Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 10:09:34 PM
If you are not taking hormones for transition purposes but simply to look "androgynous" then you shouldn't be taking them and your doctor should have their medical license taken away. I consider that to be playing with hormones, they aren't a jacket you can try on for size.

So any doctor that allows informed consent for hormones should have their medical license taken away by this logic?

You just have to sign you know what it will do to you with informed consent, - not justify why you want to do it.

Hormones in this context are considered gender-confirming health care.  That means the whole spectrum, not just one side of the binary.

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on November 14, 2012, 12:07:53 PM
People just don't understand ftn's (can I call you that).  I myself felt like an ftn some time ago. Now I feel more like a male that don't really care about gender if that makes sense. That or an agender ftm that feels more like a guy.

A good statement that kind of sums up how I feel. I also feel that T is appropriate if the person knows the effects and which are permanent and is comfortable with them. I think there is a bit of anti-androgyne sentiment in some posters, but maybe they may not understand that non-binary folks do have gender dysphoria too.

--Jay J

Quote from: spacerace on November 14, 2012, 07:40:02 PM
So any doctor that allows informed consent for hormones should have their medical license taken away by this logic?

Informed consent is b.s to me.

We don't have informed consent for insulin, or any of those other drugs.
So we shouldn't have it with this one either.

ESPECIALLY considering how drastic and dangerous it can be.

So yes, any doctor that exercises informed consent should indeed face consequences.
It's crazy that HRT is given away like free freaking candy.

No matter my dysphoria, I did it the right way and went with a good doctor that diagnosed me first.
Any doctor that gives away ANY prescription without a medical diagnostic, to me is not a qualified doctor.
It's not a damn game.

I'm gonna stop myself right here before I get myself banned.
Sick of these people thinking it's a game. And the ones encouraging this aren't better.

Now go on, reply about how wrong I am.
Blah blah. I'm out of here.

There's no informed consent for insulin because there doesn't need to be. A simple blood sugar test is enough to show if you've got some sort of blood sugar problem, and from there diabetes can be diagnosed and insulin given. With GID there's no hard and fast rule, so things like informed concent suddenly become necessary. I suppose you could say that encourages 'playing' with hormones or thinking of them as a 'veauty product' but it doesn't. It enables people who need them to get them.   People who work in mental health talk a load of bull most of the time in my opinion. Some of them are good apparently - - just going off other here have said - but a lot of them are so airy-fairy that they don't have a clue about the real world. Maybe that's just my luck, but it proves that it does happen, and you can't be guaranteed to get hormones just because you're trans.   In my eyes informed consent is saying, "We can't accurately say if you do/do not have GIC, so we're going to tell you the risks and trust you on this one." It also works because not everyone needs the same things in order to be comfortable.   It's like when I had trigger finger, tried the steroid injection and it made it worse, he couldn't tell that the pain was worse, but he trusted me and gave me the operation. If he could trust a 13 year old to decide whether surgery was the best option for them then I can't see why they shouldn't trust an adult to have access to something which will helpl make them feel right in their own body.

Quote from: Jayr on November 14, 2012, 11:59:35 PM

No matter my dysphoria, I did it the right way and went with a good doctor that diagnosed me first.
Any doctor that gives away ANY prescription without a medical diagnostic, to me is not a qualified doctor.
It's not a damn game.

I'm gonna stop myself right here before I get myself banned.
Sick of these people thinking it's a game. And the ones encouraging this aren't better.

There is still a physical. Blood tests. Required check-ins.  The doctor is a MD practicing in a hospital.   It is not candy.  The only difference is there is not a pretense of a mental illness.

The GID diagnosis is a subjective test anyways - there are no raw numbers to confirm "trans-ness"

Who exactly is playing a game?  Seems to me people are just looking to be happy with themselves.

I gotta say, it really hurts to be invalidated by a member of your own community.  Don't we have enough to deal with from people who are ignorant, why eat our own?

Quote from: Jayr on November 14, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Sick of these people thinking it's a game. And the ones encouraging this aren't better.

You know what I'm sick of? People like you who know sh** all about what I've been through telling me and others like me that I don't have gender dysphoria and I don't have a right to a treatment of my choosing, but you do. You think I didn't get medical diagnosis first ... multiple times ... over years of my life? I'm sick of people like you telling me I'm playing some sort of "game" simply because I'm not transitioning the way you are. This flippant little attitude that you're so much better because you THINK that you've done something the "right" way and you THINK that everyone else isn't entitled to get a fraction of the treatment that will get them feeling more comfortable about themselves, is nauseating.

I'm also sick of one minute everyone cheering T like it's some sort of miracle with very little side effects and then the next saying it's "drastic and dangerous". Double standards, much?

Quote from: Jayr on November 14, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Informed consent is b.s to me.

So yes, any doctor that exercises informed consent should indeed face consequences.
It's crazy that HRT is given away like free freaking candy.

You don't think that just because you've been diagnosed with a disorder that there isn't "informed consent" with your own treatment? Had to sign any paper work at your doctors office? That's informed consent to allow them to treat you. So your statement is wrong. If you really thought it was b.s. you wouldn't be having any treatment at all. And exactly who is giving away HRT like candy?

T is part of a treatment for gender transition just as much as it's part of a treatment plan for gender dysphoria. Do I really need to point out the fact (again) that gender dysphoria has a wide variation? 

Just throw your little tantrum and get out, because obviously you don't have an open enough mind to even continue this discussion with ignorant, discriminatory, comments like that.

Quote from: Jayr on November 14, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Informed consent is b.s to me.

We don't have informed consent for insulin, or any of those other drugs.
So we shouldn't have it with this one either.

ESPECIALLY considering how drastic and dangerous it can be.

So yes, any doctor that exercises informed consent should indeed face consequences.
It's crazy that HRT is given away like free freaking candy.

No matter my dysphoria, I did it the right way and went with a good doctor that diagnosed me first.
Any doctor that gives away ANY prescription without a medical diagnostic, to me is not a qualified doctor.
It's not a damn game.

I'm gonna stop myself right here before I get myself banned.
Sick of these people thinking it's a game. And the ones encouraging this aren't better.

Now go on, reply about how wrong I am.
Blah blah. I'm out of here.

In my country it's impossible to get hrt if you are not hetrosexual and a vary stereo typical man/woman. Not many people fit that so it's only a small part that can get hrt that way. All us others need to look other ways. It is vary hard to do because they place I talked about before takes all the other places down one after one. It surely isn't free candy, it's more like hard work to find somewhere to get hrt.

Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 01:54:32 AM
Lol Not trying to get banned, so I'll leave it at that.

And if you're not trying to get banned, try being a little more considerate of what other people have been through before mouthing off. It's been a long time since someone's sent me into a mood to throw my fist through a wall, and I apologize for losing my cool, but really you're dissing me directly with that rant and completely disrespecting a whole cross section of trans/non-binary/andro people. Nevermind the "informed consent" misinformation you have. You're acting like you're the only legit trans person and everyone else is just "playing". WTF is that? Seriously.

Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 01:54:32 AM
The more places have informed consent; the more regretters we'll have.

I'll let that speak for itself.

Lol Not trying to get banned, so I'll leave it at that.

Instead of punting why not defend your opinion? 

The chance that someone, somewhere, might regret a decision is enough to tell people they can't transition unless it is done exactly the way you did it? Really?

Do you think that informed consent is going to suddenly cause droves of people to run out and ask for T?  What exactly is the impact you are afraid of?

Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 02:16:43 AM
Lol
Too lazy right now to focus on this thread..
Have fun getting upset and punching walls because of me.
-

You just told other trans people they're only "playing  a game", on a trans support forum.  "lol! it's really funny, haha I made them mad! silly internet people!"

Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 02:16:43 AM
Lol
Too lazy right now to focus on this thread..
Have fun getting upset and punching walls because of me.
-

Nice. Really. I love being lol'd at for who I am and for having the balls to stand up about it.

You know what's a game? You on this thread. And now that you've tracked mud in here and have no pot to piss in to defend your own flimsy opinion and misinformed "facts", you bounce. Well, played. Toodles.

Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 02:42:57 AM
Please tell me what is the point of arguing with a wall? Let me tell you; None.
I said what I thought, you take it how you want. We both strongly believe in something and neither will move from that stance.
Therefor there is no point in neither of us arguing/debating. It would be a waste of my time and your time.
I got heated earlier but now I'm cool. If you want to get mad and break your knuckles against a wall, go right ahead.
Once again; No point in neither of us defending our personal opinions since neither will budge.
If you want to see it as a sign of you 'winning' this 'debate'. That is fine by me. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
-

You're not just stating your opinion, you're attacking a whole range of people and telling them they shouldn't be allowed to get any treatment. At no time in this whole thread have I said that what you're doing by taking HRT and transitioning from female to male is wrong or that you shouldn't be allowed to do it or that you don't have the right to get the treatment you need. But that's what you're telling me and a whole range of other people. I get enough crap like this from non-trans people, I don't expect to get it from other trans people on what is supposed to be a SUPPORT forum.

The OP originally posted a few questions and didn't ask for your opinion, they asked for information. If you're going to give an opinion, don't be jerk about it and invalidate a whole cross section of people. This isn't about a debate now, it's about pointing out to someone who obviously doesn't get it that their responses, on a support forum, are inconsiderate and uncalled for. And when it was pointed out, you just made it worse by being flippant about it. And while it's clear you're not going to change your mind, you need to think really hard about how your responses are well beyond a simple opinion and how they can come off to other people.

Hi friends 

Time for a time out

Take a break, take a breath and find something constructive to do for awhile

Topic temporarily locked

Thank you

V M

Topic unlocked

Please keep the conversation on a discussion level and keep the site rules in mind, particularly rules 10, 11 and 15

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

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V M

OP, ok, so let's say you start T and stay on it long enough to have the changes you want, but in the meantime you get a bunch of other changes you don't want.  What are you going to do if the unwanted changes come on more strongly and faster than the wanted changes?  Stop T without getting anything you wanted?  Tough it out and have a whole bunch of stuff you didn't want?  I'm genuinely curious.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 15, 2012, 07:18:48 PM
OP, ok, so let's say you start T and stay on it long enough to have the changes you want, but in the meantime you get a bunch of other changes you don't want.  What are you going to do if the unwanted changes come on more strongly and faster than the wanted changes?  Stop T without getting anything you wanted?  Tough it out and have a whole bunch of stuff you didn't want?  I'm genuinely curious.

This is a very good question, and it's one I don't have a definite answer to. However, that's not for lack of thinking about it. I don't have a set time period that I'm planning on taking T. I'd take it one day, one week at a time, and when I reached a point where I was satisfied, or where the bad changes outweighed the good, I'd stop. Or I might not.

I'm sorry if that's not a satisfactory answer, but it's the best I've got. And it's not like I'm planning on starting tomorrow. I've done a lot of thinking, but I've a lot of thinking still to do.

Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 02:42:57 AM
personal opinions

It might be your ~personal opinion~, but when your ~personal opinion~ is that my path, my transition, my identity is invalid next to yours, I have a problem with you.

Oh lord.

Never said your identity was invalid buddy.

And if your ~personal opinion~ is that anyone can take HRT for whatever reason, I also have a problem with you.

VM made it clear we couldn't argue here so,

Agree to disagree.

The end.

Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 09:02:28 PM
And if your ~personal opinion~ is that anyone can take HRT for whatever reason, I also have a problem with you.

You know what? Yes. I believe that anyone should be able to modify their own body however they want. It's their body and their life, not mine.

I have an honestly curious question. It's going to sound harsh. Why do you care what I do with my body? Why would you limit me in my choices that have no bearing on anyone's life but my own?

Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 01:54:32 AM
The more places have informed consent; the more regretters we'll have.

I'll let that speak for itself.

Lol Not trying to get banned, so I'll leave it at that.

You are probably right.  The entire idea behing the therapy standards and the RLE criteria is to minimize regrets.

Informed consent sort of short circuits that system, and opens up the possibilities for mistakes.

Quote from: Jamie D on November 15, 2012, 09:14:33 PM
You are probably right.  The entire idea behing the therapy standards and the RLE criteria is to minimize regrets.

Informed consent sort of short circuits that system, and opens up the possibilities for mistakes.

What does it matter how many people regret their actions? I'm a firm believer that people should be given the freedom to make their own mistakes, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If I go on T and later regret it, no one but me cares. No one else is hurt.