I am not a social person and the only people I interact with on a regular basis are at work. The two people I talk to most are dudes who are as socially weird as me. So I can't tell if the following is a normal guy thing or just a weird person thing.

Basically if roughhousing is initiated, they escalate it to an unreasonable degree. One of them (guy A) seems to be fond of fake-strangling me. He'll grab my neck and not let go for a while. We went to a BK tonight and he "throttled" me for (unsuccessfully!) blowing a straw wrapper at him. It's uncomfortable because they're bigger than me and I really feel like a wimp when someone's literally got me in a stranglehold. He really had me there for what felt like forever and tightened his fingers around my windpipe before letting me go. He was laughing and joking the whole time. It's bugging the hell out of me to tell the truth. I'm not so concerned about guy B; he actually saw A pretending to choke me once and intervened, then later told me, "Dude, don't let him touch you like that." But I mention B anyway because he too just seems to react extremely in certain circumstances.

So what? Normal or not? Either way I'm not going to let the fake choking continue any more. I'd really appreciate input from MTF's too, if they have been socialized as male and have absorbed the finer details of this type of behavior. Not sure where to go from here.

I would never let anyone touch my neck.  There's a lot that could accidentally go wrong with that.  Learn a few moves to get out of holds like that and next time he does it, put the guy on his butt hard and fast and tell him plainly you don't like people touching your neck (or you could just tell him and he'll probably listen, but that's not as fun).  You definitely won't feel like a wimp anymore.  Or a very easy one to do that'll send the message without putting him on his butt is just cross your middle and index fingers and stick them right in that little indent right at the middle of the base of his throat.  Press in and down (not too hard).  He'll let go quick fast and he won't grab you again.

Usually I like playing rough, which may just be because I'm so use to it having done martial arts classes since I was 8, which means I have people grabbing me, punching me, throwing me, etc all the time and I know how to take it or redirect it safely in most cases.  Sometimes people are a little taken aback by how comfortable I am with people beating on me (in a friendly way.  If anyone actually tried to hurt me, I'd put an end to it as quickly as possible).  That's one of the downsides of still presenting female at work.  Even if, for the most part, they treat me like one of the guys, they still won't let me play this one game they have where they sneak up on each other, yell "UNTAMED!" and double palm strike each other in the chest...  Apparently if they let me play, it'd be sexual harassment...     The guys in my karate class punch me in the chest all the time and the guys in my Judo class wrap their legs around me...  I'm just so used to it I don't see the inappropriateness...

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on February 18, 2013, 08:55:08 AM
That's excessive, you don't want to be mean. He's just playing around.

And that sounds dangerous.

I don't think it's excessive, sure he's just playing around but I've seen guys throw each other around before, and according to the OP the choke goes on for quite a long time, not just for a little bit, and I don't think it is a "pretend choke" if the guy is actually tightening his fingers around the windpipe.  It's probably easier for Devin since he knows martial arts, but I think tvc15 needs to do something to show he can't just be pushed around, even if it's just grabbing the guy's wrist and managing to get him to let go.  Like Devin said, I think it's normal for guys to kind of push each other around, but I don't think choking someone is normal.

some rough housing is normal, but that seems a bit far. the next time he does it, tell him very bluntly "dude, dont ever do that again".

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on February 18, 2013, 08:55:08 AM
That's excessive, you don't want to be mean. He's just playing around.

And that sounds dangerous.

Less dangerous than getting strangled.

I put someone on his back side too many times to remember when he would wind me up and just kept coming back for more, guys just don't seem to think anything of it. I would just knock him down, if you can do it smoothly, and say "Mate, that's too far." if he does it again.

That doesn't seem normal to me at all, and I agree with the others you need to put a stop to it. I'd start with the verbal "dude, knock it off," and if that doesn't work then get physical if necessary. Of course, the problem is that could potentially escalate things. Be prepared as possible, and hopefully Guy B will also intervene.

From my experience and observation, guys don't try to really hurt each other, and respect "rules of the game" generally. Sounds like Guy A has some sort of sadistic fixation that he's "trying out." Ugh, gives me the willies just reading your post. Stop it, pronto.

The only thing I'm concerned about is if I retaliate physically, what if he just takes it further? I've had great success with guy B with simply telling him not to do certain things, and he'll comply right away and respectfully. But any time I ever say it physically it doesn't send a message. So I think it'd be dangerous to literally fight back in this instance. I'll just do what chuck suggested. But in the meantime I will figure out ways to get myself out of chokeholds.

You could just ask him, "Hey dude why do you always take it up to 11? Chill a bit"  to try to avoid having another physical confrontation before it happens again.

Well, you have one clear advantage. If all else fails, you can knee him in the balls or grab hard and squeeze threateningly. He'll probably stop right away. But I've never seen a guy do that to a guy.

Actually in the book, the Testosterone files, the guy talks about the increased tendency towards violence and the guy in "Just Add Hormones" doesn't. I'm guessing it might be age and social position (I think the guy in Add Hormones is much older). I don't think it sounds appropriate, esp something involving chokeholds.

I took karate in my 20s. Guys were NOT allowed to use any martial arts techniques for anything but sparring that was in a controlled setting- which meant equipment (cup), timer, and rules. You could get quite a few push-ups from our ex-Marine sensei for "messing around". And really not a lot of guys did it (there anyway). I had many guy friends at the dojo. But I presented female then.

BTW, there are a few ways to nonviolently get out of someone doing a chokehold, which you might look up online (I'd suggest youtube). I have learned a few of them, and I think they'd be useful. Definitely do NOT allow this.
You can also do what spacerace suggests. I like that idea actually.

--Jay

He's testing your limits and overall manlyness.  I'd put a stop to it right away, however you can.  If you could overpower him that would be the best option.  Otherwise tell him firmly to leave you alone.  Do not do it apologetically. 

As for guys, I've been around different types and they act different.  The ones I'm currently hanging out with now seemed to be made out of marshmallow.  Yesterday we were playfully hitting each other with padded sticks, see avatar picture, and a guy slipped on ice and fell down.  He limped off the field in pain and we all had to stop because somebody fell.  It was a huge difference from what I was use to.  Also another guy got all pissy because I hit him with a nerf dart on his upper thigh and it was to close to his groin for his liking.  I was a good 25 feet away.  At that distance you more see then feel when someone 'gets' you as the dart is so light.   

Back in Chicago if I was battling with friends, if someone fell they immediately jumped right back up and finished the fight.  It wouldn't matter the foot was literally falling off.  Finish the fight.  I've 'fought' with blood streaming out of my nose and my eyes watering so much I couldn't see from the pain.  Still I carried on because you never stop until there is a clear victor.  This is only 'play' fighting as well. 

So I suppose it depends on the group of guys.  The ones you are dealing with seem rough so I would treat them rough back.  The last thing you want is to be cast in the role as the 'whipping boy'.  That does a number on your reputation for years and years.         

Hum... I am finding this a strange thread... and feeling a strong urge to say things about it.

I think, all I will say is please don't think the worst stereotypes of male behavior are what it is to be a man or that you need to participate in them to be accepted as a man. Be a better man.

If you didn't think it was acceptable for people to 'play' strangle you when you were living as a woman there is no reason why you should think it's acceptable when living as a man.

I'm not going to speculate about the best way to solve the problem as I don't know how old you are, the environment you're living in, the people you are dealing with or anything about you. I agree though that you need to put a stop to it straight away and also don't put yourself in a position where people can 'play' strangle you in the first place.

Good luck!

These guys are rough but not tough. B is a self-proclaimed proud beta-male... for crying out loud! I can actually take it and dish it out with the best of them and have no trouble with it; I enjoy it as a matter of fact, it comes naturally. But the strangling seemed to be more than that--just too far. That's why I posted here to find out if guys regularly went "that far." Bloody noses, fine. I can deal with that. Strangling though--that could easily go wrong, real fast, and it doesn't allow me an equal fighting chance. I honestly think this is just one of A's weird things I have to break him of.

I'm 20 and work at a restaurant. It gets rowdy. I have no problem with it.

Quote from: tvc15 on February 18, 2013, 04:03:02 PM
These guys are rough but not tough. B is a self-proclaimed proud beta-male... for crying out loud! I can actually take it and dish it out with the best of them and have no trouble with it; I enjoy it as a matter of fact, it comes naturally. But the strangling seemed to be more than that--just too far. That's why I posted here to find out if guys regularly went "that far." Bloody noses, fine. I can deal with that. Strangling though--that could easily go wrong, real fast, and it doesn't allow me an equal fighting chance. I honestly think this is just one of A's weird things I have to break him of.

I'm 20 and work at a restaurant. It gets rowdy. I have no problem with it.

I think all I can do is answer one of the questions in your original post: Is it normal / acceptable? Not in my opinion. As someone who has grown up as male (all be it an arguably unconventional one!) I wouldn't personally find any of the things you are describing to be acceptable or normal and I can't think of any of my male friends who would. That said, obviously I know it is normal in some circles. I wouldn't consider it acceptable though and would aspire to be better than that.

We have probably had very different lives and you are probably rougher and tougher than I am... I am almost 40 and haven't had to deal with the type of behavior you are talking about since childhood... and childhood rules don't necessarily apply to adulthood... I definitely think you need to make sure it's clear you aren't going to be pushed around. How best to do that, I think you will know much better than I will.

...If it was me I'd want new friends, but then I'm a complete pacifist who never liked any of that 'roughhousing' stuff... maybe we need to import a 'proper' 'macho' man from somewhere to answer your question, lol. [in case it's not clear and to avoid confusion I'm using 'proper' there in reference to myself not you, by the way!]

I've never cared much for rough-housing... it seems a bit slap-stick to me, but Guy A is very seriously out of line.

I really don't see how a good kick to his crotch would be any less playful than his choking.

(I don't actually advocate kicking him... but his "rough-housing" sounds excessive...)

Stomp on his foot and when he let's go put him in a wrist lock. You don't have to be big and strong for it to work and he'll think twice before doing it again

That sounds like it could easily be building into something else, whether on you or someone else. I'd say end it real quick. Real playing, in my experience, mainly involves hitting and wrestling and yes, even neck locks but not temporary strangling.

Some others have already had their say but I felt like adding my two cents as I feel this is extremely unacceptable. I'm pretty sure if any cis-guy tried to throttled another cis-guy he'd be punched in the face or it would get nasty very fast.

Keep this in mind, some people (and I mean only a handful) who show this kind of behavior could either be sadistic in nature or be unaware they are sadistic (and I don't mean cut you open and laugh as you bleed, there's mild levels of sadism as well) and if he happens to be either, though more-so the latter, he may one day have his hands around you and not stop because he gets too caught up in it. Then you are in serious danger and if guy B isn't around to yell at him, and you've never established boundaries, trying to stop him might turn very very ugly.

It's kind of different but I work on occasion with metally disabled invidiuals and I remember this one man, he would touch my arm (I didn't pass back then at all) and 'flirt' at me. When one of my co-workers noticed they came up to me and told me never to let him touch me. Just the seriousness in her voice made me aware that it was much more than just touching my shoulder or hand and since then i've always been a bit leery about people who I don't know touching me.

Me and my boyfriend, even before he was my boyfriend, would roughhouse and I really enjoy it. I like to test my strength against him, he's bigger than me and made of muscle so I find it very satisfying when I 'win'. But I know that if he ever told me to stop, or if I ever told him to stop, that it would stop. I NEVER feel endangered. I also have a rule, and it's a rule across many practices (BDSM for example) that no one is to ever cause physical harm to your face. You can extend that to your neck too. No one should EVER go anywhere near your face in a threatening manner. If someone punches you in the face you have every right to curb-stop them in my humble opinion.

I also know from an experience that I don't want to get into, how fast someone can go into the red zone. It has been described to me as "you don't know sense, you don't know what your doing is wrong, you're just focused on the goal. You forget your own strength and you can do terrible things before you feel satisfied enough to come out of it."

So please, please for your safety, next time he goes for you, make sure you are somewhere where there are people who, if they saw someone being assaulted, they would either call 911 or intervene, and tell him NO. Established that you do not like being throttled and he is not to touch you aggressively (or ever, if you want) again. If and when he backs down and says ok, go on like it never happened. You have to let things go, excuse the silliness of this sentence, but you've disciplined him, and now you need to revert back to normal and if he does it again, warn him again. If he does it a third time, stop hanging out with him until he's ready to treat you with respect.

I never understood this type of stuff, it makes me uncomfortable. I would tell them or more likely, I would personally just avoid that person.

All right, some really insightful replies here. Me and this dude have hit it off really well and we've been known to sit in the parking lot for 3 hours after work just talking. He's what I would consider an actual friend because we hang out outside of work quite often. But let's just say that since I know him decently enough, and based off what you guys have said, I definitely need to set my boundaries straight away.