Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 06:36:19 PM
I don't hold to the somewhat common belief that gender is a spectrum.

Understanding another has to start somewhere.

Then, may I ask, gender -- to you -- is just male or female? What is your concept of gender? And what of sex? Are the two truly interchangeable? I...just can't grasp the idea of being pidgeon-holed into one box for another with such specific definitions in what is/not a wo/man and what is/not a transgender.

Male/female is sex.
Man/woman is gender.

I feel like I'm going in circles. So, I'll say this, I see where you stand. I acknowledge it, but I will never truly understand it nor do I agree. Thank you for sharing your opinion, and I will continue to wonder at the world and its variations deep into my years.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 29, 2013, 12:53:54 AM
Male/female is sex.
Man/woman is gender.

so for like people who are neither of those do you just like deny their existence or
i mean even without getting into sexual dimorphism and the ample room to talk about the fact that intermediate states exist phsyiologically which if there's some sort of analogous fixed and internal conceptualization of gender would precipitate non-binary genders at least a little bit of the time...

manhood and womanhood are pure social constructions.  so to say everyone is one of the two implies there's some sort of cross-cultural universal Two True Genders.
which isn't true, given the fact that other cultures don't subscribe to western views of gender or even sex (i.e., sworn virgins of albania, bakla in the philippines, hijra in india/pakistan/bangaldesh, muxe in zapotec circles, to name just a few).  and to say that they don't exist or that they're wrong is honestly kinda imperialist and inappropriate.

Take my opinions how you'd like to.

there are only so many ways to interpret "i don't hold the belief that gender is a spectrum", and none of them are good.

just sayin'.

Quote from: Simon on January 28, 2013, 05:53:29 PM
It is someone who uses hormones for vanity reasons (for example: I want a lower voice but nothing else). Then typically they get irreversible effects of hormones they don't want and blame everyone else around them for pushing them towards hormones. THAT is a transtrender and if that is your decision I don't support it.

This assumption that these people even exist in this exact way is thrown around in every single one of these threads that touch on this subject in one way or another. Who are these people? If they exist in droves, they should be easy to point out, yet I've never once seen an example of someone actually behaving this way. I sorta pay attention to trans tumblr bloggers and vloggers, but not really all that much - maybe I am just missing it.

So, please enlighten me. Where should I look to find these people that use hormones only as a vanity project and then regret the after effects? Not just non-binary people, but people who make that exact claim. 

I am not being snarky or facetious - I really want to know.  Not just, "look on tumblr or youtube" either - specific links to support this argument, if possible, please.

Also - everyone in this thread should read "Nobody Passes", edited by Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore. It's a collection of essays, and it addresses themes in this thread from a variety of perspectives.

Quote from: spacerace on January 29, 2013, 04:06:58 AM
So, please enlighten me. Where should I look to find these people that use hormones only as a vanity project and then regret the after effects? Not just non-binary people, but people who make that exact claim.

I've personally come across it twice from people I knew back when I was a little active in the trans community. I don't know how many other people have come across and I only base my opinions on what I have seen with my own two eyes.

I fall into a minority with certain beliefs I hold and that is ok. I'm not here to convince anyone.

I know my opinion isn't a popular one. Fine...so be it.

 

I just wanted to trow in my thoughts, I know this is on the FTM board but it does bring a valid point that affects all TG people.  Currently we live in a two gender world where we all are sorted by what sex we are born and then gender stereotypes assigned based on that solely.  For the trans person it's obviously a different story, however for the others in the world taking a look in, it may be easier for them to grasp the concept of a passing macho FTM or a passing femme MTF then someone who doesn't fit either role.  That being said, I think slowly, albeit at a snails pace, that view is changing. Within the trans community we need to be accepting and open to all gender variations, where else are we supposed to ban together, many don't or un able or even willing to pass.  But it still takes courage to face the world as you are.  Keeping that in mind, you must remember then "media" is going to look for extremes to sell stories and grab attention, that's their job, and ours is to represent ourselves respectfully no matter what our "passing" status may be.  Beside what about an androgynous person? When are they considered passing? Or someone who identifies as gender queer? The trans community is probably one of the most diverse out there, but the general population normally can't handle that. Currently we are at the first breakthrough stages of gaining general public acceptance and need to be mindful on how we are perceived.  Do non binaries hurt us.. No, not really, I think a passing TG person who dashes others by imposing standards of passing actually may cause more harm by keeping others back.  In general I think tastefulness and tact are the two most important factors that can impact our community the most.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 29, 2013, 01:54:50 AM
Take my opinions how you'd like to.

I don't know where the concept of "it's my opinion" being the ultimate perfect defense forever and always came from... but it's not. Saying it's "my opinion" that I'm worthless and don't exist, doesn't actually successfully make your statement less rude than it otherwise would be. It doesn't make you not-a-jerk.

"Everyone has a right to an opinion" is possibly the most meaningless statement ever dreamed up. Sure, you have a right to being an unpleasant human being. But I think being an educated, aware, and kind human being is actually better. All opinions are simply not equal. This is where etiquette comes in. Politeness. The capacity to carry on a conversation with someone you potentially disagree with.

And I know there's even a kind of attractive temptation attached to "being-a-jerk." Somehow it's perceived as honesty. Nope. It's actually just rude. It is very easy to say the same things without being horrible. The English language is almost infinitely flexible. So if you are choosing to use words that make other people feel BAD, even after they have indicated that those are not-polite things to say, what kind of human are you actually? A human who LIKES hurting other humans. Charming.

Now I know this is on the FTM board. And I have been told recently that apparently posting here is problematic for x-y-x reasons. But you start saying nasty things about me, and I feel like I don't care so much if it's problematic anymore.

And you know what's funny? I have a rep point from you for telling someone to be POLITE. To express themselves better. So you understand this. You understand why this stuff matters. You are just, what? Enjoying yourself there, buddy? Cause I'm not.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 04:26:13 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, what people do with their own bodies is their choice and I certainly have no hold over others.  But that doesn't mean I'm obligated to agree with people's decisions.

Ok ill settle this one - wheat thins ARE delicious. Stop the hate.

ok but in all seriousness i agree with you wheat. It's fine with me however people want to identify. No probs. But I wish that other transmen  or genderqueer folks or whatever wouldn't show off all the things that identify them as trans. because it causes people to use those same identifiers to call me trans when i do not identify that way. I dont really  care enough about it to get all excited. I dont think i could convince someone i was anything other than a male if i paid them.

I also think that by being so extremely oppositional to 'norms' it does make it harder for folks to be accepted. Its sort of like gay pride parades when you have drag queens with boas and rainbow speedos, and then you have the guys in bussiness suits holding signs say "we would like equal rights". Which group is going to make more progress?

the quickest rout to acceptance is "hey, they aren't so different from me after all. All they want is to be treated like human beings.'

Dont get me wrong, everyone has a right to be who they are, but lets be realistic about who is going to encourage and discourage acceptance. 
It doesnt really matter to me in the end, I try to be there for other guys going through what i have gone through, but I have no desire nor do i feel its important for anyone to know about my medical history. 

I think it comes down to how peope identify too. So it becomes personal and people get offended. I tend to not get offended by other people's opinions or identidy. you want to call yourself a gender queer, anime, furry pansexual body contortinist. Right on! thats neat.  But dont tell others that the sum of your identity represents the parts.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 29, 2013, 06:35:49 AM
I don't know where the concept of "it's my opinion" being the ultimate perfect defense forever and always came from... but it's not. Saying it's "my opinion" that I'm worthless and don't exist, doesn't actually successfully make your statement less rude than it otherwise would be. It doesn't make you not-a-jerk.

"Everyone has a right to an opinion" is possibly the most meaningless statement ever dreamed up. Sure, you have a right to being an unpleasant human being. But I think being an educated, aware, and kind human being is actually better. All opinions are simply not equal. This is where etiquette comes in. Politeness. The capacity to carry on a conversation with someone you potentially disagree with.

And I know there's even a kind of attractive temptation attached to "being-a-jerk." Somehow it's perceived as honesty. Nope. It's actually just rude. It is very easy to say the same things without being horrible. The English language is almost infinitely flexible. So if you are choosing to use words that make other people feel BAD, even after they have indicated that those are not-polite things to say, what kind of human are you actually? A human who LIKES hurting other humans. Charming.

Now I know this is on the FTM board. And I have been told recently that apparently posting here is problematic for x-y-x reasons. But you start saying nasty things about me, and I feel like I don't care so much if it's problematic anymore.

And you know what's funny? I have a rep point from you for telling someone to be POLITE. To express themselves better. So you understand this. You understand why this stuff matters. You are just, what? Enjoying yourself there, buddy? Cause I'm not.

hmmm so someone who wants to identify as not a man and not a woman and wants the world to accept hir as a non gendered being has a right to do so, but this guy doesnt have a right to disagree? Nah. I once saw a kid on the street who had shaved straight down the center of his head. He looked like bozo the clown. I started laughing when i saw him. He said "you dont have a right to laugh at me" but you know what? The exact same principal that allows him to shave the middle of his head, gives me the right to laugh.

.................except shaving your head down the middle isn't an identity.

(also, just because you are free to laugh at him, that you *can* do so, doesn't mean it isn't rude, and that you should.)

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 08:48:51 AM
hmmm so someone who wants to identify as not a man and not a woman and wants the world to accept hir as a non gendered being has a right to do so, but this guy doesnt have a right to disagree? Nah. I once saw a kid on the street who had shaved straight down the center of his. He looked like bozo the clown. I started laughing when i saw him. He said "you dont have a right to laugh at me" but you know what? The exact same principal that allows him to shave the middle of his head, gives me the right to laugh.

It's not the same.  Him shaving his head hurts no one, you laughing could hurt him.  Would you want someone to laugh at you for what you were wearing or your haircut?  I'm assuming not.  In the same way, if a non-binary person wants to live as non-binary then that's their right.  It's not anyone's right to say that non-binary people don't exist, which is basically saying that they think they're a total headcase.  If someone believes that non-binary people don't exist then that's fine, but there's no need to go and say that in places where you know there's going to be hurt and discomfort caused from it.

An opinion is an opinion yes, and everyone's entitled to one, but have some respect for the people around you and don't air them where you're going to be saying that they're crazy because their lifestyle and views don't fit in with your opinion of the world.  Do they hurt you by being non-binary?  Funnily enough that's kinda what we're supposed to be discussing in this thread.  If they don't, then just respect them.  If they do, have a rational discussion and try and work out our problems.  We all just want to be comfortable, we shouldn't have people going through similar struggles causing us discomfort.

Quote from: transtrender on January 29, 2013, 08:58:54 AM
.................except shaving your head down the middle isn't an identity.

(also, just because you are free to laugh at him, that you *can* do so, doesn't mean it isn't rude, and that you should.)

You dont know, it could have been a huge a part of his identity. I agree that it could be interpreted as 'rude' but thats not my point. My point is that we cant go around demanding others to not find use offensive, funny, weird, strange, awesome, magical, worthless or silly. People have reactions to others and those reactions are just as valid as the person's identity. Assuming no one is getting violent!   

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
You dont know, it could have been a huge a part of his identity. I agree that it could be interpreted as 'rude' but thats not my point. My point is that we cant go around demanding others to not find use offensive, funny, weird, strange, awesome, magical, worthless or silly. People have reactions to others and those reactions are just as valid as the person's identity. Assuming no one is getting violent!

Is physical violence the only thing that counts?  I can't remember one time where physical pain has had a long lasting effect on me.

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
You dont know, it could have been a huge a part of his identity. I agree that it could be interpreted as 'rude' but thats not my point. My point is that we cant go around demanding others to not find use offensive, funny, weird, strange, awesome, magical, worthless or silly. People have reactions to others and those reactions are just as valid as the person's identity. Assuming no one is getting violent!   

it means the same thing, yo.  it's what cis people do to trans people.  anti-trans violence is founded in society finding us freakish, finding us offensive, finding us weird and unacceptable to the prevailing concept of gender put in place by society.  by your logic, cis people are well within their rights to mock trans people they see who don't pass, going as far as throwing out any slur in the dictionary they find appropriate, and they have "just as much of a right" to do that as the trans person has to take a step outside the door.

sorry, but that's bs.

Quote from: AlexanderC on January 29, 2013, 09:04:11 AM
It's not the same.  Him shaving his head hurts no one, you laughing could hurt him.  Would you want someone to laugh at you for what you were wearing or your haircut?  I'm assuming not.  In the same way, if a non-binary person wants to live as non-binary then that's their right.  It's not anyone's right to say that non-binary people don't exist, which is basically saying that they think they're a total headcase.  If someone believes that non-binary people don't exist then that's fine, but there's no need to go and say that in places where you know there's going to be hurt and discomfort caused from it.

An opinion is an opinion yes, and everyone's entitled to one, but have some respect for the people around you and don't air them where you're going to be saying that they're crazy because their lifestyle and views don't fit in with your opinion of the world.  Do they hurt you by being non-binary?  Funnily enough that's kinda what we're supposed to be discussing in this thread.  If they don't, then just respect them.  If they do, have a rational discussion and try and work out our problems.  We all just want to be comfortable, we shouldn't have people going through similar struggles causing us discomfort.

ok, so dont share your opinion when it hurts others? Got it. Just for the record, I not only think non binary folks exist, i totally support them being non binary. I am a pretty extreme liberal. Be who you want, be a man or a woman or neither or both. Be what you feel you are on the inside. I dont think anyone is worthless because of their gender identity.

and i totally agree with you that we shouldnt be hurting one another. I just think that everyone has a right to their own reaction. I do not identify as trans, but I am 100 percent here on the board to help anyone who has questions. As a man who has been on testosterone for over 10 years, has had top and bottom surgery, I have no desire to be 'out' but i do want to help others in any way possible. I dont care if that person is trans or male or gender queer or what not. We all have a right to our opinions and I dont think its ok to call names because someone disagrees. 

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 08:48:51 AMThe exact same principal that allows him to shave the middle of his head, gives me the right to laugh.

Oh honey, I wasn't arguing against freedom of choice. I was arguing in favour of choosing to be kind. You can choose to be a jerk all you like. But what do you want me to say? That was an awesome thing you did by trying to humiliate some harmless kid?

I'd say what I think of your behaviour. But I promised Devlyn I'd try to clean up my language.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 29, 2013, 09:20:30 AM
Oh honey, I wasn't arguing against freedom of choice. I was arguing in favour of choosing to be kind. You can choose to be a jerk all you like. But what do you want me to say? That was an awesome thing you did by trying to humiliate some harmless kid?

I'd say what I think of your behaviour. But I promised Devlyn I'd try to clean up my language.

oh. Gotcha. I agree, I think most people try to be kind. The "kid" was older than me because I was a kid when it happened. He was bigger than me so I wouldnt call him harmless and I fail to see how using words like "jerk" is any better than me finding a haircut funny.

I truly feel my words are being misinterpreted here. I am not sure how many times i have to say that i support non binary definitions of gender, but i do. i just also think its ok to not understand or not think that non binary identity applies to ones self. Come on now folks.

I just dont want folks to misunderstand my point.