ok thats crazy i know..but as a tg guy in a country where gay and trans people get killed and no lgbt rights and i cant have hormones or anything i just do anything possible to make my T natyrally higher i workout like a fool i eat clan diet i keep searching in sites all the day for things help to make testosterone high in my body and last night i was in a bodybuilding site and i saw a pic of cristan celver she is a women bodybuilder but she's 100% look exactly like a male and i star wondring if thats really true i mean is it really possible to look like that without hormones i can't believe that i mean there is a lot of manly bodybuilder womens but not manly as her ...she is one of the reason give me hope to keep working out i keep saying its possible ..do u guys thing its possible to look like that without T or its just a lie from the lies in social media ?

I'm a regular on a bodybuilding site/forums.  I've noticed that while increasing the muscular systems to that extent does have a masculinizing effect on the body, how you present yourself plays a role as well.  A lot of female bodybuilders go the extra mile to feminize themselves.  Hairstyles, makeup, breast implants, 2 piece bathing suits, high heels, etc.  Without all the "extras", many of them are often taken for men, though.

Good luck.

One thing I forgot:  The body fat percentage plays a large role in how masculine a bodybuilder appears.  Generally, you need to get down to a 10% or lower to see the abdominal muscles, for example.  Women's bodies tend to look distinctly different because of the female pattern body fat distribution.  Around the point that you've melted off that *and* lost the excess fat deposits in your face, you begin to look like the *pros* (who, IMO, all look similar regardless of gender).

thnx bro for the reply

There's actually a book called 'the natural testosterone plan for sexual health and energy". It's advertised to cis guys with lower potency, but it has a lot of ways to naturally increase androgen levels. You should see if you can get your hands on a copy.
Oh, you can look it up by ISBN:
9781594771682 (pbk. : alk. paper) (ISBN-13)
1594771685 (pbk. : alk. paper) (ISBN)

I don't know about this Kristan woman, but a lot of female bodybuilders actually do take T or other forms of steroids in order to build muscle, which contributes to how manly they look.

Quote from: mikaelmackison on July 05, 2013, 09:09:22 AMGenerally, you need to get down to a 10% or lower to see the abdominal muscles, for example.

Using body fat percentage for abdominals is pointless. Everyone carries fat differently. I'm probably around 19% body fat and started seeing my abs after the first 3 trips to the gym. All of my fat is carried in my arms (triceps mostly) and bum. Just wanna point that out.

I know a lot of supplements are advertised to increase T, but these effects have only been studied in men, and barely even studied at that. Most of the herbs and what-not that are supposed to raise T in men MAY raise it in women, but will also raise E levels as well. So research a LOT before taking something that claims to raise T naturally. I've looked into a LOT of supplements and have yet to find one that raises JUST E in women.

Yes, there are aromatase inhibitors that are supposed to block the conversion of T into E, but there also haven't been many studies on those as well, so they may or may not work how you want them to.

I've been looking into some supplement stacks, and some of them include things to raise T, things to block E production, and things to block DHT production (prevents genetic males from balding from their products). So that might be something to look into buying. Plenty of female bodybuilders use products like these and claim to get great results, so it has to be raising their T in one way or another.

I've never seen a female bodybuilder who looked THAT masculine. Damn. I never woulda guessed she was female!

Anything aimed to raise T ONLY works for cis males and maybe those taking T.  However, even for them the change is marginal at best, so it's not worth wasting any money on that junk, it's doing nothing on the grand scheme of things.  I say save your money!!

In terms of increasing T, you can only really do it with T.  You're not going to get anything you'd get with T without being on T.  Put it this way, if there was a way to do this without T, there'd be a lot of broke guys doing it.  I hate to say it, but that's unfortunately how it is.

When it comes to body builders, many of them are actually taking steroids, and if they're not, a crap ton of expensive supplements and excessive amounts of training, you're talking years and $1000s.  And looking that masculine isn't a given.  While most female body builders do have flatter chests, they tend to still have some feminine features in their face (at least the non-roid junkies).  You also have to bare in mind that Asians can often have more androgynous features.  Anyone who's seen Asian pop bands will have seen how feminine a lot of the guys look and women go OTT to display femininity.  .

tnx everybody and ansley thnx a lot bro i will try to get the book..

I belive its depends on how lucky you are.

There are people who can pass preT with almost no efford, and there some who go on T for ages and still find it difficult.
theres also people who easly build up mucles and some where its harder.
I belive working out and all this do help. However we also have to consider many people who work out work REALLY hard to get those results + many women who is in super ligas and so often have a high level of testostorone in there body. so its not gonna be easy but if your willing to work out hard I will say go for it.

Quote from: Jack_M on July 05, 2013, 04:59:34 PM
Anything aimed to raise T ONLY works for cis males and maybe those taking T.  However, even for them the change is marginal at best, so it's not worth wasting any money on that junk, it's doing nothing on the grand scheme of things.  I say save your money!!

In terms of increasing T, you can only really do it with T.  You're not going to get anything you'd get with T without being on T.  Put it this way, if there was a way to do this without T, there'd be a lot of broke guys doing it.  I hate to say it, but that's unfortunately how it is.

Not true. Hell, even flopping on the couch for two minutes will raise testosterone in cis females.

Quote from: Soren on July 15, 2013, 12:51:30 AM
Not true. Hell, even flopping on the couch for two minutes will raise testosterone in cis females.

Source?

Quote from: Nygeel on July 15, 2013, 01:00:55 AM
Source?

To flopping on the couch? It was a Harvard study on body language and endocrine response.
hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=491042
First result on google for "harvard body language study"

Quote from: Soren on July 15, 2013, 01:04:39 AM
To flopping on the couch? It was a Harvard study on body language and endocrine response.
hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=491042
First result on google for "harvard body language study"

Can't find it and the link doesn't work for me.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 15, 2013, 01:08:16 AM
Can't find it and the link doesn't work for me.

I didn't link it, I'm not the family ranking yet. Did you google or just type it in the bar? The title of it is "Amy J.C. Cuddy - Faculty - Harvard Business School" <- it's just to her profile, but the study is mentioned and there are other links there.

The study basically says that if you act or pose as a powerful person for 2 minutes that your cortisol drops and T rises. The posing is to make yourself take up space and appear to be larger than you are, kind of like males in the wild do to scare of competition.

Okay let me put it more clearly. You can raise T levels to an extent, yes, I mean that's obvious, but unless you have actual T injections or a medical condition that results in increased T levels, you won't be able to raise T levels beyond normal ranges for females, and even if you do, it'll only be marginally so. You can be high end, yes, but there's actually quite a difference between high range for females and low range for males.

I just don't want people running out and buying expensive supplements thinking it's going to do anything for them in terms of making their appearance more masculine because it's not going to work and it'll be a waste of money. It doesn't do much for cis men so it's not going to magically make someone jump from female to male levels; it's far too big a jump. And it's also a wasted expense for anyone actually on T too because their levels are monitored and maintained, if you genuinely need more T you'll get it.  Forums and reputable store assistants would also never recommend or dare advise supplements aimed at raising T to individuals going through puberty because their levels are high enough. These supplements are aimed at older cis males (best for those close to 40 and beyond) who still want to workout hard but maybe aren't getting quite the same results because their T levels are naturally lower now.

End of the day, unless you are an older cis male, these supplements are useless.

Quote from: Jack_M on July 15, 2013, 05:06:43 PM
Okay let me put it more clearly. You can raise T levels to an extent, yes, I mean that's obvious, but unless you have actual T injections or a medical condition that results in increased T levels, you won't be able to raise T levels beyond normal ranges for females, and even if you do, it'll only be marginally so. You can be high end, yes, but there's actually quite a difference between high range for females and low range for males.

I just don't want people running out and buying expensive supplements thinking it's going to do anything for them in terms of making their appearance more masculine because it's not going to work and it'll be a waste of money. It doesn't do much for cis men so it's not going to magically make someone jump from female to male levels; it's far too big a jump. And it's also a wasted expense for anyone actually on T too because their levels are monitored and maintained, if you genuinely need more T you'll get it.  Forums and reputable store assistants would also never recommend or dare advise supplements aimed at raising T to individuals going through puberty because their levels are high enough. These supplements are aimed at older cis males (best for those close to 40 and beyond) who still want to workout hard but maybe aren't getting quite the same results because their T levels are naturally lower now.

End of the day, unless you are an older cis male, these supplements are useless.

Again, not true; but feel free to believe what you will.

Okay, you show me the study then. Don't say it's wrong and then quote a study that doesn't prove anything at all. Until I see a study where one can achieve consistent male testosterone ranges, I will not condone leading people to believe that there is an alternative way using expensive supplements that don't work.

Don't you think if there was a legit way without T, that guys without access to T would already be doing it? I don't agree with promoting false hope.

Are you really trying to say that flopping around on a couch gets you the same T levels as a man? I mean come on! If that were the case I think we'd see a lot more girls with facial hair don't you think?

Quote from: Soren on July 15, 2013, 01:11:45 AM
I didn't link it, I'm not the family ranking yet. Did you google or just type it in the bar? The title of it is "Amy J.C. Cuddy - Faculty - Harvard Business School" <- it's just to her profile, but the study is mentioned and there are other links there.

Yay for understanding the rules! Go ahead and provide your links, hon, you're fine. Hugs, Devlyn