I'm still doing whatever I can to pass, but I hope at one point I end up with your attitude, and just let myself be me.

I am a firm believer that passing is as much attitude and confidence as looks. We have all seen rather manly looking women but never gave them a second thought. Thats because knew they were women no matter how they looked and thats how we should be also.

This thread came at a good time for me. I have been feeling really "mannish" these past few days. I have been feeling like I don't look feminine in the least. Also, so many threads here are about what it takes to "pass", and how you need to change. It really helps me to read about strong women who know who they are, accept who they are, and don't change who they are to fit societies definition of feminine. I think you all are lovely, and your stories give me inspiration to just keep being me. Thank you.

I think the ability to pass is a direct result to how many trans people the observer has been around in their life. The only ones who clock me are the male stripper types that are around ridiculously amounts of trans women. However a friend of mine who just transitioned isn't so lucky. I was in a line at a festival and a guy who was selling food went "....and thats a guy" after taking her order. Her voice however is terrible, and I seriously think its why they noticed.

Some of us need to work on our voice... or at least speech pattern, some do not. Kind of like how some of us are going to need ffs and many of us do not.

Quote from: kelly_aus on October 15, 2012, 03:16:22 AM
It seems I'm somewhat of a rebel when it comes to 'passing' - at least in the fairly stereotypical definition that exists here.

Let me start by saying I 'pass', I've not been misgendered in so long I forget the last time it happened. I'm fine in stores, in public and even in bathrooms. I've been asked for tampons often enough now that I carry a few around with me. I don't get funny looks and I certainly haven't heard any one making any odd comments.

So why am I a rebel? I refuse to do a whole bunch of things that are apparently 'necessary' for me to do in order to 'pass'. I've been told by other members here that I will require FFS in order to pass. Guess what? I have no interest in FFS. The apparently 'masculine' features I have are all present in all the other women in my family - and no one accuses them of being men. I may not be a stereotypical beauty, but I've blended into society as a woman.

There are whole threads dedicated to voice and how you have a voice that is pitched at a typical female level in order to 'pass'. I've done no work to change my voice and it does me just fine - I've been accused of being lazy because of this. Funny thing is, it's only people here that say my voice doesn't pass. People I know in real life all give it a pass, as do members of another chat room I'm a member of. None of whom have any reason to lie to me about it either. I don't get any funny looks or changes in attitude from random strangers when I use it in public either. I guess it's a case of 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it.' My therapist, who has extensive experience with trans people, has also commented on my voice, he gives it a pass too.

I've not really done anything to change how I move or other physical mannerisms - I've had no need, I've always moved like a female and had female mannerisms. This is something I previously got quite a lot of grief for - both from family/friends and strangers. My family and friends understand why now.

I transitioned to be me, the me I always knew was there, just hidden away. And in the bit over 2 years since I came out and started my transition, I feel I've done pretty well. On a day to day basis, I 'pass'. I'm never going to be stealth, I have too many old friends and my entire family still in my life, but friends I've made since I started transition, and who know my past, have commented that they could not imagine me ever being a man.

I feel the same way as you about this "passing." I've seen threads on here that say you must have this and that and look like this and talk like that and do this and so on. I find it a bit irritating, to be quite honest.

I don't understand why a group of people that is trying to hard not to be boxed and who fight to actually get out of this box they've been put it, insist on re-boxing themselves. I don't understand this need to fight for being accepted and then start judging people in that same group on your own. It's just doesn't sit with me. I hope this made any sense. I just felt a bit like ranting too.

-Ugla.

hey, count me in. I have NO intention of taking  "Mickey Mouse" voice lessons, and my money is going to my future SRS. I have been RLT for 2 years, and you know what, nobody has has said a think.

I think it is all in the way you project your inner "chola," that is all.


BTW Kelly, I think your inner beauty not only shows in your postings, but also in your eyes and smile. Personally, I think you are a gorgeous lady.

OO

Peky

A dear friend and I were chatting about this very thing.  She is very much in your corner, Kelly.  She can not understand why some many are concerned with "passing".   When she transitioned, a long time ago, she did not do the FFS or the voice training.  She "just let it flow".  Those are her words.  And even in my own transition I have went the same way.

I have always said that it is all about "attitude".  Not the "Screw you" type or even the "I don't care" type.  It is more of the "I am woman.  Here me roar!".  Yes, I don't care what others think.  But then again anyone who wants to be themselves really don't.

Do I pass?   I think so, as far as anyone can.  Passing is meeting someone else's expectations of who you should be in their eyes.  But that is why so many stay "in the closet".  They are trying to "pass" for someone else.

I prefer to just be me. 

That is great if you found what works for you, but honestly, so what?  What are you trying to say?  Like, do you want everyone else to not put any effort into their transition and look, sound and act like a guy?  I'm sorry hon but if you go out of the house without changing your voice and not caring about your appearance, I would clock you.  And a lot of people would, but MOST people wouldn't say anything because it's not something you say normally unless you're juvenile.

But again, everybody can do what they want.  Most girls would feel awful if they sounded and acted like a man. I think you should understand that to other MTFs these are actually really important issues that cause a lot of distress and a lot of hurt.  Do what works for you but don't expect other people to because other people have different standards for themselves.

Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?

Passing comes with certain social privileges. That's just... the way our world works. It's cool if you don't care, but it's not free. And the not-caring often comes from a place of privilege... I'm a student and just starting out in my career. Really you think my passability is irrelevant to being hired? I'm female and visibly queer, that's two strikes against me already.

Also... I guess I just come at this from a very different place. Passing happened to me very early on in my transition, before any surgical modifications. Other people? *Shrug* It's my body. This was always about my body. Whether I was accepted or not as a woman never made any difference for that. Attitude never made any difference for that.

I have an ugly history of self-harm because I just hated my body that much. Am I not me now that I've changed? For the first time in my life, I feel like I'm all me, not in an endless war against my body, against myself. I'm hardly "natural," but I'm happy in my artificiality, in my reconstructed flesh. I think this is the most me I've ever been.

I think we need... space for everyone here. I think passing is not always a "silly game." I don't think choosing not to alter your flesh or voice or mannerisms is always a way to "just be me." I don't think everyone feels like fitting in amongst other women is insisting on "re-boxing themselves." I think some people actually LIKE being feminine rather a lot and don't feel like they are changing "who they are to fit societies definition of feminine." And, ya, you know what my voice didn't require any training either to be gendered female. Which is an AMAZING privilege to have. And I have a ton of respect for those who feel the need and go through the painstaking and difficult process of altering their voice. And I try not to go out of my way to grind my genetic gift in anyone's face. Or use language like "'Mickey Mouse' voice lessons."

And, ya, there are other threads which are pretty awful going the other way, talking about how you ABSOLUTELY MUST do a given thing, and that's horrible and alienating and I'm sorry you guys have to read that crap. But that doesn't make this thread any more respectful or any less a condemnation of people with different experiences.

yeah. plassing seems to be more about flow. you could be but ugly and still pass and have fun out in the sun. i have noticed some trans people both MtoF and FtoM who seem to pass and not get crap just because of the fact that they go with the flow. its reall amazing to watch. coolness just makes things work.

You know, quiet frankly wherever I am, supermarket, restaurant, movies, mall, hardware store, work, university, church, 90% of the women my age are ugly or fat or both. That is not to say there is something wrong with them. I am just commenting in their external appearance.

I would say almost 60% have what pretty and the other "eagle eyes' would consider "man features," and a good 20% have a deep voice close to mine.

As far as you or anybody else cloaking me, huhhh, I am shaking in my boots!

One thing is to be midnful of ones manerism, behaviour, and proper dressing; and another different thing is to be so obessed as to be freaky and calling attention on oneself.

Quote from: Ugla on October 15, 2012, 12:33:30 PM

I don't understand why a group of people that is trying to hard not to be boxed and who fight to actually get out of this box they've been put it, insist on re-boxing themselves. I don't understand this need to fight for being accepted and then start judging people in that same group on your own. It's just doesn't sit with me. I hope this made any sense. I just felt a bit like ranting too.

-Ugla.

Who says that people don't want to be boxed? My only aim of getting out of the boy box was to be put into the girl box, not get out of boxes altogether. That's not to say that i judge people negatively for wanting to escape boxes altogether, though. 

Quote from: pretty on October 15, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?

Nope, i'm one of those and i still don't want people to clock me for perceived male characteristics, including voice.

Quote

I support everyone's personal expression, and I respect that no two transitions are really alike. Passing just happens to be very important to me, and I suppose I've begun feeling alienated because my story and identity "conform to the transsexual narrative".

I don't feel as if I "conform to the transsexual narrative" at all, but passing is still very important to me and thankfully I'm making progress now. I also feel alienated from certain groups of trans people because I have no wish to break down the gender binary as far as my own life is concerned. I just wanted to live on the other side of it, and I know I'm not the only one who feels like that either. 

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on October 15, 2012, 12:52:32 PM
I have always said that it is all about "attitude".  Not the "Screw you" type or even the "I don't care" type.  It is more of the "I am woman.  Here me roar!".  Yes, I don't care what others think.  But then again anyone who wants to be themselves really don't.

haha! that's just the kind of attitude that will convince you that the muscular bearded woman indeed is a woman...

i wouldn't want to make light of anyone's efforts to fit in, since i realize that this is a very typical thing to do even for cis people, and very important for many. but it does make me happy to see that there are people who don't try to be anything other than themselves, and are accepted as just that

Quote from: pretty on October 15, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
Most girls would feel awful if they sounded and acted like a man.

My experience is different. For most of the mature females I know (maybe that excludes "girls") their feelings about themselves is NOT dependent on how they present themselves. Instead it's about the impact they make on the people they care about and their place in the world.

I have found the female who feels awful because of her looks and presentation to be a negative stereotype that is, thankfully, hard to find in reality.