Quote from: The Middle Way on May 29, 2007, 08:04:06 PM
My question is this:

Once there is this quality, 'grace', and one is forgiven, is it considered (you know, theologically) that the person is hence operating with a clean slate, more or less?

Say you're A. Hitler, and the deeds are done, you know how that went down, but nonetheless, the Pope has the secret word for tonight, and you're feeling it; Everything's cool, now, between you and your 'creator', your 'universe'...?

I have spoken at some length with 'one or more' persons of your faith, and what I tend to get back by way of an answer is 'No, there is Judgment, in such cases', or some sound like that.

(the devil in the details which I am pointing to is 'whither karma*'?)

Any thoughts?

tmw

(*: you can just use 'natural law', or 'actions begetting like actions', if you prefer, to sub for this term)

---

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 28, 2007, 12:56:12 PM
I think that from purely a doctrine perspective, you receive the grace of God by accepting him.  It is freely offered, all you need do is take it in.  And you can't "take it in" by mouthing the words. For God would know your soul.

Ok this does figure into it, then: For God would know your soul. Does this, by grace, get to be some kind of a new soul - magic wand time, now, let's be honest - or, & this is really my thrust: is there going to be work involved.

See, it is difficult for me to get the magic bullet concept; each one of us has invested in a life, and there are pluses and minuses, more subtle than ary scorecard, and this *poof* factor - "hey, now I'm golden, grace was just the ticket!"  - seems somewhat childish to me.

As repulsive to perhaps most this will sound, if you truly are sorry for what you have done [and not just because you happened to get caught] and you truly are determined to repent of the act committed and wish not to repeat it and you have met His conditions for initial entry into His Kingdom, He will indeed forgive you and the sin will charged to you in the Judgment to come,


"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

1 John 2

"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
 
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."



I John 1:5-10; 1 John 2:1-6.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 29, 2007, 09:21:47 PM
Christ's actual suffering for our sins preceded his death.

Don't be too surprised if it is on going, albeit the context is different.

Two other thoughts, you guys so do not give yourselves any credit. What makes you think someone else thinks you should 'suffer for your sins'? Do you think you are so unrighteous?

^*shrug* Consider that you are blind to so much right now.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 28, 2007, 12:56:12 PM
I think that from purely a doctrine perspective, you receive the grace of God by accepting him.  It is freely offered, all you need do is take it in.  And you can't "take it in" by mouthing the words. For God would know your soul.

I've had a hard time dealing with the concept of "sin". I believe that the pure in heart need not worry about "sin", for this person does not deliberately commit these acts.  If so, they are not intentional.  God has no need to forgive, for the person will self rectify and resolve his/her problems.  This truly is grace. It is a natural product of love and charity. 

Cindi

No.

That equation is incomplete and there are more elements to it, than mere acceptance and assent.

This discussion is necessarily contingent upon what standard is being employed for comparative analysis and authority.

And it surely is not you nor I, beloved sister:


"Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."

John 17:17

Hey, I don't necessarily believe what I preach!   But this was my interpretation way back when in another life when I was caught up in the study of the doctrines. Mind you, I do not take light what others may believe.  Certainly there are many interpretations of the good book.  I have heard far too many interpretations to take any of it too seriously one way or another.  I'm not so sure that minor differences in how we understand it are that important if we are true believers.  After all, if God wanted us to all believe the same thing, don'tchya think he would have made it a teency weency bit more clear?

Peace be unto you.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 30, 2007, 12:02:17 AMAfter all, if God wanted us to all believe the same thing, don'tchya think he would have made it a teency weency bit more clear?

^{*chortles quietly*} Find your own truth my dear. Enlightenment can not be taught.

Either that or it isn't; I do know that you won't be told, no more so than I. _{(Heh, not that that means anything to you.)} I am not sure if there are 'road markers' along your path, but I do know there are in mine. ^*grin* Trust yourself.

^*shrug*

Something discovered is of more value than something taught.

Hey Kimberly,

I've found my own way to be sure.  And no, I do not "feel guilty for my sins".  That sin thing is hard for me to grasp... sort of like the native American getting the idea of property ownership.  I'll never latch back on to it.  It is something that I cast aside as a matter of survival once and I'm glad that it has buried in the dust.

I like your thought of discovering something for yourself.  This is the way that I see it:

Being taught < reading and learning it < experiencing first hand < teaching to others

I've found that when I teach, I really have to give the topic of consideration some real introspection.

In any case, the doctrinal aspects of religion are mostly ignored by most people. They aren't entirely sure what the dogma is that they follow.  And I really think that is just fine.

Cindi

Ah, I don't know. Willful ignorance is never a good thing. But in the same vein I do not think blindly following the leader is any better. Look at the leader to find the path yes, but walk it yourself. In the context of this thread, leader could be pastor.


But this goes back to the experience to learn idea I suppose. You are right though by the way, teaching is a wonderful way to really know a subject. But, I do not think enlightenment can be taught. ^*shrug* I suppose the .. state is too far removed from anything the majority of people understand to be able to grasp it sufficiently. It's not that they can't, just that they don't see the path. (and to be fair I do not speak of a religious path to 'God'; albeit the goal is similar. But I think the majority of ideas of that being are very... confused. Religion in general has not helped matters any, in my opinion.)

But even so, as long as we all live nice, happy, productive lives everything is a-ok right?
^*grin*
The keyword is actually missing from that. As long as we LEARN everything is a-ok... Or at least something similar to an a-ok

In the context of this place one could look at transsexualism (etc) and see quite a bit of learning going on...

But I digress, what is, is not quite as relevant to religion as religion would like; I feel.


An please keep in mind I could be all wrong; This human context is confusing, lol.
But as long as we learn it is all right.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 30, 2007, 01:13:07 AM
I've found that when I teach, I really have to give the topic of consideration some real introspection.

I've found that Cindi is quite good at explaining doctrines, even the ones she does not agree with.  And because she can explain them does not necessarily mean that she believes them.

I've tried, for the most part, to stay out of this.  This discussion has gone outside the bounds of the question asked.  Good discussion, just not responsive to the issue at hand.  But the original question:
1.  assumes that there is such a thing as sin
2.  assumes that those who ask are forgiven (grace)

So within those parameters, scripture is very clear that the answer is NO.  In fact, it is those who have experienced the grace of God who have a larger responsibility to live lives that are different, and constantly grow in faith and good works.  This is called "sanctification."  There is no license to sin, ever.  Not before grace and certainly not after.

Peace!
Kristi

This whole subject is tied up with lots of other pieces.  One of them is "forgiveness."  Specifically, how do you forgive someone who has harmed you deeply?  In some ways forgiving is more important than being forgiven.  If you do not forgive, resentment festers inside you, maybe for years.  Does the person who hurt you even care?  "You forgive me?  Gee, I didn't know you thought I needed to be forgiven."  That's how alot of Christians deal with grace, as a pro forma ritual that has little personal significance.  "Ya, ya, god, I sinned.  Thanks for the grace."

This whole grace transaction is the main reason I have been paying attention to what happened in South Africa whan Apartheid ended.  They formed a body called The Truth and Reconciliation Board.  It's function was to facilitate both sides in the conflict telling the other that they accept responsibility for the harm they had caused, and to be reconciled to the others.  When someone can say to you, "I hurt you badly," then it becomes possible to say, "I forgive you."

In the church there is a thing called Confession and Absolution.  It is intended as a way to say, "I have done hurtful things, and I am sorry," and to hear the words, "You are forgiven."  It is supposed to be in this context that grace happens.  But grace doesn't just happen.  Christianity says that grace cost god dearly, and if we are to honor that cost, we must work at it too.

Quote from: rhonda13000 on May 29, 2007, 09:53:09 PM

Quote from: The Middle Way on May 29, 2007, 08:04:06 PM


See, it is difficult for me to get the magic bullet concept; each one of us has invested in a life, and there are pluses and minuses, more subtle than ary scorecard, and this *poof* factor - "hey, now I'm golden, grace was just the ticket!"  - seems somewhat childish to me.

As repulsive to perhaps most this will sound, if you truly are sorry for what you have done [and not just because you happened to get caught] and you truly are determined to repent of the act committed and wish not to repeat it and you have met His conditions for initial entry into His Kingdom, He will indeed forgive you and the sin will charged to you in the Judgment to come,


"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

1 John 2

"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
 
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."



I John 1:5-10; 1 John 2:1-6.

This still does not answer the question, and does not appear to begin to. You're Hitler. (Or Bush, pick your villain.) You've done some damage on a planet that will span generations and continents to say the very least. (I am using an extreme example for argument's sake, but NB: this applies to Everyone.)

But now, You Get Right With God, through the special agent, and now, virtually in an instant, it appears to be clean slate time. The only exception you state to this is the one I always get: and the sin will charged to you in the Judgment to come, but then I see language like 'Jesus cleanses you of all sin' and 'perfected in God', and it just sounds like magical thinking.

See, in my view our time on a planet is inextricably tied in with all those we have contact with, have thus impacted, and is all probably tied in with all our ancestors, et cetera...
So, it's somewhat complex. My idea is that all 'souls' are part of the same origin and are all of a piece. In the same boat. Let me contrast a different 'religion's' idea at the risk of appearing a proselytist (I am not, I do not practice): Nirvana is the 'Heaven'. The highest aspiration is that of the Boddhisattva. One defers her liberation unto Nirvana until every other part of the puzzle, every being, has that capability. Can also get there from here.
This 'personal' salvation, well it seems so glib, do you know what I mean?

The other real problem I have with this, is that the whole idea appears to lead to a sense of No Responsibility, that as the topic title suggests, gives license.

I can feel grace. I get, more or less, what you guys speak of in that word. I am not getting that 'this Bud's for You' aspect of it, however. Is there the same quality of grace for Mother Theresa as for Adolph H.? How does that work, exactly?

Hey, I've seen quasi-miraculous stuff happen, even in me, and, guess what? There was work involved, it may have been subtle, but work was making stuff happen, all over the place. This other business seems childish, to me. That impression is only reinforced by a phrase like: "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin."

I get the comfort factor, I get the idea of forgiveness, I just cannot imagine this working. Independent Mysterious Redemption, no one has to do any work but just there for the asking.
Maybe it's a Religious Experience kind of deal and you can't explain it. (I am skeptical of that, but that's another topic.)

tmw

TMW,

In the faith that I was reared, there were a couple of things for which "grace" or the atonement would not cover you.  Murder is in there.  "Sons of perdition" don't receive forgiveness.  That title is earned.

Cindi

How can you 'earn' something by doing something you can't choose not to do -- or at least not-doing has larger personal consequences than doing?

Back to the concept of grace.  I believe there are (at least) two definitions of grace.

One is that God loves you so much that he just gives you grace -- it's free for the taking.  You don't have to 'earn' it or 'work for' it -- you just accept God and you are filled with God's grace.  You can choose not to take it, though, and God isn't upset with you.  It's a personal thing between you and God.  There's an endless supply -- take as much (or as little) as you need.  You can even lose it, for a while.  God understands.  People go through these periods, and might even benefit from the experience in the long run.  There's more when you're ready.  God loves you as you are.

Another is that God bought this grace dearly.  It's your ticket to the eternal afterlife in heaven.  But you better be good, and you better be sorry when you do bad, because you've angered God for squandering it and getting your grace plussed back up will cost you.  And if you haven't yet made your deal with God for enough of a share of grace when Gabriel blows that trumpet and signals that the grace-acquisition period is over and now we're going to count up each and everybody's grace-points and really see who's going to heaven and who's not, then you should'a been gooder, you should'a been sooner making your grace-deal with God.  Also there's a concept of deserving-ness I see more heavily in this group.  That one deserve wealth, the one over there deserves poverty.  People who don't toe Gods (and our) line deserve no-grace.

It's interesting that one group sees grace as being unlimited, while another sees it as something scarce and valuable (and is coveted...)

And, Cindi -- The Pearl of Great -- what?  >

Karen

Karen wrote:

QuoteAnd, Cindi -- The Pearl of Great -- what?

The correct answer is "Price", but I prefer airheads myself.

Karen, I like your first description of grace. This is how I see it. I would prefer to have a god who loved me as opposed to one who held a carrot beyond reach in front of my face all my life.

Cindi

If it means anything the first description is closer to what I know of truth.

Actually I like the first definition better than the second.  But taken to its extreme it is a pretty good definition of what Dietrich Bonhoeffer termed "cheap grace."  In other words, it's free but it's not cheap.  It did cost Christ his life.

While the supply may indeed be endless, most of us need more than we realize, and receive more than we could ever imagine.  If we could earn it somehow, it would no longer be grace.  And receiving God's grace does not mean that we are now simply on trial in a new and stricter way.  It means that we have received.  Period.  I do not agree that we can lose it.  But I do believe that our awareness of it is sometimes greater than at other times.  Now I do believe, as I said earlier, that those who receive should want to live lives that are different.  But this does not happen due to fear of some kind of retribution.  That, again, would not be grace.  It happens because of our loving response to the God who loved us first.  Our hearts are changed, not by being afraid of God, but by experiencing love in its highest form.

Here is my favorite definite of grace:

God's
Reconciling
Action
Caressing
Everyone

Peace, all!
Kristi

"This still does not answer the question, and does not appear to begin to."

In fact, I did.

You simply prefer to designate yourself as a [or the] source of spiritual authority.

In other words, 'possible' [it's Actual, in reality] moral and spiritual guidance and directives, from any external  source, are excluded as irrelevant and unacceptable, in deference to your own intuitions, feelings and desires.

I did answer your query, but you are not interested in the answer.