I've wondered about this. I know I try to get seen as male but always seem to fall short. Yesterday I was misgendered while I thought I looked pretty darn good. I haven't shaved or trimmed my facial hair in a long while yet it still happened. I wonder if this is something that's simply unavoidable. Could it be possible that random strangers still think "girl" after years and years on hormones?

People misgendering you when you have facial hair seems odd. You will need to have a very feminine face in order to be called a woman when you have a beard going on. And from Nygeel's pictures, this is deffo not the case.

Did they take a good look at you? Or was it just a quick look and then they moved on? It seems to me they missed the face part, and maybe based on other features (height?) they assumed you were a woman?

I think they took a good look. I am kinda short but that's about it.

Recent full length pic for body shape
And facial hair

I have no idea why they misgendered you, i can not see anything female on you. And you look male anyway.

Have they seen you as before?

Judging from the pics, most of the facial hair is underneath your chin, and on the side of your face. If they were looking directly at you, and not too closely, they might have missed it.

Your other features are very non-female-ish, though. How they could have misgendered you is beyond me. Maybe they ain't too bright in da head?

You sure look dude to me but you know how clueless some of us are.  Plus I like rocking the gender boat and helping people think about their stereotypes and silly assumptions.  Thanks for being real!

I'm curious: does the same thing happen when you're wearing sunglasses/shades?

I've noticed that one of the last features to change on T is our eyes. That's one of the reasons why I tend to not open my eyes fully: they look a lot softer and more feminine if I do. Try sunglasses, or developing a glare, and see whether that makes any difference. After all, people spend more time looking at your eyes than any other part of your face, so that's what they'll use to gender you.

I've also found that even wearing obviously male earrings can interfere with my attempts to pass, so I don't wear any ear jewellery at the moment. 

I think a big part of it is also where you live. I live out in the sticks where people "ain't herd of dem there transmexuals". Well, they probably have but don't pick out a transman as easy as they would a transwoman. I never get misgendered out here.

When I go to Washington D.C. or even to the local smaller city people have picked up on it a lot more in the past. Luckily for me in the past 14 years of living full time I've only had a handful of bad experiences. It's usually just an honest mistake on their part. In areas with a large GLBT population it just seems that people pick up on gender ques more often.

Yes, one day I'm sure you won't be misgendered any longer. Heck, I heard your voice clip you put on here awhile back and if someone calls you a female as soon as you speak they should stand corrected. 

Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 04, 2013, 11:15:07 AM
I think it probably takes hormones a very long time to do that on their own but, after a certain point low face fat becomes very masculinizing.

Yeah, heavy men tend to carry their weight lower on their face (under the chin) while heavy women carry it more in the cheeks. Or did you mean having a thinner face in general is masculinizing? That's generally true too.

Nygeel, it just takes time. Honestly, to me it looks like your face hasn't finished masculinizing. And you have some more feminine features like the eyes as pointed out and the lips. As you continue to masculinize, you will stop being misgendered. It just takes some people longer than others. It did for me.
You pass better in the second pic. I think it's your expression in the first pic.

Both the forum picture and the tumblr picture make it clear to me that you have a fem face. The roundness, the tiny, thin eyebrows, it looks like you either have a small mouth or are pursing your lips to create that illusion.

I've got a round face, thin eyebrows, and a tiny mouth. It's incredibly frustrating and I'm hoping that T will at least help my brows to thicken. I fully expect people to misgender me for a while until I can lose almost 100 pounds.

@rexyrex Nope, these are complete strangers.

@Mr.X I don't know...it's just frustrating because this does happen too often for my liking. It depends on how often I go out but it's about once a week.

@FTMDiaries I wear prescription glasses and can't have contacts so I'm not able to wear sunglasses in any situation other than taking a picture. I don't wear any jewlery outside of my plugs...and if I'm wearing french cuffs, cuff links...maybe a collar pin or tie bar.

@Simon Although I don't live in the middle of nowhere, I do live in an area that's fairly conservative. As far as I'm aware (based on my experiences) nobody has any idea of what a trans man is...or maybe a very very small select few people do. I say this because it's really difficult to find people who know anything about 'em.

@Not-so Fat Admin Lips don't really masculinize. I have very full lips that aren't very wide. Some guys just have this feature (trans or cis). I wonder, is expression enough to change it for people? Should I just always look angry? It's just frustrating because at 2.5 years on T it's still a problem.

@randomroads I have a small mouth, and my eyebrows have thickened a bit from T. I still don't have visible arm hair (unless it's in a very specific type of light).

I wear prescription glasses too... ironically, with Transitions lenses (so the lenses are clear when indoors but they darken significantly when I'm outdoors). I get 'sirred' all the time when outdoors but 'ma'amed' all the time when indoors.

Masculine eyes look harder; feminine eyes look softer. You & I both have relatively soft eyes atm.

If you're unable to wear sunglasses, you might want to practise hardening your expression until the T further masculinises your eyes. Give it a shot & see if it makes any difference.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 04, 2013, 01:11:10 PM

@Not-so Fat Admin Lips don't really masculinize. I have very full lips that aren't very wide. Some guys just have this feature (trans or cis). I wonder, is expression enough to change it for people? Should I just always look angry? It's just frustrating because at 2.5 years on T it's still a problem.

Well, the lips won't be so overpowering as the rest continues to change. I wonder if it's a face fat distribution issue. Have you seen much fat redistribution everywhere else?

I know, it sounds awful to always be trying to look angry or like a poser (you know those faces guys pull in pics). I hated those kind of passing tips. I wonder if somehow it could be mannerisms/demeanor which is coming through (in person and in the pic). Even if you had pretty masculine mannerisms for a girl and still do - sometimes there's still vestiges of years of trying to live as female. You know, you could be masculine overall and have one or two small things you're unaware of that make you come off female. I know when I was mostly passing all the time I got misgendered a couple times by older ladies of a certain ethnicity. Not to stereotype or anything, but they were the only ones who ever misgendered me at that point. I think they were picking up on something nobody else could see. What that was, I don't know.  Does it seem to be the same type of people misgendering you (a certain age, race, gender, orientation, etc)? Again, not to stereotype, but I think somehow different groups pick up on different gender cues. 

Overall, I think it's a combination of features getting you misgendered. Like any one on its own - the lips, eyes, cheeks (there are guys with huge cheeks), mannerisms, demeanor, etc. isn't a problem in itself. But taken altogether it adds up.

My fat has redistributed...a lot. I used to have a bit of a butt now I have to use a belt or my jeans will fall right off me. And the fat in my face has changed A LOT.

4 days on T
Today

I never lived my life as a girl or a woman. I wore "boy clothes" almost exclusively and was a bit of a jerk about what I wore and how I acted since I was maybe 7. I never tried to be a girl, I cried when I was 5 and had to take pictures in a dress. I get misgendered by gay men a lot...beyond that there's not much of a regular pattern.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 04, 2013, 11:29:35 AM
I think they took a good look. I am kinda short but that's about it.

Recent full length pic for body shape
And facial hair

Do you always wear the glasses?  For me, that's the one thing that would make me want to use a female pronoun or just confuse the hell out of me.  But without them I don't see any female about you. 

It could be that it's the glasses that are throwing others off.  Otherwise, I'm not certain.  Could it be stance or body posture? 

Quote from: A. G. Bheur on May 04, 2013, 03:24:40 PM
Do you always wear the glasses?  For me, that's the one thing that would make me want to use a female pronoun or just confuse the hell out of me.  But without them I don't see any female about you. 

It could be that it's the glasses that are throwing others off.  Otherwise, I'm not certain.  Could it be stance or body posture?

I can't see without them.

Admittedly, I'm a little confused on that as well. You seem to be quite hairy; even with lowish quality pictures, it's obvious that you've got a lot of facial hair. You'd think that people would stop and think "Oh, women don't generally have beards, so this is probably a dude."

However, I think that your face looks a bit feminine. I imagine it'll fix itself eventually, but it might not. The only thing that I can think to suggest is weight loss; that will definitely help speed up the process.

I mean, the only other things I can think of would be your voice and mannerisms. Since I have no idea what you sound like or how you carry yourself, it's hard to say if those affect it. But I imagine your voice is probably pretty low at this point, if you've been on T for years.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 04, 2013, 03:10:16 PMMy fat has redistributed...a lot. I used to have a bit of a butt now I have to use a belt or my jeans will fall right off me. And the fat in my face has changed A LOT.

4 days on T
Today

Yeah, you definitely look a lot more male in the second pic. Maybe you'll continue to masculinize in the face. Your eyes have changed a lot (not themselves but the way they're set. Mine did this too.)

QuoteI never lived my life as a girl or a woman. I wore "boy clothes" almost exclusively and was a bit of a jerk about what I wore and how I acted since I was maybe 7. I never tried to be a girl, I cried when I was 5 and had to take pictures in a dress. I get misgendered by gay men a lot...beyond that there's not much of a regular pattern.

That's not what I mean. You could be the most masculine guy in the world, more masculine than any cis guy and still have effects from being AFAB and gendered female most your life. It could be something as subtle as the way you look at people when talking to them, body language when dealing with people, how far away you stand from them, the way you walk (possibly from having hips most your life), the way you pronounce certain words, etc, etc. - either biological stuff or stuff you learned subconsciously as people reacted to you growing up. Who knows what it could be, I'm just guessing. Gendering someone happens in a split second and is probably based on a million subconscious little cues that were important back in the day when you had to decide in an a instant if the person approaching was a threat or someone to kidnap. 

And now it's subconscious stuff in people's heads as they gender you. It's nothing that's going to clock you if you pass well, but along with other cues it could contribute. Once the cues tip firmly on the male side to people, the little stuff won't matter.

Have you asked any trusted friends around you? Maybe there's some mannerisms or something they can see. There is something in the first pic - but can't put my finger on it or if it's something you can change.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on May 04, 2013, 04:21:25 PM

Have you asked any trusted friends around you? Maybe there's some mannerisms or something they can see. There is something in the first pic - but can't put my finger on it or if it's something you can change.

I don't really have many friends. They don't know what gets me misgendered, they've seen me as I identify since I've been out to them for such a long time.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 04, 2013, 04:28:16 PM

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on May 04, 2013, 04:21:25 PM

Have you asked any trusted friends around you? Maybe there's some mannerisms or something they can see. There is something in the first pic - but can't put my finger on it or if it's something you can change.

I don't really have many friends. They don't know what gets me misgendered, they've seen me as I identify since I've been out to them for such a long time.

Well, don't get discouraged. I know how difficult it can be when you've been on T forever, and still not passing enough. It took me awhile, but one day it changed and I passed everywhere. Hey, if all else fails, is there any baldness in your family? Grow a big bald patch and you'll never be misgendered again.