Quote from: Carlita on December 28, 2012, 07:52:50 AM

I dream of a day when I can go shopping with a girlfriend, have lunch together and just be her girlfriend too ... I'd love to go to a Pilates class and have the other women treat me exactly the same way (good or bad) as they would any of the other women there ... I want to be able to join my village's all-female book club (or one like it in another town or village), go on a girls' holiday ... bump into another woman in the street or at the store and go off for a cup of coffee and a gossip together.

And all I ever wanted to know from this thread is: can my dreams ever possibly come true?

This is my life you described and I'm not 100% stealth. My whole reason for posting in this thread was to debunk this assumption some people have that to live this sort of life you -have to- relocate, dump your friends and family and start living a new life stealth to be accepted as you just described.

Quote from: TessaM on December 28, 2012, 11:46:59 AM
Ok she hasn't "fully" transitioned in her opinion but has she not transitioned? And your language in your reply to me earlier was rather condescending (as is this one) and implied that I had no idea about transitioning when I had first started taking hormones at 19. I replied to your post in an attempt to clear up what you may have assumed.

Im not the only one who felt that way about your earlier post either

Tessa, no offense, but you find anyone who disagrees with you as language that is condescending. I don't know you. I neither like you or dislike you. If I am condescending to you, you would def know it...trust me. You found Stephe's language as condescending too when you thought she called you a moron. You were mistaken with that as well. Just because I disagree with you does not mean i am being condescending.

Back on topic, in Jazzy's mind she has not fully transitioned. That's what I've been trying to tell you. She has informed me and a lot of other people she is nowhere near done in her transition...not even in her mind she feels fully and completely transitioned. Nowhere near close.

Saying you're a girl and taking some birth control may constitute "fully transitioned" to some but to others this is not fully transitioned. You cannot take your experience and interpretation of "fully transitioned" and apply it to other people. What works for you will not work for other people.

Which brings me to the issue of dating. Saying you're a girl, taking some hormones and then dating a guy and not telling him may result in some bad consequences because that guy you are keeping secrets from may not appreciate your definition of what a girl is and there are times when some guys react adversely to that...like the girls on the National Transgender Day of Remembrance Wall..the girls who were murdered because someone told their boyfriends they were dating a trans and the guy flipped out and kill his gf. To that guy, his philosophy of transition and what is a girl was horribly different than the transgender's view. Hence, why ..if you are serious about someone, you tell them and not hide it or lie about it.

Quote from: Stephe on December 28, 2012, 11:49:23 AM
This is my life you described and I'm not 100% stealth. My whole reason for posting in this thread was to debunk this assumption some people have that to live this sort of life you -have to- relocate, dump your friends and family and start living a new life stealth to be accepted as you just described.

Thanks - that's good to know!

Quote from: Annah on December 28, 2012, 11:55:01 AM
To that guy, his philosophy of transition and what is a girl was horribly different than the transgender's view. Hence, why ..if you are serious about someone, you tell them and not hide it or lie about it.

But Annah... if you transition you are no longer a transsexual! To acknowledge your past would apparently make you less of a woman according to some on this thread...

Quote from: Stephe on December 28, 2012, 11:28:06 AM.

And while your internal gender was that of a girl, did you appear a girl and did society address you as "her" etc though your childhood? Were you treated as a girl? People who had a childhood as a girl were.  Even just being aware of having a gender conflict is a different life experience than non-trans people have.

We all have different life experiences, even my sister and brother have had very different lives than me.  The thing that makes this condition we have different from all the other histories that can be had by women, and why some people think we need to disclose every detail of our pasts, however painful some of it may be for us to think of, is that people HATE us for having it.  That's why they think of this condition as being like leprosy.  Eewwww, don't touch it!   It better never trick me into touching it!

Do you get that?  Hate?  If y'all want to talk about things that are wrong, that's wrong.  I really don't care how anything I do makes a monster full of contempt feel.  I'm not going to let anybody's misplaced or misinformed hatred of me dictate how I handle my life and my relationships.  Please don't believe anybody that tells you having our history is contemptible.  It isn't.   We don't have to sew big A's on our shirts, we don't need to wear pink triangles on our sleeves. We don't have to tell anybody anything we don't want to.  We are women, period.

That being said I have no problem talking openly about my past with people who I feel will still see me as being 100% woman.  People I fear would see me as a man or something other than a woman if they knew, I will never tell.  I do not feel bad about it.  I feel it lets them see me for who I am.  To me, that is less dishonest than helping them see me as being something I'm not.  I also would not date such a person, because why would I date a monster?  Being a monster is very unattractive to me.

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 12:44:59 PM
This is kinda contradicting...

Hmm..

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 12:44:59 PM
If it isn't a big deal, there's no reason to tell anyone about it, right?
People knowing you are trans WILL change their opinion about you, I would not want to cause unnecessary confusion to whoever I am with (friends mainly). You can't just close your eyes for reality and think that nobody cares about it, because they do and will judge you differently.

Oh.

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 12:44:59 PM
But I just really don't get it... It's not ok that possibly step on somebodies boundaries (because of social stigma, really nothing else), but it's perfectly ok to constantly discriminate and imposing self-defeat on yourself?

Excuse me? Self-defeat? I didn't know being honest with somebody you may potentially love, and possibly saving your own life by doing so is self-defeating.

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 12:44:59 PM
It's not wrong to not be stealth. But judging people who are stealth as dishonest liars is wrong.

But calling those of us who are up front with something that generally concerns most people in a sexual relationship is self-defeating. And that's not judgemental at all, is it?

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 12:44:59 PM
But I just really don't get it... It's not ok that possibly step on somebodies boundaries (because of social stigma, really nothing else), but it's perfectly ok to constantly discriminate and imposing self-defeat on yourself? People should take care of themselves, if there's somebody that has an issue about something, it's their problem to ask/figure out if such an issue is present.

What I really don't get is how somebody can only think of themselves and their beliefs. At least I can respect a guys beliefs that, for example, maybe he is going to hell if he dates me (even though I completely don't agree with that). Oh! "People should take care of themselves, if there's somebody that has an issue about something, it's their problem to ask/figure out if such an issue is present." ... taking care of yourself can't happen when some psycho figures it out and kills you because you "turned him gay" and "now he's going to hell". But take care of yourself while you further the (incorrect) notion that we are dishonest gay people that want to trick other men into being gay.

But what I say is contradicting...

Anyways, I think you'll find as life goes on (and as your transition gets deeper),  you'll realize that being 100% stealth is impossible. Sure, you can get to 99% unclockable, but people will clock you, it might get back to who ever, and you'll have to move to another town. It's funny too, because when people clock you, you may not know. I bet you think you would know because evvvverybody treats us trannies differently, but in reality, they don't. I've surprised friends that thought others to be homophobes, and when word got to them they STILL treated me the same as they did the day before they knew.

But if 100% stealth makes you happy, go ahead. You'll find in the end you're just erasing every step you've taken along the way. Every "mistake" must be covered and not talked about - forgotten. You'll become an enigma that people will just find quirky. The more you hide, the more people will either question you, or just flat out avoid you. But good luck with that 100% normal cis-girl life that you've always wanted. It's totally different than being a very passable, very down to earth and easy to deal with transsexual. Because us transsexuals are just so horrible towards society that we must hide our past at all costs, less we be treated like freaks.

EDIT: Since sarcasm is very hard to detect over the internet, the last few sentences are sarcasm.

Quote from: TessaM on December 28, 2012, 11:51:22 AM
What are you talking about?

Did I EVER once say Jazz was an adult?
That she was living stealth?

NO NO NO NO NO

Honestly while I read your posts, I haven't read the pages and pages of gender theory/excuses O_O wrote. I don't know who brought up this "Well what about someone who transitioned at the age of 6" nonsense but it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion because that adult doesn't exist.

Quote from: Jen on December 28, 2012, 12:32:35 PM
The thing that makes this condition we have different from all the other histories that can be had by women, and why some people think we need to disclose every detail of our pasts, however painful some of it may be for us to think of, is that people HATE us for having it.

I rarely have experienced this and "every detail" isn't what anyone is talking about.

Quote from: Jen on December 28, 2012, 12:32:35 PM
We don't have to sew big A's on our shirts, we don't need to wear pink triangles on our sleeves. We don't have to tell anybody anything we don't want to.  We are women, period.

That being said I have no problem talking openly about my past with people who I feel will still see me as being 100% woman.  People I fear would see me as a man or something other than a woman if they knew, I will never tell.  I do not feel bad about it.  I feel it lets them see me for who I am.  To me, that is less dishonest than helping them see me as being something I'm not.  I also would not date such a person, because why would I date a monster?  Being a monster is very unattractive to me.

I agree 100% with this. I don't wear a sign on my back and 90% of people I interact with I have no reason to share details about myself anyway.

I just don't understand how someone could plan to spend the rest of their life with someone and think they can become intimately close to them in a loving relationship yet keep this from them because they fear this person would hate them if they knew.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 28, 2012, 01:50:38 PM
But good luck with that 100% normal cis-girl life that you've always wanted. It's totally different than being a very passable, very down to earth and easy to deal with transsexual. Because us transsexuals are just so horrible towards society that we must hide our past at all costs, less we be treated like freaks.

EDIT: Since sarcasm is very hard to detect over the internet, the last few sentences are sarcasm.

You're right, this is what some people believe.

And yes 20 years ago they might have been right. Maybe in some ultra conservative small town full of bigots, they might still be right. Why anyone would want to live somewhere like that is beyond me or want to date someone who "hates transsexuals" is also beyond me. The world is has changed and this whole "You have to be 100% stealth or you will be seen as a freak of nature by everyone" just isn't true anymore.

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 02:32:11 PM
It is self-defeating, you're making yourself as something less than you actually are. You feel a need to point out that you're not like a normal person, lowering your own value.

I seriously don't see how me pointing out something about myself that may concern somebody singles me out and lowers my value as a normal person. And really, you're belittling us because we actually see a point in telling somebody who is sexually involved with us, something about our sex?

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 02:32:11 PM
I'm sure there are lots of mentally instable guys who will think they're going to hell for lots of other reasons too... If they're that concerned about it, if they aren't actually making sure they don't make a mistake. Then it's their own fault.
You don't have to date a psycho... It can't be that hard to notice if a guy is a potential murderer or not. And it'd probably be a priority to figure out if he's homophobic, transphobic, racist or completely insecure, I'm pretty sure that will show.

I don't have to date a psycho. But there are plenty of people out there that hide their psychoness pretty well. And he doesn't have to be a potential murderer, he could just freak out when he finds out and he beat the crap out of you.

But that's not the point at all. You seem to think that, since I (or others) respect others wishes, that makes us less than. I might not agree with them but I'm damn sure not going to lead them into thinking I was born as a female when I wasn't for many reasons. For 1, I want a relationship that I can be worry-free about. For 2, I want him to trust me always, and if he finds out - well there goes that trust. For 3 I do respect peoples beliefs. For 4 I'd like to be able to share anything I want about my life without hoping I don't slip up and say something that might unmask me. For 5 love can be violent, and sometimes twisted people get wrapped up in love with good people. I'd rather not end up a statistic. For 6, I would love the world to drop the whole thought that we are doing this to trick men. Get caught doing it, and guess how you'll be seen. Guess how the next trans they come across will be seen.

I'd also like to say that months before I transitioned, I thought it'd be okay to hold the info when I'm post op. But then I transitioned and realized it can be kinda hard to cover up your past! Go ahead, transition and find out for yourself...

Kia Ora,

Re: Can we ever be "one of the girls"?

In all honesty 'Only time will tell !' Think about it !

Some think 'so' whilst others think 'not'...

On ones 'individual' journey of self acceptance and self discovery [which it would seem is onging]and the experience one picks up along the way....It would seem the only practical/sensible answer to this gender-identity-forecast conundrum is "Only time will tell !"

Metta Zenda

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 05:03:04 PM
I don't know, If you think you're wrong enough that you need to tell everyone about that issue, I think it's a bit self-defeating. There are so many other things a partner could have issues with...

Wrong? no. There's nothing wrong with who we are. Period. Honest because I don't have a problem with it and if he does... then oh well? That's more my line of thinking. And everybody? No. Like I said earlier, I'm stealth in pretty much every aspect of my life except close friends, family, and relationships. The only reason I'm open to being trans with close friends is because - well - Facebook. "Add me!" "Oh you're trans!" ... Wrong? I'd rather just not give a good gosh damn and let people know so I can go along with being myself and not wonder "Do they know? Should I keep my mouth shut about this situation because it might reveal me?" ... believe me, that can get pretty stressful.

On the flip side, IDK why you think it's so wrong that you feel you "don't need to tell anybody". Hell, you're so worried about anybody "thinking" of you like anything less than a girl that you're willing to cut off ties with anybody who does care about you. Why are you going to put yourself through all that headache, danger, etc? Just so people don't think about you differently? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. To me you're not disclosing something that, in a relationship, many men consider very important. That's something that many men will end a long term relationship over. Why would you put yourself in a position to go down that road only to have your heart broken over something that you convince yourself (and others) that it's no big deal? And the risks... Honey let me tell you something.  60% of us get assaulted because we are trans. One of us is murdered every 72 hours. You think these are mostly by random people that clock you, or by lovers that found out?

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 05:03:04 PM
Then I don't know... It's not the TSs fault, just him being not open/rational enough to realize he did enjoy it.

Maybe not, but I still understand that many men do not want to get romantically tied to a trans girl. But look... put yourself in that risk and find out for yourself. The biggest reason I'm against other trans women not disclosing, is because at this time, in our culture, we are STILL seen as the bad ones when we are outed in a relationship. Most of the world still sympathizes with those closed minded, irrational people. Every time something like this comes into the news, guess who looks bad? All of us. Unfairly so, but it's just reality.

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 05:03:04 PM
1. I don't think a relationship can ever be worry-free.
2. Well, I think if he would find out he would feel you couldn't trust him, not that he couldn't trust you (still not a good thing though)... Assuming he takes it well. If he doesn't it'd be over anyway...
3. You're already assuming them, if they never mentioned that they don't want to date an MtF... then you're not really disrespecting their believes.
4. Yeah...
5. That has nothing to do with trans though >.>
6. The world having one more paranoid guy isn't going to change anything.

1. Yeah well I don't need my mind cluttered with the worry that I don't pass in the morning, either.
2. Either way, trust is compromised.
3. Then just tell them and find out already.
5. Being trans and being found out amplifies the chances of you being a statistic with nut jobs, I'm pretty sure.
6. Well I guess we're just going to disagree then. Fighting misconception is something this community is still struggling with. You seem to think our community needs to be less known and understood. I do not agree.

Quote from: muuu on December 28, 2012, 05:03:04 PM
Still, even as stealth, it'll probably come out sooner or later to somebody who they are in a long term relationship. If he then suddenly feels like he has been cheated and been with a man, not a woman, even though he enjoyed the relationship. Then I don't know... It's not the TSs fault, just him being not open/rational enough to realize he did enjoy it.

In a loving relationship it won't be the "been with a man, not a woman, even though he enjoyed the relationship" that will be the problem. If you don't tell him, you -assume- he would have a problem with this + all the lies he was told along the way that will be the problem. And yes it is the TS's fault when he finds out he was lied to. How is this his fault?

It's no different than lets say some girl wants to date this guy and he is very religious. So she goes to church with him and when they discuss this she explains how she went to church as a child. She lies about being baptized because that would throw up red flags. Then several years after they are living together he finds out she never went to church as a child and when he asks, she admits she made it all up. That she doesn't even believe in God and just made that up too to keep him happy. He would have every right to be pissed that she lied about this and assumed he wouldn't be interested in her unless she had.

A loving relationship is based on honesty and trust, I have told my partner things I have never told anyone and he has back. It's this trust and sharing that creates intimacy. Without that, it's just a sex partner.

Trans Purpose and why some trans identified people won't ever allow you to just be one of the girls.

Protect your Dreams.

People who tell you that you cannot do something and then give you reasons why you cannot do it...

Those are their reasons for why they can't do what you want to do. 

Quote from: Stephe on December 28, 2012, 09:20:49 PM
In a loving relationship it won't be the "been with a man, not a woman, even though he enjoyed the relationship" that will be the problem. If you don't tell him, you -assume- he would have a problem with this + all the lies he was told along the way that will be the problem. And yes it is the TS's fault when he finds out he was lied to. How is this his fault?

[/b]

Stephe you are making a lot of assumptions.  Your first assumption is that the trans woman in question is not sharing that she transitioned because she believes her partner would have a problem with her being trans. First of all just because you identify as trans doesn't mean that other people identify as trans.  Trans is very obviously and important aspect about yourself, your assumption is that being trans is something other people experience in the same way that you experience it.  Some of us are women who transitioned and some of us are trans women.  Trans women tend to place much more emphasis on being trans.  Women who transition tend not to adopt or hold onto trans as an identity, they tend to identify as female.  My truth is that I have always been female.  Transition was a way for me to have a female life.  I don't have any reason to hold onto being trans so why would I use being trans as a way to limit myself, so I can be like you?

Your next assumption is that women who transition who do not consider being trans as part of their core identity are liars.  You assume that anyone who doesn't share some aspect of their past is a liar.  You also assume that in all relationships people must share details about their past.  I have found this to absolutely not be the case.  In my own experience sharing details about the past tends to be an attempt to connect when there isn't a good connection.  In the best relationships I have experienced a little mystery was always more interesting than mundane facts from the past.  I realize you consider being trans something that is very important, some of us consider it a mundane fact from the past.  That doesn't make us liars, it just means that our truths are different.  You choose to believe you are trans for life and that it is an important aspect of your self that absolutely must be shared with a partner.  No one is trying to deprive you of your truth so why are you attempting to force others to be like you and deny what is true for them?

You stated that it is the TSs fault when a man finds out he has been lied to.  This exposes your personal truth about yourself and your truth is that a TS is not a real woman and must confess to being something other than a Cis female or she deserves to be a victim.  You also absolve the man of any guilt by saying that not accepting the TS woman as female is the TSs fault, not his fault.  You side with people who view TS women as not actually being women.  You are welcome to believe as you choose but forcing others to adopt your moralistic reasoning and victim blaming don't belong on any "support" forum, at least not in my own opinion.

Quote from: Stephe on December 28, 2012, 09:20:49 PMIt's no different than lets say some girl wants to date this guy and he is very religious. So she goes to church with him and when they discuss this she explains how she went to church as a child. She lies about being baptized because that would throw up red flags. Then several years after they are living together he finds out she never went to church as a child and when he asks, she admits she made it all up. That she doesn't even believe in God and just made that up too to keep him happy. He would have every right to be pissed that she lied about this and assumed he wouldn't be interested in her unless she had.

I realize that meant something to you.  It didn't mean anything to me, it wasn't the same thing as being my true sex after transition, not by a long shot.  It only supports what you believe and your assumptions.  It serves to support your opinions but that doesn't make it right.

Quote from: Stephe on December 28, 2012, 09:20:49 PMA loving relationship is based on honesty and trust, I have told my partner things I have never told anyone and he has back. It's this trust and sharing that creates intimacy. Without that, it's just a sex partner.

Your model for a relationship works for you and that's great.  But forcing your model of a "loving relationship" on others who do not share your values or beliefs is not the right thing to do.  Telling your partner things you have never told anyone else may work for you, that does not mean it will work for everyone.  Not everyone wants to hear it.  Sharing details from your past may equal "intimacy" to you, for others sharing the present may seem more meaningful.  If I choose to define myself with the past then the present will be a continuation of the past.  We all carry forward what we value, what is meaningful and true.  Your truth is being trans after transition.  Not everyone shares your truth.  Just let others live their lives and let go of trying to control people.  Support people.  Share but don't tell people what is right or wrong.  I have tried to give other people on this website an alternative to your prescription because I feel that forcing others to be like you is oppression.  The more I attempt to allow others to make up their minds, the more others try to stop me.  Why is that?

The Matrix clip explains it for me.

Also a woman who transitioned can be loving and trustworthy, even if she doesn't share what for her is a mundane fact from her past (that she transitioned).  Transition very obviously means different things to different people.  Some trans people believe that trans women are men who want to live like women, therefore they should never fool a partner.  Apparently these trans people believe it's okay to lie some of the time, just not all the time.  I propose that not all women who transition are lying by just being women.  I realize that sounds morally wrong to someone who does not accept trans women like I do.

you can kinda merge those seven posts into one, 0_0. 

Muuu, it has utterly nothing to do with us being ashamed of who we are. I am very proud of who I am. It isn't every day that someone can say they have experienced both genders. So your explanation of us telling those we love as who we are is completely off base.

Alaina explained it correctly by stating this is more of an honesty issue. Has nothing to do with being ashamed of being a woman fully.

When you date someone and it becomes intimate, they will find out. The only way you can lie to someone you love and get away with it is by moving to another country, disowning your family and friend and any past you ever had.

That is not any healthy base of any good relationship. You cannot hide your past from someone you are in a relationship...it's next to impossible....unless you were born and raised in an orphanage and disowned every person in your past...and never have them go to any type of hospital with you for whatever reason.

The only way you can remotely get away with your logic is by being post op and having one night stands or dumping the guy whenever it gets serious. Many of us are not into those types of relationships.

And as I said before, I don't think half of you ever had a post transitioned relationship...because the way you all are talking there's no way your "ideals" will work in a practical situation....unless its for one night stands or hookups.

But whatever floats your boat.

Quote from: Annah on December 28, 2012, 10:42:36 PM
you can kinda merge those seven posts into one, 0_0. 

Muuu, it has utterly nothing to do with us being ashamed of who we are. I am very proud of who I am. It isn't every day that someone can say they have experienced both genders. So your explanation of us telling those we love as who we are is completely off base.

It is fantastic that you are proud of what you are.  What you fail to realize is that you get to decide what you are but you don't get to decide what anyone else is.  You have decided what women who transition are, I would prefer you speak for yourself and stop attempting to define everyone else.

Quote from: Annah on December 28, 2012, 10:42:36 PMAlaina explained it correctly by stating this is more of an honesty issue. Has nothing to do with being ashamed of being a woman fully.

It's an "honesty" issue based upon your personal "truth", what you consider to be the truth about Annah.  You are unable to appreciate that other people have their own truth but it doesn't stop there, you intend to prevent others from experiencing the truth they hold dear.  Why doesn't Annah focus on Annah or offer support instead of restriction?  It seems as though you intend to destroy our flesh so that our souls may be saved.  Please save the moralizing for the Religion section of the forum.

If you aren't ashamed of us being women, why is it your intention to place limitations upon us?

Quote from: Annah on December 28, 2012, 10:42:36 PMWhen you date someone and it becomes intimate, they will find out. The only way you can lie to someone you love and get away with it is by moving to another country, disowning your family and friend and any past you ever had.

You stated an assumption as a fact, shame on you Annah.  Also you assume that "finding out" will be a bad thing.  You continue to call people liars based upon assumptions, opinions and fear-mongering.  This isn't about us Annah, ask yourself why this issue is so important to you.

Quote from: Annah on December 28, 2012, 10:42:36 PMThat is not any healthy base of any good relationship. You cannot hide your past from someone you are in a relationship...it's next to impossible....unless you were born and raised in an orphanage and disowned every person in your past...and never have them go to any type of hospital with you for whatever reason.

Opinions, assumptions and fear-mongering stated as fact (again).  The past isn't what we are Annah.  Our being female is not a lie.  Your failure to accept us does not imply any failure on our part.

Quote from: Annah on December 28, 2012, 10:42:36 PMThe only way you can remotely get away with your logic is by being post op and having one night stands or dumping the guy whenever it gets serious. Many of us are not into those types of relationships.

Opinions, assumptions and fear-mongering stated as fact.  Feel free to share your experiences but please understand that your experiences and assumptions do not = absolutes or even truths.

Quote from: Annah on December 28, 2012, 10:42:36 PMAnd as I said before, I don't think half of you ever had a post transitioned relationship...because the way you all are talking there's no way your "ideals" will work in a practical situation....unless its for one night stands or hookups.

But whatever floats your boat.

Obviously what floats your boat is stating opinions and assumptions as facts, that and fear-mongering.

Why are you so concerned how other people live their lives?

I offer an alternative to what I feel is rampant oppression.

I haven't told anyone what is right or what is wrong, I let people decide for themselves.  Why do you have to inflict your own moralisms on us?  Am I in Church?  Is being a woman who transitioned the big lie that you say it is?  Is transition a sin unless you realize it is just pretend?

The thread made me think of this clip