QuoteAs it stands, I've come across no evidence, no documented proof that HRT affects anything more than the physical body.

What exactly else is there? HRT, in my case "T" cauesd a marked rise in aggressive behavior.
You don't have to ask me, ask people that know me. I was not even aware of it, until it was gone.

But let's play devil's advocate for a moment. Say you are correct. And let's also say, that they find out conclusively that the holy grail of transsexualism, is also disproved. That being the assumption that m2f's have the hard-wiring of a natal female, and the opposite is true of men.  Then what? We still would have people that feel they are the opposite, but no one can even objectively define exactly what that is.

So, I go back to where I usually find myself. Not caring. Not caring about whether she is like that because of this, or he is like this, because of that. Who cares? In the grand scheme of things, they are not gonna be happy until "it" gets fixed, so why does it matter?

OK. It matters because you asked. So, I would say, that based on my own experience, studies of behavioral grouping are only valid depending on the study group. Big enough group, and you will probably see a thinning out of any trait on the average, and the smaller and more concentrated the group, the more likely you will be able to prove your "thesis."

So, if you are correct, and there are non-physical traits that are feminine in nature, are they innate or learned? Are they socialized, or genetic. Talk about opening up a can of worms? We could debate that one until the cows come home, because that battle is still raging.

Once my teacher asked us to describe what femininity is, i tried to came up with an answer that could be applied to any woman in the world regardless of the social/cultural backgroud. So i told her that basically "it's all about the hormons". She took offence...

Sorry nero but i do think that the statement: "'masculine and feminine traits are a myth; a social construct" is 90% true. (i swear i'm no feminist!)

There's still that 10% left however. But if i think about the answers that are written here i must say i don't really agree.

QuoteI believe that having real empathy concerning hurting another person's feeling is feminine.

It is considered feminine, but why should be actually feminine? I know a lot of guys that are quite empathic, while my sister is practically unable to think about anyone that isn't herself. You might say that those men that are empathic are so thanks to their feminine side, but how do you know what's feminine and what's not if they are equally distributed between the population? Society doesn't enforce men to be empathic, so it's hard to tell if they are naturally like that, or if they adapt to that standard.

QuoteShopping. There's a feminine trait for you

I cannot deny that! But wat about societies where shopping doesn't even exist? Even in our society shopping is something very recent. It is hard to define femininity by something so new in human history.

QuoteChoice of words.  We speak a totally different language from males

Language is however undeniably a social construction. If a man grew up without ever talking to any other man, only listening to women's talk, would he still talk like man? I don't believe so.

QuoteSmiles.  We smile much more than males; there's this secret conspiracy going on when we smile and only other women can understand what we are saying with just a smile.

I never really thought about it, but i wouldn't bet a dollar on it if someone was going to make a survey about it and see if there are actually sex related differences on how much one person smile. Additionally, i wouldn't consider a girl masculine because she never smiles, nor i would considere effeminate a man that always smile. Think about the stereotypical playboy, he always smiles! Maybe we can talk about "the way" one smile.

QuoteAffection.  We tend to hug, kiss among one another much more than males do

true. this is something i once pointed out at school. I told everyone that males practically avoid any physical contact with other boys, if not for some sport or aggresive behaviours. But you can easily find out a reason behind this. If a man hugs another man just to show his affection, everyone around them would gross out and think they are gay. Considering how much derogatory the word "gay" is for the common people, there's no wonder men (even gay men!) try to avoid any kind of behaviour that could be seen as "gayish".
If there wasn't any social constriction, would men show their affection as much as women do? I don't know, but sure they would show it more than now.

QuoteCooperation.  We don't compete with other women (at least in the "real" world we don't), we cooperate and help one another.

I don't agree with this. Women can be extremely competitive, even more than men. I remember one of my female friends telling me that she hated her workplace because "they are all women, and everyone wants to be better than the others, if there were some males it wouldn't be like that". I couldn't really find the logic in that, i actually think that women can be extremely competitive against men to demonstrate they are better, despite what bigots say. The vast majority of men isn't so assertive as the common opinion tells, actually most of them don't really care, it's yet again society that forces them to be first at any cost.

QuoteThe will to open up and express emotion

True, but yet again i blame society. I'm totally sure about it. I've been the laughingstock of my schoolmates for years because i was too emotional, then i adapted, and now i show no emotion at all.

Quotehonestly, my biggest issue with guys isn't that they never want to show their emotions. men can be very deep, i just wish they would open up more. it's nice to hear what really goes on in their right head, not just sex & girls, sex & girls, sex & girls, sex & girls.

See above. about the talking, i actually found out with my surprise that girls are in fact the ones that talk about sex & boys, sex & boys, sex & boys. I've been hearing so many of those talks to get to the point i wanted to puke. I never really talked so much about that stuff with my male friends, but that's probably because i'm nerdy and they are all somewhat nerdy, and nerds don't talk about sex and girls. I have however met some boys with that mindset, but i refuse to think they are representative of the whole male population.

QuoteThe desire to "feel pretty".

I'd like to be pretty! Wait, i also wish i was a girl, so maybe i don't count.
I must be repetitive but i yet again blame society. They teach us that the "real man" is a macho man, with a strong body and a strong mind, and every man should strive to be like that, either way you are a sissy. In truth many girls like cute boys, and so if a boy wanted to have success with girls he shouldn't really be afraid to be cute. Even as a boy without being feminine at all, i like to be cute in a boysh way. Often when i'm alone with my girlfriend i "meow" her, and she really likes it. Thinking about it, men are usually more bent to show their "cute side" (while totally abandoning their macho side) when alone with their loved ones, which of course enforces the theory of social constriction.

QuoteI firmly believe that it is the brain that determines all of this gender stuff

Women brains and Men brains are indeed different. However i believe this is mainly due to the differences in their bodies. People think that brain is  just there to give us a conscience. in truth only a very small portion of our brain is under our direct control, the rest is there to administrate all the physical functions. 1/3 of our brain does nothing but process visual informations. Since women have a different body, and different biology (think about their cycle) i'm not surprised their brain is different. So the fact that brains are different doesn't really prove that our consciences are different. That however doesn't invalidate the theory. Differences between straight men's brains and gay men's brains (or transexual's brains) are still under testing (none found so far, to my knowledge).

Ahem...

Quote from: Nero on July 10, 2007, 03:43:46 PM
This is not intended to be a debate. If your answer is 'masculine and feminine traits are a myth; a social construct perpetrated by the patriarchy' or something similar, take your arguments to a feminist thread.
I'll be the first to say that many males and females are a mixture of both masculine and feminine traits.

How can anyone dispute that males and females were specifically designed for their respective roles in society?
What of the 'hunter/gatherer' thing?
The male mind is suited for aggression, adventure, protection, and a strong urge to procreate. (traits necessary for a hunter and protector)
The female mind is suited for nurture, empathy, seeing to physical needs of others, and serving as the 'cornerstone' for the family. (traits necessary to the needs of children and husbands)
This was necessary for survival.
Come on, people - we haven't evolved that much!
The traits described above are masculine and feminine traits respectively. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out! (unless she's a feminist )

Quote from: Katia on July 12, 2007, 01:03:27 AM
honestly, my biggest issue with guys isn't that they never want to show their emotions. men can be very deep, i just wish they would open up more. it's nice to hear what really goes on in their right head, not just sex & girls, sex & girls, sex & girls, sex & girls.

if you kick them in the sex they'll stop thinking about girls.       

QuoteWhat of the 'hunter/gatherer' thing?

I said it nero, imho it's all about the hormons, i can't see any other possible explanation, except differences in physiology, but yet again the hormons are responsible for those differences. I explained what in my opinion is truly a feminine and masculin side, and what it is not. Generally speaking anything that comes from society isn't truly feminine or masculin, but all that comes from primieval behaviour is (aggressiveness is a good example, but it's obviously tied with testosterone). As you said, we didn't evolve that much. We don't have shopping in our genes.

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Quote from: Steph on July 12, 2007, 08:48:57 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 12, 2007, 01:48:13 AM
>...

I do firmly believe that the male and female mind are programmed differently.

And I firmly believe that you are right.  I firmly believe that it is the brain that determines all of this gender stuff, the body is merely the vessel that carries it, it's just that it gets on the wrong bus.

Steph

Mine got on a bus missing a wheel.

Sure, there are men and women who don't have the traditional masculine or feminine traits, but -

If the majority of men weren't aggressive, adventurous, and combative - who would hunt? Who would defend the tribe from invaders?

If the majority of women weren't nurturing, caring, and giving - how would the offspring survive? Who would hold the family together?

If not for the unique mental traits of men and women, humankind would be extinct by now.





Posted on: July 12, 2007, 07:33:27 PM

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Quote from: Shiranai Hito on July 12, 2007, 07:18:14 PM

QuoteWhat of the 'hunter/gatherer' thing?

I said it nero, imho it's all about the hormons, i can't see any other possible explanation, except differences in physiology, but yet again the hormons are responsible for those differences. I explained what in my opinion is truly a feminine and masculin side, and what it is not. Generally speaking anything that comes from society isn't truly feminine or masculin, but all that comes from primieval behaviour is (aggressiveness is a good example, but it's obviously tied with testosterone). As you said, we didn't evolve that much. We don't have shopping in our genes.

Sure, I'm not disputing 'roid rage' or whatever, but I really don't buy the 'it's all hormonal' argument. If that were true, then women with hormonal disorders causing way too much testosterone in their systems would behave like men, and they don't. What about females lacking the maternal, nurturing instinct? If that's only estrogen driven?

QuoteSure, I'm not disputing 'roid rage' or whatever, but I really don't buy the 'it's all hormonal' argument. If that were true, then women with hormonal disorders causing way too much testosterone in their systems would behave like men, and they don't. What about females lacking the maternal, nurturing instinct? If that's only estrogen driven?

OK. Say you are correct. Now "prove" that behavior is innate and instinctive and not socialized. Can't, can you?  Not objectively speaking.

It's all to interrelated to try to break it down into this = that.

QuoteIf the majority of men weren't aggressive, adventurous, and combative - who would hunt? Who would defend the tribe from invaders?

Ahhh. So now we are talking about the generalities of "the majority." So, based on your argument, if I say all men are freaking &^$%*#@% because "the majority" of them cause all of the world's violence, than that statement could be inferred as being accurate, using your reasoning.

And women don't belong in the workforce because "the majority" of them devote too much of their time and energy focused on raising children, instead of on making money.

Need I go on?

Now where is Nero, and what have you done with him?  LOL

Quote from: Nero on July 12, 2007, 03:58:26 PM
As it stands, I've come across no evidence, no documented proof that HRT affects anything more than the physical body.

Sorry, can't resist a comment here. Are you saying hrt doesn't effect the brain? What is the physical body when it excludes the brain? The brain is not part of the physical body? And the brain isn't effected by all sorts of chemicals and drugs? And (real) women don't have changes  during their periods when their hormones levels change? And menopause doesn't cause mental changes? Or testosterone doesn't change male thinking and behavior?

It's the mind-body relationship that makes you work, and hrt effects both because many functions of the body are mind-based or the interaction of the mind and body. Why else do m2f's and especially f2m's shows changes in personality and temperament on hrt? The lack of studies only shows it's not been studied, but read almost any biography of a transperson and they'll talk about the changes.

Quote from: Nero on July 12, 2007, 07:38:54 PM
Sure, there are men and women who don't have the traditional masculine or feminine traits, but -

If the majority of men weren't aggressive, adventurous, and combative - who would hunt? Who would defend the tribe from invaders?

If the majority of women weren't nurturing, caring, and giving - how would the offspring survive? Who would hold the family together?

If not for the unique mental traits of men and women, humankind would be extinct by now.

But the tradditional roles of men and woman that arose over 1000's of years of evolution have become blurred in these modern times and are now quite antiquated it seems. Hunter /Gathering is now a trip to the Supermarket to by provisons, many more women are now in the armed forces (due to equality). Many families now depend on two incomes, which means that women have to work after having children. Gender roles themeslves are becoming blurred in some areas, there are not many jobs now where women dont have a pressence.

The traditional traits are still there, but the way these manifest themselves are now seen in different ways and many women now exhibit non-physical male traits (and vice versa)

Buffy

Quote from: Thundra on July 12, 2007, 07:49:16 PM

QuoteSure, I'm not disputing 'roid rage' or whatever, but I really don't buy the 'it's all hormonal' argument. If that were true, then women with hormonal disorders causing way too much testosterone in their systems would behave like men, and they don't. What about females lacking the maternal, nurturing instinct? If that's only estrogen driven?

OK. Say you are correct. Now "prove" that behavior is innate and instinctive and not socialized. Can't, can you?  Not objectively speaking.

It's all to interrelated to try to break it down into this = that.

It can't be proven otherwise, either. I'm not saying hormones have 'no' effect, I'm saying I don't believe they are responsible for personality traits. I don't believe that if my mother was injected with testosterone, that she would suddenly be significantly different in personality.

Quote from: SusanK on July 12, 2007, 07:51:11 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 12, 2007, 03:58:26 PM
As it stands, I've come across no evidence, no documented proof that HRT affects anything more than the physical body.

Sorry, can't resist a comment here. Are you saying hrt doesn't effect the brain? What is the physical body when it excludes the brain? The brain is not part of the physical body? And the brain isn't effected by all sorts of chemicals and drugs? And (real) women don't have changes  during their periods when their hormones levels change? And menopause doesn't cause mental changes? Or testosterone doesn't change male thinking and behavior?

It's the mind-body relationship that makes you work, and hrt effects both because many functions of the body are mind-based or the interaction of the mind and body. Why else do m2f's and especially f2m's shows changes in personality and temperament on hrt? The lack of studies only shows it's not been studied, but read almost any biography of a transperson and they'll talk about the changes.

As I was saying above, the 'hormones are responsible for personality traits' idea doesn't account for the many cisgendered people who develop hormonal disorders, or those prescribed testosterone or estrogen for medical conditions such as AIDS. The doctor prescribing testosterone to treat a cisgendered female patient warns her about effects such as an increased libido. He doesn't tell her she will now act like a man. (and you'd better believe it would've gotten out by now if that were the case - that women given testosterone develop the personality of a man. With all the women prescribed testosterone for medical conditions or lack of libido, such would be common knowledge and most women would refuse testosterone treatment.)

Posted on: July 12, 2007, 08:28:18 PM

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Quote from: SusanK on July 12, 2007, 07:51:11 PM
Why else do m2f's and especially f2m's shows changes in personality and temperament on hrt? The lack of studies only shows it's not been studied, but read almost any biography of a transperson and they'll talk about the changes.

I've read bios/journals of many transpeople, some say they changed drastically, others only cite emotional and libido changes. The only two things frequently reported by ftms are an increased libido and crying less frequently (this was about 50/50 when I polled ftms on a site; about half said they didn't cry as often, the other half reported no change in this area.) Which goes back to what I said above - 'hormones do have an effect on emotions and libido'.
My poll on aggression revealed that scarcely a handful (less than 10%) out of the many who answered reported feeling increased aggression.

I've found the ftms who report all these 'drastic' personality changes to be unbelievable. First off, most who report they now have a different personality say they felt that way immediately following their first injection of T, secondly, when describing their 'new' personality, they cite all the typical male traits you'd expect, as if reading from a list.
Which goes back to what I've said here:

Quote from: Nero on July 12, 2007, 03:58:26 PM
I think the trans community puts way too much stock on hormones. That it makes them 'feel' like their target sex.
Other than an mtf suddenly tearing up at movies, and an ftm suddenly wanking off 20 times a day, I doubt it changes anything more than what's physical.

I hear TS going on and on how much they changed on HRT, they're a different person now, etc. Hormones may make one more confident in expressing themselves. Other than that, it's the placebo effect IMO.
You expect a medication to have a certain effect, you'll 'feel' that effect.
Case in point:
Some friends came to me one day wanting a certain drug. I was out. I gave them some aspirin shaped like the pills they were looking for. Shortly, they starting looking and acting high, in the same manner they always did when taking said drug. The next day they came back for more, saying that's the highest they've ever been and what I gave them must be stronger than the batch I had before. It was aspirin!
They *thought* they were high, therefore they felt and acted high.

If you expect testosterone to make you a man, make you 'feel' and act like a man, it follows that you'll start 'feeling' and acting how you think 'man' feels and acts like.
If you expect estrogen to make you a woman, make you 'feel' and act like a woman, it follows that you'll start 'feeling' and acting how you think 'woman' feels and acts like.
HRT may make one more confident in expressing their true personality (due to body changes, etc) in a way they weren't before.

As it stands, I've come across no evidence, no documented proof that HRT affects anything more than the physical body.

Posted on: July 12, 2007, 09:28:32 PM

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Just as an aside:
I'm not trying to piss anyone off, just have a lively debate here.

QuoteI've found the ftms who report all these 'drastic' personality changes to be unbelievable. First off, most who report they now have a different personality say they felt that way immediately following their first injection of T, secondly, when describing their 'new' personality, they cite all the typical male traits you'd expect, as if reading from a list.
Which goes back to what I've said here:

No doubt!  But then, who is to say that for some people that might not be true, while for others, it is true.

And on the testosterone thing. I too have known some women that had naturally high levels of "T," and some of them were butch, and some femme. As far as coloring what self-identity they had, who knows? But I can tell you this. "T" does make people more active and agressive.
So maybe the change in levels acts as a catalyst for previously dormant facets of their personality? It has always been my opinion that people's sexual preference doesn't change during HRT. It simply gives them permission to experience those feelings they previously stashed away.

On the aside, I know that you are pushing buttons on purpose. It's one way to get an honest reaction from people used to being guarded.

My belief is that hormones make a difference, but its the physical manifestion of these hormones that have truly made the biggest difference. Testosterone has made the male stronger/taller/quicker etc, well suited to hunt and also this had a reproduction role, the best hunter insured survival.

The reason women stayed at home is that they were pregnant most of the time, had small infants until their "man" died hunting or they died in childbirth (or very likely also they died from an infectious disease). People died in their early 30's; both women and men died young.

That was mankind for millions of years.

Roles were very practical and I survival was promordial, the notion of masculinity and femininity, whatever that was, didn't enter their minds at that time.

At that time, since women were at near the home base with a more varied role, they had as much, if not a bigger role than men for a long time, in how mankind evolved.

Its when mankind was no longer about just survival, life became less hard, that the roles starting to define, war became a big part of society's "raison d'etre" and to go at war you needed muscles, men (that's where the role of testosterone in defining masculinity starts).

A lot of the inkling of what we'd called femininity and masculinity started with the socialized seperation of gender roles from that point on.

Men the hunter became the protector which devolved into leadership roles owner of all strengths and mettle, leaving but history's crumbs and the position of official emotional basket case to women for a long time.

QuoteI'm not saying hormones have 'no' effect, I'm saying I don't believe they are responsible for personality traits.

Hey wait, i totally agree with this, hormones are not responsible for personality traits, but do you qualify femininity and masculinity as personal traits? Since it is supposed that masculinity it something that somewhat describes all males  and femininity something that describes all females, if they defined personality (even partially) then we'd have all males pretty similar between them and all females pretty similar between them.

Althought many persons believe this, i personally don't. I believe you could find a man with a personality more similar to a certain woman's personality than many other women's personalities and viceversa.

Many things that are considered "feminine" or "masculine" are in fact "personality traits", (like empathy, leadership, positivism, negativism), and that is why i believe they aren't actually feminine or masculine, for the very reason they are "personality traits".

When you talk about evolution, the ability of a species to survive, and to function properly, you are talking about something that even animals posses. It's called instinct. Even crocodiles have well defined gender roles, yet i don't think they have personality traits, not in the way humans do. I must admit however that there are personality traits that match better with those gender based innate behaviours. For example being passive matches with the female role, while being active matches with the male role (at least for humans).

Quote from: Thundra on July 12, 2007, 10:02:08 PM
But I can tell you this. "T" does make people more active and agressive.

That may be true for some. I wouldn't be so presumptious as to suggest T has the same effect on everyone, however, only a very few ftms I polled reported increased aggression.
When I first considered taking T, I gathered all the info I could, reading HRT documents, playing 20 questions with ftms on T, etc. Because I wanted to know what to expect. I still haven't come across anything that states testosterone changes the personality. In fact, most HRT documents for transsexuals suggest the contrary - that personality changes are most likely no more than the person finally feeling comfortable with themselves.

Say T does increase aggression - what of a woman who already exhibits very aggressive behavior? Will she become a killing machine on T?

Quote from: Thundra on July 12, 2007, 10:02:08 PM
On the aside, I know that you are pushing buttons on purpose. It's one way to get an honest reaction from people used to being guarded.

lol   No. I started this thread because an ftm called me a misogynist for saying there's a difference between men's and women's personalities. I just really believe men and women have innate personality traits regardless of hormones.

Posted on: July 12, 2007, 10:38:45 PM

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Quote from: Shiranai Hito on July 12, 2007, 10:24:38 PM

QuoteI'm not saying hormones have 'no' effect, I'm saying I don't believe they are responsible for personality traits.

Hey wait, i totally agree with this, hormones are not responsible for personality traits, but do you qualify femininity and masculinity as personal traits? Since it is supposed that masculinity it something that somewhat describes all males  and femininity something that describes all females, if they defined personality (even partially) then we'd have all males pretty similar between them and all females pretty similar between them.

Althought many persons believe this, i personally don't. I believe you could find a man with a personality more similar to a certain woman's personality than many other women's personalities and viceversa.

Many things that are considered "feminine" or "masculine" are in fact "personality traits", (like empathy, leadership, positivism, negativism), and that is why i believe they aren't actually feminine or masculine, for the very reason they are "personality traits".

When you talk about evolution, the ability of a species to survive, and to function properly, you are talking about something that even animals posses. It's called instinct. Even crocodiles have well defined gender roles, yet i don't think they have personality traits, not in the way humans do. I must admit however that there are personality traits that match better with those gender based innate behaviours. For example being passive matches with the female role, while being active matches with the male role (at least for humans).

They are traits anyone may have regardless of gender, however they never would've been labeled 'masculine' or 'feminine' in the first place if there weren't some truth to them. All I'm saying here is that there are traits typical of males or females.

QuoteSure, there are men and women who don't have the traditional masculine or feminine traits, but -

If the majority of men weren't aggressive, adventurous, and combative - who would hunt? Who would defend the tribe from invaders?

If the majority of women weren't nurturing, caring, and giving - how would the offspring survive? Who would hold the family together?

Many traditional societies recognized gender variant people and had specific roles for them. I've read about a ceremony in which a child is sitting with two objects placed in front of them, if zie is male bodied and chooses the item associated with female, they will be raised in the feminine role and marry a man, likewise if the child is female bodied and chooses the male item, zie will go out hunting with the guys and marry a woman.

zythyra

Well, that's interesting. Letting the child choose. Wish our society was like that.

QuoteWell, that's interesting. Letting the child choose. Wish our society was like that.

Yes, I wish we were given the choice in our society. I know exactly what I would've chosen 

I'm not 100% sure, I think the book that I read that mentioned this was The Zuni Man-Woman. At any rate, it's a great book.

zythyra

hmm, non-physical traits? The ability to multi-task  haha

A curious thing........I now mysteriously need several pairs of sandals, a myriad of flip-flops, flats, and short heels, all  in several colors, and I know with certainty I'm missing a crucial pair I'll need sometime when absolutely none of the others will do at all.  As I said, I not only have them, but NEED them!   

When I had testosterone, I had 1 pair1 of dress shoes, and 2 pairs of sneakers (one old pair for cutting grass in), and one pair of flip-flops. 

This being a woman thingie is costing me money!  But that's okay, I love to shop.