Joanna Dark

I am happy for you Joanna! I am happy that you can pass so well!

As i said we all have our ups and downs. Being FTM seems easier at first because T can do SO much, basically anyone can look masculine if they start taking T so passing seems pretty easy. No one will think that a person with a beard and a manly voice used to be a biological female.  But then, there is a top surgery, we have to go through this. Lots of money and stress, and hassle. Plus, the bottom surgery is much more complicated and much more expensive. It takes 3 stages to get it done.

I know that many FTMs are happy without the bottom surgery but i am not the one. I need to be complete inside and out. What about you? What do you think about the bottom surgery?

Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 02:05:47 PM
Joanna Dark

I am happy for you Joanna! I am happy that you can pass so well!

As i said we all have our ups and downs. Being FTM seems easier at first because T can do SO much, basically anyone can look masculine if they start taking T so passing seems pretty easy. No one will think that a person with a beard and a manly voice used to be a biological female.  But then, there is a top surgery, we have to go through this. Lots of money and stress, and hassle. Plus, the bottom surgery is much more complicated and much more expensive. It takes 3 stages to get it done.

I know that many FTMs are happy without the bottom surgery but i am not the one. I need to be complete inside and out. What about you? What do you think about the bottom surgery?

ours is easier and better - but for so many of us - still massively out of the realm of possibility - in fact not possible at all for me - medicare refuses to pay for it - and it is illegal for me to save for it - society has basically stated flat out I cannot ever have surgery in my life - I was prevented from having it when I had the money once by a group through reparative therapy

Quote from: vegie271 on August 13, 2013, 03:51:28 PM


ours is easier and better - but for so many of us - still massively out of the realm of possibility - in fact not possible at all for me - medicare refuses to pay for it - and it is illegal for me to save for it - society has basically stated flat out I cannot ever have surgery in my life - I was prevented from having it when I had the money once by a group through reparative therapy

Oh girl... I know some countries and some places are really hard to deal with but i also know that there are surgeons out there who will do the bottom surgery without any medical statements. I know that there are some girls and boys out there who just went to Thailand and had their surgeries without any legal papers or medical statements. But of course it costs a lot. I know if we had money we could do anything we want. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the money to do what they need to do. We are stuck with this situation because we don't have enough money to pay for everything...

Quote from: iiii on August 13, 2013, 04:14:33 PM
can't you trust the money to somebody else, who will then "pay" for your surgery?

several problems with that

1) it is illegal (minor I know but it is one) - if they ever do detect it I lose not just my medicare but ny SSI forever and go to prison (male lockup)

B) I have no friends

iii) even if I started now it would be 2021 until I could afford it - I would be 59 (not too bad with my life expectancy of 72) this is only assuming the price does not go up (bad assumption isn't it! so add at least a year maybe two since budget of other things messes up this means only 11 years of post op)

for what? the possibility that after all of that maybe eventually some womyn would date me?

I have been on HRT for 20 years and full time for 6 will have been full time 17 by then .....

Quote from: vegie271 on August 13, 2013, 05:24:30 PM


I have been on HRT for 20 years and full time for 6 will have been full time 17 by then .....

Wait you've been on HRT for 20 years and only full time for six of them? How does that work? I've been taking hormones for only five months and I can't pass as male. I either pass as female or transsexual. I couldn't just say I'm male. People look at me like I just swallowed a canary. I know I'm really lucky but I imagine given enought time on hormones this is pretty regular outcome to no longer pass as male. I thought I'd be ab;e to go a year or even indefinitely without anyone knowing and that plan was scuttled by the three month mark.

But TBH I prolly just confuse people and they default to female, maybe. I'm still surprised when I pass.

I was married for a long time to someone and that prevented me from deciding to present full time - once she died I was not ready to do anything quite yet - she committed suicide through some real hard circumstances - the whole reason I met her was due to the fact I was in a place that had put me through reparative therapy keeping me from having the surgery which I had saved up for (I actually had the money and a surgeon lined up in 1989)

Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on August 13, 2013, 09:54:56 AM
Anyone - and I do mean anyone, who has the idea that they need to try to PASS as something they are not, is completely wasting their time and should not even think about thinking about this treatment... The whole concept of passing is flawed. I have never tried to pass as anything other than myself - which of course I do 100% of the time...  I transitioned not in order to be seen as either a man or woman, but to be seen as more authentically myself! Now as I happen to be female it follows that this tends to imply being seen as female. Although when it comes to other peoples perception as to what and who they decide I am, I leave that up to those who observe me to make their minds up. I find that they always come to a conclusion that I agree with.

This of course is just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.

This vastly depends on your personality. If you're individualistic and very self-confident/charismatic, that's absolutely true. For whoever isn't in that case (and to be honest I think that's most people), it's important to feel normal, to feel like you belong, to feel like a girl. Unless taken to extremes, that's not especially unhealthy. It's just natural. Whoever does not change themselves (or wants to do so) considering others is rather special, I'd say.

Quote from: vegie271 on August 13, 2013, 11:02:32 AM


Well - I have had no surgeries at all and I do fine - just HRT & electrolysis (a WHOLE lot of that! a fortune)

and of course at that income you can't even take advantage of the fact that the stuff is tax deductible.  it is enough of your income but at that level I know you don't pay any because neither do I at my level (at least if we are talking US)

Yeah, I don't pay any taxes, if that's what you mean. I'm too poor for that. Anyway for sure electrolysis isn't deductible for me. It can be entirely reimbursed if proven necessary (check) and performed entirely by a doctor (not check... whatever doctor does an esthetician's job? Silly law.) And medications are partly paid for by the government, but I still pay a bit over 80 $ a month for everything I take.

The student financial aid used to reimburse that for me, but no more, because apparently this year my 10 000 $ of income is plenty and I don't qualify for help - that's the nature of my recent financial problems) The part that you pay is tax deductible, in a portion, too, but again, I pay no such thing. Funny how when you're rich enough, you actually gain savings. Bus passes are also tax deductible if you're rich enough to pay taxes. Love stupidly thought-out systems.

By the way, nope, I'm not in the US.

Quote from: iiii on August 13, 2013, 10:15:16 AM
I don't know really, I think a lot of people need body surgeries too. Even with a fairly feminine face, one might not pass because of an excessively masculine body shape.

Yeah, I can't deny that. But even then, for the vast majority, at worst what's going to be affected is their passability when in a bikini. And then... People will have doubts but then see breasts and go "well, that girl was just pretty unlucky, eh" 99 % of the time. There's a trans girl I saw. Honestly when I look at her in a bikini, I think her passability is so-so. But then if I look at her breasts, and cannot possibly see a guy in her. Just a girl with a not so ideal body.

Body shape, outside extreme and rare cases, can hardly be such a big barrier on passing, I think. Especially if you know about it and camouflage the problem. Here I basically have no waist to speak of, and my body shape is everything but womanly except maybe the slightly large hips for a man. Yet even though some clothes (like most dresses) make me look ugly because of my body shape, a lot of what I wear (and like) camouflages the disadvantageous parts of my body and there, magic, I pass very convincingly and hardly look weird.

Passing without trying in any sort of clothes whatsoever isn't for everyone, sure. And I'll admit it is sad sometimes to have to sacrifice some clothes because they make your body look manly. But is that really the end of the world? And no one says that HRT, well-targeted exercise and dieting won't make things better. Or that fat transfer surgeries aren't a valid last resort option.

Quote from: A on August 13, 2013, 09:17:54 PM
Body shape, outside extreme and rare cases, can hardly be such a big barrier on passing, I think. Especially if you know about it and camouflage the problem. Here I basically have no waist to speak of, and my body shape is everything but womanly except maybe the slightly large hips for a man. Yet even though some clothes (like most dresses) make me look ugly because of my body shape, a lot of what I wear (and like) camouflages the disadvantageous parts of my body and there, magic, I pass very convincingly and hardly look weird.

Passing without trying in any sort of clothes whatsoever isn't for everyone, sure. And I'll admit it is sad sometimes to have to sacrifice some clothes because they make your body look manly. But is that really the end of the world? And no one says that HRT, well-targeted exercise and dieting won't make things better. Or that fat transfer surgeries aren't a valid last resort option.

yeah but but but - I have the same body my mother had - she did not have a waist  either -  it is weird - when I transitioned in 1987 a friend saw me on the street coming towards him the first time I had seen him and he did not see me so I got out of my car and ran towards him and he stopped dead and just stared "who is this womyn just running at me?" and when I was right at him suddenly he recognized me and he was shocked he  realized I look exactly like her - it was the first time he saw it.

I'm sorry but could you reformulate? I'm not following what you're trying to tell me very well. Also, womyn? Typo?

Just give wait for the magic of HRT to happen to you.

Hormones are one hell of a drug let me tell you. Most of us trans people have things about us that are masculine that we unfortunately can't change (I have broad shoulders). Don't doubt yourself. Be confident!

Quote from: A on August 13, 2013, 09:52:06 PM
I'm sorry but could you reformulate? I'm not following what you're trying to tell me very well. Also, womyn? Typo?

  nope - alternate Feminist spelling - I transitioned in 1987 I have this thing against men I have been a lesbian for a long time & I just do it - reformulate what?

I knew a guy in high school call him ted -

he said high to me one day in the locker room I said f you - later I saw him in band - he said high again he kept after me and we became friends

after I moved to LA he came to visit me after my transition - he was not sure what to expect - he had come down one day while I was still at work and stopped at a fast food and had dinner and was walking down the street and I saw him, I stopped my car and got out and ran towards him

at first he had no Idea who this strange person was running towards him was then with shock he saw my mother running towards him just somewhat younger

then he grabbed me and hugged me

got in my car and we continued on to my apartment

Quote from: vegie271 on August 13, 2013, 10:35:24 PM


  nope - alternate Feminist spelling - I transitioned in 1987 I have this thing against men I have been a lesbian for a long time & I just do it

Have you always disliked men this much? I know that horrible thing happened to you but not every guy is like that. I love them and am in love with one. I know I'm going to get hurt but I don't care. I'm sure I'll be crying to the good people of Susan's. Well I hope not. Gawd I don't want to be one of those girls who dreams of marriage right away. But it would be great and I haven't wore a wedding dress since 1998.

I think I'd make a pretty pretty bride. Then I'd sent the pics to my ex-fiance and tell her who is prettier now biotch! She said I would never ever be pretty and that I'd pass but I'd be fugly. Of course she wouldn't let me pluck my eyebrows as I'd be too pretty. She did wax them for me. Then left me. I think women can be a lot worse then men.

On the question of passing, blending and being yourself ...

I just want to feel as though my external presentation matches my internal self, so yes, I want to be the 'real me'

I'm vain and very particular about my appearance so I want to look as attractive and feminine as is possible for a 6ft gal in her 50s. I want to wear pretty clothes and enjoy doing my make-up and hair (even if it is a wig or a weave!) And I absolutely want to have a female voice, which is why I'm loving Jen's thread about her amazing Yeson surgery.

But what I really want is to be with a bunch of other women, doing something as boring as standing in line for the ladies' room. And when the other girls check me out - because all women check other women, and in much more detail than men ever do - I just want them to see a tall woman with enviably long legs but tragically big feet, not someone who makes them think, 'Omigod, is that a MAN??!!'

I hope that's not too much to ask.

Quote from: Carlita on August 14, 2013, 05:56:14 AM
But what I really want is to be with a bunch of other women, doing something as boring as standing in line for the ladies' room. And when the other girls check me out - because all women check other women, and in much more detail than men ever do - I just want them to see a tall woman with enviably long legs but tragically big feet, not someone who makes them think, 'Omigod, is that a MAN??!!'

I hope that's not too much to ask.

I have stood side-by-side with women in women's restrooms without wearing make-up and while wearing the same "boy clothes" that I've had for most of the last decade. Not once have I gotten a weird look in that situation. On the other hand, men have given me weird looks in men's restrooms, which is why I finally stopped using them two months ago.

Sure, I'm a few inches shorter and half your age, but your original question was whether trans women can "pass" well enough to not be clocked in situations like restrooms. It is possible for you.

Something else to keep in mind is that secondary sex characteristics fade with age, so appearance-wise, cis women in their 50s look much closer to cis men in their 50s than cis women in their 20s vs. cis men in their 20s. So your age may actually help you blend better, even if your height doesn't.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 13, 2013, 10:46:50 PM
Have you always disliked men this much? I know that horrible thing happened to you but not every guy is like that. I love them and am in love with one. I know I'm going to get hurt but I don't care. I'm sure I'll be crying to the good people of Susan's. Well I hope not. Gawd I don't want to be one of those girls who dreams of marriage right away. But it would be great and I haven't wore a wedding dress since 1998.

I think I'd make a pretty pretty bride. Then I'd sent the pics to my ex-fiance and tell her who is prettier now biotch! She said I would never ever be pretty and that I'd pass but I'd be fugly. Of course she wouldn't let me pluck my eyebrows as I'd be too pretty. She did wax them for me. Then left me. I think women can be a lot worse then men.

I have always been attracted to females - I knew I was this way very young - just my orientation - but in 1987 when I first transitioned they said you had to date men to get HRT - so I did - except for two it was an absolutely horrid experience - one was f2m he was just a one night stand (which I hate but at least he was nice about it) - The other one was an executive producer of the show Jeopardy, we dated for over a year he was very sweet - we even stayed friends for years. but eventually my therapist realized I hated doing this and let me "come out" and I went to the Gay & Lesbian Center in West Hollywood and I started meeting other lesbians.

I did not really start hating men at that point - just did not want to date them - they would leave me alone mostly except that they would always be jerks and hoot and whistle at me as I walked down the street or make nasty remarks I would hear construction workers say stuff as I walked down the road also (same stuff) I just got tired of the disrespect towards womyn (this is the attitude you get from lesbians  & feminists as I was learning (I had joined an encounter group with several cis womyn in stealth mode)   when I moved to my new city after losing my job later in 1991 I was out of work and the area could not support programmer so I went to a business school to learn secretarial stuff and there ran into other problems.

It is the aggregate of all of my encounters with men though these years and several times have had men come after me when I try to meet womyn either in person or online that I am so mad at them they are too many to list here I actually have many. 8 cases of scams online -  years of trying to meet womyn and men trolling for me and telling me "but why are you trolling for men then"  ...   "WTF!" every single ad I run explicitly says no men!

plus I have actually been raped 3 times - and a man had the nerve to just walk up to me on the street and just grab my breast - every time I ride the bus men tell me they can "cure my lesbianism" just give them a chance 

this is quickly becoming a rant not an explanation. but really these are my reasons. all of them carefully reasoned out. none exaggerated.

Sorry vegie271 I am a little confused why is it illegal for you to save up the money?

Quote from: EmeraldPerpugilliam on August 14, 2013, 11:51:54 AM
Sorry vegie271 I am a little confused why is it illegal for you to save up the money?

I am in the US - I am on SSI - it is one of the rules - if you are on SSI your assets are limited to $2000. period - total cash and savings - you can have a checking  that fluctuates through the month to pay bills but if your assets exceeds $2000 they will end your insurance and medicare bam and you are eligible to get it ever again.

But that's silly. Be reckless and never keep a penny, and we keep paying. Be smart and save up some, and then we cut you off? Sigh.

Quote from: A on August 14, 2013, 01:07:07 PM
But that's silly. Be reckless and never keep a penny, and we keep paying. Be smart and save up some, and then we cut you off? Sigh.

did I create the system? no! I just paid into it - I worked very hard at a job - then due to having been forced to work under impossible conditions while having been forced to detransition with reparative therapy keeping me from having the surgery that I had the money for  I finally broke - my mind snapped - they gave me SSI on the first try. They make the rules - I just live by them - they don't make sense to me either.

I can't even get a job to supplement my income - I am allowed to make about $200 a month and if I work more than 9 months - again they take everything away! even if all I do is that little $200 a month for 9 months with no benefits. I can't win. I am stuck in poverty for the rest of my life. Which is horrid to me because it means I live in slums and I hate it. I like country living. I ABHOR cities.

If you can work for 9 months, maybe you could work and go off SSi, then you could make more money.