I'm glad you are seeing somebody and your parents are taking it seriously.

I can't describe prices as everyone's insurance and copay differs.  Also, there are different policies for our non American forum members.  Procedures differ country to country.

Quote from: lavini557 on August 02, 2013, 08:51:17 PM
P.S. And I almost forgot but...how much does it cost to visit with or without insurance? My mom said that she might not go if insurance doesn't work, so I'm just wondering about prices.

If you live in the United States, most therapists would charge $75-$150 per hour-long session without insurance, the average being around $120.  With insurance, the copay would range from $25 to 50% of the uninsured rate.

Quote from: lavini557 on August 02, 2013, 08:51:17 PMAlso, is it complete BS that my parents think that one of reasons I'm like this is because I'm getting into an age where I start to get interested in girls?

Yes. Gender identity is entirely separate from sexual orientation. Please make sure that your parents are clear on that.

I think the answer to this is simple ... your dad wants a son, not a daughter. I'm sure some cultural things come into play with his "colorful" interpretation of trans individuals as well.

That said, as far as I can tell, transition IS a hard road and there's a lot of hurdles along the way. It's not like you can just flip a switch and magically become the woman you want with the perfect life you imagine. Things might not work out. You may lose friends, your family may shun you, you may lose work, your health might change. There's so many things that can happen but NO ONE can predict what will actually happen.

*sigh* Looks like I didn't ask my mom about how many times we were going to visit the doctor...because it's only going to be once...and she's still insisting that the doctor should change my mind, not my body. Apparently, if the doctor says I have to transition, that doctor is BS and is not a good doctor  It looks like I'll have to wait until college/university, but I don't know if I can last that long...this depression is killing me

Quote from: lavini557 on August 02, 2013, 08:51:17 PM
P.S. And I almost forgot but...how much does it cost to visit with or without insurance? My mom said that she might not go if insurance doesn't work, so I'm just wondering about prices.
Also, is it complete BS that my parents think that one of reasons I'm like this is because I'm getting into an age where I start to get interested in girls? I mean, I can sort of see how that works...but it still sounds like complete BS.

Therapists in the United States can run anywhere from $75/session to over $200/session.  Many have a sliding scale.  Psychiatrists are often affiliated with insurance plans.

Make sure you insist on your privacy with the therapist. Your parents should not be part of the therapy after, perhaps, the first session.  This is not family therapy.

Please listen closely and carefully to me because I am giving you some potentially life-saving information.

If you go to a therapist, and she/he prescribes transition as the treatment for your gender dysphoria, and your parents don't take it seriously and refuse to allow you this treatment, then by both the letter and spirit of the law, your parents are guilty of child neglect (which is considered a form of abuse) under the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act and should be reported to the authorities. The same applies if they refuse to take you to more than one session with a therapist. Here is what the law says...

According the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services Administration for Children & Families: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/capta2010.pdf

QuoteIn this Act—

• 1. the term 'child' means a person who has not attained the lesser of—
  A. the age of 18; or
  B. except in the case of sexual abuse, the age specified by the child protection law of the State in which the child resides;
• 2. the term 'child abuse and neglect' means, at a minimum, any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker, which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation, or an act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm;

According the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services Child Welfare Information Gateway https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.cfm]ttps://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.cfm]https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.cfm

QuoteNeglect is the failure of a parent, guardian, or other caregiver to provide for a child's basic needs. Neglect may be:

• Physical (e.g., failure to provide necessary food or shelter, or lack of appropriate supervision)
• Medical (e.g., failure to provide necessary medical or mental health treatment)
• Educational (e.g., failure to educate a child or attend to special education needs)
• Emotional (e.g., inattention to a child's emotional needs, failure to provide psychological care, or permitting the child to use alcohol or other drugs)

According to the American Humane Association: http://www.americanhumane.org/children/stop-child-abuse/fact-sheets/child-neglect.html

QuoteMedical neglect is the failure to provide appropriate health care for a child (although financially able to do so), thus placing the child at risk of being seriously disabled or disfigured or dying. According to NCANDS, in 2005, 2 percent of children (17,637 children) in the United States were victims of medical neglect (USDHHS, 2007). Concern is warranted not only when a parent refuses medical care for a child in an emergency or for an acute illness, but also when a parent ignores medical recommendations for a child with a treatable chronic disease or disability, resulting in frequent hospitalizations or significant deterioration.

Even in non-emergency situations, medical neglect can result in poor overall health and compounded medical problems.

Parents may refuse medical care for their children for different reasons religious beliefs, fear or anxiety about a medical condition or treatment, or financial issues. Child protective services agencies generally will intervene when:

• Medical treatment is needed in an acute emergency (e.g., a child needs a blood transfusion to treat shock);
• A child with a life-threatening chronic disease is not receiving needed medical treatment (e.g., a child with diabetes is not receiving medication); or
• A child has a chronic disease that can cause disability or disfigurement if left untreated (e.g., a child with congenital cataracts needs surgery to prevent blindness).

Being transgender puts you at the highest risk of suicidality. Since you say that you're already so depressed that it's seriously impacting your life, then you are not far away from contemplating suicide.

According a study done by the Virginia Department of Health: http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/epidemiology/diseaseprevention/documents/pdf/THISFINALREPORTVol1.pdf

QuoteNearly two-thirds (65%) of participants reported ever having thoughts of killing themselves, including 79% of the FTMs and 58% of the MTFs. Among MTFs reporting suicidal ideation, 62% felt their gender issues were either most of or the main reason for their suicidal ideation, compared to 39% of 23 FTMs. Among the 223 participants reporting suicidal ideation, 89 (41%) made suicide attempts – or 25% of the entire sample. Among those who thought about killing themselves, the suicide attempt rates were similar for FTMs (43%) and MTFs (41%). One-third of those attempting suicide had made one attempt; another 30% had made two attempts; 16% made 3 attempts; 14% made 4 to 9 attempts; and 8% made 10 or more attempts. The median age for the first suicide attempt was 15 years for FTMs and 16 years for MTFs. The median age for the last suicide attempt was 20 years for FTMs and 22 years for MTFs.

According to a report on another recent study:
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/staggering_rate_of_attempted_suicides_by_transgenders_highlights_injustices

QuoteA "staggering" 41 percent of the more than 6,400 respondents said they had attempted suicide, compared to a rate of 1.6 percent for the general population, according to the survey (PDF) by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Transgender Equality.

Please understand that I am not joking or being melodramatic. My parents (who are also Asian) abused and neglected me throughout my entire childhood and adolescence and left me with deep psychological issues that I will have to manage for the rest of my life, on top of the gender dysphoria. That is why I am so sensitive to child mistreatment; I have no tolerance for it. Please don't let it happen to you.

Here is the official policy statement of the American Psychiatric Association regarding transgender patients: http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Advocacy%20and%20Newsroom/Position%20Statements/ps2012_TransgenderCare.pdf

QuoteSignificant and long-standing medical and psychiatric literature exists that demonstrates clear benefits of medical and surgical interventions to assist gender variant individuals seeking transition.
...
Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association:

• Recognizes that appropriately evaluated transgender and gender variant individuals can benefit greatly from medical and surgical gender transition treatments.
• Advocates for removal of barriers to care and supports both public and private health insurance coverage for gender transition treatment.
• Opposes categorical exclusions of coverage for such medically necessary treatment when prescribed by a physician.

As I previously mentioned, a massive update to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is developed by the American Psychiatric Association, was published this year. In their fact sheets about the DSM, here is what they say about gender dysphoria:
http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Gender%20Dysphoria%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

QuoteIt is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Practice/DSM/DSM-5/Changes-from-DSM-IV-TR--to-DSM-5.pdf

QuoteGender identity disorder, however, is neither a sexual dysfunction nor a paraphilia. Gender dysphoria is a unique condition in that it is a diagnosis made by mental health care providers, although a large proportion of the treatment is endocrinological and surgical (at least for some adolescents and most adults).

Here is the official policy statement of the American Psychological Association regarding transgender patients: http://www.apa.org/about/policy/transgender.aspx

QuoteTherefore be it further resolved that APA recognizes the efficacy, benefit and medical necessity of gender transition treatments for appropriately evaluated individuals and calls upon public and private insurers to cover these medically necessary treatments;

Therefore be it further resolved that APA supports access to appropriate treatment in institutional settings for people of all gender identities and expressions; including access to appropriate health care services including gender transition therapies;

Here is the official policy statement of the American Medical Association regarding transgender patients:
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/16/a08_hod_resolutions.pdf

QuoteWhereas, An established body of medical research demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID; and

Whereas, Health experts in GID, including WPATH, have rejected the myth that such treatments are "cosmetic" or "experimental" and have recognized that these treatments can provide safe and effective treatment for a serious health condition;7 and
...
Whereas, GID, if left untreated, can result in clinically significant psychological distress, dysfunction, debilitating depression and, for some people without access to appropriate medical care and treatment, suicidality and death; and
...
Whereas, Delaying treatment for GID can cause and/or aggravate additional serious and expensive health problems, such as stress-related physical illnesses, depression, and substance abuse problems, which further endanger patients' health and strain the health care system; therefore be it

Here are various publications by the American Academy of Family Physicians regarding transgender patients: http://www.aafp.org/online/etc/medialib/aafp_org/documents/membership/special/2007resolutions.Par.0001.File.tmp/2007NCSCSummActions-new-seal.pdf

QuoteRESOLVED, That the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) make available online resources to educate family physicians about the evaluation, treatment, and management of transgender individuals throughout the transitioning process, including specifics on hormone therapy and health maintenance.

http://www.aafp.org/online/etc/medialib/aafp_org/documents/about/rap/curriculum/lgbthealth.Par.0001.File.tmp/lgbt-health-curriculum-guidelines.pdf

QuoteManaging the transitional healthcare of transgender patients of all ages through either hormone administration or appropriate referral, as well as referral to any necessary mental health services and/or gender affirmation surgeries and related follow-up care.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2006/0915/p924.html

QuoteTo be eligible for treatment, patients must work with mental health professionals skilled in the diagnosis and treatment of GID. After months or years of counseling, the patient begins real-life gender role experience combined with or followed by hormonal therapy and possibly surgery.
...
Although hormonal therapy and surgery carry risks of life-threatening complications, failure to treat patients with GID carries risks of depression and high rates of substance abuse and suicide, especially in young adults.

Here is the official policy statement of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists regarding transgender patients: http://www.acog.org/About_ACOG/ACOG_Departments/Health_Care_for_Underserved_Women/Committee_Opinion_Health_Care_for_Transgender_Individuals

QuoteAlthough the care for these patients is often managed by a specialty team, obstetrician–gynecologists should be prepared to assist or refer transgender individuals with routine treatment and screening as well as hormonal and surgical therapies.

Here is the official policy statement of the National Association of Social Workers regarding transgender patients: http://www.socialworkers.org/da/da2008/finalvoting/documents/Transgender%202nd%20round%20-%20Clean.pdf

QuoteThis body dysphoria (known as gender dysphoria) causes significant distress, negatively impacts daily functioning and well-being, and requires medical services in order to realign the body with the self. Although there are many transgender people with medically diagnosed intersex conditions (Xavier, Honnold & Bradford, 2007) most people with intersex conditions are not transgender. (Intersex Society of North America, n.d.; Koyama, n.d.).
...
To align the physical body with the experienced sense of self, usually as an integral part of social transition away from the sex assigned at birth, transsexuals and some other individuals require medical services (for example, hormone replacement, facial electrolysis, or surgical and other procedures, as appropriate to the individual).
...
The diagnosis is vague regarding the medical necessity for and demonstrated success of treatment, particularly medically assisted transsexual transition, which prevents insurance reimbursements for care, and leaves transgender youth and adults alike vulnerable to so-called reparative‖ treatment.
...
Unfortunately, most in our society have little or no understanding of the profound discomfort some may feel in trying to conform to rigid gender roles assigned to them by virtue of their physiology. Similarly, ignorance and insensitivity prevails regarding the debilitating distress that accompanies body dysphoria, and the damage done to those left without access to medical and social transition.
...
Social workers should be partnered with the transgender community to modify laws, medical protocols, research, and policies, in ways that preserve and protect the quality of life for transgender, transsexual, and gender nonconforming citizens.
...
NASW supports the rights of all individuals to receive health insurance and other health coverage without discrimination on the basis of gender identity, and specifically without exclusion of services related to transgender or transsexual transition (or sex change), in order to receive medical and mental health services through their primary care physician and the appropriate referrals to medical specialists, which may include hormone replacement therapy, surgical interventions, prosthetic devices, and other medical procedures. NASW encourages the development of an appropriate, non-stigmatizing medical diagnosis for transgender individuals whose self-experienced sex/gender does not match the sex assigned at birth and who require medical services to align the body with the experienced self.

And finally, from the American Public Health Association's the official policy statement regarding transgender patients: http://www.apha.org/advocacy/policy/policysearch/default.htm?id=204

QuoteNoting that medical procedures are conducted upon many children and adolescents with little understanding of their long-term outcome often resulting in pain and distress, and examples of this are that (a) Gender Identity Disorder within the DSM-IV is misused by some health care professionals to treat "pre-homosexual" and "pre-transsexual" children and adolescents so as to promote their development into nontranssexual, heterosexual adults,

I have provided you with official documents from the highest relevant authorities in the United States. I urge you to share them with your parents to make them understand how serious this is. I furthermore urge you to explicitly state that you will report them for child neglect if they refuse to allow you access to treatments that are prescribed in accordance to the official policies of the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Family Physicians, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the National Association of Social Workers. Remember, this is not a baseless threat because your parents are BREAKING THE LAW if they do that to you. I cannot make it more clear.

I'm sorry for going overboard on the bolding, LOL.

I don't want to disagree with the severity of neglecting this, but I don't think any parent would find themselves in trouble with social services for not allowing their child to transition.  Having said that, if you are in a depressed state and need mental treatment at the moment, you can fight for that.  Right now, tell your parents you need help with your depression and that you can't keep it in.  Then focus on that and have the doctor pay attention to your gender issues.  It's likely that you will be able to get someone in the medical field on your side that may be able to help you.  Take one step at a time.  I think that may be the best step for you at this time.

I'm a lawyer and a near middle aged trans woman struggling to find my off ramp from male life even with a supportive wife.  I knew when I was young, before the days of even the early Internet and I can say the fear of my parents was critical in my half a life delay.  I mention I'm a lawyer only to say that's one damn persuasive post.  One Lavini should use (maybe not the breaking the law threat just yet but for damn sure the experts).  I mention my age and position only to buttress the point that parents can inflict significant harm in this process as well.

So, if the doctor tells me to transition, and my parents don't let me do it, they are breaking the law? o.o That's kind of mind-blowing.
I'm not going to show them right now, though. I'm going to show them after the doctor says I need to transition because they won't even consider my thoughts at the moment
Also, my mom thinks that I'm "not depressed" because I was just reading what Silvermist said and I laughed a little because I was surprised, and my mom (who's nearby watching TV) is like "Honey, you're not depressed. See? You can laugh." Seriously...WTF?
Oh well...I'll just have to hope the doctor has training in this field of gender dysphoria so that my parents can shut up with their BS theories.

Quote from: lavini557 on August 04, 2013, 08:42:29 PM
So, if the doctor tells me to transition, and my parents don't let me do it, they are breaking the law? o.o That's kind of mind-blowing.
I'm not going to show them right now, though. I'm going to show them after the doctor says I need to transition because they won't even consider my thoughts at the moment
Also, my mom thinks that I'm "not depressed" because I was just reading what Silvermist said and I laughed a little because I was surprised, and my mom (who's nearby watching TV) is like "Honey, you're not depressed. See? You can laugh." Seriously...WTF?
Oh well...I'll just have to hope the doctor has training in this field of gender dysphoria so that my parents can shut up with their BS theories.

To be honest, I'm not sure if you have legal remedies to make your parents allow you to transition.  I'm not an authority on that so my opinion is only opinion.  There are child protection laws and parents are expected to get their child life saving treatments.  Whether transitioning will fall under that is very doubtful to me. 

Having said that, it is important that you get help for your depression.  If your parents ignore that you feel depressed and won't allow you to see a therapist, you can always talk to a counselor or a social worker at your school.  As you are younger, there are services available for you to take advantage of.  I can't say this will lead to transitioning prior to adulthood, but this may allow you to discuss the depression issues with someone and that will help and may communicate your feelings to your parents. 

Quote from: learningtolive on August 04, 2013, 08:23:10 PMI don't want to disagree with the severity of neglecting this, but I don't think any parent would find themselves in trouble with social services for not allowing their child to transition.

Quote from: learningtoliveTo be honest, I'm not sure if you have legal remedies to make your parents allow you to transition.  I'm not an authority on that so my opinion is only opinion.  There are child protection laws and parents are expected to get their child life saving treatments.  Whether transitioning will fall under that is very doubtful to me.

Why don't we try it and see? There is not a legal weakness in the case. If you think that there is such a weakness, then please explain what it is.

The law is clear. Medical professionals are clear. If, for example, there are parents who refuse to allow treatments for life-threatening conditions like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, then wouldn't that qualify as criminal child abuse/neglect on their part? And if we all continue to believe that transition is not on par with treatments for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, then we will never be taken as seriously as our condition deserves because we won't fight for that recognition. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you see? Child abuse is child abuse. It can never be taken seriously enough, because the shocking volume of child mistreatment in this country proves that people are all too willing to dismiss cases that don't conform to the stereotype of beating or rape.

It only takes ONE major court case. Do you know of Lawrence v. Texas? That was the Supreme Court case in 2003 (ONLY TEN years ago) that overturned anti-sodomy laws for the country. How long have tens of millions of Americans been practicing "sodomy"? Who took such laws seriously until they were challenged in court?

Quote from: Silvermist on August 04, 2013, 09:03:55 PM
Why don't we try it and see? There is not a legal weakness in the case. If you think that there is such a weakness, then please explain what it is.

The law is clear. Medical professionals are clear. If, for example, there are parents who refuse to allow treatments for life-threatening conditions like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, then wouldn't that qualify as criminal child abuse/neglect on their part? And if we all continue to believe that transition is not on par with treatments for bipolar disorder, then we will never be taken as seriously as our condition deserves because we won't fight for that recognition. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you see? Child abuse is child abuse. It can never be taken seriously enough, because the shocking volume of child mistreatment in this country proves that people are all too willing to dismiss cases that don't conform to the stereotype of beating or rape.

It only takes ONE major court case. Do you know of Lawrence v. Texas? That was the Supreme Court case in 2003 (ONLY TEN years ago) that overturned anti-sodomy laws for the country. How long have tens of millions of Americans been practicing "sodomy"? Who took such laws seriously until they were challenged in court?

I agree with you from a supportive standpoint, but I'm not sure if one has the legal ability to make their parents support transitioning.  That was all I was saying.  I think you do raise important issues by letting the op know that she can report child abuse if she feels she needs to exercise her legal protections or is in need of  intervention.

As for anti sodomy laws,  Lawrence V. Texas  came after Bowers V Hardwick.  They were taken seriously for a long time unfortunately. Nonetheless, that is distinct from the topic at hand.  The OP is looking for what can be done in the here and now, and I don't want to tell her it is against the law for their parents to prevent her from transitioning if I don't know whether it is or is not.  I'm not a lawyer or a police office, so that is beyond my place to answer as I have no right to pretend I have credentials that I lack. 

Again, I agree with your sentiments and agree that child abuse is a serious issue.  If the op feels that she is being abused in any way, she should make sure to report it asap.  That's why I suggest the school social worker as they are best able to intervene in these manners.  The doctors can do so as well.  There are many ways for her to remedy the situation and ensure she gets medical help she deserves. No child should suffer from depression and not get the help they need. 

OP,

I wanted to throw it out there that you can contact some great organizations to find out any legal information on transgender minors.  Most of the information I have heard/read says that things like hormones require parental consent if you are under 18, but they would better serve you than any of us on the forums if you are interested in the legal aspects of transgender minors.  I did a quick search and didn't find much information that said a child could use the force of law to sway their parents to get treatment for GID in general, but I don't know for certain.  That's why I recommend you contact legal professionals that fight for the rights of LGBT individuals as they could give you a more definitive answer.  Here are some:

The ACLU
Human Rights Campaign
LAMBDA Legal
National Center for Transgender Equality

As for right now, I would make sure that you get help for your depression.  If your parents won't let you see a therapist and you still feel depressed, please reach out to a school counselor or social worker.  While I can't guarantee anything about transitioning, as I don't know, you should be able to get access to the mental care that you deserve and need. You will be okay and you will move forward wonderfully in life.   Good luck with everything.

Sadly it is unlikely to be cut and dried and being the seminal case to prove a legal principle is not a helpful place to be (though extremely helpful for those that follow).  I highly doubt one would be thrown in jail or lose parental rights for refusing to medicate a bipolar child (FYI that too is a recent admission by the medical community, that children can suffer from it).  I highly doubt your parents will get in trouble for refusing to help here either.  Sad, but likely true in many states.

The art of persuasion involves a study of your rights and your legal standing, sure. However, like in many areas of the law, what you have here is a pure negotiation. 

Do you need them?

If so, what will persuade them?

That's it.

The more adept you are at understanding human behavior and within that understanding the unique approach of your parents as individuals and as a couple together (for example which one influences the other), the better chance you have to obtain what you want.

The foregoing is best stated with a phrase I use all the time, "would you rather say what you want to say or get what you want to get?"

If you need them, figure out what they need to see and hear and give them that.  To that end, I highly doubt threats of intervention for the neglect of a child will get you what you want, I mean what you need.