The title came from just stating that these are some of the names that I knew from the list on title of the thread on the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyne. It started out by picking names of people that I knew and some I had never thought about having any connection. I think its the only such 2 lists of any kind of names on the whole interenet, that I know of. One can find lists of possible CDs, TVs, TSs, lists, but as far as I know, no one has even attempted to think about the people that my have androgyne or androgynous connections (gender, communications, anatomy/physiology, and/or expressions).

I then added some suggestions by others.

Solved that concern of the name by adding (and androgynous persons) to the subject.

And also added a disclaimer.

QuoteDisclaimer:
I will let you judge for yourself which of these is androgynous looking, and which might have psychological androgyne gender identity. Or who might not even belong on this list. Or who else might belong on this list.

Which should help state that the post isnt trying to mislead or present itself as anything factual, rather just a list of people to think about, or not think about.

QuoteMost of the people on the list above are of androgynous appearance. A great number are simply entertainers. Several are gay or lesbian. Some are transgender. Many, if not most, are Cisgender. Very few have the psychological gender identity of Androgyne.

I added this list back in Aug 16 of 2006, back when the forum was 2 pages deep and there were like only 3 to 6 active androgyne members. I can remember it was in the first series of posts  and initial really didnt have that much of a response. Then again there are more people in the forum now, so its good that its getting looked at again and even going through some critic.

I will continue to add name suggestions. I added the newest suggestions.

The NEW was also changed to purple and I updated so that they are on the newest names.

Quote from: Emerald on May 27, 2007, 02:22:44 AM

I believe it is important to understand that outward androgyny is not equivalent to having an internal Androgyne gender identity. The title of this thread "Some famous androgynes" is erroneous and misleading. To expand it to include "at least some androgynous connection, where they break some sort of gender norm in some way thats somewhat nonpolar gender, weither their gender is real or unknown, or possibly a front" would be a mighty long and bazaar list indeed! Just the number of glam rockers would be extensive!

But we can, and perhaps should, realize the list above can be divided into two groups - People who look androgynous, & People who have (or might have had) an Androgyne gender identity.

I think George Sand and Calamity Jane would qualify as Androgynes.
Annie Lennox is beautifully and naturally androgynous, but not an Androgyne.
Michael Jackson could be thought androgynous, but due only to his multiple surgeries.
I don't believe Hermann Göring or Ayn Rand belong on either list.
And Eddie Izzard, there's an interesting soul! Being a Crossdresser does not make him androgynous or an Androgyne. He is, in his own words, an "executive ->-bleeped-<-" who simply enjoys wearing make-up and clothing which is traditionally perceived in the West as female-only.

-Emerald

    I like Emerald's idea of two lists. One of definite androgynes and one of possible, or suspected, androgynes.   The reason for me to like this is that it will make an excellent learning tool for people like myself who lack the know how to know. By having two separate lists, we can figure out the proper reasoning behind acknowledging a true androgyne.

One of you can do that, I am not going to spend time thinking or organizing such list. So go ahead. Although I listed the names, They were not my original list, and I have no criteria why the names are on there, besides the ones suggested, I added.

One suggestion:
Instead of true and false, it would be better to be based on how much evidence. Like a great deal of evidence, a moderate amount of evidence, little evidence, only one piece of evidence, and no evidence. That prevents one from judging gender, versus judging how much evidence.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on May 28, 2007, 02:25:14 AM
One of you can do that, I am not going to spend time thinking or organizing such list. So go ahead. Although I listed the names, They were not my original list, and I have no criteria why the names are on there, besides the ones suggested, I added.

One suggestion:
Instead of true and false, it would be better to be based on how much evidence. Like a great deal of evidence, a moderate amount of evidence, little evidence, only one piece of evidence, and no evidence. That prevents one from judging gender, versus judging how much evidence.

Would you like fries with that?   

I've often wondered about George Sand, and also hir partner, Frederic Chopin, who was somewhat feminine.

zythyra

Yeah. I am not a Sand scholar, but I believe that George and Frederic were more like two gay guys in love than like a man and a woman in love.

I think it's safe to say Chopin was quite feminine, but it can be hard to say about historical figures much older than he, cause some behavior that might be queer in today's context wasn't always so. George Washington wearing makeup and hugging, kissing, and holding hands with other men wasn't being effeminate or gay. A bunch of eighteenth century sailors sitting on the forecastle tenderly washing and combing one another's long hair weren't indulging in transgendered behavior. It's interesting how certain styles and behaviors have become gendered or changed gender over time.

It makes me wonder why Freddie Mercury is on the list.  He may have worn more feminine looking clothes, but the man wore a mustache.  Eh, maybe I'm being too picky but when I think of androgynous I think of well, someone who could look like they sit smack dab in the middle of the gender spectrum.

Quote from: Mattie on May 28, 2007, 10:11:05 PM
It makes me wonder why Freddie Mercury is on the list. 

I agree Mattie, Freddie Mercury was not androgynous in any way.

Quote from: Mattie on May 28, 2007, 10:11:05 PM
...when I think of androgynous I think of well, someone who could look like they sit smack dab in the middle of the gender spectrum.

Very much agreed! Androgynous-looking people have the pleasing appearance of being of either sex.

Androgyny, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

-Emerald 

Now that's just plain silly. Of course Freddie was androgynous in some way. More than one. He wore feminine clothes and make up at times and had a tendancy to swan about. For a while he had a poofy hair-do, and I'm afraid I remember this look a heck of a lot more than I remember the mustache. He had amazing range and could sing like a man or like a woman and chose to sing both ways. As a body of work the music of Queen strikes me as distinctly bi-gendered, exhibiting unmistakably masculine traits in some songs and unmistakably feminine ones in others.

Quote from: Doc on May 29, 2007, 07:29:51 PM
Now that's just plain silly. Of course Freddie was androgynous in some way. More than one. He wore feminine clothes and make up at times and had a tendancy to swan about. For a while he had a poofy hair-do, and I'm afraid I remember this look a heck of a lot more than I remember the mustache. He had amazing range and could sing like a man or like a woman and chose to sing both ways. As a body of work the music of Queen strikes me as distinctly bi-gendered, exhibiting unmistakably masculine traits in some songs and unmistakably feminine ones in others.

An androgynous-looking presentation can be quite similar to a stereotypical gay (or bisexual) presentation. Both are form of self-expression and and to a degree, advertising.

For an entertainer or performer, a gender-bending presentation is frequently part of the show. Many rock stars adopt an androgynous look to promote themselves in the public eye. To my mind, Queen, and their lead singer Freddie Mercury, manifested a camp presentation - not an androgynous one. Perhaps there is subtle difference or no difference to most people?

A man wearing womens clothing is not androgynous-looking, it's crossdressing. In contrast, the wearing of what is a combination of both mens and womens clothing, or unisex clothing, IS androgynous. To put it another way, a man who looks like a woman is not androgynous, but man who looks as if he could simultaneously 'pass' as male and female (or possibly neither) is androgynous.

Freddie Mercury ALWAYS looked like a man to me. More precisely: a gay/bi man, Village People style. To my perception he did not appear female, nor a combination of man/woman, he was always clearly masculine, campy but masculine.

A man wearing both a beard and a dress is not androgynous, it would be properly described as crossdressing or...well... The following link may be of assistance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender->-bleeped-<-
Annie Lennox appears on this page's list because of her intentional periodic female-to-male crossgender presentation. She is also naturally androgynous because of her simultaneously boyish/girlish face. But the two are separate issues.

Androgyny is the middle ground of male/female appearance, a blend that could be either (or neither). The combination and presentation of 'definitely male' and 'definitely female' (beard+dress, breasts+penis, or a pinup girl in military combat attire) are not examples of androgyny, not androgynous. They are examples of male/female contrast. Bi-gender, in the context of sounding like a man while singing one song and sounding like a woman in another song, is not androgynous. On the other hand, a singing voice that simultaneity sounds male and female, or something so in between as to be neither, is androgynous.
Excellent info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

-Emerald 

QuoteAndrogyny is the middle ground of male/female appearance, a blend that could be either (or neither). The combination and presentation of 'definitely male' and 'definitely female' (beard+dress, breasts+penis, or a pinup girl in military combat attire) are not examples of androgyny, not androgynous. They are examples of male/female contrast.

True, the pin-up girl in combat dress isn't expressing androgyny. She is giving the message, "I am so strongly feminine that I can wear stong masculine cues and still appear more femme than girls in lace." One might say that the greatest camp icon, Tim Curry as Dr. Frankenfurter, has the apposite (there is no opposite gender) presentation -- so masculine that he looks unmistakably manly in women's undergarments. This presentation may be the goal of most 'camp' presentations.

As it happens, I think that Freddie Mercury, no matter that he always looked quite male, was edging off 'camp' and into an attempt at an androgynous expression. He seemed to be using feminine cues to express femininity, not to contrast his masculinity and emphasize it. And he did sometimes sing in a 'both or neither' sort of way, as well as the distinctly masculine and distinctly feminine voices.

When I think of Annie Lennox, this image comes to mind:



Here Annie's hair is neutral -- it's not a masculine short cut, it's just clipped short and actually serves to emphasize her feminine features. Her clothing is strongly masculine. Her makeup is strongly feminine. Her additude seems to express androgyny, but otherwise? This is a bi-gendered presentation. If she'd struck a feminine pose and affected a coquettish expression for the photo, it would result in a presentation similar to that of the pin-up girl in combat fatigues.

I am not sure why a combonation of lipstick and a suit-and-tie should be read as 'androgyny' while a combonation of beard and dress should not. It seems to me that a male in a dress who wears a mustache or allows his stubble to show might be expressing androgyny Lennox-style, or he might be expressing camp masculinity, or he might be expressing femininity without bothering to shave. In an encounter, a good photo or a video-recording one could tell, making accomodations for 'eye of the beholder' readings, but if that person was dead you'd never have a clue.

Likewise for somebody who has breasts and a penis, and wears clothing that displays both cleavage and 'basket'.

I appear androgynous, an effect I achieve by wearing masculine styles that de-emphasize the fact that I am tiny and delicate. I have no visible secondary sex characteristics unless I am naked. I am read as female based solely on bone-structure. Yet even people who have no interest in gender-studies will (sometimes with embarrassment and apology) describe me as 'disconnected from gender' and a 'not-woman.' When I was younger and my skin less weather-beaten, my masculine dress was frequently read as an emphasising contrast to my feminine features and I was often hit on by clueless visually-oriented but detail-blind heterosexual males who mistook my presentation for one similar to that of the pin-up girl in fatigues. It seems to me that male-bodied people who wish to present as androgynes have that problem (as demonstrated by this portion of the thread) but even more so.

Articles use the word "androgynous" for glam rock appearance of course not meaning androgyny or any kind of gender.

What do people think? Well here are several writers that I found just in a yahoo search of "Freddie Mercury Androgynous" some of the results in 1 through 10, of 1270 results.

Quote"They were so confident that it often came across as being extremely arrogant. There were these four guys who played up the androgynous look with lots of make-up and black nail varnish. A lot of people couldn't handle them. The 'look' in the rock scene was tattered denims and long hair, then here comes Queen dressed in Zandra Rhodes satin threads. It was unheard of."

http://www.brianmay.com/queen/wwry/OZ/freddielives.html

QuoteBy this time, Mercury had adopted an androgynous glam style, replete with velvet and fur clothing, makeup, and black nail polish. A natural showman, he had already developed a flamboyant stage presence. But his campy demeanor and flashy outfits did not seem to raise many eyebrows. "Ambiguous sexuality was par for the course then," recalled one former band-mate.

http://www.gmax.co.za/think/history/2005/050905-freddymercury.html

QuoteAsk almost anyone about Queen's iconic lead singer Freddie Mercury, and you'll get the same response: The man was a god. His piercing vocals, theatrical sensibility and black-and-white checkered unitard are the stuff of legend. Even now, 15 years after his death, no artist has been able to fill Mercury's signature onesie — hypothetically or otherwise — though many have tried.

With a similarly androgynous personality and an even more similar vocal range, U.K. phenom Mika comes close, but also achieves his own personality while adding his name to this seemingly unending list of Freddie admirers.

http://badgerherald.com/artsetc/2007/02/20/pop_phenom_channels_.php

QuoteNot surprisingly Freddie Mercury looked the most photogenic (not to slight the others) with his luxurious hair, makeup, tight costumes, and black-polished nails. Rock captures Mercury as an androgynous sex symbol of this period along with Bowie's Ziggy. Look at Mercury caressing his mike in those action scenes (he was born to be a star)---and Rock puts his stamp on those moments perfectly.

http://www.newbeats.com/killerqueen.html

I just heard of this person:  Antony Hegarty of Antony and the Johnsons

   This is a quote from wikipedia.org

QuoteTheir early live shows were often opened by Dr. Julia (Yasuda), an intersex person, who performed the welcome in Morse code.

One theme explored in the band's music is aspects of transgender life. This is expressed in songs such as "For Today I Am A Boy", in which a young boy dreams of growing up to be a woman.

   I've been really busy and unfocused, but I still have the researched version of the list on my mind.  Someday.

I'd like to submit the oh-so lovely Hyde (J-Rock).  He's one of my idols for androgynous appearance because he does it and doesn't look campy or over the top.



I stole his haircut. 

I constantly show his picture to lesbians I know just to watch them question their sexuality. It works!  I could show pics of me with his hair, but that would be vain.

     Let's see those pictures, Tay.  Don't make us post drawings of what we imagine you look like with that haircut.


   I wish I looked like that guy.  And had a softer voice than what I do now.

and



Hopefully you can see the similarities in those photos--I need to take one in that pose that he's in in that pic above so you can see, but my hair is as close to identical as I can make it without having his actual stylist.

Quote from: Tay on June 26, 2007, 04:01:00 PM
Hopefully you can see the similarities in those photos--I need to take one in that pose that he's in in that pic above so you can see, but my hair is as close to identical as I can make it without having his actual stylist.

   Hi Tay,

   Those are really nice pictures. I know you're self conscious about looking overtly female, but to me, you look perfectly balanced. If I saw you in real life, I don't think I would know which gender to think of you as.  In my opinion, you are on target for some of your goals.

   The hair works for you.


Peace,

Rebecca

I want to aim for the Robert Smith or the guy from AFI's look but my job won;t allow that.

Does anybody think actress Leah Remeni is an adrogyne I mean she acts more masculine than most guys I have known from throughout my life and also she's female externally.

I think NASCAR driver Jeff Gordon is definately an androgyne as far as his personality goes. I mean Dale Earnhardt Sr. thought Jeff Gordon was gay but I think Earnhardt Sr. mistook Gordon's androgny for him being gay.

What about Daniela Sea?  (Max on the L Word.)  She definitely looks androgynous, and from what I've read online she doesn't fit clearly into either the female or male gender.

pete burns isnt androgynous, hes a female looking gay man...