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Do any of us really pass? Ever?

Started by Carlita, July 31, 2013, 05:29:14 AM

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Katie

You know people I detest the P word. I see it used all the time and you know one of the definitions of the word is to put forth something that is not what it actually is.

I don't know about you all but I am a woman. I am nothing more and nothing less. I will never you the P word. I am just a woman.

Katie
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Carlita

Quote from: Donna Elvira on August 02, 2013, 12:33:36 PM
Hi Carlita,
Given your kids ages,  we are probably in a similar age group. I have three kids, now aged 28, 24 and 20. I came out to all 3 of them 2 years ago. My son, the 24 year old, was OK with my transition right from the beginning but my two daughters found it more difficult, especially the eldest. Two years down the road I am now filing for my civil identity change and for this I need testimonials from as many people as possible testifying to the fact that I already live full time as a woman. I asked my kids would they contribute and all three agreed to.

You will find a few extracts from the letter my eldest  daughter wrote below. She started explaining how I had come out in July 2011 and then continued as follows.

"Since then, we have had many occasions to rediscuss the subject  and because of this I have finally understood that it was a real, innate need,  indispensable for his(her) physical and mental well being"

"These last two years, I have observed a huge change in my father, who, in parallel to extensive cosmetic surgeries,  has adopted female dress since coming out and explaining the situation to his (her) children. His (her) personality has also changed with the emergence of a far more gentle side and a shift in his(her) centers of interest towards far more feminine pursuits."

« Today, my father is no longer at all the man we used to know and it is becoming difficult to accept this ambiguous situation where everything about his appearance and personality is feminine while his (her) official identity remains masculine »

She is still uncomfortable with many aspects of my transition, which I genuinely understand,  but because there is love, trust and because we took things one little step at a time, she was OK to write a letter which will contribute to the final disappearance of the father image she struggled so hard to let go of.

Based on this experience, as long as you do things in a manner which is respectful of them, I am sure that as adults, your kids can handle you telling them who you really are.

Wishing you all the best.   
Donna

P.S. From a very tough starting point,among others I am 6'1",  I now pass  comfortably. I did go through FFS to get there but agree with others that confidence also plays a major role. However it is difficult to develop that confidence before you are into the full time phase so at some stage you just have to go for it.

Hi Donna ... I'm so sorry I didn't reply to you sooner, but I've been away on holiday with no internet connection - kind of frustrating, but also an incredible relief in some ways!
Anyway, I'm so happy for you that you've been able to bring your children with you on your journey. It would make such a huge difference to me if I thought I could do the same.
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A

Some start further down the road, some have a lot of work to do, and there are many in the middle. Me, unless people knew my name (and even then, some thought my parents had been very original by giving a male name to a girl), knew that I was supposed to be a guy, people mostly thought I was a girl, before really transitioning, and I wasn't especially trying to look like a girl. Despite having no waist to speak of. Despite my Adam's apple. Despite my abundant body hair (arms x.x). Despite a masculine jaw and chin. Despite ugly, bushy, thick eyebrows.

Sound like a girl, have hair that looks rather like a girl's than a guy's, and chances are you'll pass.

Now, if you're older, "chances are" that it won't be so easy. Even then. When I look through the member pictures, whenever someone who's been on HRT for long enough doesn't pass, very rarely is it not because the person is obese/severely overweight, hasn't had hair removal, hasn't been trying very hard (or has been doing something absolutely wrong) or hasn't taken care of their baldness yet. And even cases not in that category (which is not many), what, 90 % would pass more than fine with facial surgery.

Granted, the more you age, the more male characteristics pile up on you, the more expensive, the more work it's likely to be. But how many trans women cannot pass convincingly even after surgery? Honestly, there must be very, very few. (Also, the older you are, the more money you should have. As a poor student whose available income has been cut by almost 10 % recently (no more medication reimbursement), I doubt I can still muster even 50 $ a month, from my income of ~900 $. At your age, it's likely that you have at least twice that. Surely, costs are less scary when you look at it this way, hmm?
A's Transition Journal
Last update: June 11th, 2012
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Ms. OBrien CVT

Anyone - and I do mean anyone, who has the idea that they need to try to PASS as something they are not, is completely wasting their time and should not even think about thinking about this treatment... The whole concept of passing is flawed. I have never tried to pass as anything other than myself - which of course I do 100% of the time...  I transitioned not in order to be seen as either a man or woman, but to be seen as more authentically myself! Now as I happen to be female it follows that this tends to imply being seen as female. Although when it comes to other peoples perception as to what and who they decide I am, I leave that up to those who observe me to make their minds up. I find that they always come to a conclusion that I agree with.

This of course is just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.

  
It does not take courage or bravery to change your gender.  It takes fear of living one more day in the wrong one.~me
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noleen111

I say yes. I pass and I am never mistaken as male.

I am always called miss.

But passing is more than clothes and looks, it also how you act.. little things, like sitting like a lady, legs closed lol
When I was pre-hrt, I am would watch women,, How they interact with each other, the way they walk, the way they dressed. Dressing to suit your age group also helps. 
e.g. I noticed when a woman is wearing a skirt/dress, they run there hand across there buts to straighten their dress/skirt before sitting down. small details are important..

Another tip, makeup.. wear the appropriate amount .. e.g Woman tend to wear darker and more eye makeup at night.. during the day its lighter colors and less eye makeup.
Enjoying ride the hormones are giving me... finally becoming the woman I always knew I was
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vegie271

Quote from: A on August 13, 2013, 09:26:21 AM
Granted, the more you age, the more male characteristics pile up on you, the more expensive, the more work it's likely to be. But how many trans women cannot pass convincingly even after surgery? Honestly, there must be very, very few. (Also, the older you are, the more money you should have. As a poor student whose available income has been cut by almost 10 % recently (no more medication reimbursement), I doubt I can still muster even 50 $ a month, from my income of ~900 $. At your age, it's likely that you have at least twice that. Surely, costs are less scary when you look at it this way, hmm?



Well - I have had no surgeries at all and I do fine - just HRT & electrolysis (a WHOLE lot of that! a fortune)

and of course at that income you can't even take advantage of the fact that the stuff is tax deductible.  :'( it is enough of your income but at that level I know you don't pay any because neither do I at my level (at least if we are talking US)


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kelly_aus

Quote from: iiii on August 13, 2013, 10:15:16 AM
I don't know really, I think a lot of people need body surgeries too. Even with a fairly feminine face, one might not pass because of an excessively masculine body shape.
That is kind of obvious though? Most want to pass as female, because that's the sex they feel they should be. Transitioning with a goal on passing as female is a pretty good, and normal, idea.

Is it a 'normal' goal? Sure.. Is it actually achievable. not always.
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Natkat

being non-mtf I can say I both meet mtfs who pass very well and mtfs who dont its individual depending on each person and transition, area, suroundings and many diffrent facts.
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Joanna Dark

I pass, apparently, and I know there is this whole debate on whether it is important or not. However, the people who say it doesn't matter aren't taking into account people who live where I live. Quite frankly, not passing is dangerous. Go into a women's room near me and don't pass, you better be tough cause you're going to get into a fight. Is that right? Of course not. But it doesn't make it any less true. Three trans women have been killed in the last two years near me. So sometimes passing is more then just vanity. That being said I am moving from here soon and I I wonder how important passing would be if it wasn't so necessary. Lucklily I think I pass so I don't have this problem. But ugh it really gets to me sometimes and it can be really, really scary.
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JaredLeBlanc

Girls, i am sorry for being here cos this forum is for girls only but i wanted to say something. I hope you don't mind cos i really need to comment on this topic. :)

I have seen some MTFs that pass 100%. I am a FTM, so it's not a white lie or something like that because i am a guy and i want to keep it this way. Yes, there are some girls that don't pass but hormone therapy can work wonders, you can also experiment with make-up and the most important thing - try working on your voice. I have seen a lot of MTFs that pass 100% but then they open their mouth and start talking... So voice is like the most important thing!!! You need to work on it! There are a lot of tall cis women, there are some masculine women but your voice can give you away. Just my 2 cents. :)
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Saffron

I think the word pass or passing should be buried and use the word blend or blending instead.

I don't want to "pass" as a cisgirl, I want to blend, and only in public spaces. With friends, family, etc... I just want to be me  ;)
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Tessa James

Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 11:49:42 AM
Girls, i am sorry for being here cos this forum is for girls only but i wanted to say something. I hope you don't mind cos i really need to comment on this topic. :)

I have seen some MTFs that pass 100%. I am a FTM, so it's not a white lie or something like that because i am a guy and i want to keep it this way. Yes, there are some girls that don't pass but hormone therapy can work wonders, you can also experiment with make-up and the most important thing - try working on your voice. I have seen a lot of MTFs that pass 100% but then they open their mouth and start talking... So voice is like the most important thing!!! You need to work on it! There are a lot of tall cis women, there are some masculine women but your voice can give you away. Just my 2 cents. :)

Hey Jared,

I welcome your input and that of our whole wide circle of trans people here.   This is not a girls only forum by any rule I am aware of.  We benefit from diverse voices and perspectives.  Personal development is enhanced by this kind of reflection and trying on new ideas.  I am seeing a speech therapist and agree that our voices can say more than we intend sometimes!?
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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mrs izzy

For me it one thing i never fell for in this whole process. Pass as who?
I never cared but if i had to say something then yes i pass as me. No one else but me and i find nothing wrong with that.
I never cared what society feels about me. I live life as me every single day. Even a bad hair day no makeup makes me feel good about myself.
Self image is one of them things most deal with and turns into one of the big fear triggers. I have found in all these years most people are more worried about going about there own day and do not care a bit on how you look. And if they do then who cares.

So again I pass as me and happy.

Izzy
Mrs. Izzy
Trans lifeline US 877-565-8860 CAD 877-330-6366 http://www.translifeline.org/
"Those who matter will never judge, this is my given path to walk in life and you have no right to judge"

I used to be grounded but now I can fly.
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JaredLeBlanc

Quote from: Tessa James on August 13, 2013, 12:09:52 PM
Hey Jared,

I welcome your input and that of our whole wide circle of trans people here.   This is not a girls only forum by any rule I am aware of.  We benefit from diverse voices and perspectives.  Personal development is enhanced by this kind of reflection and trying on new ideas.  I am seeing a speech therapist and agree that our voices can say more than we intend sometimes!?

Thanks Tessa! I am very happy that you agree with me and that you are seeing a speech therapist! As i said before, your voice can be the crucial factor in whether you pass or not. Look-wise it's not that hard to pass. All you need is make-up and clothes, plus no facial hair. People won't question you when you have all of those. But your voice can give you away.

But anyway, there are quite a lot of cis women with deep voices, some women smoke a lot and therefore their voices become deeper. Some of them don't smoke at all and still have quite a deep voice. But it's still a bit higher than a man's voice. So you just need to work on it. I am sure you can make it higher!

As for me, i am pre-T but i can lower my voice when i want. I have to think about it all the time. When i am not thinking about it i sound like a female with a lower voice but still a female. :( So i have to control myself all the time. Which isn't easy at all. I have to think about 2 things: what do i want to say and which voice do i wanna use for that? It's very hard!  :-\ Other people have to think only about one thing - what they want to say. And i have to deal with 2. But it's worth it.

What about you?
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Michelle S.

Here's the truth as I see it.

First, I think your wife is really being irrational about they don't pass as or act like normal women. Women are people; people are individuals; individuals are all different. That's like saying all guys are the same. It's just simply not the case. Just because one woman is primp and proper doesn't mean the next is. Some girls wear makeup and do their hair, some have never worn make up ever!

But, with that said here is the straight truth: There is zero guarantee that you will pass. Sadly, that's the truth. Some transwomen/men get all the surgery in the world and still have that hint of their birth sex about them. It happens. This is why your therapist should be making it at a point that you have to be ready to deal with the possibility that you will never pass.

Also, something to remember too is that your outcome depends heavily on how much effort you put into it. If you exercise, eat well (fatty foods help with adding weight to certain areas but you have to balance it) and take vitamins/supplements you results will be much better than if you veg out on the couch your entire transition. 


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Tessa James

Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 12:36:59 PM
Thanks Tessa! I am very happy that you agree with me and that you are seeing a speech therapist! As i said before, your voice can be the crucial factor in whether you pass or not. Look-wise it's not that hard to pass. All you need is make-up and clothes, plus no facial hair. People won't question you when you have all of those. But your voice can give you away.

But anyway, there are quite a lot of cis women with deep voices, some women smoke a lot and therefore their voices become deeper. Some of them don't smoke at all and still have quite a deep voice. But it's still a bit higher than a man's voice. So you just need to work on it. I am sure you can make it higher!

As for me, i am pre-T but i can lower my voice when i want. I have to think about it all the time. When i am not thinking about it i sound like a female with a lower voice but still a female. :( So i have to control myself all the time. Which isn't easy at all. I have to think about 2 things: what do i want to say and which voice do i wanna use for that? It's very hard!  :-\ Other people have to think only about one thing - what they want to say. And i have to deal with 2. But it's worth it.


What about you?


As you probably know HRT for the girls has no impact on changing our voices.  My transman friends on T are so lucky to get that change.  Relative to the topic I want to consider changes to my voice not to pass but for my own comfort and identity alignment.  I don't want to live in fear that I might cough or do something that gives me away.  Passing is not my goal.  Feeling closer to what I felt was my lifetime feminine shadow is.  Yes, we have more to "think" about when we open our mouths;-)
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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JaredLeBlanc

Quote from: Tessa James on August 13, 2013, 12:52:30 PM

As you probably know HRT for the girls has no impact on changing our voices.  My transman friends on T are so lucky to get that change.  Relative to the topic I want to consider changes to my voice not to pass but for my own comfort and identity alignment.  I don't want to live in fear that I might cough or do something that gives me away.  Passing is not my goal.  Feeling closer to what I felt was my lifetime feminine shadow is.  Yes, we have more to "think" about when we open our mouths;-)

I thought HRT can slightly change your voice? Anyway, we all have our ups and downs. As you know, FTMs must go through the top surgery, otherwise we don't pass (binding is not an option for me and for many other FTMs because it's very uncomfortable and you can't go out shirtless). And you girls can grow breasts on HRT without any top surgery! :D This is amazing! Of course if you want a very big breast you can have a surgery for that but you can pass with small breasts too! ;) There are so many cis women with small breasts! :)

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Joanna Dark

Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 01:09:43 PM
I thought HRT can slightly change your voice?

I don't think it effects it that much but for me it is much easier to sound female then pre-HRT. I don't know if it is the pitch or whatever but I pass and when I open my mouth nobody thinks anything. I do have to work at it though and I can slip back into the male register. I think I am an alto. I know after my voice deepened and I stopped being a soprano at 15, the teacher told me I'm an alto or contralto or whatever. My voice hasn't changed since then. I have a pretty high voice for a MAAB person.

Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 01:09:43 PM
And you girls can grow breasts on HRT without any top surgery! :D This is amazing! Of course if you want a very big breast you can have a surgery for that but you can pass with small breasts too! ;) There are so many cis women with small breasts! :)

It is amazing. One doesn't always need surgery though. When I walk my boobs bounce like something fierce. They are not huge or anything but look pretty big cause I have such a tiny frame. I hope they get big enough where I don't have to use tape to create cleavage. Right now, if I tape them a little, I get AMAZING cleavage.

Quote from: chuck on August 13, 2013, 01:22:58 PM
do any of these ladies pass?
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html

Most of them pass. Gawd I hope I can get to that point.
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vegie271

Quote from: chuck on August 13, 2013, 01:22:58 PM
do any of these ladies pass?
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html



I am sure if they did not let themselves be outed on that site you would never know, same as me being outed at the Gay & lesbian Center, I was at the Lesbian Ladies night for 3 years before anyone had any idea I was trans  ;D

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