Doesn't much matter re: your father's side. It's your mom's side. Male pattern baldness is linked on the X chromosome. And then again most of us may have two X chromosomes. So it may be also our dad's mom as well.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on January 20, 2013, 03:49:49 PM
Doesn't much matter re: your father's side. It's your mom's side. Male pattern baldness is linked on the X chromosome. And then again most of us may have two X chromosomes. So it may be also our dad's mom as well.

Jay, that's always confused me. If I'm XX it does seem like both sides could contribute to balding. Not sure about body hairiness though...that's the one I'm really curious about. Only time and T will tell I suppose.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 20, 2013, 03:49:49 PM
Doesn't much matter re: your father's side. It's your mom's side. Male pattern baldness is linked on the X chromosome. And then again most of us may have two X chromosomes. So it may be also our dad's mom as well.

--Jay

It's both sides for transmen.

Biomen only have to worry about their mother's side because she's where they get their single X chromosome. Transmen, meanwhile, have two X's, one from each parent, so both parents are relevant when considering X-linked conditions. Your dad only has one X, so if he has male pattern baldness, you're guaranteed to have the gene for it on one of your X's.

However, I'm not sure if a single gene is enough to actually cause baldness if your other X chromosome contains a non-bald gene to cover for it. It depends on whether male pattern baldness is recessive or not. If it isn't, you'll definitely have it if your dad does. If it is, you'll need to look towards your mother's father and mother's mother's father for clues.

Apparently male pattern baldness acts dominant in XY people, which makes sense, otherwise there would be no bald cis men at all, and recessive in XX people, which also makes sense, because there aren't that many balding cis women.

In any case I'm stuffed, both my grandfathers are bald except the ring of hair around the backs of their heads, and my grandmother on my mothers' side has lost quite a lot of hair as well, although that might be connected to her coeliac disease because that didn't help her osteoporosis or anemia as it went undiagnosed for so long.

Quote from: Alex000000 on January 20, 2013, 05:15:54 PM
Apparently male pattern baldness acts dominant in XY people, which makes sense, otherwise there would be no bald cis men at all, and recessive in XX people, which also makes sense, because there aren't that many balding cis women.

That's not really how it works. The gene is either recessive or dominant. If it's dominant, it will always be expressed; if it's recessive, it will always fail to express unless it's the only gene available.

Male pattern baldness is a tricky case because there's another factor which influences its expression: testosterone. A ciswoman might have two baldness X chromosomes, but because her body creates primarily oestrogen, she won't go bald. For this reason, the lack of baldness in ciswomen doesn't really suggest anything about the recessiveness/dominance of the male pattern baldness gene.

Um Simon buddy, you do know that men tend to age better than women don't ya? 

Quote from: Fat Admin on January 20, 2013, 05:43:41 PM
Um Simon buddy, you do know that men tend to age better than women don't ya? 

They die sooner though. D:

Recessive traits that show up on the X gene are more common in people with XY chromosomes because they only have one X. That's why there are more colourblind people with XY chromosomes too.

Great post Simon!

I'm not jumping in to start T anytime soon because of other health issues that I have to deal with first, but when I do start, I'll be more than happy to take the bad with the good: hair thinning out, getting more hair in other places (which I wouldn't mind to begin with), aging, weight gain, etc.

T certainly won't be the end of all problems for me.  In fact, I know that I'll go from looking like an ugly girl to an even uglier man but that's fine with me.

Quote from: ford on January 20, 2013, 04:36:05 PM
Jay, that's always confused me. If I'm XX it does seem like both sides could contribute to balding. Not sure about body hairiness though...that's the one I'm really curious about. Only time and T will tell I suppose.

I don't know at all about body hairiness. That's another gene/genes, I think.

--Jay

Quote from: LearnedHand on January 16, 2013, 02:56:51 PM
This may be a stupid question, but since I am not on T just curious to know, when you go into the endo or whoever gives you the T prescription, do they really give you a good talk about the side effects, etc. of being on T? Or is it just like "okay, here you go" and they just expect you to do the research yourself?

my doctor went to great lengths to make me understand the risks and how it works with hrt. my doctor is a really good doctor and a really nice guy.

Quote from: AlexD on January 20, 2013, 05:42:02 PM
That's not really how it works. The gene is either recessive or dominant. If it's dominant, it will always be expressed; if it's recessive, it will always fail to express unless it's the only gene available.

Male pattern baldness is a tricky case because there's another factor which influences its expression: testosterone. A ciswoman might have two baldness X chromosomes, but because her body creates primarily oestrogen, she won't go bald. For this reason, the lack of baldness in ciswomen doesn't really suggest anything about the recessiveness/dominance of the male pattern baldness gene.

Google it. Every single page I looked at said the same thing, I was just passing that on, which is why I said "apparently". In women I think it shows more as thinning hair rather than them being a complete slaphead due to their lower T levels, but it's still there.

Quote from: Alex000000 on January 21, 2013, 04:32:14 AM
complete slaphead

Off topic but that's the best term I've heard when discussing baldness on T. I just tend to call people (mainly chavs) slapheads when they have a shaved head.

My doctor just told me to chill about balding because at the end of the day he said, we can only get so far by looking at our family. Our parents' genes have not combined in the exact way that ours have before (unless we have an identical twin of course) so short of analyzing genes, it's all just educated guess work. Just work to being able to deal with any consequence.

I think it's interesting that so many trans guys say that we have to face facts and realize that we are going to get the same effects as cis guys--balding, gut, body hair in weird places, health issues, and so forth. Frankly, I don't understand why people need this warning. Have they been living with their heads in the sand, or are they simply doing their own transition in their own way?

It's also interesting that so many trans guys say that they are okay with all of these changes. Most cis guys that I talk to are not so thrilled about the changes, and many of those guys took a long time to get used to them. Some of them go to great lengths to battle the effects. Why should we be any different? I realize that we have a heightened awareness of male markers and characteristics, but why should I be expected to revel in my thinning hair when so many of my cis friends are just as cranky about their own incipient baldness?

BTW, I'm not accusing anyone here of saying that it's not okay for me to be sensitive about effects that I don't like. Some people in other threads have implied it. But I've directly experienced that kind of pressure in my own community here. It's yet another reason that I don't hang around with the local guys so much anymore. The "like it or lump it" approach bothers me. My cis buddies don't usually "like it"; they tend to either fight the effects or make their peace with them. If I go through a similar process, I'm just acting the same way they do.

Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 02:18:22 PM
I think it's interesting that so many trans guys say that we have to face facts and realize that we are going to get the same effects as cis guys--balding, gut, body hair in weird places, health issues, and so forth. Frankly, I don't understand why people need this warning. Have they been living with their heads in the sand, or are they simply doing their own transition in their own way?

It's also interesting that so many trans guys say that they are okay with all of these changes. Most cis guys that I talk to are not so thrilled about the changes, and many of those guys took a long time to get used to them. Some of them go to great lengths to battle the effects. Why should we be any different? I realize that we have a heightened awareness of male markers and characteristics, but why should I be expected to revel in my thinning hair when so many of my cis friends are just as cranky about their own incipient baldness?

BTW, I'm not accusing anyone here of saying that it's not okay for me to be sensitive about effects that I don't like. Some people in other threads have implied it. But I've directly experienced that kind of pressure in my own community here. It's yet another reason that I don't hang around with the local guys so much anymore. The "like it or lump it" approach bothers me. My cis buddies don't usually "like it"; they tend to either fight the effects or make their peace with them. If I go through a similar process, I'm just acting the same way they do.

Yeah, I never said that people need to like it or lump it when it comes to transition effects. I think people want to stick to facts and figures and maybe secretly feel if you don't love every aspect of physical transition 100%, 100% of the time they side-eye you and question why you're transitioning. Which is BS in my opinion. It seems like in "the community" you have to like everything and be 100% ok with transition 100% of the time and be very matter of fact about things. To be honest, this bothers me too. I do believe people should do research before taking hrt, but beyond that, it's a personal matter and people should be abel to make informed decisions about their body without having to justify why they feel a certain way. This more trans-than thou needs to stop. And I see this this as an extension of that. It's an underlining current. Just my 0.02

Now, from my personal experience, I do like everything 100%, but to be fair, I've only been on T for 11 months. Not really long enough to bald or experience the same side effects of people on T for many years. And, you know, I may change my opinion in a few years. Who knows?

I think it's not intended to be a "like it or lump it" attitude. I have a dog in this fight myself. I'm almost certain in a few years I will be bald or extremely balding. I've had the beginning stages of a receding hairline for years. I also have fine textured hair. Am I happy about it? No, I would rather it not be happening. However, I think it is something I signed on for when I started injecting T. I wish there was a pill that would keep the hair on my head, not be a lifelong medicine, and not interfere with other effects of HRT that I do want. There is no such pill so I've quickly come to terms with taking the bad with the good.

This thread wasn't started to discuss balding per say. It was intended to make guys really think about what they are getting themselves into with HRT. No one necessarily has to like every aspect that testosterone gives them. There are many young people who don't really think that testosterone is going to progress them over the handsome young man phase that T brings on relatively early. Some of it is misinformation and some of it is the lack of elder transmen in the Community who are visible and accessible. 

Transition regret is something that is of importance to our Community. I've seen guy's stories where they're not happy that they decided to take T. I have noticed multiple people say they felt that there is a peer pressure in the trans community to get on hormones and get on with it. Almost as if you're not a "real transman" until you've stuck a needle in your body. There is nothing farther from the truth. In the next decade there is going to be a backlash of people who detransitioned and the medical/mental health communities are going to be a lot more cautious. It won't effect me or anyone who has been in transition for a long time at that point but the up and comers are going to have a harder time. Acceptance by society may very well be getting better but it is our choices that make or break the medical community's willingness to help us.

I also don't think it's a "like it or lump it attitude", I don't want to get a gut, go bald or any of that any more than a cis male would. BUT cis males don't have the problem of going bald or risk looking like a female again. It's just the lesser of two evils. Some trans man might try and fight it, but that can also cause problems with T and it's effectiveness from what some people have said on here, and regardless I'm not against medicine, but I see why I would go through the risks for purely aesthetical reasons. You could say that T is just for that, but I need to feel comfortable with myself to help my mental heath, so that's still an added benefit that makes it worth it.

Quote from: Simon on January 21, 2013, 03:34:24 PM
There are many young people who don't really think that testosterone is going to progress them over the handsome young man phase that T brings on relatively early.

See, this cavalier attitude, this lack of awareness, really bothers me. We are surrounded by cis men. How can a trans man be so clueless about the effects of T?

But I do know that some guys start T conditionally, and some don't intend to stay on it forever. That, I figure, is their right. So I guess I'm trying to make an important distinction here: there's a difference between being clueless about the general effects of T and not knowing what specific effects will happen to oneself. When I'm looking at another guy who seems to belong to one of these categories, I can't necessarily know which camp he falls into.

Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 05:01:42 PM
See, this cavalier attitude, this lack of awareness, really bothers me. We are surrounded by cis men. How can a trans man be so clueless about the effects of T?

I think some guys are cavalier about the process of really studying up on medical transition before starting it because that would mean they might have to wait a little longer. It means they might stumble on something that changes their minds or something that makes them apprehensive.

A big part of the transman experience is supposedly knowing you have to have T and you have to have top surgery. Can't live without it. Shouldn't question it. If you do question it you may be opening yourself up to someone saying you're not a man. Then these guys who aren't 100% positive that this is what they want for the rest of their lives start transitioning medically because "it's what they're supposed to do". There are a lot of things that trans people should sort out before jumping at HRT. It is much better to have doubts before hormones than to deal with doubts a year after you've started.

Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 05:01:42 PM
See, this cavalier attitude, this lack of awareness, really bothers me. We are surrounded by cis men. How can a trans man be so clueless about the effects of T?

Well, there could be a few reasons for that. I only knew what to expect from T by looking a lot on the internet at all types of naked men. and examining them closely, lol. I've never been intimate with a man, I don't even hug men, so I didn't know what their bodies looked like close up. Even in casual situations I just don't really pay much attention to guys because they don't really talk to me. I also just spend so much time around women, and am more comfortable around women, so I don't notice a lot about guys.

I think something else could be people don't realize that the T is as powerful as it is. They think because they were born female they will be exempt from certain changes, or that certain changes won't be as "drastic" (aka you won't be as hairy, or you won't bald because they don't know the cause is T, and not DNA).

Just hunches.

Quote from: Simon on January 21, 2013, 05:22:08 PM
It is much better to have doubts before hormones than to deal with doubts a year after you've started.

I agree with this. People are afraid of doubts. What most people don't know is I read up on hormones (I mean, extensively) for two years before I told a soul other than my partner that I was trans. If I was going to transition, I was going to know as much as possible about what was going to happen and if it was worth it to me. Then I was out for about 3 years before starting T (although that wasn't completely my choice).