Quote from: Nygeel on October 14, 2012, 11:23:06 PM
I think it should be as simple as getting a doctor's note and filling out forms. The note could be from a therapist saying you're trans and require a gender marker change, an end or gp saying you're taking hormones or a surgeon saying you've had a trans related surgery.

The most ideal situation would be not having gender markers in the first place.

For many documents in the UK it is permissable to use Miss or Ms without much of a problem.  However, to have your gender changed on your birth certificate, you are required to go before a legal panel and to provide evidence that you intend to live in your new gender for the rest of your life.

Voted no. Where I'm from, HRT for a year is enough to change your legal gender on everything.

Quote from: Pippa on October 15, 2012, 05:38:41 AM
For many documents in the UK it is permissable to use Miss or Ms without much of a problem.  However, to have your gender changed on your birth certificate, you are required to go before a legal panel and to provide evidence that you intend to live in your new gender for the rest of your life.

That's still not awesome. A friend of mine had his title changed to Mr years ago then got hormones privately because he was denied at a gender clinic. At over a year on hormones. He could no longer afford private and went to a clinic and was denied multiple times. I don't really think it's that simple and the system isn't so great.

Personally,, I think gender should be defined by how we define ourselves. if that "queers the world" so be it. Look at how much space even on this site is devoted to if someone looks "male enough"  or "female enough". Would it be great if we could just live in a world where everyone could just be themselves and not be shunted into some category based on mostly arbitrary criteria???

Indeed, I was just reading an article on something that I've been suggesting for quite sometime. It involves standardized psychological testing. many of those tests divide results based on "presenting gender". However, it is entirely possible that  a person taking this type of test who identifies as the opposite gender would score in the range common for that gender but uncommon for their biological gender. You would be surprised how many and what type of measures divide results along gender lines. However, someone like me would probably get an "invalid score" or at least an odd score as I still have a female body but identify (always internally and only now to others) fairly strongly as male. And of course, the examiner giving the tests - tests NEVER ask!

So in general - I say get rid of the silly markers on our forms or let folks just "pick and chose" - perhaps with "none of the above" being an option.

The criteria isn't entirely irrelevant for everything. If you switch the Olympics to gender-neutral categories, 75% of the women would disappear instantly. Testosterone is a muscle booster. Or prisons? Gender-neutral prisons under our current system would be disastrous.

And a lot of the world is still incredibly male-dominated. If you have no way to pick out an under-privileged class, you have no way to push for equal rights... Total removal of categorization would sweep a lot of problems under the carpet. Particularly health-related ones: like the millions and millions of women who don't exist throughout much of Central Asia and the Asia Pacific because of sex-selective abortion.

It just isn't as simple as "get rid of the silly markers." Those markers still serve definitive roles in our society. I'm not saying that getting rid of them shouldn't be an end goal... but it's an end goal that is a long, long way away and will require broad sweeping changes of our actual societies before that could even become a discussion.

Until that is even a glimmering possibility (which is extremely unlikely to be in ANY of our lifetimes), making the option available to trans* folks to shift their markers more easily and offering a third category (on SOME things) seems to be the best fix.

Most of our world is still based on that dichotomy of male/female. You can't just pull the plug suddenly and expect things to keep functioning. Not going to happen. And to be clear, I'm non-binary, so I'm personally invested in reducing the amount of gender crap I have to cope with on a daily basis. But that is going to be an incredibly slow, painful process. We can't even manage gender-neutral clothing stores yet. One step at a time.

I'm not sure re: getting rid of gender entirely, I know someone said this but I didn't. There are a few uses of it. (Perhaps less than one might think, but still.) Some of things that Sarah mentioned sound useful.

I think a third gender and/or a more simple way of changing genders to me makes sense. There are some instances where gender ID makes little sense. Does it really matter what gender you are on a driver's license. Perhaps it is more for insurance purposes (to charge males of a certain age higher rates?)  It shows the picture after all.

There could be more gender neutral situation in a clothing store. Put the stores in categories, for instance, but put the dressing rooms in a central place. Provide locks on the doors and an attendant or two (depends on size of store) there. This is how just about 100% of thrift stores I have been to work. Nobody seems to mind this is situation.


--Jay J

Quote from: TessaM on October 15, 2012, 06:44:11 PM
Ontario seems like god's country from my perspective. I really think ill be moving to Ottawa when im done school.
I wish Quebec would "get it." I am a woman. Do you know how embarassing it is to have to show my id to people? A bouncer at a bar once saw my id and started giving me ->-bleeped-<- in Italian. (Knew i was from my name.) What a prick, I didnt make a scene but I was so angry. "Bro why would you do this bro?!?!" Give me a break! Once a cop asked me for id too. She was furious! She said she was serious, and she needed MY id, not a friends. Do you know how embarassing it was for me to explain my situation to her? (Albeit when I did she was more sympathetic, and I was kinda flattered that im not longer recognizeable by the photo in my id card)

I'm sorry, Tessa. Quebec is still kind of brutal on those things. Have you considered changing the gender marker on your passport and using that for ID? It's federal so Quebec can't stop you from changing that. I used to use my passport for ID all the time before I finally got a driver's license.

You just need this: http://www.metamorpho-sis.com/blog/PPTC%20152%20-%20Request%20for%20PPT%20indicating%20different%20sex%20-%20BIL%20%2805-09%29.pdf

And a note from your doctor saying you are trans/a girl/living as female/whatever.

(And all the standard passport application crap of course.)

Well...a couple things with the whole gender marker bit. Right now women are housed with men in prison...I feel like there's a lot of prison system reform that's needed. In general there's trouble for small men in a men's prison similar to what people think there would be towards women. Right now the Olympics has a crummy system that doesn't allow a lot of trans people from competing, and shames a lot of women for performing well (one woman was forced to have a genital exam, not knowing what was going on because she was thought to be intersex). Plus, when it comes to gymnastics having a "more female" body or hormone levels can help in a lot of events as flexibility is valued instead of strictly strength.

My view on gender or sex markers is probably radically different from everyone else's. But I can say that I find some laws to be insanely outdated.

Quote from: TessaM on October 15, 2012, 07:02:54 PM
Thank you so much Sarah
I got my passport a week ago since I will be going to the states to speak with Dr.Spiegel. My passport now says male But I will be going to the passport office (2 minute drive) this weekend or after I get a note from my gp and get this changed asap!

No worries, I like being useful. <3

It will probably only give you a 2-year passport, fyi. Though when I did mine they gave me a 5-year one, so I dunno and they didn't even ask me for the doctor's letter... Sometimes they are a bit confused about this stuff because it's so uncommon.

Quote from: Nygeel on October 15, 2012, 07:09:27 PM
Well...a couple things with the whole gender marker bit. Right now women are housed with men in prison...I feel like there's a lot of prison system reform that's needed. In general there's trouble for small men in a men's prison similar to what people think there would be towards women. Right now the Olympics has a crummy system that doesn't allow a lot of trans people from competing, and shames a lot of women for performing well (one woman was forced to have a genital exam, not knowing what was going on because she was thought to be intersex). Plus, when it comes to gymnastics having a "more female" body or hormone levels can help in a lot of events as flexibility is valued instead of strictly strength.

Oh I totally agree the current system is ->-bleeped-<-ty. But you can't replace a system with nothing. You have to replace a system with another system. And there has to be political and social will to do that. You can't just go "get rid of gender markers" and expect it to work itself out. Seriously, do you really want to lose the ability to track pay equity? There are consequences to these things.

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 15, 2012, 07:19:32 PM
Oh I totally agree the current system is ->-bleeped-<-ty. But you can't replace a system with nothing. You have to replace a system with another system. And there has to be political and social will to do that. You can't just go "get rid of gender markers" and expect it to work itself out. Seriously, do you really want to lose the ability to track pay equity? There are consequences to these things.

And I'm cool with fixing everything else but removing gender markers from IDs and birth certificates are part of what I think needs to happen. There's other ways to track things like that.

Quote from: Nygeel on October 15, 2012, 08:20:56 PM
And I'm cool with fixing everything else but removing gender markers from IDs and birth certificates are part of what I think needs to happen. There's other ways to track things like that.

Just curious, but why do we have to do away with markers? To be honest, those can be incredibly useful in some situations, especially medical.

Quote from: Ayden on October 15, 2012, 08:51:34 PM
Just curious, but why do we have to do away with markers? To be honest, those can be incredibly useful in some situations, especially medical.

By getting rid of markers there's no need to change markers. Also with that, people who identify as neither male or female don't need some "other" marker. And with people who are born with an intersex condition, they're not assigned as male or female. They get the opportunity to sort of figure out their gender without the assignment. Granted, parents in this situation could raise their kid (IS) as whatever gender they see as most fit but doctors wouldn't feel the need to surgically assign a sex.

Well, I'm pretty sure a doctor has records of past medical history, which includes being transgender. I don't mind having gender distinctions. Just don't make it public information with a mere look at an ID. 

I'm really not a supporter of gender binary. I really wish there was a 3rd option. OR the option to choose no option. But our society definitely isn't there yet. Hell a lot of it can't even deal with the FACT that intersex actually exists (in like a hundred+ different forms no less). People are so caught up in there being only 2 models. And it's tied into everything – general society, Christian-based religions, school, work, sports and other activities, etc. etc. People need to be educated that trans (and intersex) are actually NORMAL states of human beings, should not have stigmas attached, and should be accepted just like regular male and regular female are accepted.

I've often wondered why exactly there even is a gender marker on a driver's license or ID? I really can't see any reason for that. Age, yes, but gender? It makes no sense. Even if you got in an accident and had to be medically treated doctors are going to find out, it's not like they look at your ID and go, "Oh this one's male ... okay ..." Birth certificate I can see but again, there should be a 3rd option there if anything doesn't fit the perfect male or perfect female mold (then let the kid decide when they're able if they want to go one way or the other or just stay as that 3rd option).

I voted 'no'. Cisgendered people don't need to sacrifice their fertility to be recognised as who they really are; it's cruel to stipulate that we should have to do so. How does forcing somebody to undergo surgery fit in with Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which guarantees everyone the right to security of person? And don't get me started about Article 16 which states that we all have the right to marry and to found a family.

Granted, trans people have a wide range of views on the subject of reproduction and I don't think there are any wrong answers when it comes to what we choose for ourselves. I firmly believe that everyone's reproductive rights must be a matter of personal choice. Nobody should be forced by The System to either keep or lose their reproductive ability, IMHO.

some people are just too afraid of "traps" for their own good.

i personally don't get how genitals can be so important in this matter, people should be given a chance to identify as themselves. if a gender marker is all that necessary, bigender people should get double sets of all their id papers, and the more netrois ones should get a no-gender marker. just to make it fair to everyone. i'm sure there are people who'd like both genders or more in their papers too

...getting rid of gender markers sounds like a good idea. in some cases it would be useful to know the chromosomal/hormonal/genital gender, but usually it isn't at all.

I chose other because while I believe genitals are a big part at least physical of what makes us who we are.  I have issue with SRS being required, but I also believes something needs to protect it from abuse.

My problem with it being required though is two fold, price is restrictive for many FTM/MTF.  Second Health Issues can put a stop to anyones SRS .  Price is very inclusive of FtM's where bottom surgury can cost up to 4x or more than MtF surgury,

As such you should not have to risk your financial well being, or health to change your gender marker.  At the same time, it can't be too easy as for non-dysphoric* individuals to change it on a whim.

Point is to stick with a gender marker till you die, we change it once to signify our true gender.

So yea its about 90% whack** but there is a small margin of logic.  That small margin of logic outweighs our plight imo as one needs to be 100% sure.  Its that 10% that helps perpetuate the shadow of doubt  (see sentence below)

But some states and countries don't require SRS.  There are other reasonable forms of proof that you are serious.


*I don't see dysphoria as an illness.  (obviously xD) But going by the legal medical definition.
**You were a Male born XX, or a Female born XY.  That is all there is to it~  Rather than getting the right chromosomes assigned to your brains development.

PSA: All statistics are BS, but it makes sense in my mind 

Quote from: Rita on October 16, 2012, 12:09:28 PM
So yea its about 90% whack** but there is a small margin of logic.  That small margin of logic outweighs our plight imo as one needs to be 100% sure.  Its that 10% that helps perpetuate the shadow of doubt  (see sentence below)

But some states and countries don't require SRS.  There are other reasonable forms of proof that you are serious.

Well, it sucks when a few people ruin it for a lot of others. However, once again, there are WAY MORE ways to prove you are serious than SRS. People tend to forget that hormones do a lot of serious stuff to people mentally//physically. Surgery isn't the only drastic part of transition. I've only been training my voice for a month, and I can already say that it's hard as heck to adjust. If someone lives as their true gender seriously, non-stop for a long time, I feel it's horrible to ask him/her to prove his/her commitment even more with serious surgery.

I'd like to hear from the two who voted yes.