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Masculine backlash?

Started by Simon, December 03, 2012, 10:47:42 PM

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unknown

Let's make a: I'm me enough for me campaign  :D


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FTMDiaries

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 04, 2012, 06:06:01 AM
Let's make a: I'm me enough for me campaign  :D
Somehow I can see that making its way into my signature... ;)





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Natkat

The trans enough is the most ignorant and transphobic agument in the trans-comunety for anything.

Its only used to put people in boxes and jugde them.

The trans enough thing had been used for threatment of transexuals in certain countrys (ex my own).
"so if your not trans enough we dont want to threat you" like in the documentary of transexuals in iran, where they show how your only allowed to be steryotypical male or female.
if your gay your to die, and your not allowed to be anything near "the middle line" of gender spectum or roles. only options are to be "a real woman" or "a real man" which supress alot of people to foce themself into either of those categories.

thats NOT trans*-accepting its just accepting the binary of certain people. like saying you like all children, but in fact you only like the white ones.

The bad point for those system are it force people into doing thing who really arnt there own choice to get accepted. But even without this system I still heard this pretty much all the time.
---------
I guess a part of it is due to sociaty. the typical male pattern is to be "a real man" and I think many transguys go thought a phrase of there life where they fight alot to get accepted as a man. being a "real man". (I did so myself) In order to fit in you would have to go to there level of male-supression and give up certain things for yourself.

Another part is the. "I dont want to be confussed with a ->-bleeped-<-", "I dont want people to think im so femenin" bla bla bla.. aguments.

Now honestly thats a ignorant agument, so we are going to hate all kind of people diffrent from outself because we are scared we would be compared? it seams ridiculous. also femenine trans guys can say the same.
ex for me its annoying having the typical masculine trans steryptype on like. "oh so when are you going to get a penis? your packing? your want to cut your hair?" or are we simple going to make sign, of what we are allowed and not allowed to do.
---
I honestly dont get why we cant get along femenine vs masculine.
Im actually not agenst very manly guys or very femenine and so on, neither agenst transexuals or ->-bleeped-<-s, im only agenst the hate because it dose no good for anyone.
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DriftingCrow

Yeah, I can see what Simon is saying.

From watching some videos on Youtube and reading the comments, sometimes people take what transguys, especially the more masculine ones, are saying out of context and spin it to make it seem like they are these evil male chauvinists. Like, one guy was just saying that he wanted more male friends, and the comments just went crazy with people saying "what?! your female friends aren't good enough for you? now that you pass, you've just become another guy touting his male privilege." I just thought that was a little crazy, because he wasn't saying that he hated women or didn't want female friends.

I do see some need for a "trans enough" project though, since some guys do get crap for being on the femme side; but now there's guys who get crap for being on the more masculine side.
ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ
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Seb

Awesome, another aspie on here. Actually thought I might be alone!

Space and Nat, I have also seen where your side comes from. The middle of the spectrum getting the bad end of things. But I have been subjected to it too, especially for not announcing my trans status every time I walk into a room...I don't live stealth but I'm not going to talk about it unless I have to. But a lot of people think doing that is "denying that you're trans" which is a bunch of malarkey. Being trans is part of something that made me who I am today and I don't want to give that up.

I am sort of in your position though. I will never be a cis male so I don't get hung up about it. I will probably never have a penis and that's okay with me. Luckily, I have a partner who accepts everything about me (and has been with me through transition--in fact he very much likes androgyny so I was in luck). And because of that (he's the only person I got because I don't have family) I'm able to accept myself, move on, and do what I can because I have a support system.

And that's all I can do. That's all any of us can do. I wish there wasn't this rift of just "how" trans you are.

When I look about people much farther down the line than me, I get a little jealous but mostly I'm just proud that another brother fulfilled his life.
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Simon

Quote from: LearnedHand on December 04, 2012, 08:52:50 AM
From watching some videos on Youtube and reading the comments, sometimes people take what transguys, especially the more masculine ones, are saying out of context and spin it to make it seem like they are these evil male chauvinists.

Exactly, that is what I am seeing. I do think a lot of that comes from guys who haven't began to medically transition and don't fully understand how different people feel after they have been medically transitioning for awhile. Transition changes you. People treating you as if you were always in the body you present as brings a lot of transguys out of their shell (or former "safe zone"). Many transsexuals want to cross over and be seen as whole people who were born cis gendered. Nothing wrong with that. People should live their lives how they see fit. It happens all the time.

As you mentioned YouTube is a great representation of how transmen evolve. I would bet you $100 that 3 years from now 95% of the transmen on YouTube now won't be there in 2015. YT is just a platform many receive support on and once they transition to a point where they can assimilate in cis gendered society they do. Nothing wrong with that but that is how it normally goes.

Quote from: Seb on December 04, 2012, 12:49:41 PM
I have been subjected to it too, especially for not announcing my trans status every time I walk into a room...I don't live stealth but I'm not going to talk about it unless I have to. But a lot of people think doing that is "denying that you're trans" which is a bunch of malarkey.

Yep, come across that too. Why would anyone want to integrate that into how they describe themselves? Should I meet someone, shake hands, and say "I'm Simon the ->-bleeped-<-"? Um..NO, lol. I just don't understand the need to be everyone's token ->-bleeped-<-. I never deny it IF I am asked in a respectful and dignified manner. If I am asked in a crude fashion I will either say no or simply say it is nobody's business what I am or am not.
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Biscuit_Stix

Quote from: FTMDiaries on December 04, 2012, 05:37:52 AM
Y'know, this is one of the things I love about being an Aspie: I don't have to give two hoots about whether other people think I'm 'trans enough' or 'masculine enough' or even 'feminine enough'. I'm glad that Susan's is a non-judgemental place where we can be ourselves, without all that '->-bleeped-<-r than thou' nonsense.

Thanks for that, it made me really laugh :p

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on December 04, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
There's a great deal of anti-masculine propaganda on "FTM" groups now. I've left several Facebook groups because of it.  I feel like I have little in common with the majority of the transguys in groups.  I'm not gay, I'm traditionally a binary-identified male and masculine, I don't like glitter and I'm not into feminism.

This makes absolutely no sense. How can you be anti-masculine and FTM. I mean, I get that some dudes are more 'dude'ly than others, but that's just the way people are. Some men are cowboys, some are twinks, some are caught in the middle. Women are the same. You must be somewhat pro-dude because you are one, so why the self-hate? It's like backwards feminism. I'll admit, this thread has been pretty confusing to me. I've seen a lot of FtM vs MtF hate, but I didn't know there was discrimination within the Ftm group. I must be way out of the loop on this one. This makes me glad I don't have a lot of friends, haha.
What the hell was that?!                 From every wound there is a scar,
Spaceball 1.                                     and every scar tells a story.
*gasp* They've gone to plaid!        A story that says,
                                                        "I survived."
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Natkat

Quote from: Seb on December 04, 2012, 12:49:41 PM
Awesome, another aspie on here. Actually thought I might be alone!

Space and Nat, I have also seen where your side comes from. The middle of the spectrum getting the bad end of things. But I have been subjected to it too, especially for not announcing my trans status every time I walk into a room...I don't live stealth but I'm not going to talk about it unless I have to. But a lot of people think doing that is "denying that you're trans" which is a bunch of malarkey. Being trans is part of something that made me who I am today and I don't want to give that up.

I am sort of in your position though. I will never be a cis male so I don't get hung up about it. I will probably never have a penis and that's okay with me. Luckily, I have a partner who accepts everything about me (and has been with me through transition--in fact he very much likes androgyny so I was in luck). And because of that (he's the only person I got because I don't have family) I'm able to accept myself, move on, and do what I can because I have a support system.

And that's all I can do. That's all any of us can do. I wish there wasn't this rift of just "how" trans you are.

When I look about people much farther down the line than me, I get a little jealous but mostly I'm just proud that another brother fulfilled his life.
Honestly, I dont feel like saying i'm trans each time either. I say it if it got a meaning in it, but I dont feel like I should do it all the time.
Now I also get the. "sure you shall always say your trans" and no I dont do that always. I do it when I feel its has something to do with my, or is on the topic. (or times where the system gets confussed)

But I dont see what it got to do with the whole accepting the masculine or femenine trans folks to do? its not like your nessesarry outed because your friend is trans as well.






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insideontheoutside

As far as the Youtube thing goes, do any of you happen to look at comments on ANY videos? There's always some ->-bleeped-<- who comes along and starts something or spouts off like they think they know it all or try to degrade the person in the video. Doesn't matter what the video is about. I think over the years the internet has just bread a particular brand of idiot who probably has a lot of life issues of their own but likes to go around and try to post things to harass or degrade other people and make themselves feel better. It's classic psychology in action and it knows no boundaries.

While we may all have one or more things in common (being trans, having dysphoria, similar life experiences regarding feelings of being in the wrong body or wrong role in society, etc. etc.) there's a hell of a lot that makes up each person and it's why we're all individuals and not carbon copy clones. Variety is the spice of life, as they say, but the problem is that people like to associate more often with people who are more similar to themselves than dissimilar. When putting that theory under the trans microscope, gender identity and physical presentation would be pretty important, major issues. Therefore, you get very masculine trans guys having a large commonality just like you have femme guys having a commonality and hence the different "factions" or groups. I think it's more inherent human behavior to do something like that than it is to just accept everyone 100% and have no problems with differences. If humans really were like that there's be no hate, discrimination, etc. in the world.

To me, what needs to happen is that people need to realize that the aspect we all share with the most importance is still being trans. That's still the #1 thing we all have common. Now if you're not really trans, but identify as more genderqueer or something else, that's okay too because it falls under the same larger, all-encompassing umbrella of "gender identity".

I'm going to go on a tangent here but bear with me because I think it has relevance to the "larger picture". So there's an LGBT community/movement, right? Lesbian ... gay ... bisexual and then transsexual. To me, one of those things is not like the others. Sure, people can say that they were "born this way" in that they did not choose who they are sexually attracted to. But that's still sexual attraction, which to me, is different from gender identity. Transsexuals do not choose to be transsexual. It's my belief that we are born this way. But it doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction – that's another layer on top of trans. So you can be trans and gay, trans and lesbian, trans and bi, trans and poly, etc. Right there is a fundamental separation between the T's and the rest of the LGB's and in my personal opinion I feel like an outsider even in that larger community. Now, since the T's are already a little like outsiders I think a lot of the behavior could be a result of this. We're not fully accepted by "cis" people and we're not fully accepted by the LGB's because we just flat out different on a level that they don't and they can't fully understand it. They can sympathize with some of the things we've had to go through (discrimination, being chastised by family, losing friendships/relationships, etc. etc. all because of who you are), but they can never understand what it's like to have the "wrong body" and fully be aware of that 24/7. Because your sexual preference is not hetro, you do not need to undergo medical treatment or change your body at all to align with your mind (I won't go into the fact that there once was a medical treatment for being gay ... just talking present day here). Still LGBT is all one supposed community. But I think the fundamental differences are what has created some of the unsavory behavior. For instance, certain butch lesbians who hate trans guys. All sorts of issues like the, "You just want to be a man to have that male privilege" I think can be related here. Because a large portion of trans people just want to disappear into the binary world, they take crap from a lot of different angles.

I'm certainly not saying that the the majority of people act this way. One of my best friend's is gay and totally accepts me and my lifestyle. But there's a percentage that are going to have issues.

"Cis" people will also never truly understand. I've tried to explain it metaphorically to people but they just can't grasp the concept. It's absolutely foreign to them. And with a segment of the population, anything "foreign" like that is going to cause them to put up their defenses. And sometimes those defenses are lashing out at those who are different.

As for liking certain things and acting a certain way and looking a certain way ... that should be strictly up to the individual and people should not get sh*t about that, but we're circling back to the beginning again where people who like certain things, look a certain way, etc. are going to associate most with other people who like the same things, etc. That's not to say people don't associate at all with others who are different. To me, that's what makes life fun. If I only hung around with or talked to people with my same interests, I'd personally find that boring as hell.

I like guns, muscle cars, horror, sci-fi, comic books, action/adventure, camping, fishing ... and I also like stuff like baking cookies, art, fashion, sewing ... These are all things that make me, me. And I happen to look andro/more female because I really can't do anything about that, so that's just me too. I don't like being lumped into the categories of "female"and "femme" because I'm not, but I am all the time just because of the way I look. What's worse is that I'm mostly okay with the way I look, which opens me up for even more of that crap. I've gotten plenty of the "you're not really male ... not male enough ... not trans enough ... blah blah blah."
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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O_O

When I was involved in GLBT stuff I noticed that many trans men tended to hang out with lesbians.  Also many trans women hung out with gay men, in fact long ago I hung out at a gay bar because I felt it was a safe place for trans women and many other trans women obviously felt the same way.

Later I realized that many lesbians liked trans men because they considered them women and many gay men liked to hang out with trans women because they considered them men.

People who transition who cannot afford surgery, top surgery and especially bottom surgery tend to be sorta stuck in the middle, regardless of where they actually want to be.  And it is human nature to believe we like something a certain way when we cannot have it another way, I believe it is referred to "sour grapes" in psychology, a reference to Aristotle's story of the fox and the grapes which illustrates the situation.  Someone who cannot have something decides that "something" is not worth having and as a result of that "decision" he or she may become irritated by seeing others who possess that something and make negative comments.

The transition phenomenon has created a byproduct of transition, the trans person.  People originally transitioned to be their target sex but once people began transitioning they started to adopt an identity of being trans.  We are told to be proud of our trans identity and we find ourselves in a sort of virtual "community" where it seems like the ideas we adopt (about being trans) will either impact our "community" positively or negatively.

So it only seems appropriate to think thoughts that will benefit our brothers and sisters and it only seems right to adopt the idea of being trans, to become trans-identified to the greater point and being target sex identified has to humbly step down and honor trans identification as the greater good.

But really...  That is a product of being a member of a group and of adopting group think.  The group isn't going to walk you through your life.  You only owe allegiance to yourself.  Besides, you gotta save yourself before you can become a rescuer.  And perhaps rescuing people is better left in the hands of those who are more qualified.  The "community" does not depend upon you for it's survival.  The community will not die if you are too manly or too feminine.  Rather it is healthy for people to continue to go in their own directions, not only for themselves but so that others will be more certain to realize there are options.  Some of us want those sweet grapes!

Mmmm delicious grapes.
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Berserk

Quote from: Elijah on December 03, 2012, 11:05:23 PM
I think it is three things

1) what you said, insecurity.  Trying to beat each other in masculinity.  "I'm more trans then you" means "I deserve transition more, I deserve for it to be easier for me to transition."

2) When you work hard to pass and you are having trouble, and you come across a trans guy who is ok displaying his chest, or he loves tons of girly things and corsets and stuff.  it just hits a nerve.  Here you are trying your hardest to pass and they are wearing girls clothes because they want to.
It makes you not take them seriously.  It makes you think why are they trans.  Note, this is not to be confused with transmen drag queens, thats different.  Thats for temporary fun.

3)"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke.

Hard to tell if you're being serious here? If so, this is exactly why these campaigns are necessary...

Quote from: Simon on December 04, 2012, 02:32:11 AM
Wow, I'm sorry you've had other trans people come at you like that. I've never experienced or even seen that happening (I would step in if I did).

I don't understand how a trans person could have a go at another trans person. We've all been in the same predicament. We've all felt dysphoria and that feeling of not belonging.

I've dealt with transguys acting as if my struggles aren't as valid as theirs because I naturally produce T (that is ending in 10 days with my hysto) but nobody has been blatantly rude.  Generally they're just dismissive.

I'm surprised you haven't noticed it because it happens a lot on this forum, actually. Not to mention people supporting upholding the "criteria" for being granted T/surgery etc and the continued pathologisation of trans people by making hard and fast lines of what is and isn't trans. And of course the extreme reactions to transguys who choose to give birth or breastfeed as transguys instead of falling inline with cissexist bull. I also wonder if perhaps you haven't noticed it because you're not feminine yourself.

I also tend to wonder if this is more about the loss of privilege in spaces that were traditionally hypermasculine (transguy spaces in the past and more traditionalist groups now) than the so-called "privileging" of feminine guys.

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on December 04, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
There's a great deal of anti-masculine propaganda on "FTM" groups now.  I've left several Facebook groups because of it.  I feel like I have little in common with the majority of the transguys in groups.  I'm not gay, I'm traditionally a binary-identified male and masculine, I don't like glitter and I'm not into feminism.

And there we go... This idea of so-called "anti-masculine propaganda"... masculinity is beyond privileged in most trans spaces especially in online forums, not to mention society in general. Just because those who are made to feel like ->-bleeped-<- because of it try to carve a little space for themselves does not mean they are "anti-masculine." I generally come off as pretty masculine...I've never had problems in such groups. People will react more to anti-feminist attitudes, though, and rightfully so. Also interesting interesting that you threw sexuality in there as though it's so damn easy to be a gay transguy...

Quote from: Simon on December 04, 2012, 02:22:32 PM
Exactly, that is what I am seeing. I do think a lot of that comes from guys who haven't began to medically transition and don't fully understand how different people feel after they have been medically transitioning for awhile. Transition changes you. People treating you as if you were always in the body you present as brings a lot of transguys out of their shell (or former "safe zone"). Many transsexuals want to cross over and be seen as whole people who were born cis gendered. Nothing wrong with that. People should live their lives how they see fit. It happens all the time.

I wish people would really speak for themselves when they make these sweeping generalisations about how transguys feel about the way they interact with society. There is definitely a massive divide between guys who think that being born trans is a "defect" that they need to fix rather than a part of human diversity, to the point where its almost being apologist towards cis society, and guys who are see themselves as just as deserving of rights and recognition as cis people. Being out as trans would not be a big deal if society were actually accepting, so obviously there's a lot of work to be done. I highly doubt the people you're talking about are reacting to the fact that some trans people don't want to be out as trans or even identify as trans. However, I have noticed that people who do so also tend to be very rigid about gender and also tend to be very conservative politically...kind of like the anti-feminist stuff that comes up in these sorts of threads. And that is very important to react to from a rights perspective.
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aleon515

Beserk, along those lines, the guy (who is trans and not the slightest bit feminine) who runs our trans center thinks that trans guys get treated better than transgals due to male privilege. If you think about it it makes sense. Transguys, even non-passing ones like myself, can easily dress in male clothes, no issues. Our non-passing sisters dress in female clothes and it is plenty hard. Worth thinking about.

I feel male, but I don't think of myself as completely and totally masculine. I think I am feeling more and more easy with the other side of me. But if someone feels super jock, that's there right as well.

--Jay
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Nygeel

Eh, I see more feminine trans guys get crap from other trans guys. Sometimes it's about "who really deserves T" and the T shortage.  Other times it's general gender policing.
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Simon

I wasn't going to respond because now it almost seems like I'm going to get told I'm wrong no matter what viewpoint I share about this topic. Maybe some of you are correct and I don't see it because I'm not feminine. Then again I could say the same thing back at you. Maybe you don't see how more masculine guys are made to feel like we're wrong for expressing ourselves as well.

The only thing I can see is that sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree.
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spacerace

Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:15:19 AM
I wasn't going to respond because now it almost seems like I'm going to get told I'm wrong no matter what viewpoint I share about this topic. Maybe some of you are correct and I don't see it because I'm not feminine. Then again I could say the same thing back at you. Maybe you don't see how more masculine guys are made to feel like we're wrong for expressing ourselves as well.

The only thing I can see is that sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree.

I think people are just saying that it is happening on both sides, not that you are wrong. I am glad you made your posts.

However,  as Berserk pointed out, you can see it happening to people in the middle even on this thread, directly in response to your post:

Quote from: Elijah on December 03, 2012, 11:05:23 PM

3)"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke.

If he's being facetious to make a point, my apologies, but saying there are "less trans" people at all is saying someone isn't trans enough.

Comments like this seem purposefully exclusionary to parts of our community.  You can want to transition and still see yourself more in the middle of the gender spectrum, and it doesn't make you "less trans".  It certainly doesn't invalidate every other trans person.  When/if trans people are seen as a joke to other people, why wouldn't we want to change that instead of reinforcing it?
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Berserk

Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:15:19 AM
I wasn't going to respond because now it almost seems like I'm going to get told I'm wrong no matter what viewpoint I share about this topic. Maybe some of you are correct and I don't see it because I'm not feminine. Then again I could say the same thing back at you. Maybe you don't see how more masculine guys are made to feel like we're wrong for expressing ourselves as well.

The only thing I can see is that sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree.

Just because someone disagrees with the your idea about the way masculine vs. feminine transguys are treated doesn't necessarily mean that the people disagreeing are feminine appearing or identifying themselves. For example, I've never been read as feminine and tend to be seen as very masculine. I don't identify either way because I don't see it as mattering now that I'm comfortable as a transguy, but in this case your argument seems to be based around others' perceptions of transguys as masculine, so I figured I'd throw that out there. I think it's important to realise that, because people often think that because someone doesn't just automatically "side" with masculine men that they must not be masculine men themselves. They must be somehow viewed as feminine, androgynous (because anything short of manly man is "feminine" in society's eyes), really a woman, gay (because lord knows all gay or queer men must be feminine or "girlier" than straight-identified men) etc. etc. I went to a protest against a so-called "men's issues" (the type who thinks men are systemically "oppressed" by women in society and that women have immense social privilege over men) group on campus a few weeks ago and those same assumptions were made. It was great to see a nice amount of outwardly appearing "big burly masculine cisdudes" taking an active role in organising the rally, setting up petitions against the group and basically trying to get it out there that cismen are feminists, cismen can recognise cismale privilege and work towards women's rights, and not only that but that masculine people as a whole can do the same by realising the privilege they have within a greater social context that praises masculinity and maleness. By realising that groups like women and trans groups or other similar groups are necessary in order to make certain voices heard that are often drowned out institutionally and socially within greater society.

I do think it's important for people who are often degraded in society to have a place to make their voices heard. In this case feminine guys or guys who just don't feel like they fit into the medical establishment's idea of "trans enough to get T/surgery/be taken seriously." And we've seen this in this thread, in this forum. People shamed Trevor MacDonald for wanting to lead a breastfeeding group where he was breastfeeding his own child as "making transguys look bad/society won't take us seriously with people like this running around." People never stopped shaming Thomas Beatie for giving birth to his own children for the same reasons. On this forum you do have people often mirroring the psychiatric/medical protocols of determining who "deserves" hormones or surgery. Many places you go to get approved for either HRT or surgery (if obtained via public health care), the reality is that if you're bi, if you're gay, if you're queer (because they really do want to mould transguys into cis and straight looking men, instead of allowing any kind of variation or diversity), if you're feminine, if you aren't following they're tips to "pass" more or be more "masculine"...they have the power to deny you what you need, and they'll only give you your "cookie" if you fit decently enough into the masculine cookie cutter and play the social role they want you to. Some places are changing, yes...but a lot of them are still backwards as hell. It seems to make masculine straight-identified transguys resent feminine/andro/gay/queer transguys and it seems a lot of guys don't realise that it's because of those idiotic criteria, because they are essentially making us compete against each other for "the cookie" (as they see it). But what is happening these days is that instead of being shamed into conformity, guys who don't fit the mould are trying to be more visible, trying to say "yes, we are legitimately trans!" because that's been denied them so often. As a transguy who generally presents as masculine, I've never felt like anyone was trying to make me feel lesser. I also don't see people calling me out on something ->-bleeped-<-ed up I say or do as an offense. I see people wanting their turn at the table to talk about their experience outside of the masculine-presenting experience. It doesn't mean we all can't get our experience, but I do see why people push back hard when there are transguys basically mirroring and supporting the traditional trans narrative/the discrimination that is still perpetuated by the psychiatric/medical establishment.
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FullThrottleMalehem

I think I understand the gist of what you were saying Simon and I agree there is no reason for this "trans enough" nonsense.

I'm actually surprised to read this thread. I've seen plenty of backlash about trans men "not being masculine enough", like they are destroying things for other trans men if they aren't the extreme stereotypical male. I know plenty of cis men who aren't stereotypical males in every way, but they are definitely male and identify as male. I don't like the idea overall that we all have to fit into a neat little gender box and to be expected to fit into society's traditional "male" and "female" stereotypes and roles.
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Simon

Ok, this thread did a complete 180. It went from masculine transmen feeling like we can't assert ourselves to bringing up examples of downtrodden feminine transmen and their struggles.

It's not about them per say. It's about masculine guys who feel like if we are who we are then we are looked at as if we are feminine bashing neanderthals who grunt while dragging our knuckles on the ground as we walk, lol. From the looks of it I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Someone just had to bring up Thomas Beatie. I will admit that I don't understand why someone would transition to that point, decide to get pregnant (which was fine and dandy..his life, whatever), and then (here is where the problem is) decide to make himself a public spectacle. I may get stoned in here for saying this but you know what...it's my opinion so take it or leave it. I think Thomas Beatie set us back at least a decade as far as how the public sees transsexual men. We are such a small minority within a minority that anytime one of us gets in the public spotlight that is what people remember. You do become representative of everyone. He did a piss poor job, imo.

I simply think that masculine transman visibility is dwindling. It has nothing to do with someone being labeled "trans enough" or deeming that feminine transmen aren't worthy of this, that, or the other. I wish them all the best..I really do. However, I think trying to gain acceptance for them (publically) that society sees even further out on the limb is putting the cart before the horse.

Again, just responding to what this thread has become (that was never intended).

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Natkat

Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 02:01:08 PM

Well I know a couple of transguys who been pregnant, 1 had been in the media another one had consider it stickly.
the first one tried to live as a woman in all ways including getting pregnant before transition, the other one Just wanted kids really badly and there had been no other ways to get kids than to get pregnant.
The one who went to the media did it to make awareness to political change some laws about transgenders rights to have children. the other one considered it due to people's bad reacting of transguys having kids, and there very limited knowlegde. I don't know alot about Thomas But I think he have done for something like the same reason, Really wanted kids, done what he could and made some awareness for things to get better.
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Now, I do understand the Backslap of maculinety, I actually got it myself,
and I belive in such a thing as male-opression (even when I belive women oppression is worse in general)

But Honestly, it's hard to take your serious when you talk about how your been put down for being maculine when you at the same time put people who arn't typically maculine by saying how bad they are.

Really, what do you exept the reaction to be??
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Simon

Quote from: Natkat on December 05, 2012, 03:34:01 PM
But Honestly, it's hard to take your serious when you talk about how your been put down for being maculine when you at the same time put people who arn't typically maculine by saying how bad they are.

Really, what do you exept the reaction to be??

When did I say anyone is "bad" or less worthy as a man because they're feminine? Point that out because I don't think I said that anywhere. I talked about how limited trans visibility is and when it is in the public arena how the public scrutinizes ALL of us based on the very few who go into the media spotlight.
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