QuoteBritain's most senior Roman Catholic cleric, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, is stepping down as the Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh.

It follows allegations - which he contests - of inappropriate behaviour towards priests dating from the 1980s.

The Vatican is expected to confirm Pope Benedict has accepted his resignation.

The cardinal is not now expected to take part in the election for a successor to the Pope - leaving Britain unrepresented in the election.

Cardinal O'Brien missed celebrating Sunday Mass in St Mary's Cathedral in Edinburgh, which marked Pope Benedict's eight years in office, ahead of the pontiff stepping down this week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21572724

Once again, I post this not to criticise this particular body. The positions it takes on some issues, which we, as the transgender community, may feel most aggrieved at, are shared by many other, competing religious groups. The freedom to practice your chosen faith is an aspect of self expression.

I make this post simply because the issue has arisen.

This is important because this man, in particular, has been most vocal in opposing marriage equality. He has equally been outspoken in his negative and somewhat patronising criticisism of homosexuality.

The truth of these allegations is yet to be determined. It is utterly unacceptable for us, of  all groups, to cast any accusations or presumptions in this matter.

But the significance is that the Church of Scotland, Presbyterian, and the Roman Catholic Churches are very powerful in Scotland. Until 1999, they were the principal voice of ordinary people  in government, having assumed these positions after the 1707 union which effectively limited direct democracy in Scotland. Neither institution has been particularly willing to abandon their status after 1999. The RCs in particular, have remained very vocal.

More importantly, while the CofS has continued as an essentially liberal institution, especially regarding marriage equality, sex equality and, latterly, homosexuality, the RCs in Scotland have not. In soe recent claims the RCs in Scotland have suggested that the Scottish Government will become a fascist government if it 'legalises gay marriage'.

With the departure of this man, the stance of the RCs in the British Isles goes into flux. At the same tome as it chooses a new overall leader.

May we all live in interesting times!!

Interesting indeed.
In a general reference and not to this person. He is yet to be 'judged'


I'm sure I'm not alone in noticing that some public figures who have strident opposition to homosexuality are themselves homosexual.

I feel sorry for them

I feel more sorry for the those who have suffered from their cruelty in denial arising from their personal failure

Every skin flake rubbed from the rope, every drop of blood from the knife, every bone fragment from the bullet and every taste of vomit from the overdose can be theirs for eternity.

I feel sorry for them but I care not for them.

I also feel for them Cindy, in much the same way.

But I feel more for those who have followed these people. This is the problem with setting yourself up to higher standards.

Increasingly numbers, including those faithful  gay Catholics who have effectively found themselves being all but excommunicated, not to mention their supporters, will be wondering where they are to go now.

In the last 50 years alone, the RCs have alienated so many, Contraception, abortion, female equality, liberation theology, homosexuality, marriage equality. O'Brien was, himself, seemingly pushed into altering his own approach to the latest. That this has arisen at this time is a bit difficult to see as simply a co-incidence.

I know, from my time in the W of Scotland, that many in the Orange Community see the RCs as little more than a manipulative political group, in much the same way as some paranoid ideas were being expressed about the CIA/FBI/Police were in the late 60s.

The current rapprochement with Africa and the doctrinal compromises being made, especially in relation to views on Homosexuality and transgender, can't be particularly helpful in the long term.

Many will be feeling cast out. I hope the RCs feel it has all been worth it.

WARNING THIS POST CONTAINS MATURE DEBATE ON RELIGION. YOU ARE WELCOME TO JOIN BUT BE WARNED THIS IS MATURE DEBATE AND PEOPLE'S OPINIONS ARE RESPECTED BUT QUESTIONED.

Jill, as ever your perception is deep.
- (which by the way I am so happy to see returned, I know you understand that comment  )-


I'm one of those who is a little lost in these debates. I'm not sure if it is my ignorance or my lack of need to believe in abstract religious comments as boundaries to my life.

I think it is the later so I have to be careful in argument so as not to be unsympathetic. I fail to see the whole conglomerate of why people require religion of any sort to give them permission to live.

So I have terrible problems with understanding peoples frustrations at the commands of  religions that they chose for some reason. Maybe, and I suspect this may have truth, most people don't think. religion is followed by a family inheritance. 'We have always been XXXX and god and its thingies will damn you if you change' attitude.

I have never had that and I find it hard to get my mind into that view point. I fact I lie, I find it impossible to get my mind into that.

My Dad was a Roman Catholic Priest by special dispensation from a Pope, but he still taught me to think even if my soul was lost.

So why are people frustrated by meaningless crap from self centred religious authorities?

It is no great secret that the RC Church has been intellectually defunct for a very long time. And that internal politics and 'problems of sexuality' have been rife for decades.

Why are people concerned about the RC alienating them?

Is this due to the individuals lack of Faith? Their God is still valid even if their leaders are 'troubled' if they have faith in their belief and God why cannot they follow it?

I'm a little lost!

As you know I walk my path and accept my failings but I also accept my beliefs and defend them. If they are demonstrated to be incorrect I can grow them, they grow me.

Why don't these poor lost 'souls' do the same?

Sorry for getting away from the original post but I found your thoughts interesting

C

Hi Cindy.
I think you points are very pertinent to the thread. The issue is the way these groups, treat their participants.

I more or less agree with you and certainly understand your points. Indeed I struggled for many years with the principal and the various ideas.

Here in the UK, the position, generally, tend to swing from the Orthopraxy of Islam and Hinduism, to the compartmentalism of  the Anglicans/Episcopalians or the self satisfaction of the atheists. But the importance of these religions, especially in Scotland and Ireland is enormous.

The existence of religion in the modern era demonstrate that, as humans, we need guidelines. We need a measure by which we can judge ourselves and hopefully find our selves favorable.

I initially thought it was about hope. But of those that teach an afterlife, their followers almost invariably tend to see others as loosing out. They tend to each believe they will succeed.

That's important. Because it demonstrates why, effectively excommunicating an entire section of, otherwise, decent, good people is so utterly hurtful.

When Cardinal Ratzinger condemned Liberation Theology in the 1980s, seemingly in deference to the then US government, while continuing to encourage not dissimilar resistance in the Soviet Union and elsewhere, it seems to have created, (or did it simply highlight), huge numbers of disaffected former faithful.

Now I have spent a lot of time looking at the practices of the majority of proselytistic groups and in every case, they work the same way. They find weaknesses, contradictions, in the existing belief systems and seek to slowly undermine these, all the time, suggesting theirs is an alternative.

As communities are steadily alienated by the likes of the RCs, as and when they become inconvenient to whatever the current objective is, they become prey for those that seek to offer alternatives.

Gays and transgender people are being abandoned by the RCs. They are increasingly being made to feel that their very existence is shameful. Some will accept oppression, most I suspect won't. For them, they will seek alternatives.

There is a very real risk that they could become easy meat to those equally condeming of homosexuality, but more forgiving of past behaviour.

I just feel we need to reach out and tell those who have been treated in these way, they don't need to feel alone.

I'm going to save time consider him guilty till proven inno..... well in his slightly less guilty might be more accurate
What that's unfair and biased, why so it is. and do you have a problem with that, whatever he's done he's guilty of being Cardinal Keith O'Brien
The  upper echelons of the Catholic Church have shown themselves to be a corrupt and morally bankrupt group more concerned for covering up scandals and crimes of their priests who are increasingly out of touch with anyone not them preaching old and outmoded beliefs to people who increasingly see it as the total BS it is.