Quote from: BearGuy on March 25, 2013, 01:11:36 AM

I try to put some points into this

Every transsexual that begins the process of transition has a SIGNIFICANTLY shorter life.

(1) the sucide rate is hight amount transgenders, who have to fight for being themself or been denyed.

(2)due to depression alot of transgenders gain serious problem as alcohol addiction, or other things which make your life shorter.

(3) transgender is one of the minoritys who is most exposed for hatecrimes

whatever homones has an effect or not I belive those to be the main cause while transgenders in general has shorter life, transition or not. it also important to notice that transgender who transition and dont pass are in a danger zone who isnt like being cis. In guatamala ex its rare for transgenders to be more than 35 because because of hatecrime rate.
--
Sooner or later, they will stop, and degenerative diseases begin. You CANNOT run from it. There is 100% chance that something will develop.

yes, but this is an general thing, I dont know any humans on earth who haven't got something sooner or later,
and in the end we all die.


Right now, because you are 4 months on T, you CAN force yourself to change your mind. Yes, you may feel horrible and develop depression forcing yourself to be a girl/woman even though your image is entirely different, but trust me, it will be MUCH, MUCH easier to live with than dealing with physical illnesses in the future.

yes, in general its MUCH MUCH easier to be cisgender in a cisnormative sociaty, than transgender. thats just how it is.

You will save tragedies from happening, for yourself and for the people that love you.
if your cis you wont have to deal with peoples ignorance and the tragedies who can be following.

You will become sterile,
yes,

and while you are 18, it doesn't sound that bad; but in 20-30 years, you will be ripping your hair off of your head screaming in agony because what is done is done. It's irreversible.
wow we got an wizard here, he can look into the future..

Do not go against biology, because if you take the decision to, you are signing a contract with inevitable disease, pain, and a terrible death. again, I have to comment on guatamala and other countrys..
I dont know where he got this provement from, even if I seen that it wrotte that homones might/might not cause this or that.. (ex cancer) the only place I seen it decribe ->-bleeped-<- causing painfull and terrible deaths have been for the transgender day, where I needed to notice all the killings, and sadly alot of those who are being killed are killed very brutally and very likely had a painfull death.

You have to understand you won't be able to have a family
this is just not true.. while it can be difficult bioligically, and while many countrys deny transfolks to have kids or are sceptical about it, theres many transpeople who still have kids and famelys.

you won't be able to satisfy sexually a woman,
well not to sound full of myself but I know how womens body works, and what feels good, I experiece it on my own body preT so why would I be worse? because I dont have a d**k, well,, I can get one in any size or colour, with spinning or vibration, try do that with your penis.

you won't be able to have children (and that is what women want the most)
again.. this is not true.. and who said every woman wants children?

It's harming your own body and setting yourself up for the worst that can possibly be.
this one is funny,

I dont know if I have mention this before but in my country skittles been illigal,
why? because its harmning your body, on the other hand I can drink alcohol being 16 or 18, people say its bad, cause its harming me.. well.. yes.. alcohol IS not healthy, neither is skittels, Mac donalds, or something so innocent as toast.
toast actually causes more death than sharks each year, while fastfood causes 40,000 death each year in UK only worldwide this is 150,000 death each day.
and cigerats who is legal is diffrently very unhealthy as well .

if we really are to attack homones, who for most transgender folks actually make your life better then why not go the whole way and attack what really causes illness, and deaths all over the world?. but no we dont wanna do that cause burger taste too good so its better to just attact homones when you dont take it right?

for me homones is medicin, both me my dad and mom have taking it for felling better and healthy,
its used for cisgenders for diffrent reasons and have been for a long period and it got the same kind of etic as every other medicin, take it if you feel better, dont take it if you don't, and make sure to take it in a good amount.

by that I would say T have made me healthyer than before. preT I was very ill and depressing, and I took alot of pain killing medicin and tried to commit suicide. I didnt belive me to be over 20, now I expect to be around 40 at least, even when I dont wanna put an age on how long I live, as Stella says we really can't measure our lifetime so we just have to try live in the moment and around.

"You will become sterile, and while you are 18, it doesn't sound that bad; but in 20-30 years, you will be ripping your hair off of your head screaming in agony because what is done is done."

Pfft, that shows how little HE knows. EVERYONE knows that all trans guys go bald after a couple of years on T. How can you rip off what's already gone??!?!?11?!?


/sarcasm

That just sound like complete and utter bull.  Actually, a lot of it is complete and utter bull.

Quote from: BearGuy on March 25, 2013, 01:11:36 AM
I'm in shock right now and just...I don't know what to think.
My parents' friend came to live with us for a week for vacation, who is a surgeon, urologist, and naturopath. He's a well-known doctor. Tonight he wanted to talk to me about my shots that I am taking; he is very open-minded and treats me like a man and everything. He started telling me everything on a very medical and scientific level, about hormones and receptors and stuff like that...female and male metabolisms and how they are different, etc. I'll try to summarize...

Are your parents supporting?  The cynical part of me is thinking that if they're not this might be some sort of ploy to get you to stop transitioning.  Or they might genuinely believe him and are concerned for you.  But whatever, I wouldn't trust him just because he's a "well-known doctor", well known doctors used to believe that leeches were the cure for everything because it was all causes by bad blood, but this obviously isn't the case.  Just because someone's well known it doesn't mean that they're right, or that they're not letting their prejudices rule their head.

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Every transsexual that begins the process of transition has a SIGNIFICANTLY shorter life. Because of hormones, death happens 30-40 years earlier. You cannot fight biology. Right now, while you are still young, your body's cells are able to fight the testosterone and live with it at the same time. Sooner or later, they will stop, and degenerative diseases begin.

Did he offer any sort of medical evidence backing this up?  Because it's just his word against every other doctor who prescribes HRT that doesn't have any qualms about prescribing people T because they're going to drop down dead, writhing in agony, in a relatively short space of time.  I'm not sure I buy into this whole "body's cells can fight T" thing either, T is a natural thing to have in your body, even for a cis woman, so it doesn't make sense for your body to fight it at all.  Maybe if he was talking pills and your liver's ability to cope then I would believe it, but as for what he's saying then no, I don't believe a word of it.  I've never heard of a degenerative disease caused by T, in either cis or trans people.  Or one caused by E for that matter, it seems to be more of a lack of sex hormones that make problems.

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You CANNOT run from it. There is 100% chance that something will develop; taking blood tests every 3 months does not mean a thing. When a test actually shows something abnormal, then it is too late.

So doctors are just signing their patients up for a death contract then?  Some how I don't think that's going to happen without someone investigating, even if they are all only doing it to shut the tr*nnies up or something.  People love to rumour monger, and this sort of thing would have got around before now if it was fact.  And while blood tests might not catch everything, because they don't always test for everything, if you go in to get your T levels tested they're not going to be looking to pick up arthritis, or whether you've been smoking certain herbal products.  We can't reduce every risk, because there is one, we're messing with our bodies natural chemistry, but we can reduce it a lot through these blood tests and making sure that our levels stay in the range for a human body.  Unless the problem is coming from what the T is suspended in -- which I doubt because there are a few different oils that are used, plus creams and gels, so they can't all be killers -- he's saying that our bodies hate sex hormones.  Clearly they don't.

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Right now, because you are 4 months on T, you CAN force yourself to change your mind. Yes, you may feel horrible and develop depression forcing yourself to be a girl/woman even though your image is entirely different, but trust me, it will be MUCH, MUCH easier to live with than dealing with physical illnesses in the future.

Really?  Really??  Depression is not something that is easy to live with.  You can't just brush it off like that.  No way.  I don't care if you're quoting what this blokes said, it's pretty insensitive to just say that as if it's nothing, especially when a fair proportion of your audience has suffered with it at some degree in their lives.  And as pretty much everyone else has said, it would be much easier to live for a short while as male than as female, or vice versa for the ladies.  Part of the only reason I'm still going is because I know that in the future I will be on hormones.  Take that away from me and I won't be able to see a future image of myself, so what good does it do to know that I'll have a better chance of being alive then?  It's just setting myself up for a longer incarceration in this body.

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You will save tragedies from happening, for yourself and for the people that love you. You will become sterile, and while you are 18, it doesn't sound that bad; but in 20-30 years, you will be ripping your hair off of your head screaming in agony because what is done is done. It's irreversible. Do not go against biology, because if you take the decision to, you are signing a contract with inevitable disease, pain, and a terrible death. While you are young, everything is okay. Your body is strong, no significant changes have occurred, and everything seems to be filled with positivity.

Same as above really.  Although I would like to know what this "inevitable disease, pain and a terrible death" is.  Bubonic plague, perhaps?  Because there are tons of degenerative diseases, which to be honest, we're likely to get anyway because the human body isn't really designed to live as long as they do these days with modern medicine.  Only recently has the life expectancy leapt up, and we've just not evolved quick enough to keep up.  The number of people I hear about with Alzheimer's, Dementia, Osteoporosis or having hip replacements is crazy, and it's just going to keep increasing, because people keep living longer, and keep needing care because they're bodies are slowly falling apart.  Unless some trauma happens, or we catch some nasty disease, the majority of us will probably end up dying like this, with or without HRT, and I dunno about you, but I'd rather enjoy my life instead of trying to prolong the inevitable in misery.

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You have to understand you won't be able to have a family; you won't be able to satisfy sexually a woman, you won't be able to have children (and that is what women want the most), and of course, inevitable degenerative diseases that are irreversible. I want all the best for you, and I firmly respect your decision and I believe how hard it is, but you can change your mind while it's not too late. It's harming your own body and setting yourself up for the worst that can possibly be.

I can have a family.  Just because they won't be biologically mine doesn't matter.  Biology is not a pre-requisite for love, and nor does it make love certain.  And seriously, go ask my girlfriend, because I can sexually satisfy her.  He sounds like a homophobic prick who thinks that women need a penis in their life to be happy by this remark actually, not an open minded person.  It's all bull, and it's all being spouted by someone who claims to care.  Just don't listen to his rubbish, and report him to the equivilent of the GMC in your country if he's saying this stuff to other people as well.

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With his level of knowledge, I don't know what to think right now. For the first time in my life, I feel the happiest I ever did. I feel the freest. I feel endless possibilities, I feel like I can live my life how it was meant to be lived. I cannot go against my decision now. I cannot imagine ever going back to what I had to deal with before. I just changed my name legally, and beginning to make friends, go to college as a man, do everything I ever wanted to do. I'm living THE life I wanted. So now it's go against all of that to save 30-40 years of my life.   

Think, "He's a tosser, I'm going to go out and enjoy myself as the man I am and forget about all of his bull.  And if I'm still worried by the next time I see my therapist/doctor/whatever, I'll see if they've ever heard anything so ridiculous as this."

Quote from: AlexanderC on March 25, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
That just sound like complete and utter bull.  Actually, a lot of it is complete and utter bull.

Are your parents supporting?  The cynical part of me is thinking that if they're not this might be some sort of ploy to get you to stop transitioning.  Or they might genuinely believe him and are concerned for you. 

This was my first thought when reading this as well. Like, maybe he was sent as a messenger to 'talk some sense' into you, and he is just making conjectures in-line with the point he was told to send when he really has no knowledge of any of this.

Thank you everyone. This certainly helped me calm down...
For the first time in my life I was genuinely happy. I cannot return to how I was; I never will. I know the risks involved, but I also know those risks can be prevented. The doctor says that they CANNOT be prevented; once a test shows something is wrong, then that is irreversible. The disease began. That's how he sees it. The guy is extremely smart and very well educated, but maybe he just doesn't have any depth in this area?

Quote from: BearGuy on March 25, 2013, 02:41:12 PM
Thank you everyone. This certainly helped me calm down...
For the first time in my life I was genuinely happy. I cannot return to how I was; I never will. I know the risks involved, but I also know those risks can be prevented. The doctor says that they CANNOT be prevented; once a test shows something is wrong, then that is irreversible. The disease began. That's how he sees it. The guy is extremely smart and very well educated, but maybe he just doesn't have any depth in this area?

the fact he's speaking in absolutes in the first indicator you should not trust his advice

he's a naturopath dude. Not hating on naturopaths, (although sorta I am, but whatever) - think about what that means in context. He is not trained as a medical doctor, he's trained in holistic healing.  He didn't get an MD or a DO, he didn't pass the board exams of a MD or a DO, and he didn't do a traditional medical residency at a hospital.  Look at his credentials. What has he studied that says he knows anything about endocrinology?

Even if he does minor urological surgery, or whatever he is known for and good at, he is probably not pro the unnatural modification of a female body with synthetic male hormones AND he sounds like he has an agenda despite how respectful he may be to you.

sorry this guy derailed you, but read that study posted at the beginning of the thread and take a deep breath.

I'm with AlexanderC and spacerace - sounds like he was sent to "drum some sense into you". Don't fall for it. Talk to YOUR GP if you're worried/curious.

And FWIW at least for hypertension and cardiovascular disease etc, yes taking testosterone increases our risk but from that of a natal female to a natal male. So from what I have read I am no more at risk than my own father and brother... And that's just fine with me

j.

I don't believe in 100% anything but I think this is 100% BS. I was going to make a complaint as I thought you were quoting a certain blogger who is banned here.


--Jay

Quote from: spacerace on March 25, 2013, 02:56:44 PM
the fact he's speaking in absolutes in the first indicator you should not trust his advice

he's a naturopath dude. Not hating on naturopaths, (although sorta I am, but whatever) - think about what that means in context. He is not trained as a medical doctor, he's trained in holistic healing.  He didn't get an MD or a DO, he didn't pass the board exams of a MD or a DO, and he didn't do a traditional medical residency at a hospital.  Look at his credentials. What has he studied that says he knows anything about endocrinology?

Even if he does minor urological surgery, or whatever he is known for and good at, he is probably not pro the unnatural modification of a female body with synthetic male hormones AND he sounds like he has an agenda despite how respectful he may be to you.

sorry this guy derailed you, but read that study posted at the beginning of the thread and take a deep breath.

WE Don't KnowThat He Didn't Go To Medical School. YoU CanBe An M.d. Or D.o. AndStill Practice NaturalMedicine.

But, EvenIfHe Did Go To Medical School, Medicine Is So Complex That I Wouldn't Trust What He Says Unless He Specializes In Endocrinology OrOther Area Relevant To Trans Health.

(Sorry About The Caps, My Phone's Operating System Updated And Now Everything Is Messed Up And My Favorite Features Are Gone )

Quote from: LearnedHand on March 25, 2013, 05:26:20 PM
WE Don't KnowThat He Didn't Go To Medical School. YoU CanBe An M.d. Or D.o. AndStill Practice NaturalMedicine.

There is an actual naturopath degree that naturopathic doctors get as opposed to a MD or DO. It takes 4 years to complete the program. It has a separate licensing system, as governed by the state the program is in. Not all states let doctors with the naturopath degree practice medicine.

The term naturopath, in my experience, references the title.   Is it used as an adjective elsewhere? I've never seen an MD refer to themselves as a naturopath.

Are you kidding me? If someone sat me down and tried to feed me this nonsense I would shorten their lifespan 30 - 40 years just for wasting my time and another 30 for being so stupid.

First of all everyone, male and female, cis or trans have both testosterone and estrogen in their bodies. This means that the hormones are both naturally "living together" in everyone already. All HRT does is reverse those hormone levels by either increasing testosterone to a natural male level while decreasing estrogen for FTMs or increasing estrogen to a natural female level while decreasing testosterone for MTFs. That really is just simple biology and common sense. I would question any "doctor" who is too moronic to have knowledge in either of those areas. Now if you were exceeding normal levels of either hormone, there could be problems but I've still never heard of anything as drastic as he's lying about.

As for being able to go through HRT when you're young and strong at 18? There are people who have transitioned in their 40s who are still alive and well and whose bodies are handling HRT just fine despite their "old age". 

Second, nothing is ever 100%. He's clearly blowing things far out of proportion and fabricating a lot of BS.

He also made a lot of thinly veiled derogatory remarks (saying it was unnatural, claiming that you'll never please a woman, etc.) that someone who was really supportive of your decision never would have made. He just seems to be trying to scare you for some reason and also seems to have some poorly hidden personal prejudices against transsexuals.

There's so much more stupidity in his statement that I can't even address all of it. Someone just needs to slap the fool and tell him to never open his mouth again.

So he thinks that, and this is giving him credit that he's right (which I highly doubt), 30-40 more years are worth spending those plus the other remaining ones you have either way leading a hellish life? Because I'd take the lifespan reduction over living its full length out as a female any day, hands down. This really sounds like he was trying to scare you out of transitioning. What a load of crap...excuse my French.

Quote from: spacerace on March 25, 2013, 06:15:45 PM
There is an actual naturopath degree that naturopathic doctors get as opposed to a MD or DO. It takes 4 years to complete the program. It has a separate licensing system, as governed by the state the program is in. Not all states let doctors with the naturopath degree practice medicine.

The term naturopath, in my experience, references the title.   Is it used as an adjective elsewhere? I've never seen an MD refer to themselves as a naturopath.

I was more pointing out what I found a bit amusing, that we just assume he's never been to medical school to get an M.D. or D.O., you said "look at his credentials" although no one on this post has seen his credentials (besides possibly BearGuy). And, I have seen people with M.D.s tout "natural medicine", so to me it's not something that is necessarily mutually exclusive. I know of lots of people with multiple degrees, or people who study one thing and decide it's rubbish or think they can make more money doing something else and switch careers/majors.    Sorry, I probably just come across as a jerk. I am just in the habit of always asking myself "are we sure we know this as a fact?"

I have since tried to look up our "well-known doctor" (which is actually what got me concerned reading the opening post, whenever I hear "well-known" I think of all those people who come out with one or two poorly research books and then hold themselves up as an expert on TV), and it appears he has not gone to medical school to get an M.D. or D.O., he has the N.D (of course, maybe I am looking at the wrong person's website). So, unless BearGuy clarifies this man's type of doctorate, you're correct.

Though, I am just relieved to know that BearGuy's profile wasn't hacked by our banned blogger. 

The stupid!!

IT BURNS!!!

BearGuy, you broke my BS-O-meter.  The needle started twitching as soon as I read the word "naturopath", and by the time I'd gotten through your summay it had just disintegrated.

Seriously though, don't listen to this guy, and don't make the mistake of thinking he's any kind of an ally.

Quote from: LearnedHand on March 25, 2013, 07:50:58 PM
Sorry, I probably just come across as a jerk. I am just in the habit of always asking myself "are we sure we know this as a fact?"

the OP said the dude was a naturopath.... so I assumed he was a naturopath. I might have assumed too much.

Imho, he "accepted" you as male just to get you to lower your guard. Once he had your trust, he MISUSED his "authority" and "fame" status to give you a typical "hell fire and brimstone" speech, to get you to see the error of your ways.

What he said is crap, and if this happened to me, I would never regard him as any sort of doctor; if he violated the trust his position endows him with, he can never be trusted again.

He is about 70 years behind the science.  Both males and females have both testosterone and estrogen with males having more testosterone and females having more estrogen.  There were some theories floating around in the 1930's though the late 1940's that the hormones of the opposite sex were causing some diseases. So, according to early versions of the theory, everyone was dying from hormones of the opposite sex and if you took those hormones, you would just die faster. 

However, in reality, we all need the low levels of hormones of the opposite sex to function and live.

Your body has been making testosterone from before you were born.  A woman can't make estrogen without making testosterone first.  A man can't metabolize testosterone without making a little estrogen. About the only things that get hit from the big doses necessary for transition are the sex organs and that takes time.  So, be sure that you do not want to have children or bank eggs.  The rest of the body – not a problem.

There are some things that homeopathic medicine does well.  This is NOT one of them. 

There is one exception to hormones causing diseases.  The male prostate has both E1 and E2 receptors.  It looks like estrogen binding with the E1 receptors, along with something else "not yet identified" is one cause of prostate cancer.  However, the fact that he prostate has estrogen receptors should tell people something. Like the fact that the prostate doesn't work without that little bit of estrogen.  And if the prostate doesn't work, the penis doesn't get hard.  An if that doesn't happen, there are no babies.

I mentioned this because it is the one example that could be used to validate an argument where there is actual scientific papers to back it up.  In reality, it's the something else that interferes with the normal binding that causes the cancer but the early research blamed it on estrogen.   

I think I know who you guys are talking about, the "banned blocker"; LOL no I did not get hacked by her. I just had a really rough night. I had no one to talk to and I was shaking, my heart was actually physically hurting (I'm very sensitive, I admit), and I felt like ... my path in life was again to be obstructed. My fiancee, even though she lives next door, was unreachable; her phone fell and broke the day before, she was fast asleep so... I had to talk it out to you guys and eventually my mom who woke up in the middle of the night. This morning the doctor/parents friend said he apologizes if he was at all rough with his words, he really did not mean to, it's just that he cares so much for me (he's a close friend of my parents), and wants everything to be alright. My mom thinks if I stop hormones I'm going to stay the way I am (ignorance of course... but I forgive her, she knows very little about these things). They don't understand a lot. You guys are really convincing me that everything will be alright, just like my ftm physician did, and another counselor.

He said that every single cell relies on hormones, and appropriate levels for each biological gender. At first, with the introduction of testosterone, cells are confused, but allow it as a foreign substance to stay there. After a long period of time, they become frightened; some begin to multiply abnormally, others begin to deteriorate. From there, diseases happen. Your liver WILL be damaged. I'm just remembering more of what he said from last night.