I do not care whatever people call me. I just pursue  beauty, and think women's fashion items are more sexy, pretty or erotic than men's. I prefer an androgynous body and face to feminine one, whether it is mine or hers.

Having sex as a women is just my fantasy; whereas seeking feminine beauty is my daily duty.

Barbie~~

Militantly binary trans folk are invariably more fragile and dependent on the perception of others for their own validation as opposed to non-binary types who are much less concerned about how other's perceive them and more interested in simply being who they are to themselves, often enjoying anything from a flamboyant presentation one day to a blah one the next. It's got nothing to do with being lazy and everything to do with being rather well grounded and content in their own skin. The idea of having to meet anyone else's expectations and fit into someone else's mental box is irritating, but then one has to always consider the source and be patient with binary perceptions keeping in mind that they are emotionally much more susceptible to a disdainful look or off color remark from others than are non-binarys who usually just blow it off.

That may be true in general, but I'm definitely binary and only want to be me. I don't worry a whole lot about having perfect physique or most manly face.
I don't have fancy suits, though I do prefer dressier clothes. Work is t shirt and jeans. (T shirt uniform)

Going back to the original post (and ignoring the wording lol), it reminds me of discussions I've heard about genderless/agender people and how, in theory, we don't seem to differ from cis people at all. In that many of us don't care enough about our gender to want to change anything. (Which is only true for a few of us, in reality.)

I think one of the more striking differences between genderless and cis people is actually in that lots of us don't care what pronouns we get, whereas... a cis person would probably be up in arms if someone misgendered them that way.

So agender people would probably tend to fall into your category of "mild" trans people.

I would consider myself "mild", even with the desire for surgery someday, because being acknowledged by society at large is a battle I don't have the energy to fight, and I would rather just sit back and be seen as one or the other for the rest of my days. My husband knows exactly how I feel and that's all that matters right now. No such thing as passing, let alone being stealth, as a nonbinary! I also have no interest in taking hormones (beyond the pill, which has side effects that I like), or making any surgical changes to my secondary sex characteristics, seeing a gender therapist, or what have you. I don't often feel dysphoria either, and when I do it's often mild.

Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on August 28, 2013, 06:31:32 AM
OK, so based on this, it would be acceptable for me to refer to many of my lesbian friends as men? They wear mens/andro clothes, have short and often untidy hair, they don't shave much of anything and certainly don't use makeup. Some are also lacking the 'accepted' curves..

Of course it's not OK.. Nor does it happen that I've ever seen or heard. And quite frankly, the stereotype you seem to want to project is kinda insulting..

I'm a woman.. I frequently wear jeans and a tshirt.. I rarely wear makeup - only for a rare occasion.. I do from time to time shave my legs and pits, but not so much in winter.. Oh, and how do I know I'm a woman? The way other people interact with me is one sign. The complete lack of straight exGF's is a somewhat amusing sign. But it's mostly because that's what my heart and soul tells me I am - as it always has.

Oh, and just for giggles, I have days where IDGAF and I've been out and about with stubble.. Still get called ma'am - even when I'm wearing an old pair of guys jeans and a fairly andro tshirt..

Hi Kelly,
Seems to me that you are actually agreeing with Glitterfly since by your own account you are feminine enough to be perceived by others as a woman without making any particular effort. Good for you!

I would guess that my wife would also be perceived as a woman no matter what she did in terms of make-up, clothes etc.. because she is sufficiently feminine in lot's of other ways to be always perceieved as a woman.

Interestingly, last Saturday night I had dinner in a restaurant at a table right next to a lesbien couple and we ended out having quite a chat together. What really started the chat was hearing one of the two complain that she had recently been called "Monsieur" (Sir) by someone and she had been very offended by it. However given the way she presented, male goth dress, half her head shaved, piercing and a very narrow androgynous body, it was in reality an easy mistake to make.

I have the impression that this is all Glitterfly is saying.To use your own words,  "The way other people interact with me is one sign" , if others are constantly perceiving you as being of the opposite gender to the gender you wished to be perceived as and if this is a problem for you, it is probably up to you to do something about it. At the end of the day,  "Real communication is the response you get...."
Hugs
Donna

Quote from: Shantel on August 28, 2013, 09:52:03 AM
Militantly binary trans folk are invariably more fragile and dependent on the perception of others for their own validation as opposed to non-binary types who are much less concerned about how other's perceive them and more interested in simply being who they are to themselves, often enjoying anything from a flamboyant presentation one day to a blah one the next. It's got nothing to do with being lazy and everything to do with being rather well grounded and content in their own skin. The idea of having to meet anyone else's expectations and fit into someone else's mental box is irritating, but then one has to always consider the source and be patient with binary perceptions keeping in mind that they are emotionally much more susceptible to a disdainful look or off color remark from others than are non-binarys who usually just blow it off.

I'm binary trans person.. Not miliatant about it at all, it's just part of who I am.. The section I've bolded is just as true for me as it is for any non-binary..

Saying that we binary people are more likely to get upset by a look or remark is doing yourself a great disservice, I'll let you work out why.

Quote from: Glitterfly on August 28, 2013, 06:33:39 PM
Do the lesbian friends look like men to strangers or not? It's a yes-or-no question. Is it okay for you -their friend- to call them men though you know they wish to be seen as women? No, that's insulting. If however they look like men -and not just guyish women- to the general populace then what basis do they have to expect everyone to see them as women? There are gender roles in a society for a reason, they make it easier to distinguish the gender. That's their whole purpose. They're just social agreements, but they exist~ the more you go breaking those conventions the more the chances of you being mispercieved. It's nice if you can live in your LGBT bubble and remain oblivious to the effect but that doesn't mean the effect isn't there~ the cause and effect is very clear

I love that you assume that because I have friends who are lesbians and that I'm a lesbian that I live in some kind of LGBT bubble.. I don't.. My best friend is a hetero woman, I'm good friends with many hetero males.. I live primarily in the 'straight' world. I guess the point I was making is that they don't follow the 'social conventions' for how a woman should appear, but no one accuses them of being men.. And funnily enough, in my younger days, I'd often turn up to things dressed well, in a shirt and tie or suit - just with a full makeup job and my longish hair styled nicely, no one ever accused me of being anything other than a little weird. (That may have been because they knew giving me any trouble would mean a visit from a very angry Samoan guy with a reputation for violence.)

Quote from: Glitterfly on August 28, 2013, 07:13:07 PM
Thanks I agree and I think you're right, this has just been a misunderstanding! I'm sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly enough~

Kelly, two things: Your last paragraph kind of disproved itself. people afraid of violence aren't going to act honestly so that's not really a sign of anything.

And... you seem to take this all very personally, the bubble comment was directed at any hypothetical person who might be in that kind of a situation (we all know some people do that whether cis or lgbt, create a bubble and shut out the rest of the world) It's good if you don't do that

Well, it was a direct response to something I'd posted, is it any wonder I thought it was directed at me?

It took 6 months or so before any one did say anything.. And that's when they found out about my Samoan friend.. I was managing an underage nightclub at the time, so I was neck-deep in teens that had would have a go at anything that was different, just not me for some reason.. It also probably helped that I was a friendly, approachable person that most people liked..

Quote from: MagicKitty on August 23, 2013, 01:34:52 AM
I see myself as that, if I could choose to be born a female, I would. But being born a guy never bothered me much. Yet I still want to transition, and am transitioning, because it's how I feel I should be, how I feel I should look.

I fit the "mild trans" definition.

I'm a guy physically, but mentally a girl.  But I'm not so dysphoric that every day is a complete nightmare.  I can handle being male, but I'd strongly prefer to be female.

The thing I struggle with (and which you seem to struggle with) is whether it's worth the effort.

Transition is harrowing.  It's expensive, time-consuming, painful, and stressful.  We'll lose friends and family who we care deeply for.  So for someone like me, who is on the edge, it's really a balancing act.  It's not black and white; I'm not someone experiencing longstanding dysphoria since I was five years old and who knew I was trans for as long as I can remember.  It's a more subtle feeling, where what we lose by transitioning may not - in the long run - be offset by what we gain.

If I could choose my gender from birth, it would be female - 100% female.  But now, with a reasonable life that is male - family, friends, job, kids, etc., all of which I don't mind on a daily basis - I do struggle with the idea of whether I'm trans enough to actually transition, or whether it would be better to keep it all in and suck it up.

Well, if indeed in the end transitioning isn't the solution for Michele because she doesn't have enough symptoms to want to bother with transitioning, then perhaps she fits what I'm theoricizing here (first posts).

スレに関係ないけど、少しだけ日本語できます。話し合いたければＰＭでお願い。 

(I really like the picture smilies, myself.)

Glitter, no, don't go.  Ask questions if something confuses you.  I'm genderqueer, not a vampire.  I don't bite, not unless we're very close and you want me to.   

I'm gonna pick another point or two and build on them.


> What difference does gender make to a person who doesn't care?

So, I agree with Glitterfly.  If you're the last person alive, gender doesn't really mean anything.  It's a way by which people understand each other.  But, that isn't the world we live in, so that doesn't tell us much.

I don't like being gendered, not because it disagrees with who I am (I cannot be gendered without being misgendered) but because it's only one angle and keeps people from seeing all of me.

Once you gender someone (people in general, and me too) "out of place" or ambiguous features become less noticeable.  How do you make Steve Perry of Journey sound like a woman?  Pair his voice with picture of Aretha Franklin.  (I posted this over in the voice training stuff.  It's eerie.)

So, things I actually like about myself (I'm subtle and demure, say) become bad (I'm wishy-washy and wussy) because of that gender thing IDGAF about. 

Or, I'm not allowed to be pretty unless I'm looking for sex with men.

(Okay, bad example.  I'd rather be cute or elegant than pretty.  And to be fair, social norms for women seeking women are similarly stupid, so it's not just a gender thing.)

Basically, prejudice makes gender my problem.  It's not that I'm in the wrong body or brain.  It's that I'm mad that I've been forced to choose.

Ooh, that leads me to another point.


> So what does it matter how you're accepted?  If you just accept yourself isn't that enough?

Imagine you've always wanted to be Romeo in a play.  You can learn all the lines, nail the characterization, everything's perfect, you pretty much are Romeo.  Except that you're not playing Romeo until... a director picks you, or you're satisfied with your performance opening night, or people come to see you, or at least something like that.

But for non-binary people, our dream role might be one we've never heard of ourselves.  Never mind our audience or fellow actors or the director.  And when we end up on stage cast in an awkward role, maybe it doesn't hurt so much because we don't know what we're missing, or because we even like our assigned part and we've found ways to make it our own.

That doesn't mean we like being typecast all the time.  Or that we have any less desire to write the part we could best play.

That was an interesting article you linked to. Although I think I'm bi, I was amused at the eventuality of maybe one day have a man hit on me and, internally laughing, watch his reaction as I say "I have a girlfriend". Sounds like a priceless sight. Though I can see how it could get old after a while.