I didn't mean anything by that. I was just saying okay. You didn't have to explain anything. 

There is no "maybe" about it.  Women are much better represented in many male-dominated fields than they were 50 years ago, and they're much more likely to wear pants (even when it's not "part of the job") and stick up for themselves in relationships.  Granted, being able to enter male-dominated fields and have better balance in relationships is fundamentally an empowerment issue, but power is one of those things that is stereotypically masculine.  In those respects where femininity is "inferior" to masculinity, women have abandoned femininity to a degree, and more power to them.

This difference, though, can be attributed to changes in social factors.  Who women are deep down is basically the same, but society pushes them to act in ways that can go against their individual or collective natures.  If they were free to act according to how they feel they should act (and men were to do the same), we could very well have to redefine masculinity and femininity.

Just putting my two cents in, going off a bit of what Kaelin said, about women going against their collective natures. I really don't like how people think femininity is inferior to masculinity. Typical feminine chores (like the 50s mentality) cooking, cleaning, caring for children, etc is in my opinion much more difficult than some job where a man's just gotta use his hands--I'll say farming or being out in the field, since I was born into a farm family it's a lot of work but it doesn't take a lot of thinking. Knowing how/when to punish a child DOES! When did society get so twisted, geez. I honestly love very feminine women and, judging the apartment shared by me and another man, it really needs a woman's touch, so to speak, ha ha.

Why are some women so bent on "acting more like a man" and one-upping them? Some things I just think are really done best by women. I did a very feminine job for years--I worked at a salon. I waxed and did nails and designs and everything you can think of. All of my coworkers were female, and even though I was born into a female body, I have big clunky man hands that get into the way of doing the delicate handiwork (though, I will say I was a damn good nail artist ). But I know many people are more comfortable with a woman doing their nails... So in this instance, it's good to be feminine!

I don't know if I make much sense, but I wished that some women did not feel so bad about what it is to be considered feminine--and the same goes for men. It is not weak to be a female, in fact without females, males wouldn't exist. Both sexes are equal in their ways, so I don't know how society decided men were better at everything...

On top of it, I actually prefer female doctors (with -most- things) because, I don't know, I feel more comfortable, maybe it's a 'maternal' thing.

Long story short: we need femininity!

Great post Sebastian, I'm with you! In my working days I saw women who could be talking to a client on one line while doing a computer spread sheet, directing office traffic and answering other lines all at the same time, it was truly amazing! Women are gifted at multitasking and most men are only able to focus on one thing at a time and get pissed when their line of thought is interrupted by someone. I do all the food preparation and dishes, but am only allowed to fold laundry and am rated as a dork for mixing colors with white in the wash and throwing bras in the dryer, so I'm banned from that chore. It's tough being a woman and admittedly I don't make the grade and never will. When I look in our bedroom closet I see racks of shoes on her side, you'd think I was married to a millipede, and there's never enough room or hangars for her clothes because these things are a necessity to be a stylish woman. No, being a woman is no easy task.

I think the division itself, masculine/feminine, is... is mass delusion. There are no masculine/feminine things. There are just things. And people do these things. And then we as people divide them up after the fact. Which is really screwed up. Because then people feel like in order to be masculine they have to be a certain way, and in order to be feminine they have to be a certain way. And that masculine things are better than feminine things, or that feminine things are better than masculine things... And the truth is that it doesn't matter. That how we label the thing is so irrelevant I can't even.

I don't even care if blokes are better at math "on average" or girls are more caring "on average." Because individuals are not "on average." They are their own unique mix of every single thing. And I want to see a person as a person, not as a representative for group X.

Sarah, although that is ideal, and how my boyfriend sees thing too, unfortunately society doesn't (and, in my lifetime, I don't think ever will, but I hope to see some improvement). In fact, our minds stereotype things because it is much easier for our brains to handle. We do this with everything. That's why it's easy to think "I'm a girl, there are a group of girls, I will probably get along with them better than the group of men over there, so I'll go approach those girls." This is just the basics of humanity, and in fact animals do this too. My chihuahua is intimidated by large dogs of any breed!

So, things can be masculine or feminine. They will be, and I don't think that will change. That's just how humans work. It isn't bad or good it's just the way things are. I really suggest looking into the psychology of it, because it's really cool. It's the same reason we have racial stereotypes or whatnot. Whether we think we're doing it or not, we are. If we aren't, well...something is probably wrong with us.

Yes, but there is a difference between being aware of the situation and being complicit in enforcing those standards of behaviour. And I disagree that it "isn't bad or good." I think the standards are incredibly destructive and make a mess of a lot of people's lives. It's the basis for sexism and homophobia and transphobia and lots of nasty things.

And I guess I'm still an idealist because, while I don't think I'm going to see that division abolished, I do think the standards have a lot more flex in them than they used to and that we can keep moving in that direction.

And, yes, I'm aware that I have my own internalized issues around gender norms. But I'm not okay with that. And I'm working on it.

(A bit of crass language, FYI, but I won't censor because the word was not censored when it was used toward me.)

I agree with you actually. These "file folders" that our brains categorize people into can be useful for us, but damaging for other people. It's why I've gotten called a "stupid ->-bleeped-<-" just because I have dark skin, a big nose and curly hair. Those people don't know anything about my intelligence (I'll forgive the derogatory term because people that use words like that are just ignorant arses) but it's easy to categorize all people with dark skin, big noses and curly hair into one little folder. But like you said, this is the basis for damaging stereotypes like "stupid ->-bleeped-<-" or, in our cases "feminine" or "masculine." It can be a good thing, when I was a kid, raised as a girl, I had friends because they were girls and I chose to talk to them because I could relate to them. I mean, we all had the same thing in our pants. That doesn't mean we had the same interests, but it was a start. Kind of like how a lot of us here on this site can relate because we all are actively in part of the LGBTQ community. That doesn't mean we're all going to be friends but it's kind of like one of those file folders.

Can you think about how difficult it would be to have to overly examine every stranger we met? I mean let's say I'm a straight male (I'm pansexual but I just want to make this analogy easier). If I am going to have sex with someone it is going to be someone that I am attracted to. Vagina and breasts is what it boils down to because I'm straight and I have absolutely zero interest in having sex with a man. Well, if we were in a bar looking to hook up, if feminine and masculine were obliterated, just think how hard that would be. You'd have to look at everyone objectively and think, well, can I have sex with this person? Can I be attracted to them? It's much easier to look at someone with breasts wearing a skirt and say, oh, she's a girl, I'm going to flirt with her--this has nothing to do with whether those parts of her body were there when she went through puberty but a female is a female.

If masculine or feminine things were just completely obliterated, I might as well not transition, because hell, it doesn't matter if I wear a skirt. You see what I mean?

What you see happening is actually what I think would be okay to happen--let them have "flex." I want to one day have all or at least most men not care about being read as gay. Or be able to wear a skirt. Or not take it as an insult to be called "girly." Where women aren't put off by buzzed hair or becoming muscular. A world like that would be great.

I envy the way you think, though. I am a pessimistic realist--it's really the most boring kind of person to be, ha ha. You are very right in the things you say I'm just a little more of a downer about it.

Quote from: sebastianwood on December 03, 2012, 12:24:47 PM
I envy the way you think, though. I am a pessimistic realist--it's really the most boring kind of person to be, ha ha. You are very right in the things you say I'm just a little more of a downer about it.

I just clipped your last comment for the sake of saving space, but want to say that your entire commentary is very thoughtful and I get the impression that you're very intelligent and thoughtful indeed! But I'd say rather than pessimistic, let's go with pragmatic realist and this short, pasty-faced MtF/FtM type androgynous individual that I am is in full agreement with your thoughts.

Thank you! I'm very flattered. I'm not that smart, I just took a few Psych classes and it was enough to interest me. I'm glad we can agree! Society will always be messed up, but at least we can change how we feel internally and that makes it a bit better, ha ha.

QuoteMy chihuahua is intimidated by large dogs of any breed!

My sister has a medium sized dog who gets pushed around by her smaller dog, and both of them get along spectacularly with her larger greyhound.  Furthermore, my experience with chihuahuas (which is just with my Nana's) is that they are riled up by *anything* (dog, human, whatever) they are not familiar with, including other small dogs.

QuoteI had friends because they were girls and I chose to talk to them because I could relate to them. I mean, we all had the same thing in our pants.

The reason you could talk to them probably had little to do with you having the same thing in your pants -- it probably had more to do with society socializing you similarly because you have the same thing in your pants.  Boys tend to be told to think in certain ways and have certain ideas, and girls are treated in kind.  The rub here is that if a particular form of socialization is good for girls, it is probably good for boys as well.  There are certain natural tendencies for boys and girls that diverge, but they should be socialized individually on their merits rather than gender correlations -- besides, boys and girls have a habit of defying the stereotype, and some "differences" in gender are so grossly overstated and misunderstood to be useful in the first place (girls in middle school do just as well in math as boys... and girls do slightly worse in high school, probably due to society scaring them away from the topic rather than them being intrinsically worse at it).

QuoteCan you think about how difficult it would be to have to overly examine every stranger we met?

When looking at someone new, I don't think we need to have a list of information about said person (whether looking at a young woman and using our stereotypes to think "beautiful, assertive, friendly" or asking lots of questions to come up with our information).  It requires that we be able to interact with each person as if we have little idea of who they are.  This approach does not necessarily require us to be a "clueless idiot" -- we do not have to trust anything a stranger tells us -- but it does invite us to be a little more friendly towards people with a less pleasant appearance, and it reminds us that the sharpest-looking person could be cheating on their significant other.

QuoteVagina and breasts is what it boils down to because I'm straight and I have absolutely zero interest in having sex with a man.... If masculine or feminine things were just completely obliterated, I might as well not transition, because hell, it doesn't matter if I wear a skirt.

Generally speaking, while vaginas are not "visible" in day-to-day interaction, you can usually tell who has breasts.  Just point your eyes a little below horizontal.

I don't think the idea about skirts is a very strong one, because while people who wear skirts are overwhelmingly female, the overwhelmingly proportion of women (at least in the West) are already not wearing skirts or dresses at any given time.  Even then, straight guys have a pretty easy time picking out all the women in society, even if they're wearing jeans.  While the style of clothes can be suggestive of one's sex, we can still look at body shape, voice, and name as more reliable indicators, and body shape and voice are relatively stable -- even with total neutrality, women will still tend to have different-sounding voices, relatively-large hips, and bigger lumps coming out of the fronts of their chests.  Granted, someone looking at a person in a skirt or dress may rush to conclusions more quickly than with a person wearing jeans, but basically the only way "it gets better" is if enough exceptions pop up that a skirt is a less reliable indicator of sex or gender.

I'm a little more on the optimistic side of things, but maybe even more than that, I just have to try and see for myself.

I think you're missing my point. As much as you want to analyze it, this is just how the brain actually works. It's the basis of human psychology and interacting. You're taking my words too literal when many were metaphors! Half of the things were just silly, like talking about my dog. Just to show an example, I know dogs are different. Just like people. Just like we do not see the world the same way.

QuoteThe reason you could talk to them probably had little to do with you having the same thing in your pants -- it probably had more to do with society socializing you similarly because you have the same thing in your pants.

That was actually exactly my point, ma'am!

QuoteWhen looking at someone new, I don't think we need to have a list of information about said person (whether looking at a young woman and using our stereotypes to think "beautiful, assertive, friendly" or asking lots of questions to come up with our information). 

This is also the point. You don't need to have that list. Your brain does. Without you realizing it.

What do you think of when I say "some hoodlum from the ghetto." Black kid, low socio-economic status, baggy jeans, right? That's what most people think, anyway, just upon initial mental image. Because we have categorized that stereotype, whether we consciously know it being accurate or not. Obviously, when it comes down to it, a hoodlum from the ghetto can be any race, and his style choice isn't important.

But yeah, when it comes down to it, whether we want to stereotype or not, this is just how humans work! You can disagree all you want but I'd suggest reading some Psych Today, it's a great website and talks about this sort of thing. If I knew a more technical term I'd tell you, but I don't remember it I'm afraid.

That's all I was trying to illustrate, not saying it was right or not!

I've taken a few psychology courses in my time.

People stereotype, but the nature and intensity of those stereotypes changes.  The stereotype of men being more rational and women being better caretakers endures, but the strength of these ideas are weaker.  We all can do our part to erode their influence if we don't limit our nature in order to conform and if we support others in that regard.  We can't completely end stereotypes any more than police can completely end crime, but one can persist nonetheless to help make the world a little better.

Quote from: Seb on December 03, 2012, 12:24:47 PM
You'd have to look at everyone objectively and think, well, can I have sex with this person? Can I be attracted to them? It's much easier to look at someone with breasts wearing a skirt and say, oh, she's a girl, I'm going to flirt with her--this has nothing to do with whether those parts of her body were there when she went through puberty but a female is a female.

I'm a gay female. I'm primarily attracted to androgynous-presenting females. So... Poor straight people who have a crappy capacity to tell the shape of someone's body beyond clothing styles? Sure it's easier. It's also dumb and limiting.

QuoteIf masculine or feminine things were just completely obliterated, I might as well not transition, because hell, it doesn't matter if I wear a skirt. You see what I mean?

No, I really don't. I guess I should explain what I am: I am a transsexual female. I'm essentially post-transition. Which for me meant HRT, SRS, facial surgery, electrolysis, changing my name and my legal gender markers. I also tend to wear boy clothes, because I like them. I'm over 6' tall, flat as hell, and with an androgynous haircut. I look like / am read as an andro dyke. I'm also pretty private about my medical history - I'm just Sarah out in day-to-day life. I don't feel like my transition was a mistake or anything... Or that my presentation style is particularly relevant to how I felt about my body.

QuoteWhat you see happening is actually what I think would be okay to happen--let them have "flex." I want to one day have all or at least most men not care about being read as gay. Or be able to wear a skirt. Or not take it as an insult to be called "girly." Where women aren't put off by buzzed hair or becoming muscular. A world like that would be great.

Thank you for thinking that allowing us to have flex is okay. And, yes, that would be a nice world to live in.

QuoteI envy the way you think, though. I am a pessimistic realist--it's really the most boring kind of person to be, ha ha. You are very right in the things you say I'm just a little more of a downer about it.

*Shrug* I was also raised by socialist ex-hippy parents and live in one of the more progressive cities in the world and work in an arts industry. In my world... there is already a lot of flex.

I think we can all do with a bit more complexity in our perceptions of people. I know about the simplifying function of categorization. I just think it's dysfunctional when used in this way. And I don't buy the "oh well that's just the way we are" argument. That is provably false. There have been societies with far more rigid and far more lax gender norms. I like lax. I'd like non-existant. But I'll settle for lax.

About the quoted stuff, your situation is a lot different but I'm trying to cater to the main demographic, cis straight people. I'm trans and pansexual, trust me I know that way of thinking is limited. Just making an example. Not all cis straight people are that barbaric, I just was making an example...

And, well, there is about 0 flex in the  Midwest, so that's definitely the way WE are over here. The only progressive people I know get shat on by everyone else.

I guess, when it boils down to it, I don't care about one facet of society because society sucks and I'll be dead before it doesn't suck. Just hopefully in the time I'm living it will suck considerably less, but I might as well not get hung up about anything because I've got too much of a life to be an activist. So I'm just following the current. Not liking where it's taking me, but I ain't strong enough (or just too damn lazy) to swim upstream.

And, well, there is about 0 flex in the  Midwest, so that's definitely the way WE are over here. The only progressive people I know get shat on by everyone else.

If you're getting covered in crap all the time, move out from under the butthole.  How many dumps does it take for someone to thing "wow, I should move"?

I'm 19 and I had a steady job. Not too easy to move when you're broke!

"When you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose."  robert zimmerman, ie zimmy, ie bob dylan

Though what you say makes sense - even seems rational, like clear headed thinking, understanding reality and all that - the real solid truth is the exact opposite.  You'll never find it easier to move than it would be right now.  You got nothing, hey, that makes packing easy and you don't need half a semi-trailer to ship it in.  You got no job, so no reason to stay.  Since you have zip, you ain't going to need much space wherever you are going (for example, at the zenith of my material sickness I needed at least a 4, but preferably a 5, bedroom house and a two car garage where ever I was going to land). 

I'm actually moving to Milwaukee when my lease runs out, to be closer to my partner's family. It isn't nearly as bad as where I'm from and there are quite some progressive parts of the city. Well, I'll make it sometime but honestly I don't feel too bad where I'm at either. xD

Quote from: tekla on December 04, 2012, 11:46:30 PM
"When you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose."  robert zimmerman, ie zimmy, ie bob dylan

Though what you say makes sense - even seems rational, like clear headed thinking, understanding reality and all that - the real solid truth is the exact opposite.  You'll never find it easier to move than it would be right now.  You got nothing, hey, that makes packing easy and you don't need half a semi-trailer to ship it in.  You got no job, so no reason to stay.  Since you have zip, you ain't going to need much space wherever you are going (for example, at the zenith of my material sickness I needed at least a 4, but preferably a 5, bedroom house and a two car garage where ever I was going to land).

Good point! Seems like the more stuff you own, the more it owns you. I'm finding that after downsizing to a smaller house, taking tons of stuff to Goodwill and adopting a more Spartan lifestyle that less is better, quality over quantity. I am amazed at the number of storage facilities that have popped up in recent years where people pay to store mountains of sh*t that they will never use or possibly even look at again. It's reminiscent of the picture of Pegasus the winged white horse trying to fly while a dozen ropes have him tethered to the ground.