Not ignoring you, spacial, but at the moment I'm too exhausted to give this the attention it deserves. I can barely type, much less think as clearly as I'd need to in order to give this the respectful response it deserves and requires. If I'm snowed in tomorrow morning, and still have power, this should be one of the first post I'll respond to, along with your thoughts on defining gender.

If being cis or trans is some kind of neurological or physiological disorder, I'm almost certainly cis.

Part of why I doubt.

Quote from: Trixie on February 08, 2013, 05:13:54 PM
If being cis or trans is some kind of neurological or physiological disorder, I'm almost certainly cis.

Part of why I doubt.

What makes you think you could detect it?  Particularly when, of the relatively recent and preliminary studies that do suggest it might have physiological roots in certain brain structures (triggered, it seems to be assumed, by atypical events in fetal development) there are very few signs that the structures involved are massive or large enough in volume (physically speaking, NOT in terms of the impact on deeply seated notions of identity) to be detected or diagnostically analyzed, except post mortem, as part of a physical autopsy. 

A few more recent studies have suggested some more obvious differences that might lead to diagnostic tests, but they are far from confirmed at present.  None are anything that seems to have any other significant symptoms associated with it, besides those we've come to consider largely "mental" in nature.

More on this when I have a fresh mind and eyes and fingers.

Quote from: Elspeth on February 08, 2013, 05:28:08 PM
What makes you think you could detect it?  Particularly when, of the relatively recent and preliminary studies that do suggest it might have physiological roots in certain brain structures (triggered, it seems to be assumed, by atypical events in fetal development) there are very few signs that the structures involved are massive or large enough in volume (physically speaking, NOT in terms of the impact on deeply seated notions of identity) to be detected or diagnostically analyzed, except post mortem, as part of a physical autopsy. 

A few more recent studies have suggested some more obvious differences that might lead to diagnostic tests, but they are far from confirmed at present.  None are anything that seems to have any other significant symptoms associated with it, besides those we've come to consider largely "mental" in nature.

More on this when I have a fresh mind and eyes and fingers.

I have kind of assumed that I have a fully "male" brain because I don't really experience physical dysphoria.

I am interested, but not very knowledgeable in psychology or biology, so I really don't know much about this. Apologizes in advance if what I say is way off the mark.

The two biggest questions are

1. Do people really dwell into intersex possibilities because they need a medical excuse to validate how they feel to others so that it may not be as "taboo"?

or

2. Do people really dwell into intersex possibilities for the future medical enlightenment/processes that may derive from it?

Sometimes I think  it's number 1.

I bring this up because of the current discussion in this thread and a video I watched called "For the Bible told me so."

The documentary felt more like a "dont hate us cause this is natural....not a choice; therefore not a sin."  I just shrug my shoulders and think to myself, those who think homosexuality or trans is a sin will not change their minds because of a documentary or new medical evidence. Nor will it changes peoples' perception of LGBT. Change comes from getting to know people who are LGBT and realizing they are human beings. Medical journals and documentaries aren't going to do that.

So I just say I am who I am. Regardless of chromosome tests, blood work, lab work. Straight Cisgender people don't need the labwork to prove they are straight or cis. Neither do I

i am exactly as cis i think i am.

nah, i don't know why i'm trans, and honestly, i don't even really want to know.  usually i'm really interested in dissecting stuff, deconstructing it, figuring things out, and a year ago i'd have been thrilled to find out what it is, but in the mean time, i've realized that they could figure out tomorrow that TRANS PEOPLE ARE JUST SOME CRAZY HOMOS or something even more ridiculous like our brains have been taken over by gender changing fungi and i wouldn't care, because i'm happy, and that's all that matters.

QuoteThe documentary felt more like a "dont hate us cause this is natural....not a choice; therefore not a sin."  I just shrug my shoulders and think to myself, those who think homosexuality or trans is a sin will not change their minds because of a documentary or new medical evidence. Nor will it changes peoples' perception of LGBT. Change comes from getting to know people who are LGBT and realizing they are human beings. Medical journals and documentaries aren't going to do that.

Actually I watched that documentary and Mel White has done a lot for the lgbt community and his organization he started called soulforce.

I have won people over in my family already just from medical and spiritual web pages. It won me over as well.

Learning about the various intersex conditions changed my perception as I go with number 2:

QuoteDo people really dwell into intersex possibilities for the future medical enlightenment/processes that may derive from it?

Informing people of the actual science does help those who are open enough mentally and not so close minded spiritually, but it doesn't always help, in the case of my mom it did not help as she thinks all the doctors who discover these conditions are quacks.

But it helped me immensely and also like i said a few others in my family. Its great to meet people and get to know them in person, but its also great to have science helping along. It is even greater in my opinion to see scriptures in a new light instead of trying to make it something it is not. I have learned a great deal about what the clobbering verses mean now.

I look forward to whatever scientific studies are learned in the future. This is why I personally believe intersex and transgender and orientation have a relationship with one another and we should embrace it.

QuoteStraight Cisgender people don't need the labwork to prove they are straight or cis. Neither do I

Maybe, but in studying the brain in animals and humans it may also show why people are attracted to what they are attracted to, I think 20 years from now we will learn more than we thought. I think the reason certain lgbt organizations are after some science facts is because they are tired of being attacked by people who won't listen.

For me I started getting breasts when i was 16 and did not develop like a typical male, i always wondered what the heck was wrong with me. Then I was diagnosed as schizophrenic and I knew that was wrong as i got older, finally able to get doctors to realize im bi polar.

As science becomes more exact we are better able to understand ourselves and treat conditions. I was glad to finally find out why I had breasts and a micro penis. I was glad to get a proper diagnosis of my mental problems as well.

Quote from: Annah on February 08, 2013, 05:49:28 PM
The two biggest questions are

1. Do people really dwell into intersex possibilities because they need a medical excuse to validate how they feel to others so that it may not be as "taboo"?

or

2. Do people really dwell into intersex possibilities for the future medical enlightenment/processes that may derive from it?

Sometimes I think  it's number 1.

I bring this up because of the current discussion in this thread and a video I watched called "For the Bible told me so."

The documentary felt more like a "dont hate us cause this is natural....not a choice; therefore not a sin."  I just shrug my shoulders and think to myself, those who think homosexuality or trans is a sin will not change their minds because of a documentary or new medical evidence. Nor will it changes peoples' perception of LGBT. Change comes from getting to know people who are LGBT and realizing they are human beings. Medical journals and documentaries aren't going to do that.

So I just say I am who I am. Regardless of chromosome tests, blood work, lab work. Straight Cisgender people don't need the labwork to prove they are straight or cis. Neither do I

Surely someone with an intersexed condition has the opportunity to choose between going either way or remaining in the middle.

What would govern that choice?

We know that some who have been assigned one gender as infants and grown up within that, do later change their minds and attempt to switch. That surely reduces the importance of the nurturer argument.

Quote from: Annah on February 08, 2013, 05:49:28 PM


So I just say I am who I am. Regardless of chromosome tests, blood work, lab work. Straight Cisgender people don't need the labwork to prove they are straight or cis. Neither do I

Fathering children is a firm confirmation of being a fertile cisman...heavy beardgrowth and bodyhair as well...
So I don't understand some things you wrote?

Quote from: Annah on January 17, 2012, 12:46:00 AM


I am intersex. Transsexualism is a freakin walk in the park compared to the physical struggles I went through growing up (and being transsexual is hard too...i changed genders...i know the hell but its miniscule compared to the physical conditions I suffered from being intersex). I have lost count the many times I was rushed to the hospital because my hormones went out of whack every other year, developing co morbids that were extremely painful, having breasts in junior high school (not the man boobs....real breasts), not dating in high school for fear of sexual discovery.

When a transgender can say "oh im intersex" without even really knowing the hell some of us intersex people went through (because they don't like the word transsexual) is insulting; not to mention the attempt to romanticize the intersex condition.

Quote from: Annah on February 08, 2013, 05:49:28 PM
So I just say I am who I am. Regardless of chromosome tests, blood work, lab work. Straight Cisgender people don't need the labwork to prove they are straight or cis. Neither do I

TRUTH BOMB DOT COM

My original point, which has gotten off track ,was that I can imagine all of the people who are sitting there hating on someone who is different than them and not even knowing that they too may be different in a very similar way.

I think its helpful to learn about our bodies and brains in general, cisgendered have been been learning about how they tick in sex ed class way before others have been taught about.

Quote from: Annah on February 08, 2013, 05:49:28 PM
Sometimes I think  it's number 1.

I bring this up because of the current discussion in this thread and a video I watched called "For the Bible told me so."

The documentary felt more like a "dont hate us cause this is natural....not a choice; therefore not a sin."  I just shrug my shoulders and think to myself, those who think homosexuality or trans is a sin will not change their minds because of a documentary or new medical evidence. Nor will it changes peoples' perception of LGBT. Change comes from getting to know people who are LGBT and realizing they are human beings. Medical journals and documentaries aren't going to do that.

One question: Can't it be both? I agree that, especially in some cultures it's almost essential to find a medical reason, something that shows that, if God doesn't make mistakes, then the fact that I was born this way, and can show you physical evidence, tends to more or less force those whose belief systems run like that to start reconsidering their interpretations of scripture.

I say this in part because I only recently managed to connect online to some Mormon transgen people (I grew up Mormon, but distanced myself from it in my teens).  Having followed transgen discussions and debates for decades now, it was a bit shocking to me to find that, at least in concensus, there is a belief that's strongly held among them, and used as a negotiating tactic in some ways within the church to make the case that being transgendered (which to them is mainly defined as transsexual (pre-op)) and excludes het. crossdressers and just about everyone else one might label trans, comes down to making a case that being transsexual is a neurological form of an intersex condition.  So it does wind up having some real relevance for those in that culture, at least for those who wish to maintain a connection to that religious community, and continue to expect, at least, some degree of tolerance. More than a bit disturbing to me, but that was probably, deep down, part of why I left.

In turn, their strategies and negotiations very much turn on providing a compelling case for their assertion, based on as much scientific data as is available. Some also point to the various issues with environmental estrogens and estrogen-mimicking compounds, and the increased commonness of intersex conditions in wildlife to bolster this case, and even to make an argument that, because Mormons believe that spirits choose the bodies they are placed in at birth, transgendered individuals are especially "valiant" for choosing bodies they know will have a very challenging life to live.  It probably makes no sense at all if you weren't born into that church. And I don't mean to ridicule it by describing it briefly. In fact, it tends to break my heart, at least at some level, because staying within those communities as a transgendered person requires a special kind of courage that I fear I may be lacking. Granted, I do feel I've had greater peace of mind in some ways, and it's not like my life has been a cakewalk.

Quote from: Trixie on February 08, 2013, 05:37:32 PM
I have kind of assumed that I have a fully "male" brain because I don't really experience physical dysphoria.

I don't want to assume too much about you. There are people who seem to be perfectly happy with the bodies they were given at birth, who still feel a strong urge to crossdress or engage in other trangendered behaviors. Unless you fill in the blanks we won't know, and many of us do tend to focus mainly on what's personally relevant. I don't feel qualified to comment, at this point, on where things stand with those quite sure they are fully male, and also, people do sometimes alter their POV over time, for instance, realizing that they may be grasping at a way of identifying that leads to the least potential turmoil. I personally find some aspects of the current categories to be open to a lot of potential questions.

I'm also aware, mainly from having been with a doctor from pre med school through to private practice, that there are many more things that remain unknown and unexplored than is probably the common impression for people outside the medical and academic communities that study such things. Psychology, for instance, seems to me to be about where internal medicine was in, say, the 1890s or so.  Meaning, it's more dangerous in some ways to trust a psych practitioner's so-called "knowledge" than it is to trust your own intuition and instincts.

Our culture is hugely biased when it comes to sex, gender and sexual matters in general. Until there's a lot more actual science, I don't tend to trust that the existing theories are more than 20% based in reality, and 80% on prejudice and assumptions that are questionable. That's a wild estimate, by the way... given how things are, I doubt it could be anything else.

Quote from: spacial on February 08, 2013, 07:45:46 AM
You see, these two points are the issue?

You highlight a sub group who present with a problem concerning their physicality as being distinct from those whose problems are their attitude with an otherwise healthy body. But that division is, with respect, arbitrary, though I can fully appreciate that those affected might see otherwise.

That some born with physically identifiable problems may see themselves as more deserving or different from those whose problems are less identifiable is irrelevant. The problem is the same. The triage should be based upon immediate need, not a value judgement, to separate the neurotic vanity from the unfortunates.

I see a couple of tough issues here, though.

One, "physically identifiable" -- how is detectability relevant to need?  And whose detectability are we talking about? If the affected person detects something easily, but medical pros find it difficult or impossible to confirm, you can easily be faced with a fairly crazy-making situation, especially if it turns out, in time, that the condition was something that could have been detected with the right tools or tests. Unfortunately, this applies to a lot of things that wind up being shuffled off to psychiatry, sometimes due mainly to cultural bias and prejudices.

Detectability changed with technology, but if people are consistently distressed in a similar pattern, that doesn't mean they aren't in need of attention and some form of help. One of my long-standing opinions, though, is that we wind up medicalizing something that may have been handled better in other cultures, simply by trusting what people detect in themselves.

One of the first things my ex-therapist pointed out to me was that the problems I was having were not so much in myself -- I knew who and what I was. The problems were mainly in society. It's society that therefore needs the real cure.  Some past societies didn't seem to turn this into a problem the way ours does, and I think a lot of insights over the years, especially in feminist research and discussions, have relevance, because antagonism against women is often at the heart of antagonism against those whose gender identity is atypical for their presumed physical sex, as well as it is against gays, and even the antagonism within gay communities against their more feminine members. (It also plays out in some conflicts against FTMs, particularly among some radfems, but that gets fairly tangled, or at least even more tangled than some of what plays out elsewhere).

Quote
The second point is exactly it. That an issue such as assigned gender for example, is a matter for the individual. People don't complain about somehting as innate as their apparent gender without good reason. Granted, some complain of many strange things and attaching themselves to transgender is no different. But they still have a serious problem and are equally deserving our our support.

The problem being, societies don't tend to leave individuals alone. Societies tend to exploit individuals, to recruit them to play roles, in many cases informally policing members to take on roles in that society for the benefit of either the society as a whole, or those in the society who enjoy being on top, or are desperate not to be put under the treads.

Quote from: Elspeth on February 09, 2013, 05:09:32 PM
I see a couple of tough issues here, though.

One, "physically identifiable" -- how is detectability relevant to need? 

I don't think it is.

But I'm pretty sure you and I have already come to a meeting point on this issue, we just haven't realised it.

It's been a good discussion though and I'm pleased to have learnt so much from you and other. I a;so pleased I have been able to alter my own viewpoint in such an interesting manner.

I'm a little lost with this thread and it is so very important to me.  If I miss understand something that someone has said, I apologise in advance.  I tend to come at problems very differently than some or even most.  I search for causes.  It's the way I'm wired, it's what I do in my job.  I answer "Why" and then I fix the cause as much as possible.  Others deal with the damage.  To me, dealing with an effect is a partial but necessary answer in solving a problem.  Finding the cause and dealing with the cause is the other part of the answer.   The unfortunate truth is often that the state of science or medicine is such that we don't always know the cause.  But, in dealing with someone to whom the cause is important, the truth in figuring out why we are the way we are can sometimes be answered more completely than "here are some hormones and just deal with it".  I would also assert that with a cause, someone with a personality type that needs to know a cause may find options not normally thought about.

So, looking back in this string....

I am trying to figure out what is going in in my mind and body for one reason: PAIN.  Physical PAIN.  In August, I cracked three ribs and ripped an 18" gouge down my side.   I had no idea how serious the accident was it was until my wife screamed and pointed at a lot of blood running down my side.  That pain didn't even compare to what I feel every month when my testicles swell and my pelvis feels like I've been shot.   Pain didn't compare.

Because my gender identity is in question, medical doctors don't pay attention to me - even when their own test data shows something is wrong.  I had a series of meetings early yesterday morning, followed by an ugly work day followed by my wife's grandchildren getting here for the weekend.  I forgot to change my estrogen patch and Friday was day 4.  My left testicle was the size of an orange late this morning and into the afternoon and by about 2:00, I almost couldn't move.  Then I remembered and changed the patch.  It's now seven hours later and the swelling is down and it doesn't hurt that bad anymore.  But is identifying me as MTF and putting my testicles to sleep with estrogen so they don't swell and hurt a good thing?  Is being MTF and swollen testicles related?  If so, how? And now we are back to looking for a cause.

If I find out that I have a biological reason for my being a MTF, I'm using it.  I don't know about anyone else but I know that I will.  Using that as a reason really wouldn't be for me either, it would be for my wife who is really having a problem with this and I think it would help her.  Not worried about anyone else.  My friends know and accept without a physical reason.  I was talking to by boss at work Thursday about some pain in my chest and I promply got the "Where does it hurt?  You know, the pain of a heart attack is different in women than in men."  (She's a first responder.)

Lastly, intersex people blurr the lines between male and female as well as straight and gay.  Intersexed people make some people uncomfortable for that reason.  How can you judge someone when there is a biological reason for at least part of that? 

I'm going to go be with my wife right now - she looks like she needs a foot mesage.  I have enjoyed this thread and the depth of intellectual capacity by the authors is great.  I wish I could write like Elspeth. 

Quote from: Dahlia on February 09, 2013, 09:20:06 AM
Fathering children is a firm confirmation of being a fertile cisman...heavy beardgrowth and bodyhair as well...
So I don't understand some things you wrote?

Truth bomb dot com? Lol

Quote from: JLT1 on February 09, 2013, 09:03:50 PM
Finding the cause and dealing with the cause is the other part of the answer.   The unfortunate truth is often that the state of science or medicine is such that we don't always know the cause.  But, in dealing with someone to whom the cause is important, the truth in figuring out why we are the way we are can sometimes be answered more completely than "here are some hormones and just deal with it".  I would also assert that with a cause, someone with a personality type that needs to know a cause may find options not normally thought about.

Unfortunately, your preference for knowing causes is not necessarily relevant to how medicine works. They usually come up with a differential diagnosis (DDx) -- fit symptoms to a probable and generally known condition, and treat from there. If they do the DDx poorly, you wind up with treatment that may be entirely wrong.  It's very rare for MDs or other health care pros to be certain of what condition you have, much less to be certain of causes, as science is a work in progress, and the commonly held conjecture of today may be entirely discredited or very much revised in another 3-6 months.

But to address specifics, since that's what tends to count with getting a proper diagnosis... and keep in mind that I'm not a doctor, don't play one on TV, and my copy of Harrison's is several years out of date, so I won't even try to diagnose someone I've never (to my knowledge) seen.

QuoteI am trying to figure out what is going in in my mind and body for one reason: PAIN.  Physical PAIN.  In August, I cracked three ribs and ripped an 18" gouge down my side.   I had no idea how serious the accident was it was until my wife screamed and pointed at a lot of blood running down my side.  That pain didn't even compare to what I feel every month when my testicles swell and my pelvis feels like I've been shot.   Pain didn't compare.

Because my gender identity is in question, medical doctors don't pay attention to me - even when their own test data shows something is wrong.  I had a series of meetings early yesterday morning, followed by an ugly work day followed by my wife's grandchildren getting here for the weekend.  I forgot to change my estrogen patch and Friday was day 4.  My left testicle was the size of an orange late this morning and into the afternoon and by about 2:00, I almost couldn't move.  Then I remembered and changed the patch.  It's now seven hours later and the swelling is down and it doesn't hurt that bad anymore.  But is identifying me as MTF and putting my testicles to sleep with estrogen so they don't swell and hurt a good thing?  Is being MTF and swollen testicles related?  If so, how? And now we are back to looking for a cause.

This is not something I've heard very often, and I'm not aware of it ever being specifically related to being MTF. It does sound like it could be associated, maybe, with some kind of intersex condition or some other form of infection, growth or probably a long list of other things.

I haven't gone back to read earlier posts... was the swelling something that was happening before you were given estrogen?  I ask because I'm wondering whether something else hormonal is going on... but it's also possible that they haven't pinned down what is causing the swelling... estrogen ought to reduce it, in any case, since it tends to counter much that is active there. Think of it as using a shotgun, or better yet, a spraycan... it hits all sorts of things that might be the cause, but since it coats everything, they may not have pinned down just why the swelling began.

Also, the doctors could be ignoring things for other reasons. Some are just incompetent, or too rushed, or don't hear clearly key things that are said... or you might not have brought up something they would have listened to more closely... Doctors are somewhat trained to conduct history and physical exams, but patients are almost never expert at saying what is relevant in the most efficient manner, and some doctors are less patient with patients than others.

If you have any doubts about their confidence or dedication to your care, you may want to seek a second opinion. A third one if you really have cause to suspect your being given inadequate time and attention.

QuoteIf I find out that I have a biological reason for my being a MTF, I'm using it.  I don't know about anyone else but I know that I will.  Using that as a reason really wouldn't be for me either, it would be for my wife who is really having a problem with this and I think it would help her. 

There are some tentative bits of research that do suggest some physical roots related to certain brain structures. They're still controversial and are likely to remain so for a long time, but more and more studies have come out in the last decade or two that seem fairly suggestive, and perhaps reading some of those would be some comfort to her? The problem is, confirming most of them requires an autopsy, so it's not possible to confirm right now that any individual has these structures, and there are other questions about the finding too that I don't feel qualified to declare an opinion on, since I can only barely understand the medical jargon, and probably misread some significant chunks of it.

Anne Vitale provides a fairly brief summary of her perspectives, which tend to focus on the recent research related to physiological factors.

Unlike the Wikipedia article on causes, which has what amounts to a dumpbin of all the various theories that have been spun out over the years, Vitale's effort seems to look mainly at the physical, to the extent that such research has been done.  I can't be sure it's unbiased. And it does seem to me that many of the older theories should be read very critically, if at all. Wikipedia does have the advantage of listing most of its source material on those theories, however, and you never know when you might run into someone who still subscribes to some of the older notions.

Quote from: JLT1 on February 09, 2013, 09:03:50 PM
I answer "Why" and then I fix the cause as much as possible. 

I am trying to figure out what is going in in my mind and body for one reason: PAIN.  Physical PAIN.  In August, I cracked three ribs and ripped an 18" gouge down my side.   I had no idea how serious the accident was it was until my wife screamed and pointed at a lot of blood running down my side.  That pain didn't even compare to what I feel every month when my testicles swell and my pelvis feels like I've been shot.   Pain didn't compare.

What we are doing here is trying to answer that very question. We know there are many reasons. We know the matter is serious. The best we have so far are ways to take it further.

But there doesn't seem to be a single cause. There isn't a single set of symptoms. there is certainly not a single solution.  There isn't even a single point at which it became evident.

There is just this single problem. That we here are experiencing a serious dysphoria over our gender identity.

As for not feeling pain, that is also a not uncommon symptom. I once cut off the top of my thumb. Again, not sure why.

But I have found there are a number of symptoms and experiences I have in common with others.

Part of me wants to believe it's something physiologicaly wrong with me, because that would justify it all and legitimize me, and make transitioning "okay", even from certain "haters" standpoints.