Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 28, 2013, 02:37:47 AM
First of all, you're making the assumption the hating or disliking an entire group based on just a few examples is a choice...love, like hate, is not so easy as to be a choice much of the time. It is a combination of what one feels in their heart, affected by the culture they are a part of, and to a more or less fraction of reason.

I suggest that this emotion is not voluntary, but innate to the person's life and life experiences. Yet, you diminish the value of that life and culture when you claim thee is no justification.

Secondly, a mistake that is often made (especially about racists), is that they hate others "because of the color of the skin". This is not only a false assumption, it is made from being unaware of one's own ignorance (not saying you are ignorant, LtL) I have never heard a racist say he hates blacks "because they have black skin." The more intelligent ones do make an effort at using reason and evidence to support their beliefs...and just because your personal values will not allow you to accept their evidence, doesn't make them wrong--or you right. Remember, personal values (love, hate, reason vs. emotion, etc) are, for the most part, involuntary and difficult to change--or challenge unless one steps well outside the culture which created those values.

But, since it is difficult to do that, in the interest of keeping the lines of communication open, one should not use absolutes, and should also allow others to have their opinions without resorting to name calling or other forms of abuse, no matter what one may think of their views and culture.

I would say there is a difference between justification and explanation.  One can explain why the hitler youth existed without claiming it is justified.  One can explain misandry without saying it is justified.  It's not discounting personal experience and culture. For example, a woman who has been attacked by multiple men and taught to hate them may have a reason to support her dislike of men.  However, she isn't justified for labelling all men based on the actions of the few or even the majority.  That isn't even if she was taught to believe that. We may have an explanation, but that doesn't mean it is right or justified.

As for racists,  what evidence?  I'm not claiming it's because of one's skin color.  They could have grievances and even have been the victim of crime from members of a particular racial group.  That could explain their dislike and hatred, but it doesn't justify it. 

Remember, explanation is descriptive while justification claims a belief is rationally warranted.  I think this is a important distinction.  So, I would agree that there may be an explantion to bigotry, but you can't convince me that it is ever justified when judging factors beyond someone's control.

Just my opinion, not fighting with you.

 Unfortunately trying to teach tolerance is like teaching a fish to ride a bicycle.

Can I reiterate what other Mods have said. We can't read everything.

Ok we try, I realised the other day that I have my IPad running next to my computer at work so I stay logged on to the site all day, but I do also have to do a job. When I come home guess where I am! I'm not unusual in this, other Mods are the same, we are on this place for crazy hours.

If you don't like a post report it. We would rather have reports that we can look at and discuss to see if they are appropriate or not, than have people suffer because they are being triggered by posts.

Just so you know the process: You report a post and a message box comes up asking you what is wrong, you write a short message. It goes to a Moderator Report, that is flagged by all Mods, we read it and add a comment for other Mods and Admin to discuss. If it is spam whatever we kill straight away and ban the spammer. If it is a concern about a member we investigate. Unless it is a crisis we will leave the report open so we can discuss the best way of dealing with it. We then write a report in the 'Moderator Abilities' area. Here only GM and Admin can access and talk about the situation. The reports are reviewed by FA and Susan. If we GM's have messed up we are hung drawn and quartered, put in a pillory and flogged  .

If we have done a great job, we get ignored .

But that is the process, we try to give a measured even handed response without jumping on people unless we can avoid it.

But for this to work well we need you.

We need you to tell us if a post is triggering etc.

And with exception of myself, the Mods are only human and make mistakes.

I, of course, am a Goddess, so my mistakes are Divine.

Cindy

Quote from: Lo on August 27, 2013, 01:32:42 PM
Now the disclaimer is that I haven't been here long AT ALL, and I have a tendency to be hypervigilant and see patterns where there may or may not be any. I also understand that MtFs have it much worse as a group than AFAB TGs and TSs, so I personally have to check myself when I feel my hackles getting raised by someone venting about masculinity and things of that sort.

But in my short time here I have seen a number of posters talk negatively about men and masculinity in all sorts of topics, insinuating that masculinity is inherently this or that, and that femininity and womanhood is inherently better. I don't go into the binary MtF/FtM subforums, so these sentiments are being aired out in the open. And that's not to mention the recent thread that was closed where it was revealed that a poster or two endorsed/was apathetic toward the abuse of men. I don't know how often that happens, but I'm glad that it was nipped in the bud sooner rather than later.

As a nonbinary, I have other issues with the environment here, but they are nothing major, and there's only so much I can realistically expect from a place that tries to provide for binary and nonbinary trans* people. It's also neither here nor there. :V

I am also non-binary, so I try especially hard to make sure that our needs and positions are understood.  I am still learning about myself, and finds my many flaws.  Though it is sad, a number of us stay within the safe confines of the Androgyne Talk board.  (Where it is very chummy, if I do say so myself!  )

But the transgender umbrella covers a lot of ground, and I have found the people here to be extremely friendly, when you give them a chance.

Quote from: Erin S on August 27, 2013, 01:41:25 PM
Love you Jamie!

Your avatar suggests you have moved away to some location near the equator!

Quote from: Natkat on August 27, 2013, 01:43:40 PM
It's a very difficult challengde to keep the diffrence transgender categories all together, all with diffrent view and opinions, yet neither supressing the freedom of speach neither stepping on someone.
-
alot of transgenders do have issues with other kinds of transgenders. we can look at some exemples about, stealth/open, or binary/non-binary. I think we all make mistakes but we just have to try our best to work together, and even doing our best I dont belive its posible to be 100% free of troubles of hard discussions.
-
We have actually had those discussions in my local comunety before because this is a very big problem where I live. I think some of the best advice would be,

1, you can say your opinion if its constructive positive or negative. so if your critical about something you gonna explain why, and you may also come up with a suggestion how to make things better .
"You are stupid" <-- is bad "I dont think its a good way they way you do this, maybe try" <-- is good
-
2, always speak for yourself.
"you need homones" "transgenders feel like___" is speaking of someone ells.
"in my opinion" "I think" "I belive" you only talk for yourself.

3, and remember the basic its suport, we need each other so lets get the best out of it.

these are some of the rules we try to live by.

You make good points, Natkat.  Much of the time, people just want to be heard.  So many of us live in isolation.

Susan has established some rules here, so that the discourse stays civil.  There are only a couple of subjects that are "off limits" - mostly because they have caused so many problems in the past.  And one of Susan's most fundamental rules is that everybody here is equal, or in her own words,  no one "is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others."

My own feeling is I want to hear what people from other parts of the world, or other parts of the gender spectrum have to say.  I want to know more about what our European members see things, or how the laws affect our members outside of my own state, and even how I can get a hold of a good meat pie floater in southern California (damn near impossible). I have learned so much from the members here that it sometimes boggles my mind.  And I never want to stop learning.  If you are not growing, you're dying.

So, don't feel disaffected.  We can always work something out.  I want want you to be heard.

Quote from: Arch on August 27, 2013, 01:52:45 PM
My syllabus is bright green, and they still forget to use it...

Well, there's the problem.  It needs to be orange.  Or maybe goldenrod.  Visual impact.

Quote from: Cindy on August 28, 2013, 02:51:47 AM

Just so you know the process: You report a post and a message box comes up asking you what is wrong, you write a short message. It goes to a Moderator Report, that is flagged by all Mods, we read it and add a comment for other Mods and Admin to discuss. If it is spam whatever we kill straight away and ban the spammer. If it is a concern about a member we investigate. Unless it is a crisis we will leave the report open so we can discuss the best way of dealing with it. We then write a report in the 'Moderator Abilities' area. Here only GM and Admin can access and talk about the situation. The reports are reviewed by FA and Susan. If we GM's have messed up we are hung drawn and quartered, put in a pillory and flogged  .

Cindy

Cindy is not kidding.  She is the site Sergeant-at-arms and is in charge of punishment.  These are her tools:

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 27, 2013, 02:56:32 PM
Imho, much of the "I hate men/masculinity" stems from a long history of severe abuse by men. Yes, it's unresolved anger,

Just a suggestion.

Ehm? Most MTF are former, very masculine, completely passable straight men..so I just can't see  how they were severely abused by men. They were mostly just considered as 'one of the boys' by others.
How on earth could they have functioned as passable 'straight' guys in the army and other hypermasculine male occupations?

Perhaps they severely abused very fem gay guys- future straight MTF...and yes, that happened to me when I was young and confused.

Severely abused by 'straight' men...and a few of them turned out to be lesbian MTF...decades later....and god only knows like what ->-bleeped-<-s they behaved toward ciswomen/their cis wifes/girlfriends....out of confusion and/or jealousy.

I'm very aware of (very masculine) 'straight' guys who can turn out to be closet tv's/cd's/bi's/tg's or even pre ts to this very day.

And they are the ones who can behave very unpleasantly when it comes to gay men, fem mtf and ciswomen too.

But...when they come out of the closet as MTF, tv, cd or whatever...they happen to be the ones 'disliking' cismen by means of shouting down the fact they were cismen themselves and knowing what ->-bleeped-<-s they can be...out of insecurity about their own ID.

Some former very masculine men/MTF even develop a form of 'feminism fetishism'...quite hilarious tbh, considering their behaviour in their 'former lives'.

Quote from: Jamie D on August 28, 2013, 03:41:21 AM
I am also non-binary, so I try especially hard to make sure that our needs and positions are understood.  I am still learning about myself, and finds my many flaws.  Though it is sad, a number of us stay within the safe confines of the Androgyne Talk board.  (Where it is very chummy, if I do say so myself!  )

it's definitely much safer there. we always get help very fast if someone starts attacking too much rather than trying to understand. on the other boards it so much easier to get drowned by other posts and threads. and i'm often in a minority consisting of just one person against so many...

i do like to talk with the binaries, though. asking dumb or educated questions are equally ok to me, but when someone starts talking about generalizations as if they are or should be truth, i... well, run away. it might have been simple ignorance or a bad wording, but it's so easy to offend or be offended when we don't even seem to speak the same language at times. we use terms and choose or words assuming the others will understand, because that's what we're used to at our respective boards. but as soon as we venture outside, it becomes so much more important to define what we actually mean with this or that term, specify everything, or everything becomes chaos.

not that i don't like chaos. i just don't like aggressive chaos. make it friendly and playful, and i'll be stuck in it forever.

I Am a misandry offender, and her is a news flash it pisses ME off too. I have several times stated this, and I wil state it again it bothers ME too.

And yes I HAVE read the TOS ladies, so I don't need to be reminded, and yes ladies I HAVE seen that moderating is not to be discussed and I won't be discussing it.

But I want EVERYONE to know something, if you never tell ME you were offended, guess what, I never find out. Never. Because all the comments that come as a result of moderators moderating come from anonymous faceless sources.

I WILL do the right thing if my big mouth has offended and I WILL edit any post that has gotten out of hand because I have no enemies here, there are no people on my ignore list I do not dislike anyone here. I'm not going to get all warm and fuzzy and call you family, because frankly calling you friends is in my view a higher and greater level of award. Family you are stuck with, friends is a label that must be earned.

Let me repeat, I do NOT like my misandry, not a single bloody bit. I dislike the reasons for it, and likely always will, but I also hate how it affects me. I hate that it offends people here.

And if no one ever tells me in person, I never really get told.
I don't tend to listen to faceless people. There's already too much of that in our world thanks to the internet.
I am only worried about offending my friends.
I don't know anyone named anonymous.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 28, 2013, 07:07:18 AM
I Am a misandry offender, and her is a news flash it pisses ME off too. I have several times stated this, and I wil state it again it bothers ME too.

And yes I HAVE read the TOS ladies, so I don't need to be reminded, and yes ladies I HAVE seen that moderating is not to be discussed and I won't be discussing it.

But I want EVERYONE to know something, if you never tell ME you were offended, guess what, I never find out. Never. Because all the comments that come as a result of moderators moderating come from anonymous faceless sources.

I WILL do the right thing if my big mouth has offended and I WILL edit any post that has gotten out of hand because I have no enemies here, there are no people on my ignore list I do not dislike anyone here. I'm not going to get all warm and fuzzy and call you family, because frankly calling you friends is in my view a higher and greater level of award. Family you are stuck with, friends is a label that must be earned.

Let me repeat, I do NOT like my misandry, not a single bloody bit. I dislike the reasons for it, and likely always will, but I also hate how it affects me. I hate that it offends people here.

And if no one ever tells me in person, I never really get told.
I don't tend to listen to faceless people. There's already too much of that in our world thanks to the internet.
I am only worried about offending my friends.
I don't know anyone named anonymous.

Honey, the anonymous moderator reports are from every single one of us. If you have a problem with being told by an anonymous Moderator just imagine it is me, or Jamie, or Devlyn or VM or Sarah Louise or Mrs O'Brien or Seph or FA or Arch or Si.

Mmm anonymous is shorter to write but that is what it means.

moderator report are moderator report, and of course come from a moderator. not may to choose between there...

but lesley does have a point. if we were better at respectfully pointing out someone's mistake in a conversation rather than biting back or running away, maybe we'd be able to communicate a little better. i will keep it in mind, and hope i'll remember next time i see something i find offensive. give the person a chance to correct themselves before reporting it. it's easy to get worked up and write something horribly wrong if there are old traumas or other hidden things behind the emotional reaction.

i would like to know whom i offended and how so i could apologize, if i said something wrong. it's a little difficult to do that if nobody tells me whom i hurt. i do appreciate a reporter's anonymity, so i think that it would be nice if the offended tells the offender directly how they've been hurt, just to give the offender a chance to make up for it. not saying everyone has to do this, i know it's not exactly an easy thing to do, and especially not in a way that won't add fuel to the fire...

Posts can be reported by any one, Taka.. I've been known to report posts in threads I've never posted in.. But was reading the threas and found the post was inappropriate in some way..

Quote from: Taka on August 28, 2013, 09:06:12 AM
moderator report are moderator report, and of course come from a moderator. not may to choose between there...

but lesley does have a point. if we were better at respectfully pointing out someone's mistake in a conversation rather than biting back or running away, maybe we'd be able to communicate a little better. i will keep it in mind, and hope i'll remember next time i see something i find offensive. give the person a chance to correct themselves before reporting it. it's easy to get worked up and write something horribly wrong if there are old traumas or other hidden things behind the emotional reaction.

i would like to know whom i offended and how so i could apologize, if i said something wrong. it's a little difficult to do that if nobody tells me whom i hurt. i do appreciate a reporter's anonymity, so i think that it would be nice if the offended tells the offender directly how they've been hurt, just to give the offender a chance to make up for it. not saying everyone has to do this, i know it's not exactly an easy thing to do, and especially not in a way that won't add fuel to the fire...

Sadly it tends to go to flame war very quickly. We sort of know it from lots of post.

Why do Mods use an anonymous, this may be instructive, when i was a young Mod a did a polite post telling someone their post was rude and to withdraw it. The reply, I know who are are (name given) where you live (address given) and I will be at your next seminar and out you in public.

At that time it meant something. I was terrified.

That is another reason why we use anonymous.

Ye easy being me.

I am wondering about this anony mouse. Is he invisible?

You may have lost another one! But you've re-gained me following my 3 and a half to 4 year absence!

Quote from: Cindy on August 28, 2013, 09:56:09 AM
Sadly it tends to go to flame war very quickly. We sort of know it from lots of post.

Why do Mods use an anonymous, this may be instructive, when i was a young Mod a did a polite post telling someone their post was rude and to withdraw it. The reply, I know who are are (name given) where you live (address given) and I will be at your next seminar and out you in public.

At that time it meant something. I was terrified.

That is another reason why we use anonymous.

Ye easy being me.

oh yes, i realize all this. the anonymity is definitely important. i was thinking about if there was someone already in the conversation, it might worth a try. only one though, i wouldn't go farther than that. if i get flaming back, i'll see if i can report instead of just running away.

Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on August 28, 2013, 09:31:11 AM
Posts can be reported by any one, Taka.. I've been known to report posts in threads I've never posted in.. But was reading the threas and found the post was inappropriate in some way..

not saying you shouldn't do that. probably just wishing the world and human communication were easy enough that you didn't have to. and hoping i'll get to know whenever i make a mistake.

i thought i posted something in a thread here, but the post isn't there. either i didn't post or it was removed. do mods ever remove posts without telling the poster why? i'm only asking because i suspect it could have been removed for being slightly inappropriate, but don't know since i can't remember whether i posted it or not.

We make every effort to notify the member if we delete a post.  It is our policy to PM the user, but I'm not saying we don't forget once in a while.

Quote from: Jamie D link=topic=147691.msg1215097#how I can get a hold of a good meat pie floater in southern California (damn near impossible).

The heck is THAT? You've got me curious now... I'm officially on a mission to find you your good floaty meat pie thing here.

I would like to add my support & appreciation for all the hard work the mods put in on this site.
I used to be admin on several facebook groups & even with FB notifying you every time someone posts it was hard to stop arguments from getting out of hand, the mods don't have that tool to aid them so we must all remember to moderate our own replies to assist them, they work hard enough as it is.

I don't mean we should tiptoe on eggshells but before we post we should re-read our replies & if there is a chance it can be taken out of context then just take a minute or two to re-word it.
Also, keep in mind that something you say to someones face may be taken the wrong way online because they can't see our faces, alot of communication involves the face/voice & without these someone may not always realise when a comment is meant to be a friendly light hearted joke.

Once again, thank you to all of the staff here for making this one of the best forums i've ever used