Kia Ora,

I know this topic has been around a few times, but still, it good to air it out again...

So does RLE serve a beneficial purpose ?

Or is it just another unnecessary hurdle to make the trans-person's life even more difficult ?

Note: Real Life Experience =RLE What most surgeon's and mental health professionals require before you have genital surgery...

Metta Zenda

Actually I think it is very important.  20 Plus years ago I tried to transition, but I went back into the closet.  I mentally was not ready to face the world as me.  Now 20 years later, I am more than ready.  And in fact have been for the last 5 years.

JMHO

Quote from: Kuan Yin on April 01, 2013, 10:11:31 PM
Kia Ora,

I know this topic has been around a few times, but still, it good to air it out again...

So does RLE serve a beneficial purpose ?

Or is it just another unnecessary hurdle to make the trans-person's life even more difficult ?

Note: Real Life Experience =RLE What most surgeon's and mental health professionals require before you have genital surgery...

Metta Zenda

it may just be me but i did not feel it was that important. i mean i knew who i was and even when i tried running from it i still knew. so i dove right in the first real chance i had to transition and i did it fast without all the doctors notes.

Maybe I am weird, but to me there is no such thing as RLE. As soon as I could I went full time and haven't looked back. Even if I had had $25000 on hand and there was no such thing as the Standards of Care, I wouldnt have wanted to modify my genitals first. Thats putting the parts before the wholeness.
I can understand it was awful in the olden times when you had to be full time for a year before getting HRT. The result of the old rule was a lot of self medication.
But today RLE only affects SRS/bottom surgery. Anyone who thinks they need a vagina to start living as a woman has it all backwards imho.
Live now, and correct your anatomy when you can if you can and if you really need to.

Quote from: Tristan on April 01, 2013, 11:13:40 PM
it may just be me but i did not feel it was that important. i mean i knew who i was and even when i tried running from it i still knew. so i dove right in the first real chance i had to transition and i did it fast without all the doctors notes.

Kia Ora Tristan,

How long were you living as "Tristan" in the eyes of the general public before having surgery ?

Metta Zenda

Kia Ora,

This is specifically for those members who don't feel RLE is necessary... If you say you already feel comfortable, confident and more than able to 'cope' in society as a woman/man... What possible harm could it do ?

I'm just trying to find out what detrimental effect it could possible have on a trans-person's mental and physical well-being...

Metta Zenda

I used to think it was kind of pointless to have to do RLE before HRT, but since they've changed the regulations... The only case I can think of where it might be kind of hard to pull off would be for an FTM with a large chest. I think you need at least six months of RLE and a letter from a therapist for top surgery, but I'm not sure. I haven't looked into surgery much yet. Overall I think a reasonable amount of RLE should be required before any major surgery is performed, just to make sure that person is ready to make such a drastic, permanent change.

I think it's more important to have realistic expectations before undertaking any medical treatment that is irreversible. So-called RLE is one way to get a reality check but I don't think it is good at sorting those who should from those who shouldn't. A lot of people have difficulty in legal changes (on a world-wide view) and that shouldn't be used against them. And on the other hand there will always be a certain number of people who thought surgery was a magic cure to something that transition can't fix.

I found it useful and affirming. OK I was on HRT and it was eventually kind to me, but I found that my interpersonal skills and daily relationships with society were different to what I had thought, well I hadn't thought about them to be honest.
So my experience as 'having' to be me was a time that I enjoyed and learned from.

I am aware of several people who decide that living their gender is not for them, for many reasons, I think finding that out before you commit to body altering, expensive and irreversible treatment is a good thing.

I'm not sure if I regarded it as RLE or a test drive. I also did not regard it as part of 'gate-keeping' I regarded it as making sure. I was, I am.

But I suspect that those who found it easy will have a different perspective to those who didn't.

For surgery, I can definitely see why the RLE is seriously important. It's a necessary step to separate fantasy from reality. Otherwise, there would be quite a few people who would do it on a whim, suddenly realize that the reality is WAY different from the fantasy, and realize that they made a terrible mistake too late.

In regards to HRT, though... well, let's just say that if RLE was required before that, I would NEVER have transitioned in the first place. It took me a good two and a half months of hormones before I finally felt comfortable enough with myself to go out in public as a girl for the first time. If RLE was required first, basically exposing an unpassable person to a world of stares and snickers, I NEVER would have been able to do it. Hell, I only started HRT in the first place because it was so easy to get started on. I wasn't 100% sure that I even was transsexual when I started. I just had hunches, and personal stories to compare to others who had made the jump successfully, to go off of. Hormones were the thing that sealed the deal for me. Suddenly, it was like the whole world just lit up in an unbelievable fireworks display, and suddenly everything made sense, and suddenly for the first time I felt that "sense of self," and that feeling that the thoughts in my head were finally right, and I finally knew for 100% sure that I really was transsexual, and really did want to transition fully. I didn't know before that. And so now because I was indeed able to have such open access to HRT meds, I have now gone the official route, and gone to therapy, and gone to official medical supervision, and am now completely 100% sure of who I am. Before doing my little "trial," I did not know, nor do I even think it would have been possible for me to know.

One of the good things about hormones, is that the mental effects begin appearing very quickly, and yet none of the changes really start becoming permanent until about the 2-3 month mark. So there is a BIG buffer zone in the middle where those who have made a mistake can realize that they have made a mistake, and go off of them with pretty much no permanent damage done. Unlike surgery, where once it's happened, that's it. There is no chance for second-guessing, and no chance to be unsure about it, because once it's done it's done, and you're going to spend the rest of your life unhappy if it was a mistake. So making sure that someone is a prime candidate for surgery, and various "gatekeeping" procedures, are VERY important. Hormones, not so much. If someone's transsexual desires suddenly vanish after starting hormones, and they realize it's not what they wanted, so be it. They stop taking them, go on with their lives, and no harm done. If the same thing were to happen after SRS, though, tough luck. You're stuck with it. You're never going to have your original body back no matter what.

That's my opinion at least. And again, I'm probably biased because I DEFINITELY did not do a RLE prior to beginning hormones, and I'm frankly glad that I didn't have to. It would have discouraged me more than anything, and I might never have found my true self.

To my seeing, RLE isn't a step to the goal. It IS the goal.

To spend every waking hour being seen as a woman by others and seeing myself as one.

RLE without hormones and electroysis is cruel and unusual punishment

I am living my real life already :3 and on hormones and happy without prior RLE.  I need to do "RLE" for surgury but thats ok really, I will already be living as a woman so it won't be much more than a formality.

My problem with RLE is some therapist expect you to live by their rules and thats not reality.

Kia Ora,

And thanks for your responses so far...

I can fully understand how difficult the RLE could be without  prior use of HRT, however I'm wondering if those who do have access to HRT prior to having surgery, still don't see why they must living full time 24/7/365 prior to surgery...

However in saying this, I know in many instances the problem lies with them not being able to change legal documents, which can restrict their chances of employment...

I guess it's a catch 22 dilemma...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on April 01, 2013, 10:18:53 PM
Actually I think it is very important.  20 Plus years ago I tried to transition, but I went back into the closet.  I mentally was not ready to face the world as me.  Now 20 years later, I am more than ready.  And in fact have been for the last 5 years.

JMHO

+1

In my case it was 30+ years ago and tried twice. There is a current active thread on de-transitioning https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,138313.0/topicseen.html as well as others. I sure think it matters.

Dropping back a few steps, I researched about being trans since I was 12. Twice experimented with transitioning. Been on/off HRT several times over 30 years. Plus am married to a MTF whom I've had a relationship with for well over 30 years. So I kinda had a handle on this stuff. Yet, I was floored going to my first TG support group meeting a few years ago.

I think its certainly important but not if you're unpassable. How can you live the experience in the gender you want when you cant be recognised for what you are? HRT alone will not be enough for me as my body is unpassable. The only way I can go RLE is to have top surgery, otherwise its impossible for me to do. I've been living the RLE my entire life, always worn these clothes and everything else but I cant properly live when the wrong name and pronouns are used constantly. I assume they would allow HRT and top surgery to happen before expecting me to go RLE before bottom surgery as its not possible for me to any other way. I havent had my initial meeting yet so I dont know when HRT could start but I'll do it as soon as they let me as well as the surgery. Hoping the surgery can happen quickly followed with T so I can then be seen for what I really am and do the year of RLE as a requirement of bottom surgery if thats still insisted upon. In my case there is no chance at all of me 'regretting' the decision to go all the way with surgery. Known my entire life I needed all this and thats not going to change so if I can get them to hurry up about it I will do so. Maybe if they see the case is bad enough to warrant surgery to happen sooner they may be able to do so, I really dont know yet

I'm sorry but part of me is reading this thread and shaking my head in disbelief.

So RLE is not really that important?

So what? A woman is boobs, smooth skin, hormones and a p*ssy? Is this what some people here think a woman amounts to? And what of a man? A flat chest and a dick?

And what, some of you seriously think you just have to pay for this stuff and that entitles you to equal social acceptance on a par with a ciswoman and a cisman?

Really?

And you think that you can just walk into some doctor's office claiming to be female (or male) and get by without any RLE?

I admit that being trans places you at a disadvantage because you have to prove your gender when nobody else is challenged for their gender, but still. Life isn't always fair.

But you know nobody gets to be born a woman, or a man for that matter. Mothers give birth to girls and boys and both have to go through a lengthy process of socialization and living to become acceptable as men and women.

That's how the world works.

Therefore please excuse me but RLE is perhaps the most important part of your transition. How else are you going to pick up all those social skills? By reading a glossy magazine? By asking questions on this forum?

To flippantly dismiss RLE as unnecessary is somewhat insulting if not downright offensive not just to all the trans out there who make the effort through RLE to socialize themselves, it's also downright insulting and rude to ciswomen. Think about it. You're basically telling them that their life experience, their intelligence and their character isn't that important. Well not as important as their appearance, their boobs, and what exists between their legs.

Is it therefore any wonder that some ciswomen feel offended by transwomen? What a great way to fuel the arguments of the radical feminists, not to mention the prejudices of others.

But hey, don't worry about it. Not your problem if you're not that into RLE is it?

Next time you go to see your doc or your specialist or whoever just please stop and think for a moment as to why they give you the benefit of the doubt and aren't regarding you as some sort of sexual deviant.

Please. Think about it.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on April 02, 2013, 03:01:31 PM
Kia Ora,

And thanks for your responses so far...

I can fully understand how difficult the RLE could be without  prior use of HRT, however I'm wondering if those who do have access to HRT prior to having surgery, still don't see why they must living full time 24/7/365 prior to surgery...

However in saying this, I know in many instances the problem lies with them not being able to change legal documents, which can restrict their chances of employment...

I guess it's a catch 22 dilemma...

Metta Zenda

HRT has nothing to do with RLE. Many do RLE without hormones. Just as many do hormones without RLE.

Most of the fulltime transitioners in my group take of of legal documents long before surgery. All have transitioned on the job. Of course a lot depends on where you live and what legal protections, if any, you have.

At the end of the day it is not what is between our legs that makes you a woman, it is what is between your ears. After a lifetime of living as one gender, I cannot see how you can be absolutely sure that the other is the answer to what troubles your heart without trying it first.

StellaB, what is male/female socialization?

If a male was socialize to be a female, does that make him female. Also can the other way for female be said the same as well.

I don't exactly socialize as a female, but certainly do not think of myself as a male. Am I a dude?

Just a year ago back in February I began my RLE that continued until May.

The Number One thing I took from it was, even as a known transwoman, I could function in my day to day life.  Going to class, visiting the TA, going grocery shopping.  I never held, and still don't hold, any hope that HRT will feminize me all that much.  So finding out I could live, on the whole easier than I was living as a man, was crucial to my going full time.

I may never pass well, but my RLE taught me that's okay.  My RLE has then left me free to be me no matter what HRT does or doesn't do.  So while I do not agree with the old rules of needing to be full time before HRT, I do think it's important to get out there and do things to prove to yourself you can function in your new gender role before you do anything that has irreversible consequences.

Well, StellaB, I understand what you're saying, but I think it's different for everyone. In my case, so much of my dysphoria is physical that I really do feel like HRT and the physical changes are even more important to me.

I didn't even consider transitioning until I found out about HRT. And that is pretty much the prime reason that I wanted to do it... so that I could finally be happy with my body. So that I could have an actual shape, and so that I could be hairless again, and have smooth skin, and actually have the chance to look cute instead of bulky and masculine and gross. On the social front, I did have problems with the social role of being perceived as male, but nowhere near as many problems as with LOOKING male. And honestly, I'm at the point where my dysphoria is pretty much completely gone already, because even though I haven't fully transitioned yet, for the first time ever I'm becoming happy with my body. And that was my primary source of discomfort.

So for me, these physical things really are just as important than the social things that RLE provides. I know for a fact that I would want these physical changes even if I wasn't transitioning at all. While if I did have access to the social transition but didn't have access to the physical transition of HRT, I seriously don't know if I'd do it, because my dysphoria is way more physical than social. So... man, it feels shallow to say this, but the physical changes really are a big deal to me. I feel like I want to be a woman physically more than I want to be one socially. And again, I'm sorry if that makes me shallow or anything, but I really do feel that way. And there are a lot of people out there who really aren't that feminine behaviorally, and are just fine being genderqueer or androgynous or some in-between state, but they DEFINITELY want a female body physically. So honestly, I really do believe that RLE should not be a universal rule. If one's primary goal is to be accepted as a woman socially, then of course it is important... the most important step of all. And it will be an important step for me too. But to many, the physical really does transcend the social. Everyone is different. We all want different things. And developing a set of rigid rules that must be followed no matter what, and a list of hoops that everyone must jump through or else, while helpful to the vast majority, is grossly unfair to those who fall outside of the "norms," specifically the bigender and genderqueer communities.

And again, I'm glad that RLE is generally not required prior to hormones, because otherwise I might never have had the courage to actually do it, and I might never have found my true self.