You have to give yourself some time too. Heck I was fulltime for a couple years before I stopped getting the stares and hearing little comments about how I must be going from one to the other amongst people nearby. Nowadays if I get stared at, its usually for talking to inanimate objects or doing something silly as I often do to amuse myself.

Quote from: jrd on July 22, 2013, 05:41:16 PM
You have to give yourself some time too. Heck I was fulltime for a couple years before I stopped getting the stares and hearing little comments about how I must be going from one to the other amongst people nearby. Nowadays if I get stared at, its usually for talking to inanimate objects or doing something silly as I often do to amuse myself.

Ha!  . I'm prone to playing air-guitar/air-turntables/air-etc... myself.

And I need to focus on the fact I'm offered cisgender privilege far more often than not. Just used a women's changing room, no problem.  New top and dress.  Ahhhhhh.  Feel better.  On sale!  Feel much better!

Oh y'all, save for one, helped me feel better too.  And my therapist.

Shopping is my therapy too, ...although my Therapist for some reason refers to is as OCD  (Optimizing Clothing Desire).   I'm like  "..no duh!!  ..Ya Think!?! ..I just call it shopping!"   

Glad your feeling better     

Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 06:12:53 PM
Oh y'all, save for one, helped me feel better too.  And my therapist.

Repeated again. What was written previous wasn't addressed to you or anyone else. But hey, no problem. Your thread.

I'll keep clear in future.

Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 06:54:57 PM
Repeated again. What was written previous wasn't addressed to you or anyone else. But hey, no problem. Your thread.

I'll keep clear in future.

I went back again.  Now not on my phone so I have more screen space.  I see your intent better now (and your last post).  Given my vunerable/mopey state I think I was prone to take "you's" personally.

My second call out was out of line.  I apologize.

Tried sending you a personal apology Stella, but it says you can't get PMs.

And now I'm feeling incredibly foolish.  Heck, my first was out of line.

Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 05:34:46 PM
The intentional misgenderings do tell me I don't pass.  Even though I don't I'd still have transitioned.

OK, this one thing you said is a really big thing and really frames the way you see your situation. INTENTIONAL misgenderings do NOT mean that you don't pass. It just means you work with some real ->-bleeped-<-s. 

Hang in there, Jess

Hopefully the misunderstanding has been cleared up.

Quote from: JessicaH on July 22, 2013, 08:20:32 PM
OK, this one thing you said is a really big thing and really frames the way you see your situation. INTENTIONAL misgenderings do NOT mean that you don't pass. It just means you work with some real ->-bleeped-<-s. 

Hang in there, Jess

Whoops, I should clarify.  The common thread has been sub sandwich shops for the mis-genderings.  Always the person making my sub.  In neither case had I visited the shop with any frequency.

Geez, twice I get misgendered and I get all bent out of shape.  I still think all the tumult since March is gotten to me.  I have these problems I can't solve and I just obsess about them.

Quote from: Jamie D on July 22, 2013, 08:22:21 PM
Hopefully the misunderstanding has been cleared up.

This problem included.

When I first wrote "What happened to me?" I think I meant things like, I'm on a support forum, why on Earth would my mind leap to think I'm being attacked?  Back when I first went full time I was so happy and optimistic.  Life felt good.  Now I'm buried in a sea of chronic problems and I'm letting these issues get to me in a way that's corrupting who I want to be.  Who I undertook all this to become!  I gotta put the breaks on it.  I gotta turn this around, put er' in reverse.  I've been too tempted of late to run away, to hide myself in my apartment for a time.  Maybe on that front it's good I went to the Mall.  Even if I do like Southdale more.

I gotta deal with this negativity and this snarky-ness that's found me again.  Therapist had some good advice, as did everyone on this thread.  I don't want to put myself in the doghouse with anyone else.

Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 07:18:11 PM
I went back again.  Now not on my phone so I have more screen space.  I see your intent better now (and your last post).  Given my vunerable/mopey state I think I was prone to take "you's" personally.

My second call out was out of line.  I apologize.

It's not a problem.. I've done the same thing so many times myself, we all make mistakes so please don't feel bad about it. The most important thing is that you're feeling better after whoever it was had you on the spot.

Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 09:32:15 PM
It's not a problem.. I've done the same thing so many times myself, we all make mistakes so please don't feel bad about it. The most important thing is that you're feeling better after whoever it was had you on the spot.

  Seeing your reply is going to help me sleep A LOT better.

Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 05:34:46 PMThe intentional misgenderings do tell me I don't pass.  Even though I don't I'd still have transitioned.

I'm a little late here, but I just wanted to relate a recent experience of mine; maybe it will be of some help. But first, I must say that, based on your avatar, you not only pass but are beautiful! If people stare, then perhaps it's because you have a very striking, distinctive (but not unpleasant) appearance. As for the "intentional misgenderings," people have their own issues, and perhaps they were just in a bad mood and wanted to take it out on you.

A couple of weeks ago, I was getting out of my car in a crowded retail parking lot when two guys in a car stopped near me. One of them called out to me, "Excuse me, we couldn't help but notice your bumper..."

You see, the front bumper on my car is messed-up, and I don't have the money to fix it. Over the past couple of years, I have been approached several times by random strangers offering to repair the damage on-the-spot for a far lower price than a body shop. I don't know about you, but it sounds really sketchy to me. That day, I was in a hurry and annoyed that these guys were stopping me to propose an impromptu repair job. So before they could even finish asking for my business, I turned my back to them and shouted, with audible irritation, "OH NO THANK YOU I DON'T NEED IT!"

A few things need to be said at this point. First of all, I live in a city where the people are generally open-minded and respectful/friendly toward LBGT people (and others who are out-of-the-ordinary). Second, when I present as female, I hardly make an effort to use a feminine voice. (It's not something that I prefer, but I have personal reasons for not changing my voice.) Third, I was wearing a cute dress and full, girly make-up at the time. In fact, it was this exact outfit (minus hat, sunglasses, and lollipop): http://distilleryimage9.ak.instagram.com/29f9a58ce69911e2a9ff22000aaa0374_7.jpg

I have a post in the "You look fabulous" thread that shows my face in "girl mode": https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,138923.msg1182620.html#msg1182620

Even though I favor somewhat bold fashions as a girl, I don't get stares and don't feel like I have trouble passing. So I was startled and crestfallen when the guy said, while my back was turned, "OK, have a nice day, SIR!" It just felt like an insult. But I've managed to console myself by keeping in mind that some people are just jerks. There's nothing wrong with me or how I look or my presentation. The problem is theirs, not mine. I think that this was what Stella was trying to say.

I know that you're under a lot of stress, but please hang in there because, by all appearances, you're still doing just fine!

Quote from: Silvermist on July 22, 2013, 10:08:06 PM
I'm a little late here, but I just wanted to relate a recent experience of mine; maybe it will be of some help. But first, I must say that, based on your avatar, you not only pass but are beautiful! If people stare, then perhaps it's because you have a very striking, distinctive (but not unpleasant) appearance. As for the "intentional misgenderings," people have their own issues, and perhaps they were just in a bad mood and wanted to take it out on you.

Distinctive!  I like it!  Really I do.  Even though I'm clockable, I do feel I still look good.  Feel pretty and all that, you know?  I still put my time in every morning to put myself together.  Kinda scaled back on weekends, but effort all the same.

Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 01:58:34 AM
The way I see it this comes down to empathy and responsibility more than anything else. This is a hard fact or simple truth that I feel anyone who is transitioning or out as trans needs to accept and embrace.

It doesn't matter who you are, what size you are, where you are, or how you present yourself, you're going to come across other people in society who just don't have enough empathy or a sense of social responsibility.

This is so not your problem.

This is not about passing.

I'm sorry but neither cisgendered men nor women are overly concerned by how well they pass to others, they just are. I don't see why it has to be any different just because someone is trans. 

Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 01:58:34 AM
You see I'm out and transitioning for me, for my own personal reasons, so that I can function adequately out there in the real world and in society as the person I truly am. I didn't sign any agreement with anyone to be eye candy for other people.

I think there is a generational gap at play here. I don't speak for everyone but for a lot of the 30s and under it is about passing and it isn't as political as you are making it out to be. It really is quite simple: most of us want to pass and to just blend in and concentrate on other things like love and work and relationships, not being trans. People with long-term medical conditions don't get political about their issues and the way I see it neither should we. For me, this is a medical condition. And all I want is to be normal and to blend in and be accepted. I'm actually quite surprised at how political being trans is sometimes. I get that we need more rights and acceptance but you are kind of making it look like more of a lifestyle choice by emphasizing how we interact in the world and making it so philosophical.

Also, plenty if not most, cis women and men worry about looking too manish or too girlish. I can remember very specific instances of girls getting upset because someone said they look like or are build like a man. It certainly is a worry. And if a girl is overly manly, she def worries about it. It has nothing to do with being cis. I mean look at how hard some guys work out. Especially smaller guys. it is because they don't want to appear femme.

I just think there is nothing wrong with just wanting to blend in and not be out as trans. Lobbying for rights is one thing but being an activist? I don't get it. I think it makes out condition more than it has to be. I'm not saying this applies to you but I know some people get upset with trans women like myself who may have some passing privilege because I don't want to be known as trans and refuse to carry the banner. it's like I am supposed to give up my life to make things easier for the next generation or something. But what about my life? Can't I live it the way I want without having to be an activist? I want to be known as a great writer and compassionate woman. Not a trans woman. Just a woman.

I think it's great that you want to be an activist and get more rights but at the same time part of me feels like I wish some trans women would stop making so much noise.

Put it this way. There was an article in the Philadelphia Gay News about young trans sex workers. It was a great article and something that needed to be said. And I was so happy some body finally wrote about the horrors that some trans women have to do to survive. I know some of these women. They need to have a voice. But yet the whole comment section was drowned out by a bunch of trans activists because the writer said something about the Michgan Womyn's Festival and it wasn't even exclusionary. She just said be a woman there and don't make it all about being trans.

And so this great article which was really empathetic was hijacked and destroyed by trans activists.

My point is it just seems like Paige wanted to vent and that she just wants to pass and be part of the world and be known for her work not her medical condition. (Correct me if I read you wrong Paige.) I guess I just don't understand the political part of being trans.

Sorry for the tangent Paige. And please don't be offended Stella mainly what I am saying is that sometimes it is really simple and is just about passing and nothing more.

Quote from: Silvermist on July 22, 2013, 10:08:06 PM
I'm a little late here, but I just wanted to relate a recent experience of mine; maybe it will be of some help. But first, I must say that, based on your avatar, you not only pass but are beautiful! If people stare, then perhaps it's because you have a very striking, distinctive (but not unpleasant) appearance.

Quote from: Silvermist on July 22, 2013, 10:08:06 PM
I know that you're under a lot of stress, but please hang in there because, by all appearances, you're still doing just fine!

That's exactly what I was trying to say. You just seem to find much better words for it!

Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 23, 2013, 02:03:22 AM
Also, plenty if not most, cis women and men worry about looking too manish or too girlish. I can remember very specific instances of girls getting upset because someone said they look like or are build like a man. It certainly is a worry. And if a girl is overly manly, she def worries about it. It has nothing to do with being cis. I mean look at how hard some guys work out. Especially smaller guys. it is because they don't want to appear femme.

I'm unsure if I'm a good example but that's exactly as I felt my whole life. I was worrying all the time. I even refused unisex deodorant or shower gel. It always had to be the distinctively manly ones. But maybe that was just overcompensationing my feelings. Whatever.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 23, 2013, 02:03:22 AM

I think there is a generational gap at play here. I don't speak for everyone but for a lot of the 30s and under it is about passing and it isn't as political as you are making it out to be. It really is quite simple: most of us want to pass and to just blend in and concentrate on other things like love and work and relationships, not being trans. People with long-term medical conditions don't get political about their issues and the way I see it neither should we. For me, this is a medical condition. And all I want is to be normal and to blend in and be accepted. I'm actually quite surprised at how political being trans is sometimes. I get that we need more rights and acceptance but you are kind of making it look like more of a lifestyle choice by emphasizing how we interact in the world and making it so philosophical.

Also, plenty if not most, cis women and men worry about looking too manish or too girlish. I can remember very specific instances of girls getting upset because someone said they look like or are build like a man. It certainly is a worry. And if a girl is overly manly, she def worries about it. It has nothing to do with being cis. I mean look at how hard some guys work out. Especially smaller guys. it is because they don't want to appear femme.

I just think there is nothing wrong with just wanting to blend in and not be out as trans. Lobbying for rights is one thing but being an activist? I don't get it. I think it makes out condition more than it has to be. I'm not saying this applies to you but I know some people get upset with trans women like myself who may have some passing privilege because I don't want to be known as trans and refuse to carry the banner. it's like I am supposed to give up my life to make things easier for the next generation or something. But what about my life? Can't I live it the way I want without having to be an activist? I want to be known as a great writer and compassionate woman. Not a trans woman. Just a woman.

I think it's great that you want to be an activist and get more rights but at the same time part of me feels like I wish some trans women would stop making so much noise.

Put it this way. There was an article in the Philadelphia Gay News about young trans sex workers. It was a great article and something that needed to be said. And I was so happy some body finally wrote about the horrors that some trans women have to do to survive. I know some of these women. They need to have a voice. But yet the whole comment section was drowned out by a bunch of trans activists because the writer said something about the Michgan Womyn's Festival and it wasn't even exclusionary. She just said be a woman there and don't make it all about being trans.

And so this great article which was really empathetic was hijacked and destroyed by trans activists.

My point is it just seems like Paige wanted to vent and that she just wants to pass and be part of the world and be known for her work not her medical condition. (Correct me if I read you wrong Paige.) I guess I just don't understand the political part of being trans.

Sorry for the tangent Paige. And please don't be offended Stella mainly what I am saying is that sometimes it is really simple and is just about passing and nothing more.

I agree and disagree.  I don't think any of us should feel we have to be open or should be denied the option of stealth.  Passing is important to some of us and that doesn't make us weak or lesser than anyone else in the trans community.  I'm with you there.

On the other hand, I do think some of us aren't political or active enough.  How many transwomen really get involved in trying to pass anti-discrimination laws?  Some do, but I think there are many who just stand aside.  I don't think it's right for us to ignore the plight of others.  Even if you pass and don't need to worry about such laws, your trans-sisters may very well have to.  I think it is only right to stand up and fight.  That doesn't mean you have to expose yourself and come out of the closet.  It just means being vocal about things that are important.  So it's okay to be political.  It's just not every aspect of life and daily existence should be a political struggle.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 23, 2013, 02:03:22 AM
My point is it just seems like Paige wanted to vent and that she just wants to pass and be part of the world and be known for her work not her medical condition. (Correct me if I read you wrong Paige.) I guess I just don't understand the political part of being trans.

I do want to pass, more than I thought I would when I started out.

I try to do activist things too.  After that last being intentionally misgendered I gave a speech at my speech club about compassion, using the misgendering as my opening hook.  Went over well. 

What I long for is like a girls night out.  Indeed, just to be seen as one of the girls.  I'm told today one of my bosses got up during I meeting I wasn't at and said, "Paige he's working on I mean she's working on..."  I'm tired of being forced into that damn male box.  The boss who spoke of me today never even knew me as a guy. *mope*

Quote from: Misato on July 23, 2013, 07:16:23 PM
I do want to pass, more than I thought I would when I started out.

I try to do activist things too.  After that last being intentionally misgendered I gave a speech at my speech club about compassion, using the misgendering as my opening hook.  Went over well. 

What I long for is like a girls night out.  Indeed, just to be seen as one of the girls.  I'm told today one of my bosses got up during I meeting I wasn't at and said, "Paige he's working on I mean she's working on..."  I'm tired of being forced into that damn male box.  The boss who spoke of me today never even knew me as a guy. *mope*

I know this may sound bad but if you want to pass as much as possible you might want to blend in ( unless you live in a more liberal area/ state like California ) . The more LBGTQ activist stuff your involved in the more you stand out as something different. Just from what I have always herd from many others that's the case. It's one of the main reasons I'm stealth and try not to draw much attention to my past