Quote from: Jack_M on July 15, 2013, 08:27:24 PM
Okay, you show me the study then. Don't say it's wrong and then quote a study that doesn't prove anything at all. Until I see a study where one can achieve consistent male testosterone ranges, I will not condone leading people to believe that there is an alternative way using expensive supplements that don't work.

Don't you think if there was a legit way without T, that guys without access to T would already be doing it? I don't agree with promoting false hope.

Are you really trying to say that flopping around on a couch gets you the same T levels as a man? I mean come on! If that were the case I think we'd see a lot more girls with facial hair don't you think?

I didn't say flopping on the couch would get you cis male levels, I said it would increases T. http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=491042 <- the study for that.
As for the supplements, I've been taking vitamins and two of the suggested herbals for a year. My feet have gone up three sizes, there was lower growth, my jawline is sharper, my scent has changed, I have male fat patterns, more body hair, more acne, and a lower voice, which is now cracking instead of the previous gradual change. And I'm developing an Adam's apple as well.
As for the "why doesn't everyone know this?" Well, why doesn't everyone know that female tear ducts are in an oblong shape, which causes tears to spill over on to the cheeks more than a males? Why doesn't everyone know that estrogens in pesticides have caused male life expectancy to become lower than a female's by a full decade in the past 100 years?
I'm a librarian. We know things. We know how to research things. It's a dying art; of course not everyone would know.

Then what are your actual T levels?

Quote from: Jack_M on July 15, 2013, 09:41:04 PM
Then what are your actual T levels?

Don't know. I've never had them tested. Only my kidney and liver functions. (Which have improved on this regime, by the way; since testosterone builds on the muscles in the internal organs as well, this would be a strong indication as well as all of the physical results I've had).

Look man, I'm not trying to butt heads here. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine. My intention was to inform people of as many options as possible, and some options work better than others for some people.
You can stick with your synthetic T, which is just regular T with a junk molecule attached so drug companies can make money off of it, and I will stick to my supplements, which were created so drug companies could make money off of them.

Okay, what I know is from med school training and the appropriate medical textbooks.

I'm just going to state my own example:

1) I always had a low voice.  I know many say they have a low voice, but mine was low enough to pass pre-T.  My voice is lower than some I know that have been on T for years, it just lacked (up til now) the typical male resonance. Many thought I was already on hormones when I was still trying to get T.
2) I've always had a degree of facial hair and been shaving since I was 15, especially sides of where a mustache would be, and chin.
3) I have fairly big feet.  They're 3 sizes bigger than my sister's and 2 sizes bigger than my mum's.
4) I'm fairly tall in comparison to female members of my family; over 4 inches taller than my sister for example.
5) I have a fairly muscular build and managed to build footballer thighs.
6) I have large shoulders and a fairly big build.  By contrast, my mother and sister have slight builds.
7) I have always had a slight Adam's apple but more through feeling it because of my crappy anatomy (I lack a proper chin and even if I did get a better Adam's apple, it never shows up well in people with this problem).

All this and you know what my natural levels pre-T were? 2.5nmol/l.   Normal range for males =  ~ 9 - 35 nmol/l.  However, for young individuals the optimum is ~17+, but it should be noted that during puberty, levels are often higher.

So as you can see, I wasn't even close and yet I had some of the desired features of being on T, just nowhere near enough, even at what's considered more high range for females.

The thing is that T boosting supplements, even for cic males do not jump levels 100%, even the most enthusiastic of claims is closer to 50% above that individual's normal level, so how can we get to natural male levels? 

The following are the specific supplements I currently know about:

• DAA (D-Apartic Acid).
  

- This is an amino acid present in neuroendocrine tissue,  This plays a role in synthesis of LH (luteinizing hormone) which signals for the release of T from the testes.  DAA leads to greater release of T from the testes as well as increases levels too.

In cis males this can cause an increase of around 40% of their normal, much higher T levels.  This alone would not bring female levels to a male range, not to mention the fact that we lack testes where the action is mainly taking place.

• ZMA

- 3 ingredients, Zinc, Magnesium and vit B6.  Used mostly by athletes as depletion of these minerals is normal in harder activity.

Zinc is involved in actions of several hormones including hGH, T and E.  In athletes with zinc deficiency, T levels can go down.  Zinc helps bring levels back up.  Increases can be up to double.

Magnesium is involved in a ton of processes and with its involvement in glycolysis, krebs cycle, amino acid activation, protein synthesis, etc, deficiency can lead to lower T levels.

Vit B6 can boost the T to cortisol ratio.

Combination of the 3 can result in increase of around 30% in free T levels, but found to be more so for individuals with deficiencies in these minerals being the reason they lack T.

• Tribulus Terestris

- A plant extract that contains steroidal sponins that may increase T.  Portodiosin (sp) is one of these saponins and may increase T by stimulating the pituitary gland to increase production of LH (not known for definite to occur) and this can increase free-T levels, but like DAA, requires primarily the testes for this to take place.

• Eurycoma longifolia

- Much of the T in our bodies is bound by Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) and is therefore ineffective in things like muscle growth.  Only free T causes the attributed T effects, both anabolic (muscle mass) and adrogenic (masculinisation and sexualisation).

This is believed to bind with SHBG and stop if from being able to bind with T and therefore increase free-T levels. Again though, this is assuming much higher levels of overall T, not normal for females.

• DHEA

- This hormone is naturally found secreted by adrenal gland.  It works on androgen receptors of androstenediol and androstenedione, both of which convert to produce T and E.  It's thought that using this as a supplement will lead to it being converted to T and therefore increase T levels.  This is, however, useless to anyone under the age of around 30 (levels are at their peak from early 20s to 30s) and is actually banned by several sport authorities too, even though results are contested regarding whether it actually works.

• Essential Fatty Acids

- Necessary for metabolic processes including production of T but only in restoring levels in the event of a deficiency in natural fatty acids.

• Epimedium (Horny Goat Weed)

- Contains icariin which has increased T levels in rats but no studies thus far have replicated said effects in humans.

• DIM (Diindolymethane)

- This really just helps reduce E, more important for males taking T boosters to ensure that any converted T > E is eliminated ASAP.  Chrysin is also used for the same reason - it inhibits the aromatase enzyme that helps cause the T>E conversion.

It's way too huge a jump to be expected or maintained.  If you're genuinely getting the results you're getting, it more suggests that you maybe have an unnaturally high level as a norm, and since you've never had your T levels checked, we can't know for sure if your levels were either naturally pretty high, or even high enough to be in normal male range now.

On face value, your results are unexpected and if you truly are getting those results then I'd suggest you talk to a doctor and get it all checked out and find out your levels.  There's medical conditions that can cause high levels of T in females, e.g. PCOS or adrenal tumours.  Hell even some degree of gigantism, which would account for any growth, like your feet.  So my advice would be to get yourself checked out to be on the safe side.

If I've missed out any supplements then you can let me know, but those are the ones I know about.  None of the results for the above would give folk in a normal female range a normal male range, especially when the ones with the best results really do require a higher natural T level or actual testes to bring about increases.  And considering the percentage increase, it's still not enough anyway.

Quote from: Jack_M on July 16, 2013, 02:13:24 AM
so how can we get to natural male levels? 

I said it raises them to about the same as T. I did not make any mention that it would grow someone a dick.

Congratulations on you pre T manliness, most of us aren't so lucky. Just last year my shoe size was still 4, and had been for 5 years. My voice had always been high female, now it's low female, and on occasion it drops to a male resonance and sounds like my brother. I'm native american descent and naturally blond to boot, even my armpits aren't very hairy and the body hair I do have is invisible from five feet away. This doesn't change the fact that I have a "happy trail" now, or that I'm getting sideburns. I'm still the shortest one in my family, with the smallest bone structure as well (unless you count my cousins). I hadn't had an adam's apple before, but I did have two chins. Perhaps you're beginning to see why I'm saying it can work?

Maybe on a different end? I live at home with a bigot for a dad. I needed slow changes. Up until last year we had to drive to Seattle to see the doctor, because our insurance covered people still in med school. This year is the fist time I've met with a competent doctor. I'm sure he would agree to check my T levels instead of trying to assure me that asexuality doesn't exist and that I need an HPV vaccine.

The next step goes into the "I'm a librarian, so I know these things" category and that is:
DHEA is secreted by the adrenal gland. You don't need a supplement for it.
EVERYONE should have fatty acids in their diet. They coat neurons to make them work better and faster.
Trib does not need the testes to work.

Quote from: Jack_M on July 16, 2013, 02:13:24 AM
It's way too huge a jump to be expected or maintained.  If you're genuinely getting the results you're getting, it more suggests that you maybe have an unnaturally high level as a norm, and since you've never had your T levels checked, we can't know for sure if your levels were either naturally pretty high, or even high enough to be in normal male range now.

On face value, your results are unexpected and if you truly are getting those results then I'd suggest you talk to a doctor and get it all checked out and find out your levels.  There's medical conditions that can cause high levels of T in females, e.g. PCOS or adrenal tumours.  Hell even some degree of gigantism, which would account for any growth, like your feet.  So my advice would be to get yourself checked out to be on the safe side.

Based on physical attributes before I started, it's likely that my T levels were significantly lower than an average female. I can guarantee that I have neither PCOS nor adrenal tumors, and I highly doubt that someone who isn't even 5'2" can have a form of giantism.

If you would like, my next meeting with my doctor will be late october/ early november. Since I'm going to be bringing an info packet of what I've been doing and the results in order to get my letter for the SSA, he will probably require a T level test. would you like me to revive this thread and tell you the results when I get them?

Quote from: Soren on July 16, 2013, 12:11:22 PM
I said it raises them to about the same as T. I did not make any mention that it would grow someone a dick.

But that's the thing, logically speaking it cannot raise T levels the same as actual T.  Normal for females is less than 2.6nmol/l (75ng/dl), the lowest rage for males is 9nmol/l (260ng/dl).  You're talking over 3 times the levels of high range females and the most enthusiastic of increases through supplements is just 50% of natural levels.  When taking into account having less T to begin with and not having testes at all (where a lot of the supplement effects primarily take place) I just don't see how normal male ranges can possibly be attained.  Remember 9nmol/l is low, this is what very old guys would reasonably have, you'd be looking to have way more than that, For young people anything below around 17nmol/l (500ng/dl) is considered low.  When a cis male has levels below this, combined with symptoms of low Testosterone, they often start injecting T themselves!

Can you see now why I'm so skeptical?

Quote from: Soren on July 16, 2013, 12:11:22 PM

The next step goes into the "I'm a librarian, so I know these things" category and that is:
DHEA is secreted by the adrenal gland. You don't need a supplement for it.
EVERYONE should have fatty acids in their diet. They coat neurons to make them work better and faster.
Trib does not need the testes to work.

Yeah you might want to re-read what I wrote because none of that was new. 

Quote from: Jack_M on July 16, 2013, 02:13:24 AM

• DHEA

- This hormone is naturally found secreted by adrenal gland.  It works on androgen receptors of androstenediol and androstenedione, both of which convert to produce T and E.  It's thought that using this as a supplement will lead to it being converted to T and therefore increase T levels.  This is, however, useless to anyone under the age of around 30 (levels are at their peak from early 20s to 30s) and is actually banned by several sport authorities too, even though results are contested regarding whether it actually works.

• Essential Fatty Acids

- Necessary for metabolic processes including production of T but only in restoring levels in the event of a deficiency in natural fatty acids.

• Tribulus Terestris

- A plant extract that contains steroidal sponins that may increase T.  Portodiosin (sp) is one of these saponins and may increase T by stimulating the pituitary gland to increase production of LH (not known for definite to occur) and this can increase free-T levels, but like DAA, requires primarily the testes for this to take place.

I'm only writing in here because you cannot confirm your results.  I wish Jossef could get the T he needs.  But knowing and understand he's having a tough time without access to T, I don't like the idea of him potentially setting himself up for another failure in his quest for T results based on unconfirmed results obtained by just one person when the odds of success are stacked against him.  False hope can be damaging.

Based on my knowledge and research (because I would have loved to to anything to boost my T and did study this) it's not typical for significant changes to occur, and it's highly unlikely, without medical conditions causing increased T, for one to achieve consistent male range T on supplements alone. 

Quote from: Jack_M on July 16, 2013, 01:39:03 PM
But that's the thing, logically speaking it cannot raise T levels the same as actual T.  Normal for females is less than 2.6nmol/l (75ng/dl), the lowest rage for males is 9nmol/l (260ng/dl).  You're talking over 3 times the levels of high range females and the most enthusiastic of increases through supplements is just 50% of natural levels.  When taking into account having less T to begin with and not having testes at all (where a lot of the supplement effects primarily take place) I just don't see how normal male ranges can possibly be attained.  Remember 9nmol/l is low, this is what very old guys would reasonably have, you'd be looking to have way more than that, For young people anything below around 17nmol/l (500ng/dl) is considered low.  When a cis male has levels below this, combined with symptoms of low Testosterone, they often start injecting T themselves!

Can you see now why I'm so skeptical?

Yeah you might want to re-read what I wrote because none of that was new. 

I'm only writing in here because you cannot confirm your results.  I wish Jossef could get the T he needs.  But knowing and understand he's having a tough time without access to T, I don't like the idea of him potentially setting himself up for another failure in his quest for T results based on unconfirmed results obtained by just one person when the odds of success are stacked against him.  False hope can be damaging.

Based on my knowledge and research (because I would have loved to to anything to boost my T and did study this) it's not typical for significant changes to occur, and it's highly unlikely, without medical conditions causing increased T, for one to achieve consistent male range T on supplements alone.

My clarifications were that neither DHEA nor omega supplements were needed in a natural transition regime, and that trib does not need testes to function.
My research when starting this was not limited to just T. I went through many nutritional studies, biochemistry and endocrinology textbooks while studying.
I also did not anywhere state that that was all there was to it. I've also been exercising, have changed my diet, and cut out non-organic foods, salt, sugar, and all foods known to block androgens, as well as adding phytoandrogens to my diet.
I said that all of these things, along with supplements, have gotten me the same results as someone who is on T, albeit slightly slower.

If you're getting changes from it then you're the lucky one.  Most people who try it don't get that far, and are actually taking risks from overloading their bodies with supplements which aren't normally held to the same quality controls as synthetic T and other medicines are.  If you're happy with it then go for it, but it's not fair to give people false hope when it's costly and tens of anecdotes suggest it's a waste of time.

Quote from: AlexanderC on July 16, 2013, 06:29:39 PM
If you're getting changes from it then you're the lucky one.  Most people who try it don't get that far, and are actually taking risks from overloading their bodies with supplements which aren't normally held to the same quality controls as synthetic T and other medicines are.  If you're happy with it then go for it, but it's not fair to give people false hope when it's costly and tens of anecdotes suggest it's a waste of time.

Lucky enough to try a lotto ticket?

QuoteI've been looking into some supplement stacks, and some of them include things to raise T, things to block E production, and things to block DHT production (prevents genetic males from balding from their products). So that might be something to look into buying. Plenty of female bodybuilders use products like these and claim to get great results, so it has to be raising their T in one way or another.

I've never seen a female bodybuilder who looked THAT masculine. Damn. I never woulda guessed she was female!

Kristan Clever is a top-ranked competitive Crossfit athlete. There are some Crossfit ladies who train very hard, eat very clean and (probably) take a regimen of supplements to obtain cut and fit physiques. I'd recommend looking to see if there is a Crossfit program near where you live, Jossef. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in great shape and training hard to get there. Crossfit gyms are usually private and cost money to join. However, it might be worth your while to give it a shot if you can afford it. Here is a link to a site that will allow you to search for a gym. It is worldwide. http://map.crossfit.com/ << just copy it and paste it into your address bar if the link doesn't work for you.

Quote
There's medical conditions that can cause high levels of T in females, e.g. PCOS or adrenal tumours.

QuoteAs for the supplements, I've been taking vitamins and two of the suggested herbals for a year. My feet have gone up three sizes, there was lower growth, my jawline is sharper, my scent has changed, I have male fat patterns, more body hair, more acne, and a lower voice, which is now cracking instead of the previous gradual change. And I'm developing an Adam's apple as well.

I have such a condition. I have had it for my entire life, was officially diagnosed at 15 with a mild case of CAH, or Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. I did develop these changes naturally between the ages of 20 (when I began tapering off of the female hormone treatments I had been taking since 15) until present day (late 20s). But my case is the exception and not the rule. Most female-bodied persons do not have CAH or the other complications I have had. Most female-bodied persons can expect to NOT go through male puberty during their 20s.

If a non-medical transition worked for you, that is great. But I would not advise anyone without access to knowledgeable medical staff or a supportive family or LGBT community to do so.

That being said, there are those who do the whole "natural transition" thing and it seems to work for them. I'm just leery of the promises. If someone wants to take B6, ZMA, supplement stacks, etc, go for it. If you pair them with a healthy diet and workout, you'll see some positive results. DHEA is a bit riskier to me because I had experience with it when I was younger. It wasn't a positive experience, as I got quite ill while taking it. Trib, HGW, Ashwaganda and the other herbal male enhancement products are a shot in the dark at best, imho.

Trib most likely increased estrogen levels for me.

Quote from: Soren on July 16, 2013, 07:45:51 PM
Lucky enough to try a lotto ticket?

Got that covered! https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,144880.0.html

Quote from: Soren on July 15, 2013, 08:49:14 PM
I didn't say flopping on the couch would get you cis male levels, I said it would increases T. http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=491042 <- the study for that.
As for the supplements, I've been taking vitamins and two of the suggested herbals for a year. My feet have gone up three sizes, there was lower growth, my jawline is sharper, my scent has changed, I have male fat patterns, more body hair, more acne, and a lower voice, which is now cracking instead of the previous gradual change. And I'm developing an Adam's apple as well.
As for the "why doesn't everyone know this?" Well, why doesn't everyone know that female tear ducts are in an oblong shape, which causes tears to spill over on to the cheeks more than a males? Why doesn't everyone know that estrogens in pesticides have caused male life expectancy to become lower than a female's by a full decade in the past 100 years?
I'm a librarian. We know things. We know how to research things. It's a dying art; of course not everyone would know.

I wasnt going to say anything first few times i noticed your posts. But you are spouting so much mistruth that I really feel like i need to speak up. I have no idea where you are getting all your information or what channel of research you are using but I encourage to rethink it.

SUPPLEMENTS WILL NOT raise your testosterone any where near enough to pass uless you have some special conditions before hand. I am sorry for jossef ftm because he should not get his hopes up with this information you are giving him.

I would love to know where you read hat men and women have diferent shaped tear ducts. Sizes yes. Shape - never heard that in my lfe.

Quote from: chuck on July 17, 2013, 02:42:44 PM
I wasnt going to say anything first few times i noticed your posts. But you are spouting so much mistruth that I really feel like i need to speak up. I have no idea where you are getting all your information or what channel of research you are using but I encourage to rethink it.

SUPPLEMENTS WILL NOT raise your testosterone any where near enough to pass uless you have some special conditions before hand. I am sorry for jossef ftm because he should not get his hopes up with this information you are giving him.

I would love to know where you read hat men and women have diferent shaped tear ducts. Sizes yes. Shape - never heard that in my lfe.

I said I've gotten results near the same time frame as T. I've never once said I've been able to pass. Go ahead and look through all of me posts- no mention whatsoever.
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/37483/1330300109_ftp.pdf?sequence=1 <- not where I first read the tear duct thing, but it seems to contain the same information.

And I think it's quite amusing about your wish to stay silent until you got sick of the misinformation. It's the same way I felt about everyone saying it garners no results.

QuoteIt's the same way I felt about everyone saying it garners no results.

I didn't say that NT didn't garner results. I have seen cases where it does. Another online community I belong to has several persons who have done NT, with a variety of results. There are some people who do it while they wait to start hormones, others do it to help them get into shape and others do it because they can't get T or don't want to take it for whatever reason.

I just think that people need to be very cautious when pursuing NT. It's not without its risks, just like regular T is not without its risks.

Can and should a person expect the same results with NT as with regular T? Absolutely not. It's not the same thing AT ALL. If anything, as it seems to be in your case, NT is simply a way of starting to achieve some results before you officially start T, correct? I just don't advocate this particular path for the OP, who is in a country where he doesn't have access to medical care, knowledge and/or possibly the same supplements that most of us in the West (US, Canada, UK, Europe) would have access to.

Quote from: zombieinc on July 17, 2013, 10:08:07 PM
I didn't say that NT didn't garner results. I have seen cases where it does. Another online community I belong to has several persons who have done NT, with a variety of results. There are some people who do it while they wait to start hormones, others do it to help them get into shape and others do it because they can't get T or don't want to take it for whatever reason.

I just think that people need to be very cautious when pursuing NT. It's not without its risks, just like regular T is not without its risks.

Can and should a person expect the same results with NT as with regular T? Absolutely not. It's not the same thing AT ALL. If anything, as it seems to be in your case, NT is simply a way of starting to achieve some results before you officially start T, correct? I just don't advocate this particular path for the OP, who is in a country where he doesn't have access to medical care, knowledge and/or possibly the same supplements that most of us in the West (US, Canada, UK, Europe) would have access to.

The reason I started arguing for it was because everyone else said it didn't work at all.
And I have no intention of seeing a therapist, which I believe is how you get a prescription, no? I already have enough things keeping me from getting hired, I don't need another one.

You know, for a librarian who claims to do their research that's a bit of a massive fail right there.

How on EARTH would seeing a therapist make any difference to getting hired?  It's actually highly offensive to even imply that.  Like by dealing with one's issues they get branded as having something so wrong with them they're unhireable.  That's preposterous!  Your medical history has got nothing to do with an employer.  An employer has absolutely no right (or even the means) to see your medical history.

Non trans* people see therapists all the time!  You're just spouting even more misinformation now!

Quote from: Jack_M on July 17, 2013, 10:39:01 PM
You know, for a librarian who claims to do their research that's a bit of a massive fail right there.

How on EARTH would seeing a therapist make any difference to getting hired?  It's actually highly offensive to even imply that.  Like by dealing with one's issues they get branded as having something so wrong with them they're unhireable.  That's preposterous!  Your medical history has got nothing to do with an employer.  An employer has absolutely no right (or even the means) to see your medical history.

Non trans* people see therapists all the time!  You're just spouting even more misinformation now!

1. I research things that interest me.
2. They do background searches on your SSN, if you have a diagnosed mental disorder, it'll show up. Most small places with entry-level jobs (where I can actual apply to) hold the right to fire anyone for no reason with no warning.
3. The non-trans people that are seeing therapists usually have steady jobs already, and they usually just talk without being diagnosed.
4. There's also a large amount of them that are just in couples counseling.
5. If you haven't caught on yet, you're one of the people that irritated me enough to defend the use of supplements. And I love how your last post was basically just an insult to me without any mention of the original thread topic. Bravo. I love it when people use ad hominem.

BECAUSE you are spouting nonsense and truly did lead Jossef on to believe this was the answer to all his issues and it's not even close.  It's false hope and you kept trying to say that this method had the same effects as T and that levels would be the same as if taking T and it was all flat out misinformation.

A SSN search is merely to determine where you have lived, not mental health.  The background search itself doesn't include medical records, and are generally not disclosed to employers at all.  They have to jump through a ton of hoops to get that information and by and large require the consent of the employee, who can obviously refuse!  The only time they are of importance is more in situations of checking health of someone signing up for a military job to make sure they don't have a bad heart, or asthma for example. Even if an employer can get access to medical records it's not direct access, they can merely inquire about specifics, mostly with regards to capability to do the job.  GID would not affect whether someone can carry out a job.

There are tons of trans people working and even some getting hired. I think it's a bit drastic to say that getting on T and seeing a therapist will keep you from getting employed EVER. I dont think that's true.