Quote from: pretty on October 15, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
That is great if you found what works for you, but honestly, so what?  What are you trying to say?  Like, do you want everyone else to not put any effort into their transition and look, sound and act like a guy?  I'm sorry hon but if you go out of the house without changing your voice and not caring about your appearance, I would clock you.  And a lot of people would, but MOST people wouldn't say anything because it's not something you say normally unless you're juvenile.

But again, everybody can do what they want.  Most girls would feel awful if they sounded and acted like a man. I think you should understand that to other MTFs these are actually really important issues that cause a lot of distress and a lot of hurt.  Do what works for you but don't expect other people to because other people have different standards for themselves.

Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?

Please read what I actually said - I never said I don't care about my appearance. And I'm sure another trans woman would clock me, just like I'd clock them. But then, you'd probably clock my mother as well, she has a deeper voice than I and all the same masculine facial features I do. And as for being polite? This is Australia, so that's not likely - not in the slightest. There's just no way that 100% of the people who I interact with would be too polite to say anything.

Quote from: peky on October 15, 2012, 03:43:41 PM
One thing is to be midnful of ones manerism, behaviour, and proper dressing; and another different thing is to be so obessed as to be freaky and calling attention on oneself.

My mannerisms have always been typically female, as I said in the OP, so no problems there. Same with my behaviour. And whilst I do dress in a style that some might consider butch, what I wear and how I wear it is unmistakably female.

And as far as employment is concerned, I've now worked several places as me - I've no trouble gaining employment as a somewhat 'mannish' looking woman with a deep voice. This includes Australia's oldest company - which is also it's oldest bank. 

Quote
I've never thought of passing as a personal decision. I am a woman, and I want others to interact with me as such. And whether or not I like it, there's a social consensus about what people *generally* think of as female. But beyond that, I want to look, sound, and come across through body language and demeanor as female, because that's what feels most genuine to me.

Self-acceptance is obviously important in all instances, whether or not a person will be capable of truly passing. But there does seem to be the danger of swinging the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. If we start dismissing attempts to pass by changing one's voice and manner of speech, wearing dresses and makeup, and being clearly feminine in one's demeanor and characterizing these things as disingenuous or even worse, as internalized transphobia or cissexism, it's still invalidating to those who see these things as simply a part of their identity.

I support everyone's personal expression, and I respect that no two transitions are really alike. Passing just happens to be very important to me, and I suppose I've begun feeling alienated because my story and identity "conform to the transsexual narrative".

What I was really saying, I guess, is that I've done enough for me, as far as passing in concerned. And yes, there is a social consensus - but my experience has been that give the general population 75% of what they are expecting and they will fill in the rest, regardless of what the specific topic is.

Self-confidence is key. If you don't have it, you'll never pass regardless of what other work you have done.


My OP was not intended to offend. It was simply a comment to those that insist that in order to pass you must do A, B and C. I'm sure I'm going to get gasps of disbelief when I say this, but I pass as I am. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of others, it's the experience of my day to day life.

If you feel the need for FFS or have had it, good on you, it's your choice. If you've changed your voice, again, good on you. it's your choice. Perhaps my OP was a bit too rambling and could have been put better - it was intended as a comment to those that say you must do these things.

I guess that as long as you pass as you with the important people in your life, nobody else really matters.

Quote from: pretty on October 15, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
That is great if you found what works for you, but honestly, so what?  What are you trying to say?  Like, do you want everyone else to not put any effort into their transition and look, sound and act like a guy?  I'm sorry hon but if you go out of the house without changing your voice and not caring about your appearance, I would clock you.  And a lot of people would, but MOST people wouldn't say anything because it's not something you say normally unless you're juvenile.

But again, everybody can do what they want.  Most girls would feel awful if they sounded and acted like a man. I think you should understand that to other MTFs these are actually really important issues that cause a lot of distress and a lot of hurt.  Do what works for you but don't expect other people to because other people have different standards for themselves.

Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?

I'm not saying anything about how other people approach their lives. In fact the opposite. I'm totally supportive of people and will back people to the hilt to live thier lives in anyway they wish. However I am concerned about some people who end up in a terrible fix because they believe they cannot pass for a variety of reasons. In some cases they get extremely despondent and suffer depression and start to think of self harm. Why? Because they have no chance to correct their physical make up? Because they have no chance to afford FFS? Lots of becauses. I will support them in any way I can. If my comments about self acceptance and confidence help them that is everything.

I would love to look like a beautiful natural woman, maybe I do. No one comments about it and no one calls me by anything except female pronouns EVEN though most people I know also knew me when I was presenting as a guy.

Are people too polite to make comments? For Goddess sake I live in Australia, people are as polite as chainsaws. I work in a highly competitive job and it is dog eat dog. Keep smiling and make sure the knife goes in deep. If there is a weakness in someone exploit it before it is done to you.

Quote "Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?"

As a Mod I do not moderate threads I post in. But that is rude and I would like an apology.  I may be 'old' but I'm definitely not lesbian and even if I were, that remark is rude and against ToS.

When we discuss matters we do it with civility.

Cindy James

I don't think an apology is required for someone posting their view. It is the very definition of a forum. In fact it's required for something to be a forum. Also it was actually phrased as a question. People can ask questions. Was it offensive? I don't know. It wasn't to me but, perhaps it was offensive to others. I find any post that shares view points from the Abrahamic religions to be offensive but its ok because the important thing is not to respect the opinions of others, it is to respect their right to hold them, regardless of how offensive they may be. I don't ask white supremacists to apologise to me, I just consider them morons and continue on my merry way

I just love that some assume I don't care about passing - I do care.. And by any objective test, I pass.

Like I said, all I was really trying to say is that you don't always have to do certain things in order to pass.

Quote from: Cindy James on October 16, 2012, 03:02:56 AM
Quote "Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?"

As a Mod I do not moderate threads I post in. But that is rude and I would like an apology.  I may be 'old' but I'm definitely not lesbian and even if I were, that remark is rude and against ToS.

When we discuss matters we do it with civility.

Cindy James

I am sorry if I phrased that wrong but, I just mean... it's a different lifestyle?

Late transitioners are in a position where they built a life for themselves living as a man. Many had children with wives as a man. That is the mode they tackled all their difficulties with and got to a place where they are accepted and feel comfortable in society.

I do not think it is fair for someone who first found their place in a male life and transitioned to expect young MTFs who are creating their place in life, for the first time around, as a woman, to have the same carefree attitude about passing. Sure... maybe when you're older you wouldn't worry so severely about passing. Your future doesn't hinge on passing. If you don't pass to the general public, it's not really going to affect your life majorly in any way. And maybe you already have a status in life that you feel comfortable with, but you just want to make some personal changes to.

It is different as a young MTF though... every part of your future could be ruined or hurt by living publicly as a trans person, you probably have fewer strong allies than you can count on one hand and really I can only speak for myself but it means so, so much to me to be every bit of what I could be as a cis girl to whatever extent is possible. It's the only life I get.

I said lesbian as well because orientation is a dividing line on the kind of life a late transitioner lived. It's not an insult... but again, I was talking about the type of person who established their current place of life in a traditional father-and-husband role.

Quote from: kelly_aus on October 16, 2012, 03:22:57 AM
I just love that some assume I don't care about passing - I do care.. And by any objective test, I pass.

Like I said, all I was really trying to say is that you don't always have to do certain things in order to pass.

I can't speak for whoever sees you in public but that is beside the point...

I just think you have a different mindset than someone to whom it is very important to, if you wouldn't even put the effort in to make yourself that little bit more passable and feminine. And I don't think it is fair to expect it to be any less than extremely important to MTFs who have struggled and just want to start living their lives already.

Quote from: pretty on October 16, 2012, 03:54:27 AM
I am sorry if I phrased that wrong but, I just mean... it's a different lifestyle?

Late transitioners are in a position where they built a life for themselves living as a man. Many had children with wives as a man. That is the mode they tackled all their difficulties with and got to a place where they are accepted and feel comfortable in society.

I do not think it is fair for someone who first found their place in a male life and transitioned to expect young MTFs who are creating their place in life, for the first time around, as a woman, to have the same carefree attitude about passing. Sure... maybe when you're older you wouldn't worry so severely about passing. Your future doesn't hinge on passing. If you don't pass to the general public, it's not really going to affect your life majorly in any way. And maybe you already have a status in life that you feel comfortable with, but you just want to make some personal changes to.

It is different as a young MTF though... every part of your future could be ruined or hurt by living publicly as a trans person, you probably have fewer strong allies than you can count on one hand and really I can only speak for myself but it means so, so much to me to be every bit of what I could be as a cis girl to whatever extent is possible. It's the only life I get.

I said lesbian as well because orientation is a dividing line on the kind of life a late transitioner lived. It's not an insult... but again, I was talking about the type of person who established their current place of life in a traditional father-and-husband role.

I was never a husband or a father. I lived most of my life as a gay man.

QuoteI can't speak for whoever sees you in public but that is beside the point...

I just think you have a different mindset than someone to whom it is very important to, if you wouldn't even put the effort in to make yourself that little bit more passable and feminine. And I don't think it is fair to expect it to be any less than extremely important to MTFs who have struggled and just want to start living their lives already.

If I'd taken to heart what I got told by a bunch of people here, at least as far as things I had to do in order to pass (according to them), I'd still be hiding in a closet, frantically trying to save money and living a miserable life as a man.

I'm not saying to no one needs to have FFS or do voice work or whatever, I'm just saying it's not always as needed as some people say it is. Being honest, there are one or two things about my face I'd like to have fixed, but they are for my own vanity. 

Pretty,

Thank you.

And I apologise if I was a bit rough. I felt quite bad about your post, sometimes people do not know triggers.

I knew I was TG when I was about five years old. I livid in misery not knowing why I wasn't a girl. It was an age when TG people didn't exist. Of course they did. But there was no information.  It wasn't until I was 13 or so that I read an article about transvestites and thought, Oh maybe I'm one of those. I wasn't. I was a girl. I came out to my parents and wanted some hope and understanding. There wasn't any. With the help of my older sister I started to go out as me to discos and stuff ( I am old ). I was held down and raped so I knew what it was to be female.

I escaped and became me but there were no facilities to undergo sex change. I know people, including on this site, of my age who were locked up in psychiatric wards for being insane; their insanity? Being TG.

My care free attitude is built from pain. My concern is for the young. How can a young person who doesn't 'pass' live with that? How can a person who looks 'odd ' pass. No way. You do so by carrying yourself with pride and confidence.

It is, in my opinion, far far easier for young people to pass and live normal lives. Most countries have laws to prevent discrimination. In my youth people like us were locked up in male goals, their crime? Homosexuality. I'm sure you can imagine how pleasant their lives were.

What is important? To be yourself or to pass?

Passing is about being yourself.

Until you can accept your self in full confidence; there is no passing; and when you can- you pass


This is my last comment on this subject. I can be pm if people wish to discuss.

Cindy

With all due respect you're much older thus the expectations( on many levels) are not the same at all... About your voice people probably just assume you've been smoking/drinking scotch all your life.

So a lot of things you're shrugging off will be of much greater importance to younger transitionners who simply are in another league.

Whilst I agree that passing, in femininity terms, is not the be-all and end-all, for me it is important to do everything I can.

It becomes an issue of personal safety. Last June I was on holiday in France and had spent the whole two weeks dressed and out and about and had had no problem.

Feeling very confident, on the way home  I stopped in an aire which in hindsight I think was a traveller's site. As I was feeling very relaxed my guard was down and I couldn't care less when a young girl appeared to be taking an undue interest. The camper van was shortly surrounded by five cackling girls and I decided to make a dignified exit.

As I did so they made a dash to close the sliding gate on the exit and trap me in. Fortunately I made it out just as the menfolk were returning so I don't like to think what might have followed.

It is possible that I project the victim as I've always been described as under confident for reasons which I've never understood or been  able to change.

If I can't change my personality, perhaps I can change my femininity.

I also wish to pass as much as possible as I don't like to open myself up to public ridicule and, FYI, yes, I am "older"

 Passing is an extremely variable concept, given the subjective nature of everyone's personal experience of the universe. What it is to one is not true for everyone else, and one's experience with it may be agreed or disagreed with, but that experience does not change by that alone. The purpose of transition is to get to a point where our body-mind differences and discomforts are resolved to our own satisfaction, without necessary the satisfaction of others.

Therefore, live as you will and always pursue happiness. If you are happy, you are already there, and there is nothing more that needs doing.

An example of this is my perception of myself. I have people telling me that I pass - specifically that I'm cute, or pretty, and sometimes, somebody will even call me beautiful. I love those words. However, their meaning is partially lost on me, because I can't see my cuteness or prettiness most of the time. In my eyes, I don't pass. But yet, I do pass - I have just failed to fully realize it because I am partial. I am subjective. I really try to maintain an objective point of view, but such a goal is impossible with one's dealings with one's own self.

So, huzzah, Kelly. If you ask my opinion, I will always give it as honestly as I can. I am glad that you don't need it, though.

We all have differing views on presentation. Respect for others choices is essential. I am locking this thread. Devlyn