This is something I've been thinking about recently and I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings with this post, I just want to see other people's opinions. Most of the time, people pass really well, but other times they may not, but they try and are confident with it. I wonder though, do people gender people correctly because the person genuinely passes,or out of respect? For example, a mtf comes into my work and she doesn't pass, but there's noway I'd call her sir because to me that's just down right disrespectful. I also know other people who do not pass (myself included) but people gender them correctly. I think sometimes this is done out of respect. People could just misgender them even though you can tell that they are trying to pass but they choose not to. This makes me think about the whole passing thing and I question in the future if I will actually be passing, or if people will be doing it out of respect. I'm not sure how well I have explained this, but I'm interested in people's responses.

Its possible and likely that you will have some of both. 

Quote from: Joey. on August 03, 2013, 08:00:46 PM
I wonder though, do people gender people correctly because the person genuinely passes,or out of respect?

Both. It's really hard to tell the difference. Usually if I get a big smile from a woman, she didn't clock me. But it might be because she did and she wanted to show she was an ally.

To me it doesn't make a difference. If people treat me as if I haven't been clocked, that's all this girl could ask for.

Guys are different. Even allies won't act attracted to a trans girl unless they really are. So when a guy shows romantic interest (and I find that easy to spot) I'm pretty sure I'm passing.

The problems are when people clearly aren't sure or they spot something off and I see the telltale scowl of disapproval, the stare of uncertainty or the self-satisfied smirk of having figured out something that no one else noticed. That's demoralizing.

I actually don't think it's out of respect. First of all, most people don't know about trans people, especially FTM. They just assume butch lesbian - actually, I've had a lot of people tell me they are really nervous about calling butch lesbians "he" because they snap "I'M A WOMAN."

And I find people who try to "respect" me actually misgender me more than people who claim to know nothing about transgender. Because they stumble.

I get some of both. I think women pick up on this faster than men.

If I don't pass I hope that people would at least respect me, and gender me as I am presenting.

I'm sure it's both. Even before I was on T, I don't think I was passing in the slightest but people would at least not misgender me. I think in all cases it was being respectful. My gf is trans. Not sure she looks too female but most of the time they treat he as a female. It seems like many people may be decent but I don't want to get my hopes up here.

--Jay

For me it's both and if I'm out to someone by mentioning it I consistently get acceptance and respect. In fact if I'm misgendered you're more likely to upset or offend someone in my life than you are me and some of them are not shy at all about pointing it out.

Haha! I get the same worries and I need to know too, damnit! 

I hope that the public will understand that I'm not presenting as male and therefore use the right pronoun as a result of their understanding. But at the same time I really want to know if I've passed or not, as its the whole point, the successful blending in. Its one of those inner dilemmas where you'll never be satisfied :-p Unless you simply stop caring, which I am told, is the actual way of "winning" and thus eliminating the need to know (whether you've passed or you're being treated fairly) anyway.

Quote from: Ketchup Packet on August 03, 2013, 09:28:06 PM
I actually don't think it's out of respect. First of all, most people don't know about trans people, especially FTM. They just assume butch lesbian - actually, I've had a lot of people tell me they are really nervous about calling butch lesbians "he" because they snap "I'M A WOMAN."

And I find people who try to "respect" me actually misgender me more than people who claim to know nothing about transgender. Because they stumble.

Yeah, I would think trans women are more often correctly gendered out of respect even if they're not passing than we would be. Simply because its easier to tell when female pronouns are appropriate. For us, if we're not passing, no one can see that male pronouns are appropriate.
This may be different in certain LGBT spaces, but the world at large only knows to use male pronouns if we're passing.

It's like asking, does this make me look fat. Some will lie, some will not.

It's like making a cake, and asking if it tastes good. Some will lie and some will not.

Some people have the needed personality to know the correct time to lie and tell you what you 'need' to know.

There are rare situations when telling the lie is not an option, as to say the wrong thing, just makes you believe in a lie that might actually harm you.

It is ok to say a dress looks good on a woman even if it might not look all that great, if the saying so is not going to cause harm.

I don't want my friends to say I look great, if I clearly don't and the belief I do puts me at risk of looking the fool.
I'd rather a friend tell me 'umm Lesley, that ain't going to cut it, you need to keep working on this look'.

Cindy sent me a wig, which when I get the nerve, I will be taking to a salon friend and asking her, can you make this look good on me, and if the answer is no, I expect her to not just fuss with it and tell me it looks ok if it doesn't. Because, if I need a different wig, I require her to aid me in finding it.

I don't want to step out the door and be under false illusions.

If I walk into a store, oooooobviously dressed as a woman, made up to look like a woman, wearing a woman's hair style, and carrying a purse and wearing perfume, I require a stranger to have the needed intellect to realize, I probably expect to be treated as a woman, because, unless it is Halloween, why the hell would they think it was a costume? Calling me sir, will only make me think the person is rude, stupid, or both.

I won't require strangers to think I am the personification of beauty hehe. But I do require a person at least know I am not searching for insulting treatment.

It's impossible to know I think, but to me it makes little difference because in Norwegian, my native language, we don't use gender specific words when we address people. No-one ever says "ma'am", "sir", "mister", love" etc. I can only tell if I overhear someone talking about me in third person using "she" or "her", and that only happens maybe once or twice a year.

I find that going to bed with men without informing them of my past first is the best way to know, and even then I'm not 100% sure. Sometimes they ask about birth control, and I feel pretty confidant I pass. Then I realize it might have been a test, and I'm not so sure anymore. I just started seeing a guy a while back and it's going pretty well. Perhaps in time, if things get serious, I will bring it up and maybe get my answer, all depending on how he reacts.

I find it is hard to trust that people aren't just humoring me. When I transitioned it took years and years before friends and family stopped with the slip-ups. In fact, it took so long I no longer believe them when they gender me correctly or use my correct name. I think they're faking.

>It's impossible to know sometimes.

For sure maybe. But I often have a pretty good sense if I am passing (dislike the word actually as it implies some type of foolery here). Anyway, I kind of know whether they use sir or not. Men talk differently to people they perceive as men and women talk differently to women. (I've noticed that women to men interactioins.) Men are MUCH more helpful to other men; they tend to talk to other men more casually, etc. Women are more solicitous to other women; they compliment them more; they develop a sisterly (in some cases) affinity for lack of a better word; they tend to be more business like with men. I've been places where my gf passes and I can see the same thing with her. Women compliment women a lot more, so that they might like her earrings and so on. Makes sense since in our society a compliment to the other sex is kind of a pick-up line.
It's ok, as I don't want to be complimented on such things anyway and have nothing to compliment anyway. (Yeah trans guys compliment each other, but that's ok.)

Favorite pass-- dentist keeps calling me "buddy". Actually not really a pass since the dentist actually knows I'm trans. I think he is forgetting actually. Makes sense that that would happen too. I forget maybe a few minutes a day.
Another favorite-- guy calls me "senor". Never been senorred before!!

--Jay