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Living Stealth - To Tell or not to Tell?

Started by Rose Dawson, June 04, 2005, 06:14:43 AM

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Rose Dawson

I know this is a question thats been posed (and answered) by many different websites, usually written by well-known authors in our community, but I wanted to try and get a different perspective on this topic.

You may think it odd of me to ask such a question ??? (considering my first-ever visit to a gender therapist will be next Friday) but this does indeed affect how I'll view transition and life after SRS.

So, without further adue, here's my question: Why do we have to tell anyone (our lovers, employer, etc.) of our SRS? After SRS, we'll be a woman [or man!] in every sense of the word and no one will be the wiser - as such, why would we want to or possess the need to, inform anyone? What risks are there in not disclosing our past? What risks are there in doing so?
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kitten

written from an MtF point of view, somebody else will have to present the FtM take on this problem, sorry.

well, apart from the problem of being inadequately socialised as women, which means we shed clues like dandruff, we lack childhoods as women, and most of us transitioned after puberty, which means that we are not convincing when GGs get together and make light chit-chat about their first date, their first menses, learning about men, and so on.

with men we have no formal history to refer to, and our responses are not typical, which can be dangerous, especially if we run into people we knew before transition who recognise us.

then we have to recognise that we no longer are considered first class citizens, and women are often treated like ->-bleeped-<-, which few of us can buy into, and impels many of us to examine feminist thought, perhaps less sceptically than before, when we recognise that the binary Gender Roles (that this society insists upon) are rubbish, and this makes us insist on fair treatment and equal opportunity, as is appropriate in a democracy.

finally, darling, our sad lives, transition, and new joys are something we need to share, and while it is good to talk in places like this, to our peers, eventually we need to hold our heads up with dignity and pride, and our maternal instincts impel us to help our younger colleagues, whether younger in age or maturity, as others have helped us, and to try to make the world a safer, kinder place for everyone.

XXX OOO
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4years

I really can't comment on why not to tell as I've long ago decided to tell.

I am me.
This includes my past, my present and my future.

I want to know up front if someone can deal with me, being ... ME.

I'm not a fan of deception, and I am not fond of hiding secrets.

I prefer to be honest and open... and if that gets me killed, well that works too.



Kitten mentioned responses not being typical.. Mine never have been. I have always been the odd one out and am stinking proud of that. I am NOT normal nor have I ever had a desire to be. In this vein were I a gg I'd been that odd hen no one can quite understand. Frankly I don't think it will be any different, save they will peg me in the TG category and attribute my strangeness to that. They are wrong but such as it goes.

I often hear how life is so much easier for a man. I don't see this. I never have. I've always had to prove I was capable, it was never assumed. *snicker* when it was assumed they've been wrong anyway. Although it is possible I've been blind; I really don't think so.  In this vein I don't think life will be any different for me, stealth or not.
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beth_finallyme

First I'll say, i hope we are all so fortunate that are appearance will not tell our story before we have a chance to.

If we have a need from inside to tell, then we should share and not keep it secret. Most of us know how damaging that can be.

Everyone does not need to know. If we tell every person we chat with for 5 min on the bus, then all of our conversations and experiences will be about TS/SRS topics and we will not truly experience living in our gender. People we see on a daily basis should eventually know if they matter to us at all.

When we become close friends i do think it is necessary to tell. It is because people consider hiding this information a betrayal. So not disclosing risks losing friends.

I believe anyone we date should know. It should not be this way, but our existance disturbs some to the point of violence. I do not think it is wise to be in a dating situation, even pre intimate with someone who does not know. I wouldnt want to date anyone who could not accept what i have been thru, so it would not be limiting in any way.

One point i would make is, i dont think this has anything to do with SRS, it has to do with the ability to look and act in ways people accept as being female (male). Whether or not you have had SRS is no ones business except those that will be actually interacting with the parts affected IMO.


beth
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Leigh

Quote from: Rose Dawson on June 04, 2005, 06:14:43 AM


  Why do we have to tell anyone (our lovers, employer, etc.) of our SRS? After SRS, we'll be a woman [or man!] in every sense of the word and no one will be the wiser - as such, why would we want to or possess the need to, inform anyone? What risks are there in not disclosing our past? What risks are there in doing so?

You don't have to divulge any surgery although at times it may be beneficial.  An example is the infamous bathroom issue.  If there is a problem with using the appropiate facilities. and your employer knows, having the correct genetalia may alleviate some of the issues that peeps have.

On many employment applications there is a line for previous names used.  This has to be completed truthfully.  If not then it can be a cause later for dismissal, justified by lying on the form.

One thing that can be done to help with this is to send by registered mail a copy of your court ordered name change to your previous employers.  This alone is usually enough to have your records changed to reflect the correct name.  My name is now on records that go back to 1985.  Few employers will go back that far.

If a person is pre and dating, there will always be the chance of abuse and violence even if the details are known.  It appears to me that violence is confined to men reacting to a pre woman even if her physical status is known.  Moreso if it comes as a suprise in a more intimate moment.  I have not heard of that happening with another woman. They would most likely cut you to pieces with their tongue.

If I plan to date someone I have no choice but to be honest.  The womens community here is so interconnected that everyone knows someone else who knows you or has dated someone that you have dated.  I would not have my past disclosed and put her in a potentially embarassing spot.  I replied to a personals ad in a local W4W list.  We wrote back and forth, met for coffee and went to a movie.  The funny thing is that we have known each other for about 2 years, drank beer together, played pool and never connected on a personal level.  After we went out I wrote her that night explaining what has happend so that she could make a choice wether to continue or not.  this is a censored version of her reply
QuoteI honestly did not know that you were M2F, but it makes no impact on me. You're a sweet gal

What was has no relationship to what is.

Leigh






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Dennis

As an FTM and knowing the current state of surgery, I would have to tell anyone I dated, so that's not an issue.

In the larger picture, though, I just don't like anyone having anything they can hold over me. I feel like if I have a secret, I give people power over me, power to discover it and put me in an awkward spot, or power to disclose it when it's not under my control.

I don't see announcing that I'm FTM when I go and buy milk at the corner store, but being casual and open about it in general seems much easier to me. I have enough trouble editing myself for social propriety, I can't imagine adding to that burden by having to edit everything I said to disguise the fact that I grew up as a girl and spent much of my adult life in a female body.

Dennis
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Susan

I am an informed consent type person. I believe if you date more than once you should tell the person. Especially before you become intimate. Not just about having had srs surgery before that. If you know you are a TS then you should tell them about you. They have the right to know and you have the responsiblity to tell them. Yes they might leave but then again it might make no difference. If it does then they are probally not the kind of person you would want in your life anyway.
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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Sandi

Donna Rose has some thoughts on "Stealth." And more.

I don't care if another TS is stealth or not, but when friends I have, feel that they are helping by letting everyone know that I'm TS, it really pisses rubs me the wrong way.


Sandi
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Susan

Quote from: Sandi on June 04, 2005, 03:06:19 PMBut when friends I have, feel that they are helping by letting everyone know that I'm TS

No that is wrong you should be the one to tell anyone if you are TS or not. But at the same time you shouldn't hide it either. I am not saying you do mind you.
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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Sandi

I don't hide it, but I'm perfectly happy that most assume I'm female. If I get read that's life, but I will never go out of my way to let anyone know (good reasons excepted) that I'm TS.


Sandi
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Rose Dawson

Quote from: Sandi on June 04, 2005, 04:40:08 PM
If I get read that's life, but I will never go out of my way to let anyone know (good reasons excepted) that I'm TS.
Everyone has a lot of good thoughts and view points, all of which are equally valid. However, I tend to feel the same way Sandi does: I'm not going to go out of my way to expose my past - IMO, it's none of anyone's business who I am or who I was, until I make it such.

Quote from: kitten on June 04, 2005, 06:53:48 AMwe lack childhoods as women, and most of us transitioned after puberty, which means that we are not convincing when GGs get together and make light chit-chat about their first date, their first menses, learning about men, and so on.
This is very true, Kitten. By not disclosing who we are, we may find it very difficult to socialize as women and in the long run, may cause even more problems for ourselves by engaging in conversation we have no first-hand experience of.

Quote from: Susan on June 04, 2005, 02:27:08 PM
I believe if you date more than once you should tell the person. Especially before you become intimate. Not just about having had srs surgery before that. If you know you are a TS then you should tell them about you. They have the right to know and you have the responsiblity to tell them.
Susan, I understand your view point entirely but if we have all the right "parts" as a woman, act like a woman, essentially erased our history as a man (and as Beth said: i hope we are all so fortunate that are appearance will not tell our story before we have a chance to  :) then, wherein lies the necessity to disclose ourselves?

Finally, when it comes to others disclosing the fact that your TS, without your consent, I find this just tactless and vicious. As some of you may have read from my other postings, I recently just told my family that I'm TS. At the time, my mom had very kind and accepting words. Since then, I've found out that she's told the rest of my family, before I even had the chance. How thoughtful of her  :icon_rolleyes2:
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Sandi

Quote
QuoteQuote from: kitten on Today at 06:53:48 AM
we lack childhoods as women, and most of us transitioned after puberty, which means that we are not convincing when GGs get together and make light chit-chat about their first date, their first menses, learning about men, and so on.
QuoteThis is very true, Kitten. By not disclosing who we are, we may find it very difficult to socialize as women and in the long run, may cause even more problems for ourselves by engaging in conversation we have no first-hand experience of.

Reminds me of one time going through the grocery checkout. There was no men in the line, and the checker and bagger (both quite young) were discussing how old they were when they developed. The lady behind me chimmed in with her age of bloom, then all eyes turned to me.

The unasked question was plain to see on there faces and I really felt the pressure to come up with an honest answer, but was hard pressed to say "In my fifties."   ::)  But I quickly recovered and my answer was "Oh I was a late bloomer," which was of course true, but was happy that they didn't push for just how late.


Sandi
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Susan

Quote from: Rose Dawson on June 04, 2005, 07:06:24 PM
Susan, I understand your view point entirely but if we have all the right "parts" as a woman, act like a woman, essentially erased our history as a man (and as Beth said: i hope we are all so fortunate that are appearance will not tell our story before we have a chance to  :) then, wherein lies the necessity to disclose ourselves?

No such thing as erasing your past. Are you going to sit there day in and day out with the fear of discovery, of someone who knew you before transition recognizing you. Of the hurt, betrayal, and rejection that someone you love could suffer because you didn't tell them. Are you going to risk physical violence from that same loved one if they have a strong enough reaction from discovering your history.  What would you tell them "I am sorry, but you had no right to know"? Come on get some sense girl.
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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beth_finallyme

Not telling causes another problem. If you are with someone for a period of time, omitting your past would not be the only thing, it would require many lies to replace the missing history. It is a slippery slope, suddenly the whole relationship is based on lies.
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Rose Dawson

I'm not saying I favor one over the other (disclosing or never telling). I'm merely trying to gain a input from others, as they see the ramifications of both.
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Susan

Quote from: Rose Dawson on June 05, 2005, 12:29:22 AM
I'm not saying I favor one over the other (disclosing or never telling). I'm merely trying to gain a input from others, as they see the ramifications of both.

Ok I read your message as advocation of the "Stealth" TS. My mistake. But I stand by my points.
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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Cailyn

Having lived a difficult and unhappy life trying to be male and hiding such an enormous secret most of my life, I have no intention of trading one prison for another.  I won't wear a badge that says I'm "T" but I won't hide it either. 

Cailyn  (fka Dawn)
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4years

Quote from: Sandi on June 04, 2005, 04:40:08 PM
I don't hide it, but I'm perfectly happy that most assume I'm female. If I get read that's life, but I will never go out of my way to let anyone know (good reasons excepted) that I'm TS.
Quote from: Cailyn on June 07, 2005, 05:34:30 AMI won't wear a badge that says I'm "T" but I won't hide it either.

In essence what I was trying to say but both put much more eloquent than I.
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Svetlana

before srs, any time i get romantically involved with somebody in any way (ie. even passing snogs are included), i will take them aside before any of that kind of thing occurs, right from the start, and gently find out, away from earshot of others, if they have a problem with the way i am.  even if it's maybe obvious, i think it's still worth making a point of, because otherwise, in one important way, you are lying to them if you're inticing them romantically and there's a chance they're assuming that you've got the genital arrangement you don't have.

after srs, i am a woman.  i don't care if my childhood memories or automatically-dropped "hints" are atypical or not.  so are lots of other womens'.  if they got called a man, they'd slap you in the face, and so would i (well, verbally, anyway).  if the subjects of life experience do come up in casual conversation, then i'm not going to start making up lies, or awkwardly avoiding the truth either.  i'll just casually say what used to be what.  if my friends can't deal with that then that's their problem and they can get over it or get lost.

on the names form, yeah, i'd have to put my old name down.  i'd treat it as no big deal, just like it should be treated.  luckily for me, though, with my previous name being "james", i can put "jamie" and get away with it without anyone having any reason to call me a liar.  after all, that's what my mum called me. ;D  this is awkward for sure, and i could fully understand somebody with a less fortunate starter name considering different.  not that my starter name is particularly fortunate; it's just fortunate enough.

after srs, i won't consider myself transgendered in any way, and i will no longer be part of that community.  not unless i become a cross-dresser or something; but either way, i will no longer be part of the transsexual community.  but i'll still be bisexual, whatever, so i'll probably continue to frequent whatever LGBT group i might frequent leading up to the surge.

of course i would help other people out going through the things i would've gone through back then, but only if such advice-giving cropped up.  i would not be embarrassed by it but i would not volunteer the information, not even as an interesting thing to talk about with friends.  after i'm all well and good, i want to leave all this behind, just like some overlong bad dream.

people will probably "clock" me because of the size of my feet, whatever "stage" i'm at.  but then they'll just learn that some women have unusually big feet.  and that's not a lie, not even by the wide (and proper) definition of the word that i use = "a deliberate attempt at deception".  it's no deception, it's no excuse - it's true.

to say i was a woman who used to be a man is the thing that would be a lie, whether you talk about gender in terms of genital construction, brain sex, or whatever.  because with any of those definitions, i'm not "really a man", which is what stating "i used to be a man" would mean to vastly most people.  and that's not twisting meanings either, because whatever anyone says in any situation, it's not what you say that counts, but what it means to those listening.  where the twisting meanings occur is with the common misconception where a person would get the information in terms of genital construction, and then interpret it in terms of social gender, or brain sex, or whatever.  that's the misconstruition that occurs, and that's why stating that thing which is "paper-true", is lying.

in simpler terms, a person would take my initial genital construction to mean a male gender.  then that same person would take my later genital construction and instead of letting it mean, in exactly the same way, a female gender, they would ignore it, applying some kind of "time-stamp rule" that doesn't actually effectively exist.  but the illogy lies with the fact that the "masculine information" that they are basing this on is exactly the same as the "feminine information" that they are ignoring.

it's what i've found to be a basic false human instinct that often occurs, applicable in many situations outside of gender issues also, and that's to deny change, either in insisting it won't occur when it well could, or ignoring that it already has.
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Cailyn

I said:  I won't wear a badge that says I'm "T" but I won't hide it either.

Actually, I am wearing a badge that says I'm "T".   Of course, I'm at the Chicago Be-all which has been a fun and interesting experience.  Here, the large number of t-girls, cd's, t-men, etc has left the str8s in the minority in the hotel.  Not many going stealth here.  I did meet one girl who insisted she wasn't trans but sure looked it.

Cailyn
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