Hello guys and dolls.

What constitutes passability?
What does a person mean when they say "I pass." or "He/she's passable."?
Is there a generally accepted definition as to what 'passable' entails?

What counts as 'passable'?

Is a TS passable if he/she doesn't generate strange looks on people's faces?

Is a TS passable if he/she can walk down the street without someone yelling "That's a man!" or "What a dyke!" (no offense intended to any lesbians here)?

Is an FtM passable if he gets 'sirred' occasionally?

Or is he only considered passable if the 'sirs' outnumber the 'ma'ams'?

Or is he only considered passable if the 'ma'ams' are very rare?

Is a TS considered passable if they are neither 'sirred' or 'ma'amed' (not called by either title)?

Can a TS still be considered passable if upon exiting the restroom of their target gender, he/she is gawked at by half a dozen people with horrified looks on their faces?

Is someone considered passable if they pass 50% of the time?

What percentage counts as passable?


So, what criteria does one have to meet before they can truthfully say "I pass."?

When is a person considered 'non-passable'?

Or is that term only reserved for those who never pass in any shape or form whatsoever?



When a person says they pass, what do they really mean?
I'm counting on you all to enlighten me.
Thanks.

Nero

Nero....

Without trying to fuel another debate.

It is called Stealth.

When you fully integrate into society, live, work, play and love in your adopted gender, without any person, employer being aware of your previous history (unless of course you wish to tell them).

In this case everyone who you interact with on a daily basis, preceives you as nothing less than the gender you are transitioning to / or have transitioned to.

Passing is a whole package, physical appearance, voice, mannerisms, traits, non-verbal communication, confidence (which is always underated in my opinion), which applies to both MTF and FTM.

So IMHO... passability is basically living, undetected (from a TS point of view) as a man or a woman in society.

Even though I have lived stealth now for 3 years, I still get called SIR on the phone from time to time, does this mean I do not pass??

Buffy

Being able to move about freely in society without anyone suspecting that you are anything other than what you project. Never being questioned, doubted, or looked at funny. Like Buffy said, stealth.

Quote from: Lori on July 09, 2007, 07:13:51 AM
Being able to move about freely in society without anyone suspecting that you are anything other than what you project. Never being questioned, doubted, or looked at funny. Like Buffy said, stealth.

Lori, I thought that was everyone's objective...

Quote from: Susan's WikiWhere the person is being perceived by the public as anything other than their birth sex this is described as passing.

Thus a man cross-dressed as a woman would be deemed to pass if nobody realised that the person they were seeing was not in fact female.

If someone correctly determines that somebody is transgendered then they are said to have been read. However, many members of the public will be very discreet if they think they've read someone - this may be out of politeness, sympathy, respect, shyness or because they are uncertain and are too embarrassed to mention it in case it's not.

I have to agree with the above from our Wiki.  But that's not to say that passing equates to beauty cause it doesn't, period.

Steph

Quote from: Susan's WikiWhere the person is being perceived by the public as anything other than their birth sex this is described as passing.

Thus a man cross-dressed as a woman would be deemed to pass if nobody realised that the person they were seeing was not in fact female.

If someone correctly determines that somebody is transgendered then they are said to have been read. However, many members of the public will be very discreet if they think they've read someone - this may be out of politeness, sympathy, respect, shyness or because they are uncertain and are too embarrassed to mention it in case it's not.

I agree as well.  The last example doesn't help anyone in the long run. But I think there are tel tale signs if someone is reading a TS and pretends they don't..

Back in the sixties, men belonging to a culture called hippies and flower children had long hair. They were mistaken for women all the time and they didn't wear any cosmetics. Now there could be an almost flawlessly female looking MTF be outed for only one reason, insensetivity and bigotry.
Could be the real problem is this segment of our society that continually tries to make others feel bad about themselves in order to further their own ideals. One thing I've noticed about these people is that they enjoy the sadness of others. I wonder if we not only sluffed off their comments but rubbed their noses in our happyness if they would stop being such jerks.

"Passing" is a chimera.  You can never really know if you pass without asking people, at which point you have outed yourself and so no longer are passing.  It is far easier to know when you are not passing.  You can make some assumptions based on how people react to your presence, but that is not certainty.

Quote from: Berliegh on July 09, 2007, 09:33:41 AM

Quote from: Lori on July 09, 2007, 07:13:51 AM
Being able to move about freely in society without anyone suspecting that you are anything other than what you project. Never being questioned, doubted, or looked at funny. Like Buffy said, stealth.

Lori, I thought that was everyone's objective...

Not everyone's objective is stealth.  Some people are pretty open about their trans status intentionally (writers, activist, etc).  Do not make the foolish assumption that stealth is every transsexuals primary objective.  They choose not to pass on a certain level to educate and advocate. 

Stealth is not for everybody. 

Stealth, not stealth, same difference to me.  All I want is to live my life.

I don't consider living my life on a day to day basis as being stealth.  To me, my background is no one's business other than my own.

Sarah L.


Hmm, in rereading that I am not sure it doesn't sound rude, I didn't mean it to be, if I am lucky my new meds will make it here today and I won't be so angry.

I pass and say so due to the number of people who come up to me and tell me that they had no idea I was T until I outed myself. I am very open within the leather community and also have done lectures for groups and schools on the topic of gender variant individuals. I also say I pass because of a few situations in which people who have known me and know that I am TS admit that they forget that little fact until I say something that brings it up. This has led to a couple of uncomfortable situations with one or two straight males in the past.

Do I still get read? Yes and sometimes I even manage to reverse the perception. I once met a gal who was TS and supermodel gorgeous. Great figure, great voice, etc, etc. Yet she talked about how she had been read here and there. Some people seem to have the knack for it (clocking T folks) while many others do not.

The real questions are, how much does it matter to you and why?

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 09, 2007, 11:48:35 AM
"Passing" is a chimera.  You can never really know if you pass without asking people, at which point you have outed yourself and so no longer are passing.  It is far easier to know when you are not passing.  You can make some assumptions based on how people react to your presence, but that is not certainty.

Lisbeth, I really like your thoughts here. Being passable to me is just the ability to be dressed as a woman and not to get any bad looks from people when I go out.

Gina 

Quote from: regina on July 09, 2007, 11:05:43 AM
Hey Nero, that's no fair that you didn't offer your own view. Pony up, boy!

When someone makes the statement "I pass." without any percentage added, I assume they mean they pass all the time, or most of the time. Getting the occasional read or the occasional wrong title (sir or ma'am) on the phone, still counts as 'passing all the time' in my book provided you can live everyday life with no one 'detecting your birth sex' (as Tink said ) 'Passing most of the time' to me would be passing a minimum of 70% of the time. Passing on a daily basis if you will. Anyone going around bragging that they pass without indicating how often, if it's any less than what I've just defined, is either deluding themselves or misleading people IMO.

Some TS will go on and on to me about how well they pass - and then I discover later that they consider being 'sirred'/'ma'amed' a few times and not yet being accosted in the men's/women's room passing.

Quote from: gina_taylor on July 09, 2007, 01:46:53 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 09, 2007, 11:48:35 AM
"Passing" is a chimera.  You can never really know if you pass without asking people, at which point you have outed yourself and so no longer are passing.  It is far easier to know when you are not passing.  You can make some assumptions based on how people react to your presence, but that is not certainty.

Lisbeth, I really like your thoughts here, but if we'e having to ask people if we're passable, then that's like tipping our hate to them and letting them know that something is wrong. Being passabel to me is just the ability to be dressed as a woman and not to get any bad looks from people when I go out.

My point has always been that as long as we are treated with respect it doesn't matter whether we pass or not.

QuoteMy point has always been that as long as we are treated with respect it doesn't matter whether we pass or not.

I agree Lisbeth. I wonder how invested in passing people would be if society truly accepted all transpersons and diverse expressions of gender.

zythyra

QuoteDon't hold your breath... it ain't gonna happen in either of our lifetimes. And accept them as what? If that means just being tolerated, no thanks.

Gina,

I'm not holding my breath, although when change finally happens, it often happens fast. Even since 1993 when I originally came out as transgender, I've seen an amazing amount of change and public awareness. I will do whatever I can in my life so that subsequent generations don't have to go through as much pain about being gender variant as I did. I agree, I want much more than just tolerance! But I'll take that as a necessary first step towards acceptance.

QuoteBtw, a lot of what comes under the category of 'things one does to pass' I do for myself, not for anyone else.

Absolutely, anything we do should be for ourselves, not for others. That's why I feel it's so important to truly confront ones own internalized shame and transphobias to make sure we're changing for the right reasons.

zythyra

Quote from: regina on July 09, 2007, 02:38:37 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 09, 2007, 02:19:59 PM
My point has always been that as long as we are treated with respect it doesn't matter whether we pass or not.

Which is fine if that's what you want. Lisbeth, that works for you, good. It will make things easier.

For me, it isn't. I wish to live socially as a woman as completely as possible and to the best of my ability have my outsides match my brain and spirit. In my experience it's very different when people know and when they don't know. Just because someone gives you a 'have a nice day' smile, or a friend says 'I like you because you're a good person (as opposed to a good woman)' doesn't mean you're getting either respect or a woman's life. In many ways, you're having your gender stripped away from you.

My thought is that you must live a very frustrating life expending all that energy without ever really knowing whether it makes a difference or not.  How do you know when you pass?  How do you know when you have done enough?  I'd rather live my life than spend it that way.

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 10, 2007, 09:14:02 AM
My thought is that you must live a very frustrating life expending all that energy without ever really knowing whether it makes a difference or not.  How do you know when you pass?  How do you know when you have done enough?  I'd rather live my life than spend it that way.

Yup, exactly. Obsessing on passing was making my life feel like an act, a permanent audition for a role I'd never know for sure if I got or not.

I DO pass absolutely, every time 100%... but as ME. As Kate. I know people will say, "But no! If you don't fool them into believing the lie that you're a genetic female, you're not being seen as you..." and I say the HECK I'm not! Do they treat me differently, knowing my male origins? I have no idea... but ya know, non-pretty women get treated differently too, as do tall ones, smart ones... etc. Had I been BORN female, I'd just be whining about how no one sees the "real me" for other reasons. Genetics don't gaurantee being seen as you feel you are inside.

~Kate~

Although I really don't care so much what people think, I do pass. I have many friends that know about me because they know me before, and I've always been very social and you'll find me out at the club several times a month.

One thing that I've started to notice is that even with people who know me they have a hard time seeing me as my past. I'm treated just like any other girl, and  even though they know in the back of there minds my past, it seems to slip away from them. It's been an interesting experience with that.

On Saturday I met a guy who's friends with a friend of mine. He's pretty cute and him and I hit it off. It wasn't until 4 am when I all of a sudden realized that this guy has no clue about my past.

I pulled my friend aside and asked her if he knew that I'm trans, and she was, "Um, I'm not sure -- I think he might, maybe not?"

The reason, of course, is that I almost went home with him and that would have been very awkward seeing as I haven't had corrective surgery yet and I wouldn't want a surprise happening. At the same time, I'm also involved in a complex relationship with my girlfriend, and we're trying to work things out. As well, I'm not sure if I'm ready for a relationship with anyone at this time anyway.

It's kind of strange, too, because people who know me and are now seeing me as a woman 110% have now started hitting on me (I'm talking about straight guys as well as lesbians). I'm also a flirt -- so, yeah, I tend to make out with a lot of people. And people who don't know, some how don't figure it out even when making out with me. I just stop there, because I'm not ready to go beyond that because I'm not comfortable with intimacy until I get my corrective surgery.

At work I have no issues. I have a couple of friends at work that have known me for a long time and know what I'm about, but the rest of the people at work don't and I have yet to see anyone suspect anything.

Not that I try to hide or pass -- I just be normal and be who I am, and it some how works.

I don't think that I'm 100% perfect. I don't always look or sound perfect. I have confidence, however, and that seems to fill in the gaps.

I really enjoy having people see and treat me like the woman I am. Even happier that people who know my past have now gotten to the point that they can't see me any other way but female.

Still, if the subject of being trans comes up (which it does from time to time), I talk about it. So, even though I don't wear a T-shirt that says, "I'm transexual, ask me how!" I'm still open about who I am and what I'm going through.

By saying I'm trans it doesn't mean that I'm demoting myself or saying that I'm not a woman. I'm a woman for sure. There many women who go through different experiences. My experience as a woman is that I was born with a genetic disorder that caused me to be born with the wrong parts. So my past history, as well as my current transition, is important to me as a woman's experience. Not everyone will agree with that, but hat is fine; while others will, which is fine, too.

Of course, I could go on and on about that -- but this post is already getting long enough.

Going back to my point, is that people know and are curios about it. I am open about my experience and my past as long as it's with people who are willing to listen. I get a lot of questions from my friends who find the whole thing interesting. I've told friends of friends who, after I talked to them, said,  "Wow, I didn't know that."

And still, even with being open about my transexuality, I'm still a woman in my friends' books as well as new people I meet.

So, I don't know what to conclude with, but being 100% stealth is a choice, and so is being open about being trans. As for myself, for 95% of my time, one could consider me Stealth, for the other 5% I'm educating people about my experience as a woman who happens to be transexual. And even then, that 5%, I'm still seen as 100% woman.

And, as a woman, I see my past and transition as an important part of my womanhood. That's not the same for everyone, however. I have friends who have completely dumped and erased there past -- including moving to a new city and leaving most of there friends if not all. While I have another friend who actually shows his old self (he's a MtF). I guess he's the one that inspired me to be the way I am (thnx Ace). I remember meeting him and staying at his house, and being so inspired at how amazing and at peace he was with himself and his past. If anyone were to look or talk to him, no one would see him other than 100% man, but he still sees all of his past experience an important part of manhood. Just like woman have different experiences into womanhood, so did he.


Anyway, sorry for the long ramble.

No need to be sorry gothique11 some times we need to ramble, myself included.  One thing I note about your post that I can relate to is being treated as a 100% woman by those who know of your past.

This is "acceptance" especially if this is coming from other women and it's affirmation that you belong.  It's a good feeling, and an affirming one.

Steph