I have heard these stories too, many times, about very unpassable trans women who claim to be happy. Some of those who claimed to be happy are no longer with us and killed themselves. There's a big difference between what people say and what people do.

I know an unpassable transwoman,she is overweight and has thinning greying hair and a gravelly voice because of smoking,she is always clocked and doesn't give a rat's ass.She lives in a war zone in my town and drives a ratty 20 year old multi coloured old Ford that cost £125.She always has a smile on her face and has been with her boyfriend for 5 years and people respect and admire her.It can be done with the right attitude.

Quote from: big kim on April 02, 2013, 12:53:18 PM
I know an unpassable transwoman,she is overweight and has thinning greying hair and a gravelly voice because of smoking,she is always clocked and doesn't give a rat's ass.She lives in a war zone in my town and drives a ratty 20 year old multi coloured old Ford that cost £125.She always has a smile on her face and has been with her boyfriend for 5 years and people respect and admire her.It can be done with the right attitude.

YES!!!

yes yes yes.
This in spades!

Our lives do not have to be ruled by how others percieve us.

I guess one of the main points of this thread was to emphasize that transition can make your gender dysphoria worse, much worse, as in my case. I hope everyone can see why, now. For me, living as an unpassable woman who is constantly reminded of being a man in a dress is far worse than living as a male. I am not saying that I was happy living as a male, hell now, but I am saying that it was much less traumatic. The problem now is that I have had FFS and my face doesn't work for a woman and doesn't work for a man either, so, that's part of my dilemma.

I can't begin to imagine what you go through with yourself on a daily basis but I can certainly relate to your situation. The very exact things you've listed and your very situation is what terrifies me about starting HRT and wanting to transition myself.

I've seen plenty of success stories, there is plenty of them right here on this site. But I'm scared I won't turn out looking like I want to either. Then because of the HRT I won't be able to turn back, won't have functioning parts below and sterile.

So I feel for you and my heart goes out to you.

Quote from: KaylaW on April 02, 2013, 06:06:16 PM
I can't begin to imagine what you go through with yourself on a daily basis but I can certainly relate to your situation. The very exact things you've listed and your very situation is what terrifies me about starting HRT and wanting to transition myself.

I've seen plenty of success stories, there is plenty of them right here on this site. But I'm scared I won't turn out looking like I want to either. Then because of the HRT I won't be able to turn back, won't have functioning parts below and sterile.

So I feel for you and my heart goes out to you.

thank you for your nice words, but be careful with HRT. HRT is not as effective as people make it sound. Yes, it will give you softer skin, it will make you gain weight more easily, but it will not change your bone structure at all. HRT is definitely over-rated, it is actually the most over-rated things ever. The changes are so slow and so subtle...

Hormones can only do so much and that also depends on your age when you start.

But they do work, they will soften your skin, soften your features, you will develop breasts, your mood will change. 

Passing is also attitude.

Some people will never be happy with their changes, maybe because they expected too much.  But others are totally pleased.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on April 02, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
Hormones can only do so much and that also depends on your age when you start.

But they do work, they will soften your skin, soften your features, you will develop breasts, your mood will change. 

Passing is also attitude.

Some people will never be happy with their changes, maybe because they expected too much.  But others are totally pleased.

Softer skin and boobs will not make you passable. I have both of them and people read me as a book. Now, I am honestly interested and curious, what does it mean that passing is attitude? I keep hearing this over and over again, but someone who is tall, heavy, has a deep voice, a masculine, large skull, no amount of right attitude will make her pass. In fact, people who have read me in a second didn't even have time to determine my attitude.

Quote from: unpassable on April 02, 2013, 12:39:37 AM
It surprises me that some posters here feel that you can still have a good life being unpassable. 

Life is what YOU make it. Plenty of people out there are "different" from what others perceive is normal. People who ridicule others for those differences are the ones with the real problems. Hormones and plastic surgery aren't golden tickets to cross over to the gender you are inside rather than outside. They work for some, but not all. The fact that they're standard treatment protocol for trans* people is something I personally don't agree with, but every individual should be able to make a choice on how they manage their dysphoria (because I think you were right when you mentioned that hormones and surgery aren't just for passing, they're also for dysphoria).

I believe that this particular reason is why most (again, not all) therapists advocate going "full time" for x-amount of time before having surgeries to test the waters.

Society has it so ingrained what is male and what is female, that it's difficult if there's something you can't change about yourself that "says" one or the other to the outside world. I won't say MtFs have it harder than FTMs or vice versa because it doesn't really matter. Everyone is an individual and making that choice to transition has consequences for everyone that vary a great deal. To say one particular group has it worse is really inaccurate. But no matter what other people think of you (or your gender) it doesn't change the facts. The fact is you're female, whether or not the outside matches up perfectly with society's narrow viewpoint. If you've gone so far in your transition to have a name change and gender marker change then society will just have to deal, it's not your burden unless you make it one (and having to mention something to a manager at a gym shouldn't be seen as a burden, but just a new task that you need to occasionally undertake).

What I've come to learn (the hard way) over time is that money can not buy happiness. I consider myself lucky in that I haven't transitioned and I don't plan to. Because I learned that even if I spent thousands of dollars on therapy, hormones, surgeries, that wouldn't solve some core issues for me. I'm on the flip side of the coin from you in that I'm actually male, but the large portion of the world still sees me as female (sometimes I can pull off androgynous or a younger guy, but that's about all I can get). But I've got priorities in my life and a lot of them have nothing to do with gender. Also, I didn't choose my gender. I came into this world with it. What the doctors wrote on my birth certificate is just something I've chosen to live with. Luckily I have some friends and a spouse who know the real me. That helps if you can have people in your life who understand and accept you, regardless of what you look like. Others have mentioned support groups ... surly there's something like that in Vegas that you could get involved with? Begin to bring people into your life who support you, regardless. 

What helps in my own situation is not trying to "pass", but just being myself. I don't have a checklist anymore that I'm always mentally trying to make sure I'm conforming to. I have my off days where dysphoria is a problem, but I have my own coping mechanisms now as well. I don't put on an act for anyone though. They get the real me whether they know what's actually in my pants or not. If I'm out and about where no one knows me and someone calls me "ma'am" I have occasionally corrected them if I feel so inclined (and if I don't have to show my ID or pay with a credit card somewhere). Even tiny efforts like that have made me feel more comfortable in my own skin.

I had to change my perspective on a number of things in order for any happiness to happen to me. Notice I say that it happened, because I don't believe you can "find" happiness either. It's like one of those things that the harder you try to obtain it, the farther it slips away from your grasp. The more you try to focus on it, the more you build up your definition of it and therefore make it that much harder to attain. "I'll be happy when I can have the face of a women". You're not only imposing demands on yourself, but you're putting qualifiers on happiness itself and if you don't meet those qualifiers then you assume you can never be happy and like all good self-fulfilling prophecies, you won't be.

It's not just trans* people who struggle with this. People with illnesses, people who are disabled, regular "average" people who have imposed things onto themselves, all struggle with "finding happiness" or being happy with themselves or their bodies. Everyone seems to be striving so hard to be happy. They try to get it through a therapist, they try to get it through pills, they try to get it through other people, objects, actions, and obsessions. But I truly believe that in order for happiness to happen, you have to change your perspective. You have to embrace the "now" and life "as-is" with all its quirks and nuances. You have to be open to the possibility that happiness can happen. Don't struggle so hard to find it.

The body is just a vessel and all of us are stuck in the very same bodies that we were born with no matter how we try to change them on the outside. We're all seeking to be comfortable in our body, but comfortable is variable as well. I believe when you embrace things as they are, a small spark is ignited deep inside of you and that spark is confidence. That in turn can help you to let go of all these grandiose definitions and crazy demands you've put on yourself.

Also, once that confidence is sparked, you may find that you can eloquently confront people who snicker or point fingers and turn the tables on them ... let them know you're a confident and secure WOMAN who doesn't resort to violence to get her point across, but rises above pettiness. People who point and snicker and say hurtful things usually continue to do so because they can sense there will be no repercussions for their actions and they feed off the reactions they cause in people (they probably have a lot of issues of their own as well). You may also find over time that things like that just roll on by you because confidence can build an inner strength that can ground you like a large boulder in a mountain stream. Things can flow easily and calmly around you while you remain securely rooted. If you don't react the way the taunters want you to, then they weaken, not you (and who knows, they might also learn over time that that's not appropriate behavior).

Even if someone is transitioning, at any given moment they can still embrace things as they are. We're all on a journey, whether that journey includes HRT and surgeries is up to the individual, but there really is no point at all that I've found in the 40 years I've been on this rock so far, to hating yourself and hating the body you currently have (unless you just want to be miserable). Life is all about ups and downs, no matter what path you're on and I also believe that no matter whether you feel you've made a "bad" choice in life (we all make so-called bad choices), it's not something to fixate on, beat yourself up about, or create insurmountable obstacles over. You learn, and you move forward, perhaps in a different and better direction than before.

All of this is not "easy". One day you can't just declare, "I'm going to be more confident!" and have it magically happen. It takes work and it takes a genuine effort to make very small steps in a different direction. But I've become a bit of an optimist over the years and I'm hear to say that it is possible to be transsexual, not "passable" and still live a fruitful, exciting, full and happy life.

Maria, I know you are hurting and if I was there you would receive a real big hug, but now a virtual hug has to do.

I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story, even when it must hurt badly to write everything down. I just feel that your story is a good reminder especially for myself and most likely to others too who hasn't yet started a HRT that starting it and expecting something might be unreachable and make me just even more unhappy.

Of course it's a case of you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

But your story has given me a lot to think about and I guess I need to have some kind of back-up plan if this body doesn't really turn out passable.

I know people say that just ignore laughing people etc. At least I'm not that strong people, but I do admire those who are strong enough to just walk on and ignore everything that is thrown against them.

Thank you Maria and please take care of yourself.

Kia Ora Maria,

What kind of support is it you're looking for ?

1) Get some counselling

2) Dress more androgynous

3) Move to a more trans-friendly environment

4) Detransition

What's done is done and a lesson learnt-you can't go back- you can only move forward...

It might sound harsh but this the 'reality' you now face...

The choice is yours...Good luck...

Metta Zenda

Hi Maria,

I am very sorry to hear about your situation and I wish I knew how to help, but I don't. :-(

Say, I think a lot of us are very curious at this point: could you by any chance post a couple of pictures of yourself? It might just be all in your head, maybe... Hard to tell without a picture to look at..

Hugs,
Andrea

I'm going to quote something from my previous post, as the OP seems to have missed it. I'm also going to make some further comments..

Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on April 01, 2013, 03:11:36 AM
Here's a tip, if you are dressed right, move right, talk right, etc, most people will never 'clock' you. In my experience, the only people who look at at trans people close enough to notice are other trans people. Don't get me wrong, I have the odd (almost none) person laugh or comment, but I ignore them. Attitude and confidence have been key for me - without them I'd be a miserable wreck.

Like I said previously, ignore them and move on. They are the ones with a problem - not you.

From reading the subsequent posts, I suspect there is more going on than just your appearance.. You keep making comments about how an MTF's bone structure is a give away - the differences between 'typical male' and 'typical female' for most things are quite small and in a fairly genetically diverse population, can be almost non-existent. And most people are ignorant of the differences, so your 'argument' about bone structure is really a bit of a loss.

I wonder about your posture, how you move, how you sound and how you 'act'. These are more likely to 'give you away' than looks alone, but even these are just small items.

Here's a question for you.. Do you want to be a woman or are you a woman?

I'm a woman and have 100% confidence in my identity. I am also have 100% self-acceptance of this. I feel these 2 items are key.  I feel that without these, you may as walk around with a sign that says 'I'm a trans woman.'

Here you are...



I'm giving this thread a theme song. Found almost the perfect song. It's by Christina Aguliera. Listen to it. Daily if necessary.

You don't need to pass to transition. Sure it helps if you do. But it's not essential. Let me tell you a secret Maria. I can pass if I really want to. But I don't always make the effort as it's not a major priority in my life.

I guess at the end of the day it depends on what sort of character you have. It depends on what you have deep down inside you.

You see the thing is, despite over a decade of RLE and not having much physical stuff done all the most important aspects of my transition are behind me. The 'F' in my passport, on my medical records, and the knowledge that I did the right thing by coming out and transitioning.

I'm female. Period. End of. It's not just me here saying it, it's my reality. It's who I am. And you know all the hormones and surgical procedures and stuff that we have to go through isn't going to make me any more female.

Nor is it ever going to change the fact that I'm trans. This is how I was born, this is who I am, and it's going to be how I die.

I'm cool with that knowledge. I'm totally comfortable with who I am. No issues with looking in the mirror. I can also fem up whenever I want and go out. I get laughed at more times because I'm fat than because I'm trans. But I'm working on my weight, I'll get there eventually.

Like I said it all boils down to what sort of person you are at the end of the day.

When things don't turn out the way you plan what do you do? Do you look inward and see if there's something you could do differently? Or do you get angry and lash out and look for someone to blame?

Do you go through life pointing out other people's issues, or do you do what you can to accept, own and work on your issues?

What do you do when you get angry? Do you recognize it and try to turn it into something more positive, or do you sit there and seeth and burn inside with caustic resentment and bitterness?

Are you more concerned with being right and winning the argument or is finding some sort of agreement and common ground more important to you?

Are you able to accept that you have made mistakes and move on, and do you let go when other people make mistakes and get it wrong? Or do you hold them accountable?

That's a good word - accountable. How accountable or responsible do you feel for your life and the quality of your living experience?

Let's take that all important word, shall we? Trans. It's just a label, nothing more. It's not really something which defines you, or is it? To me it's just a small part of who I am, about as important as the colour of my eyes or the size of my feet.

Sure it can make my life more difficult, but you can still have a happy, fulfilling life even if it's difficult for you. But my being trans doesn't give me a pass, nor does it single me out for special treatment.

Some people have an issue with it, SOME people, just like some people have an issue with fat people, some people have an issue with the other gender. Some people have an issue with homosexuals. The truth is the vast majority of people out there don't know me, don't care who I am and aren't that bothered.

The discrimination doesn't bother me. Not at all. Even if I were born female, even an attractive female, I would still have to face and deal with discrimination. Everybody has to deal with discrimination at some point in their lives. Even men. It doesn't bother me because not everybody has to like me.

So what sort of person are you Maria? Who are you? Do you know?

Tons of good support and advice so far... I would also add that before you detransition, ask youself this rather unpolitically-correct question, irrespective of the fact that I hope you feel like and know you are a woman no matter what: would you rather live as an 'acceptable looking' male, or a less than attractive/acceptable looking female? I'd rather be the ugliest girl in town rather than the prettiest boy, you know? Luckily, I'm not in that situation (lol, and thank fate), but still, it wouldn't be a question. What would you prefer?

And although it might be hard, if you are in fact open and living as a female, meaning not bothered about revealing your face or even just your average look to us, we might be able to offer not only support, but constructive advice to improve yourself from our own experiences and perspectives? What could it hurt? No one here is going to insult you or make you feel anything less than the woman you are, I can guarantee that. I think the four pages of heartfelt advice and commiseration so far is proof of that! Before you do something as drastic as detransition, I think you should give it a shot!

To GendrKweer: we totally missed the point. I don't care about being pretty. What I wanted to be was believable, even very ugly, but believable as a woman. You know, there are plenty of unattractive women out there who are never questioned as far as their gender? And even if we want to stretch and say that there are women mistaken for men, it doesn't happen that often to them as to someone in my position. At this point, I would rather live as a believable man than as an unpassable woman. I repeat once again that transition made my dysphoria worse. Nobody seems to have lingered on that point. As for posting the picture, I can't do that. I just can't for now. Sorry.



To StellaB: I don't put blame on others but I am mostly upset at my therapists and surgeon for giving me false expectations. For instance, my surgeon should have warned me beforehand that despite all the surgical procedures, my face was going to remain grossly masculine. I'm fine with the fact that I am trans, really, I have no qualms of being a genetic female, I just wanted to move through the world unmolested.

To Kelly the Trans-Rebel: I highly doubt that my posture, voice are giving me away. I strongly disagree with you that the changes in body structure are so minimal that most people don't even notice them.

why not have a test run??? drive to a new town, throw on some menswear, and hit the local bar...just be a bloke for a day, and it might be awesome...

Quote from: kkut on April 03, 2013, 09:46:03 AM
unpassable, this appears to be a contradiction to something you said prior. Before you said your FFS makes it hard to present as male now.

Can you help us understand this apparent contradiction? (I'm not trying to poke holes here, I really want to have a better understanding of your situation  ).

No, this is not a contradiction. RIght now my face doesn't work as a woman and wouldn't work as a man either. It's a hybrid's face. I don't know how to explain, it's a freak's face. Where do you see the contradiction?

Quote from: unpassable on April 03, 2013, 11:39:48 AM
No, this is not a contradiction. RIght now my face doesn't work as a woman and wouldn't work as a man either. It's a hybrid's face. I don't know how to explain, it's a freak's face. Where do you see the contradiction?

You mean androgynous I would love to see a picture where I can judge for myself how passable or unpassable you are.

you have to see me in real life to determine how unpassable I am. If I am telling you that I am unpassable and I get read many times, why can't you just believe me?  Pictures can give you only an idea. In any case, my point is very clear. By bone structure I mean the face as well, when the face is too long and/or too wide or simply too big, too square that even several rounds of FFS don't feminize it enough. I don't understand why it is so difficult for you to conceive a face that doesn't work for a female and doesn't work for a male either. Sort of a hybrid face. Think about Bruce Jenner or Michael Jackson but much worse. A grossly masculine face altered by plastic surgery that still looks grossly masculine.

If I posted my pictures, some of you would suggest covering my face with hair like my doctor said (been there, done that, it can't be done in hot weather and makes you look stupid, at this point I would rather become muslim and go around with a burka), some of you would even go as far as saying that I don't look that bad, but you absolutely don't get a realistic picture from a photo. Have you ever been apartment hunting? I see all these apartment that look one way in pictures and then look completely different in real life. Posting pictures is pointless, really. I look bad, now I have to decide how to live a better life. Presenting androgynous seems the best solution for now, but, again, I can't think about spending the rest of my life hiding in baggy clothes and hats.

My biggest desire, though, is to stress that transition can make your gender dysphoria much worse. When I was a man, let's say my gender dysphoria was 100. Now that I have lived full time my gender dysphoria is 100000000000. Do you see my point?