Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

Why do so many transwomen become caricatures?

Started by Elsa.G, April 02, 2013, 06:34:44 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Elsa.G

Not all of course but ive recently attended a few lgbt meetings in my city and most of if not all the transwomen there seemed to be what i would call caricatures of women. They dress and act like stereotypical women you know with too much make up, very feminine dresses, high heels and obnoxiously high voices- i mean the kind where it seems like they are REALLY forcing it. I don't mean to speak ill of anyone in the community but to me it seems like the harder they try the more they give themselves away- that's why personally it seems like subtlety is much better. A lot of the transwomen i speak of tend to be the older crowd as well but ive seen plenty of younger gals like this. Could it be because of all the years of suppressing who is on the inside? is it a form of being validated? Can someone explain this to me?
  •  

Joanna Dark

Maybe you should ask them? I will say more typically-feminine MTFs seem to be the exception rather than the rule, personality-wise. The things you stated were kinda more physical aspects of people, as opposed to interests and likes, which point to a person's personality. If it makes them happy, I say go for it.
  •  

Devlyn

Quote from: Elsa.G on April 02, 2013, 06:34:44 PM
Not all of course but ive recently attended a few lgbt meetings in my city and most of if not all the transwomen there seemed to be what i would call caricatures of women. They dress and act like stereotypical women you know with too much make up, very feminine dresses, high heels and obnoxiously high voices- i mean the kind where it seems like they are REALLY forcing it. I don't mean to speak ill of anyone in the community but to me it seems like the harder they try the more they give themselves away- that's why personally it seems like subtlety is much better. A lot of the transwomen i speak of tend to be the older crowd as well but ive seen plenty of younger gals like this. Could it be because of all the years of suppressing who is on the inside? is it a form of being validated? Can someone explain this to me?

I give this post high marks on the Rude-o-meter. You having a bad day, hon?
  •  

MaidofOrleans

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 02, 2013, 07:15:36 PM
I give this post high marks on the Rude-o-meter. You having a bad day, hon?

Are you being sarcastic?

What's rude about her question? It's simply a question based on an observation she's made.

Quote from: Elsa.G on April 02, 2013, 06:34:44 PM
Not all of course but ive recently attended a few lgbt meetings in my city and most of if not all the transwomen there seemed to be what i would call caricatures of women. They dress and act like stereotypical women you know with too much make up, very feminine dresses, high heels and obnoxiously high voices- i mean the kind where it seems like they are REALLY forcing it. I don't mean to speak ill of anyone in the community but to me it seems like the harder they try the more they give themselves away- that's why personally it seems like subtlety is much better. A lot of the transwomen i speak of tend to be the older crowd as well but ive seen plenty of younger gals like this. Could it be because of all the years of suppressing who is on the inside? is it a form of being validated? Can someone explain this to me?

My answer would be that there are cis women like this too but no one tells then they are trying too hard because there is nothing for them to be trying at they just like really girly stuff. Personality wise I'm a tomboy but I still love going girly from time to time. It's not that I'm forcing it, I just enjoy it.
"For transpeople, using the right pronoun is NOT simply a 'political correctness' issue. It's core to the entire struggle transpeople go through. Using the wrong pronoun means 'I don't recognize you as who you are.' It means 'I think you're confused, delusional, or mentally I'll.'. It means 'you're not important enough for me to acknowledge your struggle.'"
  •  

kira21 ♡♡♡

I am probably one of these.

I was like that in 'guy mode' before though. Should I not have been ? are camp men caricatures of women?

It is who I am. There are girly (cis)girls like that too. They are not 'caricatures of women' :-|

You can't get me to describe why I like baking and nail paint and girl bands and the colour pink any more than you can get a man to describe why he likes football. Why do you like cheese?

You do. There is no specific reason for that, so just accept it. (actually, there is probably a good evolutionary reason for why our tastes a different related to survival and I could go into a few in PM if you really want to discuss evolution and genetics - but still) Nobody asks my sister why she likes heels and baking. Me and my sister are very alike in all these things. Why shouldn't we be?  Should I have to be masculine or even less girly than her? Should anybody have to be anything? Or can we all live on a spectrum and place ourselves wherever we are comfortable?

I like that stuff....     ...because I do.

I am trying hard not to find being called a caricature insulting. I know a lot of people would find me that way. Germaine Greer (evilous bi*ch) included. That is very close to her tran* phobic remarks. Hmmmmm.  Personally I give less of a monkeys about 'giving myself away' than doing the things that I like and being me. OK, I might be a stereotypical woman but I can't help that. My 'too much make up' helps to cover the face hair and rash and other masculine features. 

It's not often I don't agree with MoO but I am afraid I *do* find this rude.

Misato

#5
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 02, 2013, 07:03:35 PM
If it makes them happy, I say go for it.

Edit for clarity:  I agree with this quote.

I'm also with Devlyn.

Since taking my turn reading Whipping Girl, and in particular the section about gatekeepers, I've been bothered by how we in the community today commit the same errors the gatekeepers did to our trans brothers and sisters by making statements like, "we gotta pass for cis" or "someone should do something different cause it would be 'better'".

If subtlety works for someone, great!  If being a Glam-Rock Grandma works for another, so be it!  In the interest of avoiding saying someone should do something myself I'll instead say, when a fellow transperson is out there, celebrating and owning who they are as an individual and where they are on the gender spectrum, I think in general more good is done than harm.

Now I must listen to Pork and Beans.

♫ They I say I need some Rogaine to put in my Hair ♫ ...
  •  

Angélique LaCava

I'm like that. I'm very girly and it comes natural. So it's not our fault for how we act
  •  

Seyranna

It's somewhat common for trans women to fall prey to over-stereotypification and a certain degree of ultra-feminization early on in transition. The real problem comes if several months later they don't realize that they pretty much look like mockeries instead of actual women and find a more natural/desirable middle. Not to mention over the top presentations generally critically hinder passability... So it's in fact quite counter-productive to go down that path.
  •  

JennX

Some tend to overcompensate. No different than a middle aged guy with a small penis who drives a Ferrari.
"If you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain."
-Dolly Parton
  •  

Beth Andrea

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on April 02, 2013, 07:18:34 PM
...

What's rude about her question? It's simply a question based on an observation she's made.

...

Fortunately for me, I am early in my transition. But if I'd tried and tried to "pass" for several years, and could finally stomach the thought that "at least I'm happy for me"...and then I saw this thread...

Flat out, I'd probably kill myself within minutes. As it is, I'm near the edge.

Quote from: Isabelle on April 02, 2013, 08:22:45 PM
In b4 lock. In future please make sure all of your opinions are in line with those of our baby-boomer overlords.

Snarky comments add nothing to this discussion.
...I think for most of us it is a futile effort to try and put this genie back in the bottle once she has tasted freedom...

--read in a Tessa James post 1/16/2017
  •  

Beth Andrea

Quote from: JennX on April 02, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
Some tend to overcompensate. No different than a middle aged guy with a small penis who drives a Ferrari.

Just like with the "big trucks = small penis"....there is no evidence for this claim, just a personal (and very intimate) smear against the vehicle in question.

Liberals don't like big trucks (gas hogs), sports cars (gas hogs, above their own socio-economic status), and guns (ooh! Evil!!)....so rather than debate about those issues based on facts, they use insults against those who have the BALLS to debate like adults.
...I think for most of us it is a futile effort to try and put this genie back in the bottle once she has tasted freedom...

--read in a Tessa James post 1/16/2017
  •  

Shawn Sunshine

I was in a meeting last september and some flamboyant transgirls were wondering why i was so mild mannered in comparison to them, but they said they were getting used to the "new" types of transgendered people coming in. So heh I guess im the new "new"

Shawn Sunshine Strickland The Strickalator

#SupergirlsForJustice
  •  

MaidofOrleans

Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 02, 2013, 10:15:46 PM
Snarky comments add nothing to this discussion.

and...

Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 02, 2013, 10:18:47 PM
Liberals don't like big trucks (gas hogs), sports cars (gas hogs, above their own socio-economic status), and guns (ooh! Evil!!)....so rather than debate about those issues based on facts, they use insults against those who have the BALLS to debate like adults.

...the hypocrisy is mind blowing...
"For transpeople, using the right pronoun is NOT simply a 'political correctness' issue. It's core to the entire struggle transpeople go through. Using the wrong pronoun means 'I don't recognize you as who you are.' It means 'I think you're confused, delusional, or mentally I'll.'. It means 'you're not important enough for me to acknowledge your struggle.'"
  •  

Isabelle

Lol, the maid beat me to it.  The "do as I say, not as I do" rule is in full effect.
  •  

JennX

Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 02, 2013, 10:18:47 PM
....there is no evidence for this claim, just a personal (and very intimate) smear against the vehicle in question.

Not sure about the truck thing... But I've dated plenty of guys with expensive sports cars, with less than impressive packages. And the "I've got something to prove attitude." YMMV.
"If you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain."
-Dolly Parton
  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora,


"Different strokes for different folks !" And that's what makes the world go round...

It would seem those of whom you talk about have gone from Dysphoria to Euphoria  from one extreme to the other, but after a while they should find their equilibrium, and settle down... And if not.... So what... as long as they are happy and not harming anybody, let the euphoria flow...

Metta Zenda :)

"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Isabelle

I should probably thank Beth for demonstrating the point I was making with my earlier comment.
Thanks dollsie x
  •  

StellaB

At the risk of cross-posting...

Nobody gets to be born a woman or a man. It takes a childhood, puberty and a lengthy process of socialization.

Most trans people don't have a comparable amount of time or support from others - we're still waiting for society to accept us on a par with everyone else.

Transitioning or spending time ICGR (my invention, 'in correct gender role) is both about learning stuff you have to work out by trial and error whilst also unlearning lots of stuff from your conditioning.

Everyone has to start somewhere.

I don't see caricatures, I see stereotypes.

I could ask a similar question. Why do some trans people feel that our community needs our own Taliban? Whatever happened to freedom of personal expression and giving people the benefit of the doubt?

Addressed to no one, I'm just curious.
"The truth within me is more than the reality which surrounds me."
Constantin Stanislavski

Mistakes not only provide opportunities for learning but also make good stories.
  •  

Tristan

I think it's a good question. Maybe it's just there style. I mean I'm a weird girl so I watch too. I have my super girly days too but I have to say part of it no matter if your trans or not is from day to day you can express yourself in different ways rather it be a dress down day or girly girl day. Don't worry about some of the post, your question is fine and we are all learning. :)
  •  

MadelineB

I assume the original poster didn't mean anything hurtful or judgmental with her choice of language (we don't all have the same language or cultural background - including age and where we grew up).

Rephrasing of the question:
I have noticed that many people that I think are transgender women present in what I consider to be a hyperfeminine or stereotypically feminine manner, to the extent that it may hinder their passability (in a culture that no longer favors hyper feminine women). What are their reasons for this? I just don't get it, because that is NOT my style, and passability is very important to me. Can anyone help me to understand? I'm not trying to judge anyone, just trying to figure out why they aren't dressing and acting and speaking more like what is typical for women in today's white American middle class society where I grew up and live.

My answer:
1. Never assume that presentation isn't intentional. Take a walk in the lesbian/bisexual part of the woods, and you will discover a wide range of presentation that is completely normal. From stone butch to high femme and beyond. That choice is personal, and when women feel free to express themselves, they may land anywhere on that spectrum.
Is it fair to deny femme transwomen their most comfortable expression because they would blend in better as women if they aimed for the average femmeness-butchness?
Definitely, if passing is very important to a woman, they may chose to tone down their femmeness to something that is less than what they feel is ideal for them, because it helps them to achieve their other goal of being seen as non-trans.
Not all trans women care about passing as much as they care about being true to their inner sense of gender expression.

2. Gender Queer. It exists. It is a respectable and dignified way to live. Don't be a hater, and if you aren't a hater, please try not to come across as the police of the gender binary (attacking the middle or either end). If your advice isn't asked for, by someone you believe is violating gender norms, then your advice isn't wanted. Respect that. Move on. Yay diversity.

3. Age matters. Just as it was considered freakish 40 years ago for a woman to act as butch as the typical woman presents today, it may be considered freakish by some young people today to present as femme as the typical woman did 40 years ago. Guess what: I am 45 years old, and I formed my imprint of what feels normal for a woman's presentation 40 years ago. It is natural for my sense of 'normal' to be further out on the femme end of the femme-butch spectrum that a woman who was 5 years old only 20 or 15 years ago. My femme fashion plate may be your ultra femme caricature of a woman. If you are under 25, you probably don't want to see what I consider ultra femme. Yee hah! LADIES!!! I haven't been continually adjusting my presentation as female for 40 years, gradually adjusting to the changes in society. I'm still that little girl dying to dress like a girl and finally getting my chance. It will take me a while to catch up.

That said, there is a huge variety of gender expressions at all ages for trans as well as cis women; generalizations are just that, generalizations.

4. It's the brain, baby. Science is unanimous that transsexuality comes from the brain. Science has already observed that on the femme-butch spectrum, some varieties of intersex conditions are marked by a very strong tendency towards hyperfeminity (others towards hypermasculinity) to the point that it is one of the clinical signs used for diagnosis. It would be logically consistent to hypothesize that the same applies to transsexuality as to intersex conditions, only more so because not all intersex conditions affect the brain but transsexuality always does. Within the transsexual population, we should see a greater tendency towards extremes in gender expression off of the mean. And based on the original poster's observations, we do see that. Yay science!

5. Some transgender women who don't pass well, may be a little clueless about fashion, and out of touch with unspoken societal norms for women today, or are just lacking in the ability to see oneself through others' eyes and ears. Some of us are naturally very adept, and others it will always be a struggle. Transwomen learn and develop in their gender expressions the same way ciswomen do, over time, through experience, and with constructive feedback from supportive friends and associates. Some of us need that much more than others do. If you can give that help, do, but only if its wanted.

Some women are indeed unfashionable, clueless, or out of touch with societal norms; it is normal for them. I am a natural geek/nerd/dork, like all of the women in my family, so being unfashionable, clueless, and out of touch with societal norms is part of WHO I AM.

I also have only presented female for a year and a half now so far, so even though I get compliments almost every day about my personal style, outfits, hair, etcetera, I am still learning and getting better through practice and with the help of constructive feedback from caring people.

That said, femme is part of my natural style; I get compliments by dear lesbians and gay friends who appreciate femme, and eye rolls from dear lesbian and gay friends who appreciate butch. "I would so go for you if you wouldn't be such a freaking girl!". Thanks!

Warning: Bullying usually takes the form of people who are fashionable, have a clue, and are in touch with societal norms, judging and belittling the people who aren't.

Older people have experienced more bullying (over time) and seen more death and destruction caused by bullying (over time) on average, so on average we are more sensitive to it. This isn't political correctness; this is life and death for some very fragile people who come to a support site for support. So please understand, if you post something innocently and a bunch of people jump down your throat for it, well, you might have hurt someone's feelings, or a lot of someones'. It happens. I've done it. Doesn't mean you are bad, but it does mean your choice of words could hurt, and if you don't mean to hurt, then modulate your language.

6. Somebody mentioned: cross dressers and pre-transition MTF women. Empathy time here.

Imagine this: you experience gender dysphoria, but are not ready to live as female full time now (or if you are non-binary or male identified, ever). However, you still experience intermittent or constant profound dysphoria that is alleviated temporarily by "getting your girl on". So if you only have 15 minutes or 3 hours, per week or per month, to feel like a woman, you are going to put on every single trick in your book to get all the relief you can in every way you can. If you could wear 7 different forms of undergarments, 19 kinds of makeup, and 29 fashion accessories at the same time, you might because IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER.

You go girl, is all I have to say. More power to you.

7. Different goal than passing. Some women aren't aiming for passing; they are instead trying to ensure that their presentation is feminine enough in ways that they can control, to balance out aspects of their presentation that are extremely masculine that they cannot control, to stay in the zone where people consistently read them as a person who wants to be treated as a woman.
History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.
~Maya Angelou

Personal Blog: Madeline's B-Hive
  •