Hi guys,

Right now, Caleb is in a bad place. He tried to take his first T shot on his own and became worried that he didn't do it properly. And his issues with passing is getting to him. I've asked my family and friends and they say he looks male. Yet he doesnt seem to see it. I think he is a handsome young man. he has a great smile, thick hair, beautiful dark eyes.  And he isn't starting from being a supermodel waif either. When I started my own transition I mentally prepared myself for all the issues that come with transforming your body from male to female. I worried that I wouldn't pass for a short while but then I realized that it didn't matter. It wasn't worth fretting and losing sleep over. Caleb can't seem to do the same and I'm worried that he lets too much of how others see him control his fears. He's a very intelligent man and I care for him deeply. And it hurts to see him so down.
He is still being called "ma'am" in his daily life and has been on T for 9 months.

I know I can give him advice all day long from my experiences, but I need help from a man's perspective. Have you been in a similar situation where it seems like you didn't pass at 9 months?
has anyone ever not passed for male? if so, was it because of genetics? or the type of T? i.e. gel, Injectable, etc.

What would you give him as your bit of advice?

It took me like 2 years to pass fully. Mostly face issues. I had top surgery a few weeks in to T and always had male fat patterns - so no womanly shape to speak of. And yet it still took me a long time. I was pretty as a woman, so I'm pretty certain it was my facial features. Now I could no longer be called attractive in the slightest.  But I pass.

I was in the 50/50 androgynous stage for most of it. It was hilarious traveling. Literally, at the airport it'd be every other person would 'ma'am' me after just being called sir. My voice is ok but not overly deep. So, probably a combination of the two. If he can grow decent facial hair, that might help a bit.

So anyway, it doesn't seem to be very common, but there are those of us who take awhile. How big is he? You said he's no supermodel waif. This isn't very PC, but I think sometimes bigger guys are more likely to get read as butch because of lesbian stereotypes. Certainly by no means universal, but I've seen a few guys take awhile to pass because of it. Whereas with smaller guys, people are more likely to assume young boy than dyke. When I was at the 50/50 stage, I was either taken for a 13 year old fat boy or a butch. Location counts for a lot too. In cities with large LGBT populations (where I live currently), this is more likely to happen.

Not sure about gel vs injectables. I've always injected.
Anyway, hope this helps. Tell him to pm me if he needs support. That stage was tough.

Quote from: Fat Admin on January 10, 2013, 05:20:30 AM
It took me like 2 years to pass fully. Mostly face issues. I had top surgery a few weeks in to T and always had male fat patterns - so no womanly shape to speak of. And yet it still took me a long time. I was pretty as a woman, so I'm pretty certain it was my facial features. Now I could no longer be called attractive in the slightest.  But I pass.

I think it's my face. I have big eyes, and while my jaw is fairly square, everything is just pretty babyish. I also have big lips.

QuoteHow big is he? You said he's no supermodel waif. This isn't very PC, but I think sometimes bigger guys are more likely to get read as butch because of lesbian stereotypes.

I'm not very large, but I am a bit bigger (I carry my weight fairly well, thank god). I gained most of it in the past year due to depression - before that I was in pretty good shape, but I found I still didn't pass when I was thin, either. I've been working hard at it for the last month or so, but it's not significant enough to tell how it'll affect me yet.

Quote
Anyway, hope this helps. Tell him to pm me if he needs support. That stage was tough.

Honestly, it does help to see that it took you two years to pass fully. I knew it would be a struggle for me (I too was "pretty"), and I know that no matter what I'd die before ever stopping my transition. While I was and am realistic in my expectations, it does hurt. All I want is to be seen as the guy I am...and as more time passes, sometimes that seems less and less likely since I am behind most other guys. The thought of being seen as a woman, forever, no matter what, scares me to death. But if there are others who take longer, perhaps I still have my chance. I may just take you up on that PM offer some time soon. The last few days have been pretty emotionally rough.

You know Caleb you are a very lucky man.

Ok stuff isn't happening as quick as you would like, ->-bleeped-<- does it ever. And life is a struggle.

But you have people who love you. Keaira is one hell of a woman and is one hell of a friend to have.

When things are tough and lets be honest, tough is what we face, you need friends. Ok you have us a s a family and we will be with you every inch.

But you also have a friend who walks with you. You are a lucky man, and she is a gorgeous woman.

Hugs

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on January 10, 2013, 06:06:31 AM
But you also have a friend who walks with you. You are a lucky man

That is very true. I was a pretty pathetic sight at a few points tonight but Keaira, as well as our friend Azmaria, sat there and did what they could to make me feel better. It would have been an awful thing to go through by myself.

Lucky man with two friends.

When you calm down have a think what happened. Try and analyse the situation. What were the problems, go to the basics not the end result.

Then you can post them and we can help.

I've given more injections to people that most.

I have drawn blood from more that the oldest vampire so I can help with that.

There are lots of guys here who are in turmoil and worry - lots of girls too.

So break it down and lets start having a chat about it.

Problems shared aren't any smaller but they are easier to address.

The injection panic has passed - some T leaked, but it's not the end of the world. I'm only worried that in my rush, I may end up with an infection. But on a larger scale, I'm just very afraid that I will never pass.

I am thrilled with T all in all - all the changes I have had have been beyond excellent. All have been completely affirming. I know that passing isn't everything. It's about how you feel about yourself, and being true to yourself instead of hiding, but...that's kind of the thing. I'm a teaching assistant right now, and here I am leading tutorials, telling them I'm a guy, and yet...there's all these cis men my age and younger who actually look like men. They have beards, penises (I assume), they can walk confidently in this world as guys. And here's me, a short guy, no facial hair, this high voice. Having no penis and boobs is hard enough and makes me feel like less of a man. When you put the fact that I don't even look like a guy...well, it hurts, and I feel like I'm not good enough for anyone. My body isn't just wrong, it's super wrong and won't respond to the hormones in the way most other guys' do. Again, I know T is different for everyone, I know not everyone passes and gets the changes they want, but all I want is to just be one of the guys. no questions, nothing, just a regular guy.

9 months may be too soon to worry, but it's a really upsetting thought to think that I may be stuck this way forever.

I should add that it doesn't seem to matter what I do. I act like a guy. I bind and pack whenever I go out. Always. I dress like a guy. I've tried so many haircuts and clothing styles, so many glasses, all of it. Every single passing tip that exists...I've tried it.

Not sure that concentrating on passing is so important. I am a man, always have been, never questioned it. The problem is, I spent my whole life hearing Miss and Ma'am. In my twenties I would angrily tell them it was Sir. In my thirties I would firmly remind them it was Sir. In my forties I came to the realization that it wasn't anyone's fault that l don't look like much of a man. Now I just smile and say "No problem, I know I send mixed signals." Caleb, just accept yourself and realize that you'll never change people's perceptions and reactions. If you're happy with yourself, it won't matter what anyone else thinks. Keaira, you're a good friend and an awesome person. Hugs to both of you, Devlyn

Quote from: Caleb. on January 10, 2013, 06:25:55 AM

I should add that it doesn't seem to matter what I do. I act like a guy. I bind and pack whenever I go out. Always. I dress like a guy. I've tried so many haircuts and clothing styles, so many glasses, all of it. Every single passing tip that exists...I've tried it.

Yep. Been there.

Are you passing at all?

You know the secret to passing to everyone?

I have to do it as well.

Guys do it all the time as do girls, and I mean the ones who were not born with our problems.

Confidence.

Your not born with it. No one is. You at times fake it. But we have to do it.

You already do with spades on top. If you can walk into a room as a teaching assistant and exude that confidence of being a guy. You have it.

I have to. I have a deep Liverpudlian/Australian voice that sounds like razor blades being garggled. Very feminine. I lecture, 300plus students a go.

I present at professional meetings.

There is NO WAY I can ever be in stealth I am too well know.

I will always be the pathologist that had the sex change.

I don't give a damn.

I'm me: more of a woman then they will ever have and more of a man than they can ever be.

I walk my path and I walk with pride.

So should you.

Lots of men pretend they can be tough, few are: they never have to face it. Many, sadly, hide behind brawn and prejudice.

They are the lesser men.

A man such as yourself walks his own path and it can be lonely. Sometimes you will be insulted and feel like crap from 'not being one of the guys' but you will smile and gather strength from that. Because you are a man.

You know what it means to be a man. I could never be one. I never had that manliness, no matter what my gonads looked like, I'm a woman and I walk that path with both pride and regret.

I cannot have the children I so desire. Silly.

But I have a woman's courage. And as a woman I do see something special in some men, be them mature or young.

Yes, you are a young man, you have your life as a Prince of the Universe before you.

Be proud because to be honest I know many many men; both cis born and trans born, they are so similar it just isn't funny. No matter what their physical attributes are.

Men are men.

And you my friend are a man.

So get used to it

Cindy

Here are some things i am thinking

1. the gel is notorious for being slower (doctors like to say gradual) I use for a 1 year and I hated i

2. my first shot went like this:
               Sat on the toilet, super excited. Got psyched up and ready for all the pain i was sure i was going
               to have.  jabbed the needle into my leg. Was so excited about it not hurting so i stood up to get
               an alcohol wipe from the counter. i stood up with the needle in my leg so it tore through my
               muscle and then i was in immense pain. lol.

3. A few drops of testoterone always come out of my shot

4. I am pretty much a slob and never use alchohol wipe anymore, i just draw, jab and go. never had an infection and unless you dropped the needle in a steaming brown pile of warm dog feces with chunks of corn splattered in it and slimy white tape worms/maggots, you probably wont either.

5. Right now might suck, but i bet within a year you will look back and not even remember what its like to not pass.

See Caleb? You're not alone and it's not the end of the world. That was last month
You're doing well and you have your Susans family here, me and Azmaria to help. Practice makes perfect. so keep pushing forward. I am proud of you.

I think passing depends on where you are and what femenine/maculine features you have. I also think some people are way more lucky in passing than other.

I also got this baby face thing, I try not to cover my body in big clothes as I do before cause then all people notice is this face. which make me less pass able.

things who make me pass is my voice, my shape (not extremly manly but not girly)
maybe you should wonder what his good and bad features is, things like the right clothes, the right haircut, who show off the right features and hide the ones you dont want to see, can really make a diffrent.
---

I havent read all of the replies, so apologies if this has already been said.

Just giving my opinion. I have been on and off T and only for the last couple months been on it stable. I work hard at the gym so thats helped give me a fuller frame <---- this helps.

Also I think it is how you project yourself/ hold yourself etc. I think it can make a big difference (atleast it did for me).

I am pre-T. I don't pass at all (Ok, I guess I am passing or approximating anyway where people aren't sure what I am). I get ma'amed a lot on a bad day. Other days this happens several people are ma'amed in front of me and they get to me and they don't know what to call me. And oh yes I have the two second pass. That's where some person says "sir" or something. Doesn't last long. I hate being ma'amed with a passion but there isn't much I can do.

I dress all male and have a male haircut. I think it is both my age and size. I am short (5'1") and I am older so I can't pass as a young male who isn't shaving yet. I am also slight with no muscles though I work out. I still sound female, of course, being pre-T but I can lower my voice for a few words which I like doing if they aren't sure. I have no idea how my mannerisms are. I am guessing they are "gay".

OTOH, I do NOT think I look bad. I feel so much better as male that I actually think I look good. Sometimes I actually feel a little cocky about it. Trans has definitely been good for my self-confidence even if I am aware of my limited capability to pass at this point. The only people that really treat me as male are the people at the trans center. You could say they are paid to, but oh well. Kind of makes me happy anyway. People who know me well say that I hold myself differently (in a good way that is).

Don't have any secret info or anything, just like yourself and be proud of yourself as you deserve it.

--Jay

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 10, 2013, 06:33:50 AM
In my forties I came to the realization that it wasn't anyone's fault that l don't look like much of a man. Now I just smile and say "No problem, I know I send mixed signals."

I would like to be at this point, tbh. I'd really like to be comfortable as I am and not really care if people see a guy or a girl. My feelings are at conflict with my ideological views and values - I truly do not believe that gender is that important. It is a small part of who we are as people. And yet, at the same time, I know without a doubt I am male and that is how I need to live and it is how I need my body to be. That said though, what you said in your post is actually comforting - it helps to know it happens to others, and gives me a bit more security in going out about my business.

Quote from: Fat Admin on January 10, 2013, 06:44:55 AM
Are you passing at all?

Well, I'm inclined to say no. Up until about a month ago, I was definitely seen as female in 99% of circumstances, as I was referred to as "she" and "ma'am" constantly. Now, I may be getting androgynous but I can say that almost certainly I am not seen as male. I could pass for female without question if I wanted to (obviously don't, lol). I get a "sir" maybe once or twice a month. The rest is ma'ams. BUT I found that lately, people are avoiding pronouns more and more - I tend to not get gendered much at all when ordering lunch or whatever. I used to get a ton of ma'ams, a couple sirs, and the very rare non-gendered moment. Now it's a handful of ma'ams, a couple of sirs, and quite a few non-gendered moments. So I am inclined to believe that I don't pass for male yet, but I don't really look female either. I can't be sure though because of the lack of confirmation one way or the other.

Quote from: Cindy James on January 10, 2013, 06:52:59 AM
I walk my path and I walk with pride.

So should you.

Actually Cindy, I was going to send you a PM before this thread was made. I was reading your recent threads looking back on your journey thus far and how happy you are, and it is part of what inspired me to start trying to live more for myself. Along with conversations I've had with Keaira. You and I have somewhat similar past traumas, and it hit me with your recent posts how absolutely and utterly terrifying it must have been to go full time. How you probably grappled with much of the same nightmarish fears I do. And it really gave me a lot of comfort. So thank you for that. I do hope that one day I can hold my head as high as you do, and be as happy as you have become.

Quote from: chuck on January 10, 2013, 07:46:15 AM
Here are some things i am thinking

1. the gel is notorious for being slower (doctors like to say gradual) I use for a 1 year and I hated i
4. I am pretty much a slob and never use alchohol wipe anymore, i just draw, jab and go. never had an infection and unless you dropped the needle in a steaming brown pile of warm dog feces with chunks of corn splattered in it and slimy white tape worms/maggots, you probably wont either.

It may have been the gel, yeah. It's hard to say cause I know I do have bad genetics, facially, as well. I passed maybe 2 or 3 times a year pre-T and they weren't really looking, whereas it seems to be a lot of guys can pass at least some of the time before hormones and then with hormones, they pass quite often if not all the time. I've switched over to injections but it seems that so far, I'm getting injuries on the injection site even though I am doing it right and with supervision...so the doctor said I might have to go back to gel. Bah. Let's cross our fingers there because I have noticed a few changes on shots that I was struggling to get with gel.

And lol. That was a nasty image but it is reassuring. I got my site checked out and the doctor doesn't think there will be an issue with infection. He's keeping an eye on it (there's a swollen redness) but he is thouroughly unconvinced it's infectious.

Quote from: Keaira on January 10, 2013, 12:41:25 PM
See Caleb? You're not alone and it's not the end of the world. That was last month
You're doing well and you have your Susans family here, me and Azmaria to help. Practice makes perfect. so keep pushing forward. I am proud of you.

When you linked me to this thread I wasn't sure about it all, but I am glad you made it.

Quote from: Natkat on January 10, 2013, 01:17:40 PM
things who make me pass is my voice, my shape (not extremly manly but not girly)
maybe you should wonder what his good and bad features is, things like the right clothes, the right haircut, who show off the right features and hide the ones you dont want to see, can really make a diffrent

You know, that's a way I'd never really thought about it before. I always focus on the thing that I think don't make me pass and try to make them better. But maybe I should be working what does look male instead. Definitely fruit for thought.

Quote from: Bear on January 10, 2013, 02:36:20 PM
Also I think it is how you project yourself/ hold yourself etc. I think it can make a big difference (atleast it did for me).

This is very possible. My feelings have made it so hard for me just to walk among people comfortably. I get on with life, I refuse to let my fears make me house-bound, but sometimes I don't look very confident at all. Other times I do.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 10, 2013, 06:30:02 PM
Don't have any secret info or anything, just like yourself and be proud of yourself as you deserve it.

That's true. You know, for a few moments today, I believed that there was a possibility others might actually see me as male. Obviously I look no more male today than I did yesterday, but those moments where I believed that people might see a guy, or be able to see a guy, I felt just fine. It was like my mind was silent and I just felt really good. Of course, there were times I went back in my head - thinking, "there's no way all these people see me as a guy, maybe one does and the rest see a girl. Guys don't have faces like this." And then I got feeling really crappy again. But then I'd feel a bit of hope.

Quote from: Caleb. on January 10, 2013, 10:06:54 PM

Well, I'm inclined to say no. Up until about a month ago, I was definitely seen as female in 99% of circumstances, as I was referred to as "she" and "ma'am" constantly. Now, I may be getting androgynous but I can say that almost certainly I am not seen as male. I could pass for female without question if I wanted to (obviously don't, lol). I get a "sir" maybe once or twice a month. The rest is ma'ams. BUT I found that lately, people are avoiding pronouns more and more - I tend to not get gendered much at all when ordering lunch or whatever. I used to get a ton of ma'ams, a couple sirs, and the very rare non-gendered moment. Now it's a handful of ma'ams, a couple of sirs, and quite a few non-gendered moments. So I am inclined to believe that I don't pass for male yet, but I don't really look female either. I can't be sure though because of the lack of confirmation one way or the other.

I got the 'unsure/no comment' thing a lot. My favorite was at a little cafe in Paris where the waiter (a delightful but no nonsense older gentleman) didn't pussyfoot around. He just came right up and addressed me as "Monseiur/Madame".  That's the only time I ever got that. Most people either guessed one or avoided it altogether. For some reason, the way the waiter addressed me made me feel more 'human'. Like he couldn't tell, wasn't going to guess and it didn't matter. Very dignified.

QuoteI passed maybe 2 or 3 times a year pre-T and they weren't really looking, whereas it seems to be a lot of guys can pass at least some of the time before hormones and then with hormones, they pass quite often if not all the time.

This was my experience as well. Actually, I only passed in these situations where it was expected the 'perp' was a guy. There were some quite hilarious (and advantageous) situations.  "That witness is lying. There is no other 'guy'." 

Quote from: Fat Admin on January 10, 2013, 10:46:01 PM
I got the 'unsure/no comment' thing a lot. My favorite was at a little cafe in Paris where the waiter (a delightful but no nonsense older gentleman) didn't pussyfoot around. He just came right up and addressed me as "Monseiur/Madame".  That's the only time I ever got that. Most people either guessed one or avoided it altogether. For some reason, the way the waiter addressed me made me feel more 'human'. Like he couldn't tell, wasn't going to guess and it didn't matter. Very dignified.

This is hilarious. Maybe only in France??  Never heard this one, but I had a much less polite one once. Someone at a farmer's market said "something like 'excuse me miss'". And then realized a mistake of some kind was made. "Well 'this person'" Seemed like she was putting me in the third person and was obviously just as confused as heck and perhaps not happy with not being able to gender me.

Not too unhappy with confusion actually. I am non-binary in my feelings anyway. I want to look male but if they aren't sure, I'm actually okay with that.

The problem with the confusion state is that it means you are likely not passing. Of course I wouldn't have any reason to think that they would being pre-T and all, but I look very androgynous. People are obviously reading tiny little social cues. But we are trained at a very early age to do this.



--Jay

Here he is, I caught him smiling tonight. I'll post this in the Do I pass thread too.  I love seeing him smile.

Great smile. I think he's close. He'll get there.