There are big changes in the way JoAnn treats me lately.  I don't know if it's due to my honesty about transitioning, or if she just doesn't care.  I know she feels it's my life, and her reply to a question is often "Do what you want." She has said this several times, along with something like "Please wait a little longer to do that". 

I posted recently that she asked me not to change my appearance or come out to anyone in my family until after Christmas, and I agreed.  But since then to relieve my anxiety I've been allowing some of the subtle little atributes I practice and keep hidden to actually be out in public at times.  Things like my walk, posture, gestures, and speach (all need inprovement).  Plus a few small and quickly eliminated appearance things like wearing my ponytail higher up, using clear or opaque nail polish, and adding a couple new accessories, garments, or a more feminine looking ball cap.  When I band my ponytail higher I also pull it through the opening on the back of the ball cap, it expectedly brings some odd stares from people (same with the nail polish).  I'm getting use to the attention, and it rarely seems to bother JoAnn, and if it does she tells me.  Even the drastic trim of this ugly beard didn't stun her, and she once again just said "It's your life, do what you want."  Yes, I still have to keep a bit of that beard some of you saw in a photo last July.

So is this reaction kind of normal, or is JoAnn trying to deal with me through denial of some sort?  I can't read her on this, and it bothers me because I should after being together for 35 years.  Always felt I was good at emotional reads, but this has really got me stumped.  My therapist told me to not go overboard with what I'm doing, and I don't think I am.  So what gives? ....  Really.

Kathy   

Maybe it's just anxiety about the holidays coming up? Holidays with family is often emotionally charged just about for everyone... She may be worried too since you've been on HRT for a few months about family "noticing" and having to deal with awkward questions.

Anyway, hugs and hope it gets better.

She sounds pretty cool and like she's trying to work through what she can and can't personally deal with while encouraging you to do what you need to do. She probably doesn't know how accepting she can be yet, but regardless she doesn't want the person she's been with for 35 years to disappear over night.

A lot of young people actually wait until after Christmas to come out to their families.

I guess it could be denial, like "maybe if I keep pushing this off it will go away," but the fact that she keeps encouraging you to do what you want doesn't suggest secret denial... and when she doesn't want something, instead of telling you no she asks you to give her more time to get used to the idea.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on November 11, 2012, 08:47:51 AM
Honestly, I don't know if she would be talking like that unless she felt no emotional connection to her marriage anymore... if she's telling you it's your life, do what you want, then she's saying she doesn't care because she has distanced herself from you.

I don't know what to say A wife can put up with your presentation but you can't turn a straight woman into a lesbian, it just doesn't work that way and I think you have to understand how much of a betrayal it feels like to most wives

If you really think stuff maybe the only thing for the OP to do is have a conversation with her wife instead of asking us what we think and speculating.

Wives can become more accepting and I know a three others apart from my own who have done so, but I am bothered by the phrase 'Do what you want'. That worries me a lot and my nagging suspicion is that she has distanced herself emotionally. I suspect she wants to get through the Xmas season with as little bother as possible but after Xmas? I am not sure. I can see a few scenarios

1. She wants to work it through slowly in her own mind and adapt in her own time

2. She wants to see how the wider family reacts before deciding

3. She has already decided to separate but not until after Xmas

I am sorry to put this so brutally. Hope for number 1, but be prepared for number 3. I really hope she goes for number 1. I really do.

Yes, it's certainly possible for someone to supportively travel alongside a transitioning partner, while themselves passing from denial to grief to acceptance and finally joy - I've done it. So have several other partners I know, far more in fact than broke up with their trans spouses.

On the other hand, I'm afraid I gotta agree with those who are saying that there's no way for those of us who don't know her to be sure that *your* wife is doing that, and also that talking/asking JoAnn directly seem like the best way to go. (In fact, I was going to write a list much the same as Bev2's for possible outcomes.) I do think it's a positive sign that she HAS said "no" or "wait" in the past, because if she's willing to admit she's not ready or not happy, that makes it more likely to be genuine when she agrees.

35 years is a long time, and bound to make for an adjustment period. She seems to be both trying and making actual progress, but it's sometimes impossible to make the leap from "intellectually supportive and loving" to "genuinely accepting and happy," early on. She can't force her emotions any more than you can. Personally, I actually found that initial baby-steps-to-transition phase the hardest - both because everything was still so new, and because the list of "things that scare the hell out of me and haven't happened yet so I don't know how bad it'll be" was still nearly infinitely long. As each scary step was taken and I realized it wasn't nearly so scary in reality, I had less and less trouble.

Sympathy and good luck to you both.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on November 11, 2012, 08:47:51 AM
Honestly, I don't know if she would be talking like that unless she felt no emotional connection to her marriage anymore... if she's telling you it's your life, do what you want, then she's saying she doesn't care because she has distanced herself from you.

I don't know what to say A wife can put up with your presentation but you can't turn a straight woman into a lesbian, it just doesn't work that way and I think you have to understand how much of a betrayal it feels like to most wives

I think "girl you look fierce" has her finger on it! CIS wives will say one thing and mean something entirely different. Attitude and body language will tell you more than what she's saying. My advice is to take a long breakfast and have a real conversation. My spouse and I have worked through things that would have resulted in divorce for most people simply because we sat down multiple times for long, heartfelt and honest dialog. That's a conversation between two people where you both take time to really listen to what the other person is saying as opposed to a monolog where you speak and then think about other things as she blathers on about some insipid women's drivel. The monolog will get you living in a cardboard box under a bridge at neck snapping speed. Trust me on this!

Part of the reason that my wife and I are still together is that we do have long talks. Quite often there are a lot of tears and hugs but we are sure that we want to stay together and work this through. What Shantel says correct. You both need to talk.

The next time she says 'Do what you want' I suggest you counter with 'No. You are important to me and what you want counts as well.' Make her very aware that her opinion matters. Hopefully she will respond and tell you her opinion. If she pushes back with 'No, you decide' then I think things are looking bad.

Talk to her.

Maybe because most of us from New Jersey are cynics, but out of context as it is, to me "Do what you want" translates to  "I don't give a rat's ass anymore. As soon as I can figure out how, I am outta here"

When my wife and I have our serious talks about what's up with me (In my case I am desparetly trying to avoid transitioning. But after avoiding fighting this demon most of my life I took it on and am loosing) she phrases things much differently. One of her favorite being supportive lines is "You have to do what you need to do". One of her I am kind of scared lines and I have to withdraw is "The heart is going to do what it wants to do". There is  big difference between one's needs and one's wants.

I know I basically am kicking the table over or changing our implied agreement. (She always knew I was a T something) Her absolute major concern over what I am doing is my personal safety, followed by my happiness. Yes, facing loosing a husband is very much on her mind but that aspect has never been a cause of any fights, arguments or what have you. She has always been understanding, supportive (to a point), and tolerant of my needs over the many years we've been together.

She has been seeing over the past several years of my struggle fully transitioning sure isn't something I really want! Nearly 18 months of part-time is wearing on me. At times I wish I never dared to try again to step out into the world as the real me. I expected or kind of hoped for the same feelings about it I got 30 years earlier. Instead I found that I can be seen as and even accepted as a woman.


Decisions, decisions.....

Quote from: kathy b on November 11, 2012, 08:18:09 AM
There are big changes in the way JoAnn treats me lately.  I don't know if it's due to my honesty about transitioning, or if she just doesn't care.  I know she feels it's my life, and her reply to a question is often "Do what you want." She has said this several times, along with something like "Please wait a little longer to do that". 

I posted recently that she asked me not to change my appearance or come out to anyone in my family until after Christmas, and I agreed.  But since then to relieve my anxiety I've been allowing some of the subtle little atributes I practice and keep hidden to actually be out in public at times.  Things like my walk, posture, gestures, and speach (all need inprovement).  Plus a few small and quickly eliminated appearance things like wearing my ponytail higher up, using clear or opaque nail polish, and adding a couple new accessories, garments, or a more feminine looking ball cap.  When I band my ponytail higher I also pull it through the opening on the back of the ball cap, it expectedly brings some odd stares from people (same with the nail polish).  I'm getting use to the attention, and it rarely seems to bother JoAnn, and if it does she tells me.  Even the drastic trim of this ugly beard didn't stun her, and she once again just said "It's your life, do what you want."  Yes, I still have to keep a bit of that beard some of you saw in a photo last July.

So is this reaction kind of normal, or is JoAnn trying to deal with me through denial of some sort?  I can't read her on this, and it bothers me because I should after being together for 35 years.  Always felt I was good at emotional reads, but this has really got me stumped.  My therapist told me to not go overboard with what I'm doing, and I don't think I am.  So what gives? ....  Really.

Kathy   

Kathy, I didn't realize how parallel our lives are!

And it's amazing how similar all our lives are for the most part here

So many replies.  I didn't expect it.

JoAnn and I talk about these issues in brief but very honest discussions. Unfortunately she ends the conversations whenever the talk gets close to that emotional disclosure of long term solutions. 

I've been reading all your responses word by word, and I guess it all comes down to pretty much what most of you have said.  My therapist also went over some of this two months ago when she said to "Be ready to pack and move out with no more than a couple hours notice."  Maybe that time is coming up, and JoAnn and I will both be starting new and seperate lives on New Years day.  Who knows?  After all it's her choice.

Here's a few facts.

*  She said our marriage was pretty much over about 20 years ago when I first came out to her. 

*  She told me on Labor day that if I transitioned she would seperate, or divorce me.

*  She made it clear at least 4 times that she will not live with me as a woman, and will not be put in a situation where she is viewed as a lesbian.

*  She uses longful and wishfull phrases in daily banter like "I wish we could make this...", or "Too bad we can't just go ahead with...", and lately she says "You really need to finish building ...."

Yea, I guess I'd best be ready to pack and move shortly after Christmas

Kathy

...yeah, unfortunately, the additional info about how she refuses to live with a woman or with you while you transition changes things. I'm so sorry. Oftentimes transition does require that the spouse be willing to meet you more than halfway at first (because every change that brings joy and lessens pain for the person transitioning can cause pain and distress to their spouse), and it sounds like she's not willing to take even a step onto that path. In which case, yes, her "do what you want" seems a lot more likely to translate as "because I'm not sticking around for the consequences anymore."

Agreed that that changes things. Also the fact that one of her major fears is "being seen as a lesbian" shows that it's not really even about you. Even if things could work out between the two of you she doesn't want them to because of how she would be seen by others. It's possible for a wife to become more accepting, but not in that mindset where she doesn't even want to try to make things work out.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation. Good luck.

I'll be flat out honest and I'll probably be hurting some feelings here...

I'll say I've never been in a relationship with a woman, but I can tell you what I think when talking to a guy in a relationship. She is not supportive of this. Period. I saw that in your first post, but the additional info just clarifies it for everybody else.

Let me elabortate.

"Do what you want" = "I hate this, but I can't convince you otherwise"
"It's your life" = "I don't want any part of this with you"

Cmon... a girl in a relationship with you is going to want something to do with everything important in your life. If she can't influence it somehow, or feel the need for her input to be heard... she doesn't like you, or she doesn't like what you're doing at all. To add to that, if this has been ongoing for 20 years, she is not going to change.

What she feels matters, so I'll further offer some insight. From her perspective, she is probably thinking "I thought I knew this guy! I made a commitment to him and now he's not the same person? I feel betrayed... lied to. He knew this! He knew he was going to transition! He's known for such a long time and I've wasted so much of my life hoping he would stay the same. I believed him! I feel so stupid! How could I waste so much of my life on something so stupid and hopeless!"... that may disgust some girls here, but let's be serious. Put yourself in her shoes. We claim to be women here, our brains function like women, so we should be able to see these things from her eyes. But I give this perspective so  maybe you can TRY to get her to see things differently... not saying you can, but you know your wife more than I do of course.

Prepare for her to leave you. Straight up. I don't see her staying around if you transition. Either she is more important to you, or you are more important to yourself. That is the cold hard reality here.

And to be more flat out honest, I can't say I blame her... if I married somebody that later decided they wanted to transition... we would be through. I'd be there for them as a friend 100% (like any other trans woman), but that would be so difficult for me to stomach that I'd be in love with a girl... I'd be grossed out. I'd need some time alone too, probably. You think many women out there are just going to be able to flip a switch from long time soul mate to friend in an instant?

I feel for you married trans women out there... you all have a very difficult transition to be had if you weren't flat out open before your relationship got serious. But come on... how different is it from one of us straight women not telling a guy before deciding to sleep with him?

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on November 11, 2012, 11:46:32 AM
I'll be flat out honest and I'll probably be hurting some feelings here ...

.... I feel for you married trans women out there... you all have a very difficult transition to be had if you weren't flat out open before your relationship got serious. But come on... how different is it from one of us straight women not telling a guy before deciding to sleep with him?

Well that's a hell of a way to brighten my day Alaina.  Actually thank you for saying it.  I need to hear it all, even when it does hurt to think about what I've done to her.  Especially not being open and honest when we met and married.  When I look back on it there's no excuse for what I did. 

I will move out when she decides, and go on to whatever waits.  But until then I'll protect her however I can.

Love and Hugs  Kathy.

I'll only add this. That when it's over it doesn't mean that it's over.

My wife and I have been through a lot and finally got to the point where we let our marriage go. It was a painful process with a LOT of tears and sadness - one of the most difficult emotional experiences I've ever gone through. I experienced extreme anxiety, crying fits, and severe depression. The death of a lifelong dream is so difficult, especially when you love someone as a partner. But after a period of months and trying to navigate things compassionately and honestly with each other we finally decided to live together as 'roommates' for this period of our relationship. So for the last year we've had separate rooms and have separated some of our things out.

Last spring (one year after I went full time) we actually moved into a new house (renting) that is bigger and lets us each have our own space. We have a completely platonic relationship, but we now feel like sisters or best friends to each other. The sadness of the marriage being over is there, but it feels distant now and we don't regret being together that way in the past. Eventually I know she or I will find someone and we'll have some interesting waters to navigate, but I guess I feel like the worst is past us.

In the same way that I believe I deserve to live a life of authenticity, I believe she does too. I want to support her in finding her path the same way I would want her to support me (and despite the bumps; she has).

I know other couples too that have moved out, and then some time later they find their 'friendship' again and become like 'family' to each other even though their relationship is platonic.

So - when it's over, it doesn't mean it's over. It might just look different. But the thing is it doesn't have to be bad. You can each choose compassion and empathy, and even though your marriage may die, something beautiful and different may grow in its place. You could even end up feeling closer.

It's a bumpy road, and hard. But love can win - it might just look different than either of you ever expected. But it can be beautiful too.

Don't lose hope.

Quote from: kathy b on November 11, 2012, 12:39:41 PM
Well that's a hell of a way to brighten my day Alaina.  Actually thank you for saying it.  I need to hear it all, even when it does hurt to think about what I've done to her.  Especially not being open and honest when we met and married.  When I look back on it there's no excuse for what I did. 

I will move out when she decides, and go on to whatever waits.  But until then I'll protect her however I can.

Love and Hugs  Kathy.

You're welcome sweetheart. I hope for the best.

Since my wife doesn't have any real girlfriends she has sort of accepted me for that roll in her life, it gets quite confusing sometimes as she SO cant see herself intimate with a female even though my personality is pretty much the same as when we met. She has only known about the real me since March of this year after us being together for 12 years...I just couldn't keep it in anymore! and no matter how many times she asks "when or if are you going back to all boy mode" I just answer back with "This genie is never going back in the bottle!!!"

Some days she gets all excited to go shopping for girl clothes and is a big help in picking out just the right things for me since her fashion sense is amazing.
Then other days she gets all depressed that she lost the cute wonderful guy she married and pulls the "how can you do this to me" speech.

We both know that we are better off together than apart as we have been pretty much "best friends" since meeting. We never did have much of a sex life as she is not a sexual person at all and I have always had issues getting the boy parts to work...so its not like we will miss that at all.

But the biggest hurdle is my business that we depend on for half our income, there is NO way I can run it as my real self and being so well known across the country for what I do doesn't help things at all.

I just get so upset at the whole scenario that I could scream!!! and living under that bridge in a box, or running off to hide in some small apt in the city crosses my mind occasionally.

Alaina... I know you didn't say "all," and Kathy's wife does not (unfortunately) sound like she's going to fall on the good side of this one, but I couldn't resist reiterating that *some* wives do manage to cope and end up loving their new wife as much or more as they did before. I know at least two women, out of maybe two dozen couples of my acquaintance, who didn't identify as "lesbian" before, and still don't now, but do still have very happy romantic and sexual marriages. (Granted, both are OK with being perceived as lesbians by others who don't know the story, which is a major difference.) Plus three women married to trans men who DID consider themselves lesbians and had to adjust to being presumed straight!

(Personally, I'm bi but prefer women, so the bedroom adjustments were the easy part, and being taken for a lesbian is still inaccurate but closer to true than being assumed straight was. The first year was hellish, but now I'm honestly even happier than I was before. And our marriage is as romantic, loving, and yes, sexual as it ever was, although obviously some things have changed. She is still my soul mate.)

I fell into suicidal depression over the public insistence that it was flat-out impossible for a marriage to survive transition - finding out differently literally saved my life. So now I make a point of saying that it is possible, although obviously it takes a partner who's willing to do a tremendous amount of work on the relationship and struggle with their own feelings in order to support their trans spouse.

The sad thing is, my wife transitioned in 9 months; Kathy has clearly gone to much greater lengths to make the duration and timing of her transition easier for JoAnn, but if her wife isn't willing to try at all, there's nothing more she can do.

*Some* do. But in this instance, I'm gonna go with a 0.5% she will want to continue the marriage.