Quote from: Tristan on March 17, 2013, 08:20:31 PM
i have to agree with you. its not just about liking guys. but when they see you as a woman and attractive you know you pass. which means you dont have to worry about some drunk hill billy or thug hurting you for being TS/TG. it embarrasses me to say it but i know for a fact that people of my skin tone tend to be violent towards people like TS/TG folk.

Exactly

I think a lot of this has to do with how one was raised, and one's culture. Many people were raised in an era or place when women were expected to stay at home by the phone and wait for that magical prince to find them.

I was raised by a tribe of amazon women (though it was only late in life that I came out officially as a daughter/sister) and every woman in my family would laugh their head off at the question.
Because women in my family are not passive when it comes to romance, or anything else in life.
We give romantic attention, and we expect to receive it in return. And if we aren't getting our needs met, we speak up and take action and make things better. Straight out of the jungle!

I had a hard time with my own passivity when I was trapped in a boy mask, but since I dropped the mask I also dropped the passive tense.

I think any man or woman who is part of a small population that is spread out geographically (genius? transgender? gay? lesbian? accordion player?) needs to put away passivity and work hard at connecting with like-minded and love-likely candidates.

Right now, I have all the romantic attention I can handle and am happy with, but if I need more, the world is my oyster bed. I just have to go out and make it. But wait around hoping for it to appear? No.
Or trade my voice for a pair of perfect legs like the little mermaid did so that she could passively attract a guy who couldn't love her the way she really was? LOL no. She didn't need to make herself cislegged. She just needed to meet better men.

Could there be a time that I want no romantic attention? Sure. Everybody needs a break some times.

Thanks for all the responses It's interesting to read so many varying opinions.

Madeline, it does vary a lot across cultures I guess. I can tell you that where I live, if you are a woman and show any inclination of wishing for male attention in any enviornment, you will be laughed out of there. And that is personal experience, and not only mine. Men go up to those who they like. There is an abundance of Russian men here and they can be downright nasty if you step over that line, because it is their job to take their pick of who they show romantic attention to and those girls will be treated well and with respect. Other girls are ignored.

It doesn't even seem to be a matter of shyness, or what kind of community it is. From high school to university to hobby group to nightclub the status quo is upheld.

And it's not considered socially acceptable to talk about feeling unwanted or even about the fact that you are unwanted. The only issue the women here care to discuss is which men to take and which to toss. If you don't get complimentary attention and are unhappy with it your own gender considers you a pariah.

I guess romantic loneliness is not a topic anyone anywhere wants to discuss, though, making it even worse for those of us who experience it.

MS.Obrien, I really don't think you can compare having a pet or a child for that matter to having a romantic partner. Romantic love comes with the kind of support and validation you simply cannot get from a creature dependent on you for their basic needs. Or, you can get, but it's incredibly immoral and illegal

Would I be genuinely happy? Maybe not. I don't know. Since I've had a relationship, I've begun to think that I'll need love to be happy.

But I would certainly be happier than now. And I would have the prerequisite for being happy: being myself. That's already a big plus. And if I can manage to make friends one day, who knows, perhaps I can find a lot of happiness in friendship.

Not to mention that if I knew that if I managed to get FFS/whatever at some point, or if I found someone who really loved me despite appearance (or with it, who knows, there are all kinds of tastes), I could actually live love without feeling awful about it, that would be a huge plus.

As male, I could never, ever, be in a relationship. The only reason I've had one is because it was a long-distance one (of course, it wasn't supposed to stay as one, but sadly, she fell out of love), which allowed me to fall in love without feeling awful about myself, and because my girlfriend was truly understanding, gentle and respectful. And above all, she saw me as her girlfriend, nothing else.

If the fact of being in a relationship means to be a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend, it becomes a possibility. And that's a huge plus, as well.

Quote from: Paige H on March 18, 2013, 08:12:39 AM
Thanks for all the responses It's interesting to read so many varying opinions.

Madeline, it does vary a lot across cultures I guess. I can tell you that where I live, if you are a woman and show any inclination of wishing for male attention in any enviornment, you will be laughed out of there. And that is personal experience, and not only mine. Men go up to those who they like. There is an abundance of Russian men here and they can be downright nasty if you step over that line, because it is their job to take their pick of who they show romantic attention to and those girls will be treated well and with respect. Other girls are ignored.

It doesn't even seem to be a matter of shyness, or what kind of community it is. From high school to university to hobby group to nightclub the status quo is upheld.

And it's not considered socially acceptable to talk about feeling unwanted or even about the fact that you are unwanted. The only issue the women here care to discuss is which men to take and which to toss. If you don't get complimentary attention and are unhappy with it your own gender considers you a pariah.

I guess romantic loneliness is not a topic anyone anywhere wants to discuss, though, making it even worse for those of us who experience it.

That would be very rough. Feminism hasn't changed every society, or every aspect of every society, equally, and there are many places where boy-girl courtship rules are still in the stone age.
I grew up in a culture like that, and I can tell you it wasn't fun even on the guy side, for the nice / less aggressive / less controlling guys. I think even though I live in a progressive place now, that is one of the reasons I avoid dating straight men, because the boy-girl courtship dynamic still has a lot to be desired for my age group. Things are much more balanced on the gayer side of courtship. 

Trans women are at a real disadvantage in any traditionalist courtship market because we tend to lack decades of socialization and practice in the subtle techniques which equalize the courtship power between the sexes.
There are ciswomen who are not typical in looks or background but who have the personality and have developed the skills to manipulate men into falling over themselves to get to know them. In traditionalist places, those skills are still absolutely necessary unless you were born drop dead gorgeous.
More remarkable to watch are transwomen who have the innate personality or skill to overcome the lack of years of training, and still twirl men around their little finger. But it is a studiable and masterable skill.

I was very unhappy in my 20s when I could never find a girl who could appreciate me, and I think that is one of the reasons my first marriage was to someone who didn't really like that much. My heart goes out to everyone, male and female, who feels stuck in a courtship land that doesn't make it easy to find the love they deserve.

I avoided posting here because I wasn't sure how to say this.  So simple is best.

I'll never be pretty or have romance , but as long as I have a few close friends and relatives that use my name and properly gender me I'll be a very happy woman.   I do give my sons a pass on everything I just said, because we love each other and they want to call me Dad instead of Kathy.   

K

I'd still rather be an unattractive/ugly woman than a handsome guy.

.

Quote from: muuu on March 18, 2013, 11:20:44 AM
It's assuming you're passing, and how you would feel if nobody found you attractive.

Talk to older/elderly MTF....usually they're passable and have become invisible ...for romance, being attractive etc.

I personaly know one MTF in her late thirties who is very passable but very plain to look at.
No romance, no nothing,  but she's very pleased with her quiet passable as a woman life.

"Would you still be happy as a woman who doesn't get romantic attention?"

Yep  yep yep!!!!    I've spent enough time doing the give and take thats required and have had enough of the slow loss of ones trueself that comes with it. For some I know that is acceptable and great; I'm done with it!  I no longer will put aside or mute my likes,dislikes,passions and dreams to any degree for someone that is not family. I come as is.. take it or leave it and I'm not looking.   

Not a woman, but I knew going in that I'd probably end up a lot less attractive as a short trans dude than I was as a woman. And that's true conventionally, anyway. Somehow women find me attractive anyway. Not sure how happy that makes me because they usually think I'm a cis dude, so I usually don't pursue it.
But yes, I did transition expecting that love and sex would be far less easy. I think most of us do. Male or female transitioners, we all know that our dating pool will be different and smaller. There will be people who don't want us no matter how attractive we are simply because we're trans.

I do think it's different for those of us who have already had plenty of love/sex etc in our lives. Like Kuan Yin, I've been there, done that, had enough for several lifetimes, so anything more is just (a very welcome) surplus.

Though I suppose if nobody found me attractive as a man, it could get to me after awhile. But that's a human issue, not a male or female or trans issue. Nobody wants to feel unwanted.

Quote from: Dahlia on March 18, 2013, 12:09:55 PM
Talk to older/elderly MTF....usually they're passable and have become invisible ...for romance, being attractive etc.

I personaly know one MTF in her late thirties who is very passable but very plain to look at.
No romance, no nothing,  but she's very pleased with her quiet passable as a woman life.

well, if your friend ever gets the urge for more romance she could always put on some makeup. yes? i think most people don't want to be alone.

Quote from: muuu on March 18, 2013, 11:20:44 AM
Well... we're not talking about if you rather be a man or a woman who nobody finds attractive.
It's assuming you're passing, and how you would feel if nobody found you attractive.

Quote from: Dahlia on March 18, 2013, 12:09:55 PM
Talk to older/elderly MTF....usually they're passable and have become invisible ...for romance, being attractive etc.

I personaly know one MTF in her late thirties who is very passable but very plain to look at.
No romance, no nothing,  but she's very pleased with her quiet passable as a woman life.

At almost 62 I be happy with a few close friends and relatives as I said before.  And I'm already happier than last year at this time.  My wife and I are still together for now, and theres no romance.  Weather we stay together or not things won't change, and I'm still happy.

Kathy

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 18, 2013, 01:46:33 PM
well, if your friend ever gets the urge for more romance she could always put on some makeup. yes? i think most people don't want to be alone.

She DOES use make up. 'Plain'  sounds nicer than 'unattractive', don't you think so?

Yeah lol plain does sound a lot better when I think of it I just think of a kind of a plain woman sans make up. 

Yes, I was happy as a woman who got no romantic attention.

But I'm far happier as a woman who does.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 18, 2013, 01:46:33 PM
well, if your friend ever gets the urge for more romance she could always put on some makeup. yes? i think most people don't want to be alone.

Makeup? Really? Stereotype much?

well she said plain so that's the impression I got. it was a suggestion. yeah girls never wear makeup i'm totally making a stereotype i guess that's why the cosmetics industry is in such bad bad shape. i knew i'd get snapped at too for making the suggestion. i'll never understand the animosity towards it on a MTF TS forum. if there was one place i thought i could be myself without reproach you'd think it would be here.

During my initial transition I would have said no I did not need a romantic relationship. In part from leaving a terrible marriage before transition and never wanting go through such a situation again. I, however, got to the point of wanting what every other woman seemed to have, a deep romantic connection with someone. It became such a desire in me and I think I would have felt incomplete as a woman without such a relationship in my life, which I don't think my friends would have ever been able to fulfill. My relationship in many ways helps define my womanhood and validates my femininity. I would not be happy and would have continued to feel there was something missing.

I guess it's not really something I thought about much pre-transition. I'd already decided that I couldn't handle relationships with the body I had then, so it wasn't like I could make my romantic situation worse. And being told that I was attractive in that body was pretty miserable.

But post-transition, I still have a very hard time perceiving myself as attractive or desirable, so, yes, it certainly helps my self-esteem issues to have other people telling me that I am. And, ya, the appearance of my body is pretty important to me. I've put in a lot of effort, and continue to put in a lot of effort to craft it into something beautiful. I also have a girlfriend that I really, really like.

I think transition was the reverse for me. I didn't make an ugly boy, but I'm far more attractive as a girl. And I also have a far more attractive personality when I'm not miserable. I made for a fairly bland intellectual boy. I'm a pretty charming, clever and unusual queer girl. So, ya. Sometimes things work out?

I think I'd be less happy. I don't know if that would mean I'd be unhappy.

I didn't get married until I was 40.  Most of the time prior to that, I didn't have much in the way of romance.  I was OK.  I will be better now as a woman than I was then as a man.

There are some nice things about not being in a serious and constant relationship.  However, there are some very nice things about having someone there who loves you. 

My wife is still with me.  I would prefer she doesn't leave but if she does, I'll understand.  And if she leaves, I will be alone for a while and then, I would start trying to find someone again.