Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:15:19 AM
I wasn't going to respond because now it almost seems like I'm going to get told I'm wrong no matter what viewpoint I share about this topic. Maybe some of you are correct and I
....
The only thing I can see is that sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree.

Well I don't know if you are wrong so much as that I just don't agree with you. Defend to the death (well maybe not quite THAT!)

--Jay

Quote from: FullThrottleMalehem on December 05, 2012, 12:55:18 PM
I'm actually surprised to read this thread. I've seen plenty of backlash about trans men "not being masculine enough", like they are destroying things for other trans men if they aren't the extreme stereotypical male. I know plenty of cis men who aren't stereotypical males in every way, but they are definitely male and identify as male.

This was kind of the point I was making in my first post. That even a percentage of MAAB people have been a lot less stereotypically masculine in recent years.

Anyway, this is one of those damned if you do damned if you don't kind of situations. Society still doesn't accept trans people as a whole (hell look how long it's taken to sort of accept being gay as normal). So plenty of non-trans people out there are still going to see even the most masculine trans guy as a women (or even worse ... like a "freak"), if they find out. So a lot of the more masculine trans guys just completely disappear into "cis" male society. Is that wrong? No. But if they do that, then they get a backlash from the trans community that they're not supporting the whole trans thing by just claiming all that "male privilege" (or get told they're anti-women, blah blah blah).

The way I see it though is that that particular group of trans guys you usually only hear from them while they're transitioning ... then they disappear and just blend into the other clearly identifiable males in society. However, if you happen to be one of those femme or andro guys, you can expect to get sh*t for the long run because you don't fit into society's mold. Even though MAAB guys can also get sh*t for not being "strictly male", I think they're more equipped, for lack of a better word, to deal with it, because unlike trans guys they've never actually had to live their life as a female and be given that role in society. They're also only getting it from other "cis" people whereas the trans guys are getting it from other trans guys and "cis" people.

Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:53:04 PM
I talked about how limited trans visibility is and when it is in the public arena how the public scrutinizes ALL of us based on the very few who go into the media spotlight.

I see your point, Simon, and I understand it. You'd be correct that the masses judge by the few spot-light trans(wo)men, and it's unfair when each experience, trans-related or not, is unique and tailored to the individual. The issue is not whether a transman is "trans enough"-- too masculine or too feminine -- to be the "ideal" transman or just a man, in fact, but rather the conceived notion that all definitions of transgender are cookie cutter, one size fits all.

You're also correct in saying that because of the "trans enough" movement, it did draw a line, an exclusion of you (not singular, but what you stand for)...I think, no matter, if you are a masculine transman or a feminine transman, there are going to be moments when you believe you won't meet or hear anyone like you. With over six billion people in the world, it's not likely you won't find the masculine community you are looking for, but maybe it's a good thing too...you can set yourself as a you-man, rather than someone else's standard of masculine.

Maybe I'm not fully understanding the discussion here,
But I'm very thankful for the 'Trans Enough' movement, I fully support it and I made a video for it like plenty of other trans guys.
Of course, I'm on the different end of the spectrum from you as far as masculinity goes - the only thing really masculine about me is the fact that I want a dick.
I can understand though, that you'd feel like there's a negative side to being 'too masculine,'
In the trans community, I've run across many more feminine guys than masculine.
...It's too early, can't think properly...not sure where I was going with this.

Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:53:04 PM
When did I say anyone is "bad" or less worthy as a man because they're feminine? Point that out because I don't think I said that anywhere. I talked about how limited trans visibility is and when it is in the public arena how the public scrutinizes ALL of us based on the very few who go into the media spotlight.

Femenine or just not the typical.
---
When you talk about Thomas you talk as your opinion is his putting transpeople into a bad light, because his not what you wish for a good transpicture. correct me if im wrong, But the whole, "who is good enough trans to be showed and who isnt is pretty much what puts every non-binary or not "trans enough" people down.
people who get told there not "trans enough" there not "a good picture for the trans comunety" so on so.

For me it seams like you ignore that to be a part of the problem like before you wrotte:

"I don't see where the guys who exhibit stereotypically feminine behaviors are getting talked down to. If anything they're the more popular transguys online."
and then you just had a comment right above saying:

"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke."
--------

Quote from: Natkat on December 06, 2012, 11:03:12 AM
For me it seams like you ignore that to be a part of the problem like before you wrotte:

"I don't see where the guys who exhibit stereotypically feminine behaviors are getting talked down to. If anything they're the more popular transguys online."
and then you just had a comment right above saying:

"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke."

You need to recheck who said "less trans people make others think of all of us as a joke", because I'm not the one who said that.

I commented on Thomas Beatie's situation as it relates to all of us because he is in the public spotlight (since someone brought him into the conversation). I never said he was "less trans". There is no such thing as being "less trans", so that is just an asinine thing I would never say. However, there is such a thing as being in an extremely unusual situation. Does that make him less of a transman? No, but it makes him a bad representative of transmen as a whole. When one of us gets in the spotlight we are representing ourselves and everyone else in the minds of the public who view the media due to our limited visibility.

I'm not perturbed at all but in the future I'd appreciate not having my words twisted or other people's views placed on me.

No you didn't say it, it just seam you didnt saw it where ever said.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 11:19:12 AM
Does that make him less of a transman? No, but it makes him a bad representative of transmen as a whole.

So transmen who are pregnant are bad representives, and set transpeople in bad spotlights?

So its not okay to but transguys down because there maculine compared and viewed diffrently, but its okay to say to a pregnant trans guy his a bad representative simple for his way of living who is diffrent than what other do?
-
I hope you see my point,
putting people in boxes of "what view us all as good or bad" is what is the biggest cause of transphobia in the trans comunety.

try ask yourself. "how would I feel if someone called me a bad repesentative, a person who where less "right" or "normal" to be showed.

I know we live in a stupid sociaty, who are clumsy, but in the end its not worse than we can say. "people are diffrent, im not the same as this person, my choice are not the same." its not gonna be no matter who we put up as a view point someone will always be diffrent because thats how human is.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 11:19:12 AM
I commented on Thomas Beatie's situation as it relates to all of us because he is in the public spotlight (since someone brought him into the conversation).... No, but it makes him a bad representative of transmen as a whole.

I strongly disagree: Thomas Beatie is pushing boundaries that have never been publicly pushed before. I wish I'd had the courage to do what he did... but instead, I took the coward's way out and chose to live as a 'woman' for 21 years so that I could have my own biological children. I was too frightened of what the public might think of me if I'd transitioned before having them so I put up with horrendous dysphoria for decades because that seemed 'easier'. I think he's a great representative on many levels - including Civil Rights for trans people - and I'm proud to have him represent me.

I firmly believe that we should all be free to choose what to do with our reproductive rights regardless of our gender identity or presentation. There is no right or wrong way to be a transguy, and Thomas's choices are as valid as anyone else's.

With all due respect, in my opinion any suggestion that he shouldn't be entitled to publicly declare his basic human right to bear his own children is tantamount to telling Rosa Parks to just shut up and get to the back of the bus.

That's my opinion... take it or leave it.

Quote from: Natkat on December 06, 2012, 11:52:10 AM
So transmen who are pregnant are bad representives, and set transpeople in bad spotlights?

So its not okay to but transguys down because there maculine compared and viewed diffrently, but its okay to say to a pregnant trans guy his a bad representative simple for his way of living who is diffrent than what other do?

In the eyes of the public YES a pregnant transman is a bad representative for our community. As I stated before, trans people who do want to transition and assimilate into the cis gendered society aren't understood at this point in time. Throwing society a curve ball like Thomas Beatie is a recipe for disaster when it comes to society understanding and accepting transsexuals as a whole.

You can't say that transmen like Thomas further the cis world's understanding of us. I am not saying Thomas was wrong in his choices. It is his life and he can live it as he sees fit. The fact still remains that visibility of transmen is very limited. When cis people see a transman he is a representative of all of us in the public spotlight. If cis people can't understand a boring binary identified transman like myself (as an example) then how can we expect them to embrace someone who has an even more unusual story? We can't.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on December 06, 2012, 12:25:05 PM
I strongly disagree: Thomas Beatie is pushing boundaries that have never been publicly pushed before.

With all due respect, in my opinion any suggestion that he shouldn't be entitled to publicly declare his basic human right to bear his own children is tantamount to telling Rosa Parks to just shut up and get to the back of the bus.

Yes, Thomas pushed boundaries but the question isn't if he could...the question is if he should. What purpose did him publicly showing his top surgery scars and bulbous pregnant stomach serve? Did it further our cause? Did it increase understanding? Or did he make money doing appearances as a pregnant man that society (for the most part) deemed a freak show?

Be honest about it. Think of how society thought of this. Me? I couldn't care less what he does but he should have done it in private. It is called "milk before meat". As the public is akin to a newborn when it comes to acceptance of transsexual people. As a baby would we shock it's system by introducing meat that it can't digest? No, we would start that baby out on something that will nourish it, boost it's immunity, and prepare it for solid meals. Same with the public. It is easier for them to get to know and accept trans people who are for the most part "vanilla". Once acceptance has been achieved for the core base then you branch out and bring more unusual topics to the table.

This is just common sense folks. It's not what you think is right..or "loud and proud". This is about acceptance and understanding but most importantly in how to achieve it.

I think any sort of challenge to the prescribed gender norms is a good thing, because it challenges people's perceptions and makes them consider things outside of the box.

A pregnant transguy may confuse some people who don't know anything about trans issues, and they may go to conclusions that all trans people are just a bunch of confused people who shouldn't be allowed to transition, but I think as a whole, most people--at least the younger generations who are more likely to change their views--would be challenged in a positive way. And, any person with some grain of intelligence should be able to recognize that Thomas is the only transguy who's been publicized for this and therefore recognize that it probably isn't that common of a thing within the transguy community.

Now, the way he went about it I may not agree with (for the sake of full disclosure--I haven't seen too much of him besides his first documentary), I didn't particularly like the whole reality show feel of it. I think the way it was portrayed on the show was more like a "freak show" (which is why I don't watch shows like Little People Big World and the one with the conjoined twins) instead of a helpful educational program designed to enlighten viewers.

Generally these discussions make me angry because it's a bunch of people worrying about how feminine transmen make all transmen look bad. I don't see that happening here as much, but I've said it 1,000 times. No one is making YOU look bad or threatening how you are seen. Most people I know are clueless about trans* issues as a whole and don't know transmen even exist. I get sick of feminine transmen and GQ people getting thrown under the bus for being who they are. Now, I know that that is not what this thread is about and not what the OP was saying, but that seems to be the general attitude of some of the comments. For the record, I am masculine in many ways. No, I don't like sports and I don't work on cars or any of that BS stereotypical gender role crap, but I don't wear make-up or wear a corset and walk around in glittery heels. So, I know this kind-of stuff isn't directed at me, but it's saddening and sickening that people can be so insecure in their own identities that they feel the need to "call out" other people. Again, I know this is NOT what this thread is about, but I've seen this garbage all over tumblr and youtube.

I'm really starting to hate the online FTM community and I'm honestly not looking forward to going to any support groups because, believe it or not, the "more trans than thou" crap DOES exist which is why the trans enough movement was created. It was created to empower people who aren't a stereotypical male to feel good enough to transition and not feel like crap for being themselves. It is not however, to hate on people who are masculine. In fact, people who aren't get more crap because men are expected to be masculine. Especially transmen because of our history. I really don't see this backlash because form what I've seen masculinity in men is celebrated. Especially in the trans* community.

As far as feminism, it can be problematic in that it often excludes trans women, people of color and anyone who basically isn't a white cisgendered woman. But I do support the ideas behind it. I think we need to acknowledge that women are not treated equally in society in many ways and by supporting those ideas we support equality for everyone. But I do see the flaws within the feminist movement. I know this thread was not to argue about feminism.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 01:13:07 PM
Yes, Thomas pushed boundaries but the question isn't if he could...the question is if he should. What purpose did him publicly showing his top surgery scars and bulbous pregnant stomach serve? Did it further our cause? Did it increase understanding? Or did he make money doing appearances as a pregnant man that society (for the most part) deemed a freak show?

You know, I didn't even know who this was until I saw him mentioned on this very board awhile back. So as for "publicity" I don't think it was all that much. Sure you can still google him and find out but go ahead and go up to a "cis" person on the street and ask if they know who he is. Better yet, ask just if they know even the general story ... "did you see the one about a 'man' getting pregnant and having his own child?" I'd lay odds that they haven't. People know more who Chaz Bono is that the pregnant guy and that's only because Chaz's parents were/are famous. Celebrities garner a lot more attention than some one-off, no name guy who does one thing. Having trans people as characters on tv shows gets more attention. People have really short memories these days as well. Something may be out and hot for 5 minutes and then it's forgotten a week later.

So this fear that people like Thomas are making it bad for you is just that, a fear and not really reality. It's akin to saying something like a flaming gay guy makes all gay guys look bad (and gay is a lot more well-known to the general population than trans). It's also similar to the fear of having your T taken away because there might be an andro or not 100% male identified person who wants to take it.

What I personally fear more is the trans community itself because it can not unite 100% even on the most simple, basic thing (we're all trans).

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 01:13:07 PMIf cis people can't understand a boring binary identified transman like myself (as an example) then how can we expect them to embrace someone who has an even more unusual story? We can't.

See like... I agree with LearnedHand on this one. Clueless cis people DO understand normal boring binary trans-men, because they would see and experience them as cis-men, which is a thing they can grasp and understand. In general, people tend to feel more outrage towards trans people going to the feminine side of the spectrum. Im guessing that this is a direct result of it bring 'preferred' by our society to be male. As a passing binary trans guy, I feel like a huge brunt of societal backlash is avoided.

This is one of the reasons that Truscum, or whatever they call themselves bother me. They disregard other people in the gender spectrum, claiming they aren't trans, because they do not fit into the binary. The FTM community, especially on tumblr, is just horrible.

All in all, I dont think there is that much backlash to the ideal transman being as masculine as they want to be, its just this prevalent attitude in the community that some 'stereotypical' trans men dont want to actually associate themselves with other trans people, they want to be seen as cismale, 'but diagnosed with ->-bleeped-<-,', thereby throwing other trans people (people who dont fit into the binary) under the bus to create that distinction. It just creates a lot of tension.

I shouldn't even get into this truscum thing, its a whole bag of worms for another discussion, but I recently read a couple blogs and it seemed related.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 06, 2012, 01:49:01 PM
You know, I didn't even know who this was until I saw him mentioned on this very board awhile back. So as for "publicity" I don't think it was all that much.

Are you in the USA? Just curious because he was a big deal here for awhile. On Oprah and ended up being fodder for late night talk show hosts. I seen him just a few weeks ago on tv talking about having his third child and his divorce from his first wife. He is a prevalent voice of the community.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 06, 2012, 01:49:01 PM
People know more who Chaz Bono is that the pregnant guy and that's only because Chaz's parents were/are famous.

What I personally fear more is the trans community itself because it can not unite 100% even on the most simple, basic thing (we're all trans).

Chaz is an excellent spokesman for the trans community and he has handled everything publicly with a grace that not many would be able to. I won't lie that I have been slightly annoyed in the past that his chest scars were made public but the only photo I seen of them was taken by someone peeking over the fence of "Dancing with the Stars" to take it. Why do I find that annoying? I don't want it to be an identifier for transmen. Most of us do end up with double incision scars.

I've never said we aren't all trans. I've never said that I or any binary identifying transman is better than a feminine transman. This was not what this thread was intended to be but got twisted into something else.

This thread was supposed to be about masculine transmen and our increasingly diminishing visibility within the community. This thread was intended to show my opinion that the "Trans Enough" movement isn't necessary and divides more than anything else. That was all and I think on a few occasions there has been an attempt to bait me into saying something that would later be regretful and at least one attempt to put words in my mouth.

Again and for the last time. I don't see masculine as more deserving of anything. If any of you really knew me you'd see that I'm one of the most accepting individuals there is. Simply because I don't care what someone does as long as it doesn't effect me.

Im not saying that any of us, or you OP, are part of this ridiculous movement, I just got carried away talking about it haha.
Everyone here at Susan's come off as inclusive and down to earth.

I think that perhaps more masculine trans men aren't being represented because a lot of them sort of assimilate into society well, not for lack of them existing. Androgyny is just more obvious, I think a lot of men who are passing and masculine enough to blend in well just don't stay active in the community, and really, why should they? 

Quote from: AscendantDevon on December 06, 2012, 02:06:01 PM
See like... I agree with LearnedHand on this one. Clueless cis people DO understand normal boring binary trans-men, because they would see and experience them as cis-men, which is a thing they can grasp and understand.

This is one of the reasons that Truscum, or whatever they call themselves bother me. They disregard other people in the gender spectrum, claiming they aren't trans, because they do not fit into the binary. The FTM community, especially on tumblr, is just horrible.

Cis folks do not understand boring binary transmen. How do I know this? From personal experience. I once drove 31 hours in two days from Colorado back to North Carolina with nothing more than gas money in my pocket and a 30 gallon bag of clothes in the backseat. Why? Because a few cis men who had been my close friends for over a year had threatened to "take me out" once I was outed to them by my ex. Maybe that is why I am so passionate about the struggle for acceptance. I know what the consequences of hate and ignorance. I'm lucky that a third friend went behind their back and told me what was going on or I would have been a statistic.

I don't know much about "Truscum" but from what I have seen it's what I would call "->-bleeped-<- trolls". It looks like guys who want to stir the pot to amuse themselves. They're so far out of the loop that I don't take them seriously. Don't have to worry about them becoming a voice in the trans community either because they wouldn't dare stand up and out themselves as trans. I say just ignore them, let them do their thing, and they will fade into obscurity soon enough.

Quote from: AscendantDevon on December 06, 2012, 02:23:24 PM
I think a lot of men who are passing and masculine enough to blend in well just don't stay active in the community, and really, why should they?

That depends...I am basically stealth. I can count on one hand people who know about me (that aren't related to me of course). Why should I bother to get back into the community after living full time for 14 years? It's a personal decision but I think I have a responsibility to help out the community and that is what I plan to do. Kinda hard now with where I live but in a few years I am relocating to a city. I'm not sure if I want to go to College and be a gender therapist or what I'm going to end up doing but it will involve the community.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
Are you in the USA? Just curious because he was a big deal here for awhile. On Oprah and ended up being fodder for late night talk show hosts. I seen him just a few weeks ago on tv talking about having his third child and his divorce from his first wife. He is a prevalent voice of the community.

Yeah I'm in the US. Could be that I just don't give a sh*t about stuff like Oprah and tabloids and late night talk shows. I'm not the only one who is clueless about that sort of thing. And if he's a prevalent "voice of the community" I'd probably known even less about him since I'm pretty put off by the "community" as well.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
Chaz is an excellent spokesman for the trans community and he has handled everything publicly with a grace that not many would be able to. I won't lie that I have been slightly annoyed in the past that his chest scars were made public but the only photo I seen of them was taken by someone peeking over the fence of "Dancing with the Stars" to take it. Why do I find that annoying? I don't want it to be an identifier for transmen. Most of us do end up with double incision scars.

There's been a few times I've been standing in line at checkouts when Chaz has been on the tabloids and I've heard really awful comments from "cis" people who have no clue at all. Comments like, "That's just going against god and nature!", "She's destroyed her body and her life.", "That's just sick ... she's mentally ill.". Seriously, I've heard all that. So if you think that Chaz is being a good spokesperson, you don't know what a large segment of society is really thinking of him (they refused to even call him male a lot of times). The "community" may like him, but the larger world is seeing something different. This is all off track and really besides the point though. General society is not very accepting of trans-anything. They don't even like people who just push gender boundaries, let along modify their bodies. It's male or female, that's it. We've all got a long, long way to go on that front. The point is, why can't we just have some unity within the trans community? Someone else mentioned tumblr and I have to say, the "community" on tumblr is like a festering wound. It's horrible what people say to other people over there.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
I've never said we aren't all trans. I've never said that I or any binary identifying transman is better than a feminine transman. This was not what this thread was intended to be but got twisted into something else.

This thread was supposed to be about masculine transmen and our increasingly diminishing visibility within the community. This thread was intended to show my opinion that the "Trans Enough" movement isn't necessary and divides more than anything else. That was all and I think on a few occasions there has been an attempt to bait me into saying something that would later be regretful and at least one attempt to put words in my mouth.

Threads often take on a life of their own and people interpret info differently or put their spin on things. It happens. Some of the resulting discussions can be quite good though and as far as threads go, this ain't nothing compared to some of the one's I've been involved in where there seemed to be actual hate and discrimination going on, volatile emotions and topics, etc. (and they're subsequently locked).

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
Again and for the last time. I don't see masculine as more deserving of anything. If any of you really knew me you'd see that I'm one of the most accepting individuals there is. Simply because I don't care what someone does as long as it doesn't effect me.

You're accepting ... and you don't care what someone does but there's a qualifier, "as long as it doesn't effect me". Well, just about everything in life that someone does has the potential to effect other people. And I think where people are getting heated is that they're saying femme trans guys DO effect them. Non-binaries/genderqueers/andros DO effect them because they're trying so hard to just be male/masculine and they other people are off wearing tutus (I'm exaggerating ) and make up and just ruining/making a joke of trans. I'm not saying you're like this, Simon nor am I singling out anyone on this this thread or board. All I'm saying is there's an element of this in the larger "community". And it seems that people just can not set their differences, issues, fears, etc. aside and come to agreements on how all trans people can gain better equality in society and the larger world. People shouldn't have to be fearful of being "found out" if they're stealth, just like people shouldn't have to be fearful of being gay in society. No matter how one chooses to express themselves they should have basic rights and shouldn't have to fear for their safety, their reputation, etc. We, as a small group here, could agree on something like that, but how do we get the larger "community" with all its different factions on board with that. A lot of the responses here are theories on why people act how they do, or people's own experiences.

Quote from: AscendantDevon on December 06, 2012, 02:06:01 PM
All in all, I dont think there is that much backlash to the ideal transman being as masculine as they want to be, its just this prevalent attitude in the community that some 'stereotypical' trans men don't want to actually associate themselves with other trans people, they want to be seen as cismale, 'but diagnosed with ->-bleeped-<-,', thereby throwing other trans people (people who dont fit into the binary) under the bus to create that distinction. It just creates a lot of tension.

I kind of agree with this (if you're referring to backlash in the "community" ... In larger society and the "cis" world it's another story). With topics like this, it all kind of boils down to other people's perceptions and the way other people want to identify themselves and consequent reactions to that. Unfortunately, a lot of people get thrown under the metaphorical bus for a lot of reasons. I think that's one of those human nature things. If you've got issues/fears/etc. the natural reaction is to lash out or to take the microscope off of you and put it on someone else.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:33:45 PM
Cis folks do not understand boring binary transmen. How do I know this? From personal experience. I once drove 31 hours in two days from Colorado back to North Carolina with nothing more than gas money in my pocket and a 30 gallon bag of clothes in the backseat. Why? Because a few cis men who had been my close friends for over a year had threatened to "take me out" once I was outed to them by my ex. Maybe that is why I am so passionate about the struggle for acceptance. I know what the consequences of hate and ignorance. I'm lucky that a third friend went behind their back and told me what was going on or I would have been a statistic.

You posted this as I was going on with my last response. But basically you DO know what those segments of society think about trans people (like the people I hear talking in the supermarket line when seeing Chaz on a tabloid). That's what I mean when I say we've got a long way to go. People who you think are your good friends even turn out to be the type who would literally kill someone who is different. That's a serious problem. And that has everything to do with human rights – not even gender stuff, just plain human rights.

Not everyone can become a spokesperson and fight for rights like that, so I applaud you for wanting to.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 06, 2012, 02:53:17 PM
you DO know what those segments of society think about trans people (like the people I hear talking in the supermarket line when seeing Chaz on a tabloid). That's what I mean when I say we've got a long way to go.

Not everyone can become a spokesperson and fight for rights like that, so I applaud you for wanting to.

Yes, we have a very long way to go and that is why I stand beside my "milk before meat" stance when it comes to public visibility of transsexual people. Get the cis world use to those of us who are more akin to them before throwing someone in who is completely out in left field to most people.

Oh, I don't want to be a spokesman. I would like to be someone who can assist others in becoming the person they want to be and that is why I'm considering going back to College to be a gender therapist. I will remain stealth for the most part. I'm not ashamed of being trans and if asked in a respectful way I never deny it. I just don't see the need to let it be known for no reason.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 01:13:07 PM
In the eyes of the public YES a pregnant transman is a bad representative for our community. As I stated before, trans people who do want to transition and assimilate into the cis gendered society aren't understood at this point in time. Throwing society a curve ball like Thomas Beatie is a recipe for disaster when it comes to society understanding and accepting transsexuals as a whole.

I disagree. Thomas Beatie is showing people that biological sex and gender identity are not necessarily interlinked and not to be confused for one another, and dismantling the cissexist narrative "born in the wrong body", which in the long run is beneficial to all trans people. Because when cis people hear that old "I was born in the wrong body" trope, it doesn't make them understand and respect trans people as equal - it makes them think "there's something wrong with being trans, look they're saying it themselves", which fosters transphobia as being seen as wrong is being seen as "lesser" - lesser citizens, lesser worthy of respect and civil rights and safety, lesser human. Furthermore it validates and reinforces the pathologization of ->-bleeped-<-, with all the gatekeeping and abuse at the hands of medical and/or legal authorities we're all familiar with.

And honestly, if the price to pay for furthering understanding and acceptance of ->-bleeped-<- is stepping on a few toes, I think it's well worth it. It's sort of like outing closeted gay homophobes - they are tragicly miserable and can't be blamed for being that way, and outing them often ruin their carreers and personal lives, but ultimately putting the needs of the community above those of select individuals is the right thing to do.

Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PMChaz is an excellent spokesman for the trans community and he has handled everything publicly with a grace that not many would be able to.

Chaz Bono, on the other hand, is a misogynistic jerk who basks in his newfound male privilege and a terrible spokeperson for the community. If anything he's just reinforcing the "theory" touted by some pseudo-feminists that transmen are just really self-hating lesbians full of internalized sexism.