Kia Ora,

It must be quite difficult for some cis-people who come across a trans-identifiable person, especially when some trans-people are just finding their feet ie, when starting their RLE going out in public and experimenting with clothing etc, whilst waiting for the HRT to kick in and create some physical changes ...

Is it any wonder when some cis-people stare and pass comments, or use the wrong pronoun or mistaking ones identity not really knowing how they should react when interacting with a person whose birth sex is still quite obvious but they are wearing the clothing of their opposite birth sex...

I'm not saying it's ok, or it's right for them to do this, I'm just putting myself in the cis-gender person's shoes...

A couple of weeks ago I was working with a colleague, we were discussing one of the clients (it turns out this person is transgender and is at the beginning of her transition) anyway my colleague mention that 'he' looks like a '->-bleeped-<-',  she said when she was young she use to work in an area where there were lots of 'drag-queens' and '->-bleeped-<-s' hung out and 'he' reminded her of the ->-bleeped-<-s she used to see...She went on to say it was not the way 's/he' dress but her facial feature and her mannerisms that reminded her...

She was not being derogatory in any way, she just was not informed of the modern day terms, in fact she's very open minded and accepting of diversity...I just let her know that this person was transgender and explained what it meant...
It would seem there are many cis-people who are not familiar with the terms transgender-transsexual-gender dysphoria..
they just lump all gender non conforming (or gender variant)  people in the same 'old fashion' basket-using old terms that are familiar to them...

I should point out only a couple of my colleagues at work know of my past, the colleague I worked with on that day didn't know...

So should we give cis-gender people a little slack ? bearing in mind some might be open and accepting but are not enlighten when it comes to the new terminology... What do you think ?

Metta Zenda    

I have to agree when it come to terms when they just don't know, but when I see the problem is when they are clearly being rude. Like you said if they just don't know what pronouns to use then I see that as okay. I think they should use the ones that a person's outside dress depicts. Now being rude is not okay under any circumstances.

Quote from: Bookworm on May 22, 2013, 02:59:13 AM
I have to agree when it come to terms when they just don't know, but when I see the problem is when they are clearly being rude. Like you said if they just don't know what pronouns to use then I see that as okay. I think they should use the ones that a person's outside dress depicts. Now being rude is not okay under any circumstances.

Kia Ora Bookworm,

It would be nice if we could all be respectful and address a person according to their dress sense, but then one still has the problem of the androgynously/unisex dressed trans-person...

Can you see how confusing it must be for the poor uninformed cis-person 

Metta Zenda

I can indeed. Like I said though as long as the people honestly don't know what do say then I feel like getting mad at them is pointless. If they slip and say the wrong thing just correct them. If they are being rude on purpose then go about the situation as you see best. Some would say retaliate, while others would say walk away. I say it depends on the person and the situation.

Yeah, I agree. They can be tiresome at times, when they AGAIN misgender you, or ask 'stupid' questions (which are totally nuts from our POV, but completely logical and sane from theirs), but yes, I understand where they are coming from. I understand the whole concept of transgenders is kind of hard to grasp for cisgender people, as their gender is just obvious for them. Like the obvious of all obvious.

I think that maybe a lot of 'cisgenders' might actually be trans, like when I was a teenager (say 14/15) I felt like my body was wrong, etc. but I just dismissed it as 'impossible' and 'crazy', because gender was such an obvious thing, right? I simply thought gender was equal to BIOLOGICAL gender and couldn't be different from what you were born with, I was just a tomboy, a masculine, non-stereotypical girl, because the "GIRL" part was 'set in stone', sorta.
So I identified as cisgender, but only because I didn't know it was even POSSIBLE to be transgender.

When I was a kid I used the terms "girl-girl" "boy-girl", "boy-boy" and "girl-boy", with which the last word was meant to represent the physical appearance/body, and the other the mental identity/'gender feeling'. Now in hindsight I see that was my own way to sort of describe 'transgender' to myself without knowing the 'real' words, etc. (though I also used the term 'girl-boy' for example to describe feminine boys, which could also have been gay or just generally feminine instead of trans, etc.)

It depends on the situation and intention to me. Like, for example, generally it is considered kind of inappropriate to use "transgender" as a noun. This can be seen as a bit dehumanizing and othering, like saying "a gay." And then the combination with crediting cisgender folks as "people," but not bothering to with transgender further adds to the issue. So if I were to see that in a text, I'd probably flag it and suggest "transgender person" or "transgender individual" (I'm an editor).

However, given that you are talking within the community, you are trans yourself, and your tone is appropriate, I normally wouldn't bother mentioning it. I'm only pointing to it now as an example of how "appropriate language" can be flexible depending on the situation. In a book that is going to be read by thousands of people and potentially shift how people use language, I'd want it to be pretty perfect. It's part of what frustrates me about the poor quality of most newspapers in dealing with trans folks, because to do their jobs properly, they really SHOULD know better.

But random cis person off the street? No, I don't expect them to be perfect. I just expect them to be correctable and not presumptuous. If I explain an issue politely and get an eyeroll or equivalent, that's when I lose interest in them as a human. That said, it's not wildly common that I talk to cis people about trans things outside of work, and editors tend to be on the ball with this stuff, so it's rarely much effort to fix anything.

I'll claim we've done a poor job of educating the cis community.

Sure we could say "shouldn't they educate themselves?" But it's the person who's complaining that has the greatest incentive to solve the problem, and cis folks ain't complaining.

During the civil rights era, and during the early years of the women's movement, people of color and women didn't wait for men and white folk to educate themselves. They spread the word.

We've let a largely ignorant media tell our story for us. A lot of the info people have about transgender comes from sensationalized news stories and fictional portrayals. We can rail against those portrayals, but it's really not their job to educate people. It's ours.

So I don't fault cis folks for thinking we're sexual fetishists, for not realizing we're wired this way, for thinking that we're doing it to get the "advantages" of the other gender, and certainly not for failing to use correct language.

It's difficult to tell someone who is merely uninformed from someone who is hostile. Until they're well-informed, just about anyone will sound like a transphobe.

Now those who after being informed, remain transphobic and disrespectful, those are the people worthy of our derision and scorn.

You can't educate those who don't want to be educated or don't care. I've found that those who care to learn ask reasonable questions, force feeding those who don't care isn't going to help anyone at all.  And keep in mind that not all trans people agree on things, so what is taught by one could be quite different than what is taught by another.

And also, so long as some trans people willingly participate in some of those poor media portrayals, then those portrayals are going to look pretty darned believable to your average cis person.

I've been learning about transgender things for over three decades and I still get confused now and then. You can't really except someone who has little interest or motivation to understand much about it. Most people want to pigeonhole everyone into a simple and familiar role so they can stop thinking about it and go on to thinking about other things.

I'm a person who would be happy to live pretty much androgynously, but this is not an easy thing for the public at large to understand so I tend to present myself as more one gender or the other to strangers. With friends who I know understand and accept who I am, I don't always bother with that.

~ Lyric ~

Quote from: Renee on May 22, 2013, 08:01:28 AM
You can't educate those who don't want to be educated or don't care. I've found that those who care to learn ask reasonable questions, force feeding those who don't care isn't going to help anyone at all. And keep in mind that not all trans people agree on things, so what is taught by one could be quite different than what is taught by another.

And also, so long as some trans people willingly participate in some of those poor media portrayals, then those portrayals are going to look pretty darned believable to your average cis person.

Kia Ora Renee,

This is so true and has caused a lot of unrest in the trans-community plus not to mention spreading misinformation to the wider community...

If asked about trans-people I'll normally say things along the line of "Different strokes for different folks!"  no two paths are exactly the same...

Metta Zenda

BTW Sarah @ English was not my best subject at school,[and maths came a close second] and I know how annoying it can be for some members for whom 'incorrect' grammar  can be liken to the teacher accidentally scraping the blackboard with her finger nails...  When even just reading the last sentence I'm sure some members will start to cringe 

Quote from: Kuan Yin on May 22, 2013, 02:53:35 AM

So should we give cis-gender people a little slack ? bearing in mind some might be open and accepting but are not enlighten when it comes to the new terminology... What do you think ?

Metta Zenda    

Well, it depends on my mood, if I am in my period all they are going to get is a big bitching session on political correctness. All they need to know is I am a woman, they should address me like one, and mind their own damn business.

However, if they get me in one of my sweet moments, say after I have been canoodling with my boyfriend,  well then they will get the "Dr. Peky guide to gender and sexual differentiation speech

LOL, Kia Ora

I informed my boss last Friday. During our 45 minute conversation he asked to give him some slack if he made mistakes and asked for a book. I dropped off:

Whipping Girl,
She is Not There,
My Gender Work Book ( OH MY GODDESS, what was I thinking),

this afternoon. He has a very open mind and is a nice person. If he made a mistake I would give him slack, the rope and the ship attached. When welcomed I welcome back.

Whats missing in this world are patience and understanding, on both sides of the proverbial fence.

We need to be understanding of their ignorance (as innocent as it may be) and be patient that theyll catch on and give us the respect we deserve.

If we can educate and show them we arent the wierdos media makes us out to be, im hopefull we can all be accepted for however we wish to identify as. maybe im overly hopeful..but Someones gotta be otherwise nothing will change.

I will always give kind hearted people room to learn.

Yes YES a THOUSAND times yes.

This is something that I often fall out with others in the "Trans-community" I see it all the time other transwomen(especially) Getting so wound up in knots when someone misidentifies a person or points out a particular irony or heaven forbid a joke... the reaction can be SO OTT it just makes me want to facepalm.
I think it's pretty easy to identify when someone is naive (or trying to be smart and just weren't) and when someone is begin a dick, you have to be trying to hurt me to actually hurt me. Seriously laughing it off or responding with a funny remark when someone asks you a stupid question nets you so many more allies than begin snippy and upset with the person, because it puts others at ease.

Just running through some of the comments, it seems like most people just say it's only/mostly cis people who get confused or use the wrong pronouns.

Since coming onto Susan's I've been more confused than ever with people, since now it's like is it a "hir" or a "hen" or a "she" or a "he"? etc. I don't know what to call people who seem to be gender non-conforming at all anymore, and it's not like I always have the opportunity to just ask. For example, back in March or April, I met a person at a function (I was in girl-mode so I didn't appear gender non-conforming) and met someone who appeared to be FAAB but had a male name and was wearing a suit but had female style glasses on and a female style short-haircut, didn't appear to be on hormones. Trans? Butch? Genderqueer?  Andro? Who knows? It seems like there's a ton of more categories I've never even heard of that keeps popping up. And, presenting as female at a function, it didn't seem the right place to just start a conversation on the trans umbrella. I just avoided having to say "he" or "she" the whole time in order to avoid misgendering this person and causing embarrassment and/or offense.

I think everyone needs a little slack, unless of course the person is clearly being rude or intentionally ignorant/offensive. I think most of us can at least somewhat tell if we're fully passing or not, and I think it's to be expected that we'll get misgendered (at least until hormones and/or surgery really kicks in). When I go out in "male mode" I know people are going to just think I am a butch lesbian, so it doesn't bother me if people call me "she". I know I'd call myself a "she" if I were them. As someone who is LGBT, I figure if I get confused, then I should expect cis-people to be confused as well.

I think people can get educated on this and will take it is offered nicely. I am pretty surprised sometimes how accepting people are, but they often do use the wrong terms and so on. I've heard people in the trans community use the term "transgender" as a noun, so I can't be too terribly upset with that one (haven't heard it in the cis-community actually).

I actually was sitting in a lab for my blood test and heard these guys who would be interacting with me doing some heavy handed ->-bleeped-<- type joking. It was kind of loud and obnoxious, and I was a bit worried, but they treated me with respect. I am pretty sure they knew I was a trans as I went in for T levels and a female name on my card. I think some guys, anyway, are doing this kind of joking to relieve stress about feelings they might have about being less than masculine. They might have joked about me when I left, but I don't think they did. I think it was personal. Not sure if a transwoman would have the same experience but my girl friend (who is trans) claims to have never been treated impolitely.

BTW, I've seen people I think might be transguys. OTOH, they could just as well have been butch.

--Jay

I'm more than willing to teach people who ask or are curious, but I don't think it's my responsibility (or any trans*person's) to educate cis-people. Surely there is a situational aspect, but when cis-people say something that is ignorant or down right transphobic they should be called on it whether or not it was their intention to offend. Cis-people being entitled to ignorance is called privilege and it's not a good thing. I don't think we should give cis-folk slack because they don't get us or have little exposure to trans*people; every time we let misgendering or the occasional "tr*nny" get by we tell cis-people that its okay to to treat us like crap (btw it's not).

I think Asher at tranarchism sums it up pretty well http://tranarchism.com/2011/09/19/an-education/

cis-privilege is inexcusable

When people make mistakes it is not a problem,  nobody is perfect and I can accept that there are people out there who do not pass yet and are going to get mis-gendered the first time they walk out. BUT the second time we meet you don't need to be told.

and when I see and officer and they mess up over and over and over, it is like didn't you also take a sensitivity training class and have to pass a test on this? You are doing this on purpose I can get angry now

It is the same with a lot of religious conservatives, you can tell, they are looking at you and deciding that they are going to call you for what they want to because of what they believe,

Kia Ora and thanks for the responses,

I agree that one must correct a cis-person if they make a mistake-just like you would correct anybody who makes a mistake out of ignorance ie, because they didn't know any different...However if it is deliberate ie, they know how you would like to be addressed but 'refuse' to address you as such...Getting into a verbal and or fist fight, is not going to solve the issue at hand(unless you are bigger than the other person and beat them into submission or a pulp "Only joking")...

If a person's mind is set on calling you by your birth sex/name, there's not much you can do about it, you either have to grin and bear it, or stop associating with them...They are not worth spending any time trying to re-educate "A bigot's mind is like the pupil of the eye-The more light one shines upon it-The more it will contract!"  they just don't want to be 'saved' and in some cases they misguidedly 'believe' they are doing the right thing by addressing you as your birth sex, in their narrow mind, they are trying to save 'you' from the fires of hell -ironically a hell of 'their' own making-they make your life hell by misgendering you...

I have also misgendered other trans-people even when I know they are trans, I quickly correct my mistake...But some times it can be quite difficult when the trans-person is not presenting as their preferred gender identity and you're in mixed company having a conversation with both cis and trans people...

My old landlady once told me that when she lived in Wellington ( NZ's capital city) when walking down the road at night, if she saw some trans-women walking towards her, she would cross the road 'fearing' for her safety...She felt quite intimidated by them...Again she's quite open and accepting of difference, but still felt uncomfortable in situations like this...
Metta Zenda