Quote from: DianaP on October 16, 2012, 03:21:23 PM
Well, it sucks when a few people ruin it for a lot of others. However, once again, there are WAY MORE ways to prove you are serious than SRS. People tend to forget that hormones do a lot of serious stuff to people mentally//physically. Surgery isn't the only drastic part of transition. I've only been training my voice for a month, and I can already say that it's hard as heck to adjust. If someone lives as their true gender seriously, non-stop for a long time, I feel it's horrible to ask him/her to prove his/her commitment even more with serious surgery.

I feel hormones play the largest role in mental health, they really give you that initial burst and sense and feeling of normalcy.  Its a beautiful feeling ^.^  one I will never forget.

Problem is most people seem to care more about its physical aspects.  Such as hunger, breasts growth, hip widening ect ect(for example in MtF).  It takes time for them to realize everything else, or it just becomes so subconciously normal that its not discussed or thought about.

In the same vein, many law makers don't see beyond the physical either.  And never have the ability to feel the power of aligning ones gender inside of your own mind, as well as through the use of hormones. 

Quote from: Snowpaw on October 16, 2012, 03:40:09 PM
I'd like to hear from the two who voted yes.

Considering the potential firestorm that may start as a result, I'd rather not. 

Quote from: Rita on October 16, 2012, 04:18:05 PM
I feel hormones play the largest role in mental health, they really give you that initial burst and sense and feeling of normalcy.  Its a beautiful feeling ^.^  one I will never forget.

Problem is most people seem to care more about its physical aspects.  Such as hunger, breasts growth, hip widening ect ect(for example in MtF).  It takes time for them to realize everything else, or it just becomes so subconciously normal that its not discussed or thought about.

Well I think that for ftms, T changes you the most-- physically and mentally. I haven't started yet so I am not positive about this.

--Jay J

While I, personally, wouldn't mind having bottom surgery, it would also be nice if they paid for it since it's not going to happen for a very long time otherwise (SRS is not covered in my province). In the meantime, I've got a lie on my ID. (They also won't let people correct that in my province anyway according to what I've heard.)
It also seems kind of backwards to put something as painless and uncomplicated as changing a gender marker after something as serious, irreversible, and potentially life threatening as major surgery.

Quote from: Anon on October 13, 2012, 07:54:53 PM
I live in BC, where T and top surg are covered by MSP, but not any type of lower surgery - even though the government requires at least a hysterectomy to change your birth certificate.

Are you sure about having lower surgery as a requirement in BC? Only Quebec requires that.

and yes, I voted for no. Asking for any lower surgery just to change gender marker is absolutely ridiculous. No question about that. People should have rights to control their own body and decide what's best for them. I'm sure they could come up with other solutions other than forcing people to risk their life and give them horrible financial problems.

Quote from: aleon515 on October 16, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
Well I think that for ftms, T changes you the most-- physically and mentally. I haven't started yet so I am not positive about this.

--Jay J

Anyone with boosted T will change physically(although not as drastic as someone taking T), but the mental aspects are most important.  I am pretty sure FtM's feel similar to MtF's in that regard~ with different dynamics of course.

I think the requirement should be hrt for a year. No cis person would ever do that anyway so you wouldn't have the 'pedophile  dude' in the 'wrong' restrooms that all the cis people are talking about

Quote from: Nygeel on October 14, 2012, 08:43:32 PM
and a little cissexist (we shouldn't have to make our genitals conform to what is considered okay to get the safety of a gender marker change).

That's also basically impossible to do currently.

I would understand it a little more if everyone were able to truly go "all the way" and get all the cis/biological structures and functions. lol. But even in that case it would be insisting on a binary... much more so, in fact, because it's not like everyone who's trans wants that, for various reasons. The surgeries as they are now, by definition, defy the gender binary. So it's actually more like a form of denial to require all that, it's like saying "to conform to the binary you have to do everything humanly possible, even though it still won't conform to the binary, and even though there are certainly considerable risks with such procedures."
lol.

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on October 17, 2012, 01:55:43 PM
I think the requirement should be hrt for a year. No cis person would ever do that anyway so you wouldn't have the 'pedophile  dude' in the 'wrong' restrooms that all the cis people are talking about

I don't see how that's any fairer than the SRS requirement. Just like SRS, HRT can be costly, hard to access, pose a risk to the health, won't turn a trans person into an exact copy of the opposite sex, and most importantly isn't desired or needed by all trans people.

If there has to be a requirement, it should be a signed letter from a psychiatrist trained in the matter (so cis people could hardly fool them) and nothing else.

About that, I also don't get the "cis people would abuse it" argument that has been mentioned several times now, I haven't seen any concrete examples backed up with factual proofs as to how it could be used to actually mess with the system.
The only one I can think of is straight cis people about to go to or already in jail changing their legal gender to be housed with the opposite gender. It wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if the prison system wasn't so effed up in the first place, but that is another problem all on its own. It could be circumvented by housing transgender inmates in a separate area and/or in individual cells - sure it's segregationist, and I believe that prison should be about protecting society rather than punishing individuals, , but if it comes down to choosing between punishing good citizens for the sake of criminals or the other way around, the latter is an obvious choice.

Ok, as a slight diversion, in regards to HRT, how costly are we talking about here? NYC, by the way.

Anywho, I agree with Sia's psychiatrist evaluation, regardless of how much I don't like psychiatrists. 

Quote from: John Smith on October 14, 2012, 10:53:23 PM
The required surgeries for FTM individuals is usually top surgery and oophorectomy (removing the ovaries - sterilisation) I believe.

whatever its bottom or top its still ridiculous. your cutting in another human being neither might they want it, neither do it do them good or you good,
the only reason is so we all can pretend to be "normal"

Natkat - I agree with you - all so people can be "normal". Which I think you are implying "binary" i really wish we could get rid of 'binary' and just have a 'spectrum'.

Interestingly, but somewhat out of left field - as we move more towards quantum in computing, in physics, and in mechanics, maybe our thinking will also evolve from "binary'. As we starting seeing the world as an infinite possibility between 0 and 1 maybe we will stop requiring people to be a "0" or a "1".

I know - not in my lifetime, or my kids, but maybe someday. 

Quote from: DianaP on October 17, 2012, 06:27:15 PM
Ok, as a slight diversion, in regards to HRT, how costly are we talking about here? NYC, by the way.

Anywho, I agree with Sia's psychiatrist evaluation, regardless of how much I don't like psychiatrists. 

HRT Is very CHEAP with or without insurance in NYC.  SRS is not 

Depending on your income level, a months worth of spirol/estradial only cost me ~$40-$50 total.  That is with 60/120 pills which I find to be a bargain compared to some I heard that paid $150 or so or more.  That is WITHOUT insurance, which I had the misfortune not to have atm due to paperwork idiocy on their end.

With medicaid plan, I was getting everything for only $5.

Alright, perfect. Honestly, I'd rather just pay out of pocket under such circumstances so my mom doesn't b**** when she sees the bill...  (She's not exactly accepting).

I did not vote, but I think people should be able to change their ID to the gender they associate with, without having to jump through any ridiculous hoops.  In my ideal world, you could tell people your name and say you're male (or female) and that would be it, and people would just get it and use the right pronouns.  Unfortunately most are fixated on how you look, and the rest are fixated on our genitals.

In my ideal world, also, if they are going to require SRS to change gender markers, then they should be the ones to pay for it.


Jay

Just tried posting this and it didn't work... hopefully I don't end up making the same post twice.

I think having any surgery should be enough to legally change your sex. So top surgery would be enough. Because some trans people don't want or can't get surgery, you should also be allowed to change it if you've been on hormones for at least 2 years. But definitely some type of physical transition has to be present, as I don't think people should be allowed to change their sex unless they are transgendered.
For licenses/ID's, I think it's fine for the gender marker to be changed with a therapist's note though.

Quote from: Sia on October 17, 2012, 06:18:05 PM
About that, I also don't get the "cis people would abuse it" argument that has been mentioned several times now, I haven't seen any concrete examples backed up with factual proofs as to how it could be used to actually mess with the system.

What if a regular dude goes into therapy, fakes a story about always feeling like a woman, and then is allowed to change his sex to female to avoid registering for the draft? Or to make it easier to get into college? (I know some schools, such as WPI, make it much easier for girls to get in because so few girls go there).

My feeling is this: This is a rather bizarre situation that probably has happened once (there are people who seem to like to pretend to be something they are not, so I won't say it hasn't happened). Seems like a pretty extreme situation. I'd say that any person who would be willing and able to pull this all off successful, probably would have gender issues to begin with. I can't really imagine a guy doing this. I'd say though ok. (There is no actual draft in the US anyway. I also think there should be required public service for everybody.) I actually think this is more the kind of situation that someone would come up with as an excuse.


--Jay J

Quote from: aleon515 on October 19, 2012, 07:49:34 PM
My feeling is this: This is a rather bizarre situation that probably has happened once (there are people who seem to like to pretend to be something they are not, so I won't say it hasn't happened). Seems like a pretty extreme situation. I'd say that any person who would be willing and able to pull this all off successful, probably would have gender issues to begin with. I can't really imagine a guy doing this. I'd say though ok. (There is no actual draft in the US anyway. I also think there should be required public service for everybody.) I actually think this is more the kind of situation that someone would come up with as an excuse.


--Jay J

Good post. I agree it's an extreme situation that wouldn't happen often. Some people are nuts though and do things I can never understand. So I could see someone actually trying this and I wouldn't be cool with it if the laws allowed this kind of thing to happen. I see your point though.

Thanks Chamillion. I'm guessing that the odd situations that people bring up are things someone might think of. But they are just odd. There are laws re: fraud and that sort of thing to discourage these types of behaviors. Yes, laws are broken every day. But I don't think that everyone should suffer due to fraudulent behavior by a very few. I actually do NOT think they are the reasons for the laws. I believe the main fight against them has to do with the gender binary. It's VERY important for some people!

--Jay J

Quote from: Sia on October 17, 2012, 06:18:05 PM
I don't see how that's any fairer than the SRS requirement. Just like SRS, HRT can be costly, hard to access, pose a risk to the health, won't turn a trans person into an exact copy of the opposite sex, and most importantly isn't desired or needed by all trans people.

If there has to be a requirement, it should be a signed letter from a psychiatrist trained in the matter (so cis people could hardly fool them) and nothing else.

About that, I also don't get the "cis people would abuse it" argument that has been mentioned several times now, I haven't seen any concrete examples backed up with factual proofs as to how it could be used to actually mess with the system.
The only one I can think of is straight cis people about to go to or already in jail changing their legal gender to be housed with the opposite gender. It wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if the prison system wasn't so effed up in the first place, but that is another problem all on its own. It could be circumvented by housing transgender inmates in a separate area and/or in individual cells - sure it's segregationist, and I believe that prison should be about protecting society rather than punishing individuals, , but if it comes down to choosing between punishing good citizens for the sake of criminals or the other way around, the latter is an obvious choice.

I wasn't really talking for my self there. I think we should just be able to change our gender markers without any of of hrt or anything, but I don't think that that would be possible. There is no way in hell that we (at least now. I don't know about the future) that we can make cis people think that's a good idea.  Remember there will always be transphobic people mothers that think that transwomen are just men that wants to rape women... And as far as I know. Nobody would ever take hrt because of that. I really wish it wasn't so, but it is.