Odd question...  There are mile stones in our transition; admitting what we are, starting therapy, starting HRT, coming out, dressing, going out in public, voice training, plus a plethora of possible surgeries.  Not everyone takes all those steps, which is fine, the goal is to be happy being what we are and not necessarily conforming to societies binary definition.  However, for those of us who are on the road to becoming, as much as possible, a cis-type-woman, surgeries come up in the process.  So, which is a bigger commitment: full FFS or SRS?

My first thought was SRS.  However, I can still hide after SRS.  I could, in theory, detransition after SRS and no one would know until there was significant intimacy.  Once I go for FFS, I'm out to the world and given the extent of work that I need, I don't think surgeries that would allow me to present as male again are actually out there.  And there is no way I can hide the changes either.  After that, I'm out.   

FFS is coming in December.  Maybe I'm just nervous.  But this FFS step seems different to me than the rest. 

As far as how others perceive you, yeah, ffs is bigger. But then srs is more about how you perceive yourself and could be bigger for some.

My therapist was always of the mind that if letters were required for something, then it ought to be ffs as srs was more private and usually not seen by others while ffs could have a bigger impact on one's life in general due to the fact that it is a more outward change that is there for everyone to see.

For me, FFS is bigger--more public (both good and bad--good because more people will see my face than my woo-hoo, bad because more people will see my face than my woo-hoo), probably more painful, and more risk for damage (especially nerve damage) during the surgery.

So I'm getting FFS first.

Having a vagina tends to change how you experience your genitals.

having people experience you as female tends to change how you experience the world.

I think that there are these steps that are basically no return points (unless an impossible effort is put into reversal). RLE, comin gout, presenting female, even HRT are non such points - they are stepping stones on a path. I am not saying there is only one path - for some these reversible steps are enough, working out well, whatever makes one feel right is ok. But we are talking about those two steps that are bigger. Facial hair removal in theory could also count but thats merely an oddity in reversal (does hinter any attempt to retransition after FFS though). FFS and SRS are very different things but also very much similar. I think they both are what I called here rites of passage - irreversible steps that basically have three effects - one is the obvious physical one in respect of how one is seen by others (e.g. better passing with FFS, being able to go to a sauna naked or have intimate relationships after SRR). The next is internal - the way we perceive our own bodies to be, our body image - it helps us to not see our bodies as "male" ourselves anymore (which causes the dysphoria for many). After those surgeries, we look into the mirror or touch or bodies and if we cannot trace maleness there anymore, we are happy and getting less self conscious and feel at home. Some of these two effects can already reached by the non permanent methods like HRT. But the third effect is the one that really makes these surgeries so special and that is their irreversibility. It demands of the one who goes over that edge to have faith, commitment and dedication. Like a child coming of age ritual, this is in a way also a ritual that marks a definite decision to step over a line not to return back under any normal circumstances. This basically seals the deal. For others looking at you (#1) and for yourself looking at you (#2). I believe also that the "magic" happens in the weeks before when ones mind is grappling with this step, when we already know it will happen and we will be on the other side, but not really know what will expect us there but we know there is no way back. Again, I think this is similar to when in traditional cultures a child is coming of age and has to do a ritualistic deed, often demanding something special of the kid, to leave behind childhood and become an adult. The child does not know how it is to be an adult, only from observation. It does know that there is no way back. Thats scary. But by facing that fear, thinking about that step, internalizing what it means and fully recognizing its irreversibility one can reach a point of clarity and readiness to make that step. Its not a matter of the thinking mind then, which already did that decision out of reasons linked to #1 and #2 (external and internal self perception), but it is about being emotionally ready for that. And I think that readiness, that many people in our culture have unlearned to listen to, is what makes such a step successful. After that point, the ritual or surgery is just a matter of practical changes, the real change happens within.
I did not have FFS, but I know that before SRS I had that moment. I did my decision on the grounds of external and internal self perception but there was something nagging at me all the time. The question "are you sure, really sure that this is the way to go". This seriously impaired me as most of my mind did say "yes of course" to that. I came into touch with that emotional part and I cannot explain what happened but at that point, all doubt fell off, I felt like I was ready for it in all aspects of my being and was happy about it being irreversible. How that? It is because it is about the decision and about choice. Once you have done such a surgery, you have no more choice - you are "stuck". the benefit of that is that there is no need at that point anymore to think much about choices - it is as it is. But that benefit can only come if you made that decision in full emotional awareness. Because then that means you are making a decision with all your heart and mind and once the decision is made, all choices collapse to the one you made and your mind never needs to worry about them. In contrast if one denies to be fully lucid about this, one might end up passing through that rite of passage without the effect #3 - and I personally believe that from that point there is that chance of regret coming - from a decision postponed until later or from not allowing the emotional soul to adjust to that change and agree to it. Maybe out of fear that it would not, but this is why this is about faith as well, faith in yourself and in your soul to make that decision in the way you already made.

So really - be nervous - dont simply push that aside and hope that it will go away. It will of course, but i would suggest to use this preparation time before the surgery to allow your emotional soul to come to terms with that step, to let the feelings about it rush in and have faith in that all of your true self will agree that this is a big and right step.

Greetings.

Having had both. Having easily spent far more money for FFS than SRS,BA,LIPO combined I would say FFS has the most dramatic step for most any TS gal.

With that said there are so many things that happen after SRS that FFS cannot provide that I would say SRS is the one that is the most important thing.

Katie

Thank you for your replies.  We are thinking along the same lines.  FFS just seems to be a big step and will necessitate coming out to the world and that is going to be difficult.

My original plan was to work until the last moment, take early retirement, leave, have FFS then SRS and start working for another company that desperately wants me but can't pay what I'm making right now.  They are willing to take Jennifer and I would simply walk in as a woman, never to look back.  That's not going to happen now.

It's like I'm afraid of coming out but excited about surgery, about finally being me without the scars of testosterone.   To paraphrase something anjaq said "I have made a decision with all my heart and mind and once the decision was made, all choices collapsed to that one choice."  There is no fear about that. 

The "fear" of coming out is just a monstrous task.  It is a mountain to overcome, not a terror in the night.  However, I'm not full time.  I'm barely part time.  And that is a shadow of a fear over the process.    How can someone go from being a part time woman to a full time woman, irreversibly, without the RLE learning experience?  I find that intimidating. 

I don't know...

Just throwing another perspective out there, but from my vantage point SRS is the end goal, since it's something that's completely for me, and something that would once and for all correct what has been my biggest source of dysphoria since day 1. FFS, on the other hand, is completely for other people... so that I could be better accepted by a society that I loathe for not just accepting me in the first place.

I know that this is completely backwards for a lot of other people... to them, FFS is the thing that would finally "correct" their dysphoria triggers, whereas SRS is just something that everyone else tells them that they need to have in order to be fully female.

So really, I think it comes down to what is important to you. To me, FFS is the much bigger decision. Because that is spending thousands of dollars on something that, ultimately, I'm only doing for the sake of acceptance. And thus it feels like the bigger step because after that, it would probably be pretty much impossible for me to pass as male. So I have to be 100% sure that I'm ready to go full-time if I'm going to do that. SRS, on the other hand, I would want even if I wasn't transitioning in the first place. I've known that I wanted it since I was like 13. And nobody ever has to know about it except me. So really, to me at least, I don't think it's as big of a step, because I'm much more certain that I'll love it and it won't affect how others see me whatsoever.

Again, though, it varies. It depends on which surgery the person is more sure that they want.

Hi all,
I have done FFS, in two steps with a year long interval between the two, first upper face and then lower face. Earlier this week I did this post https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,148843.msg1231755.html#msg1231755 making the following observation:

"However that whole experience was my real moment of truth. The emotion I went through at finally taking this huge step was greater than anything I had imagined and had me completely submerged at times. The experience was very different from HRT which is far more gradual and largely reversible, at least it was for me,  even after months of treatment. "

I did it for two reasons, I hated my very masculine face and it was essential to making the only sort of transition that made sense to me, a transition where I can function as a pretty normal woman who doesn't attract any particular attention.

While I will never be a beauty, I am so much happier with what I see in the mirror now. Most of the time I see a woman looking back at me and that is quite priceless. It was  also a huge step in my acceptance of who I am. Actually seeing a woman looking back at me in the mirror has made me vastly more comfortable about assuming my female identity.

I will now move on to GRS very much at peace with myself about making this final step which is mostly motivated by my feeling that I would always feel like a bit of a fraud presenting as a woman, and being officially recognized by society as a woman, with my male parts still hanging around (excuse the pun!  ).

There are also some practical considerations regarding the things I can and can't do while this is unresolved. However, that's pretty well it and, since I am very happily married to a woman I deeply love, my future vagina is very unlikey to be used for anything other than decorative purposes...

Last thing worth mentioning, because of the how visible FFS is, I used a few weeks I had between finishing one job and starting another to do my upper face FFS back in 2011. I did the lower face in 2012 with the agreement of my previous employer but the fall out from that certainly contributed to my termination just 3 months later...

No regrets though, for me it was an absolutely essential part of my transition  both from a self acceptance stand-point  and a fantastic enabler regarding my social transition.
Hugs
Donna 

P.S.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 18, 2013, 09:45:56 AM
For me, FFS is bigger--more public (both good and bad--good because more people will see my face than my woo-hoo, bad because more people will see my face than my woo-hoo), probably more painful, and more risk for damage (especially nerve damage) during the surgery.

So I'm getting FFS first.

Beth, while I suffered a lot of discomfort and had serious difficulty eating for quite some time after the lower face surgery, I suffered almost no real pain from FFS using nothing stronger than paracetemol as a pain killer for a couple of days. Electrolysis for example is incomparably more painful as was my tonsillectomy (also done late in life.. )
Risk of nerve damage is effectively a bigger concern, especially with chin surgery and even if there is no permanent damage, full recovery can take a very long time, 1 - 2 years.

   IMVHO    SRS by an astronomical amount.     FFS is not bigger but probably more important because that's the first thing
people notice. most of the time unless you have big ones.     This may get moderation but I don't know. I am not a big fan of SRS.
SRS It is really a radical step it helps some people but others cannot adjust .

Yes that sounds like a really big decision then, the FFS in the case you cannot really think of doing a RLE before that. In that case I would say that for you it is actually the bigger step as you have less ways to actually imagine how it really will be like. Though that is true for SRS as well, but it seems to me that for you FFS is the first of the two surgewries, so for you it is the point of no return, the point at which that decision is made and if you really made it with all the heart and mind and your emotions and intuitions - then I am sure you will pass through that fine and afterwards there is only one life when before you always had in the back of the head the idea that you had a choice, even if it was not really possible to choose

Quote from: Donna E on September 19, 2013, 12:30:46 PM
While I will never be a beauty, I am so much happier with what I see in the mirror now. Most of the time I see a woman looking back at me and that is quite priceless. It was  also a huge step in my acceptance of who I am. Actually seeing a woman looking back at me in the mirror has made me vastly more comfortable about assuming my female identity.

Most of the time??? You still have some of the bad days (or minutes)? I did not have FFS and I see "mostly a woman", but the part that is the other side of "mostly" gets me every time to the point I even considered at times to do some FFS. Probably mostly for myself. But I am not sure it helps against that body image issue..
And:

QuoteRisk of nerve damage is effectively a bigger concern, especially with chin surgery and even if there is no permanent damage, full recovery can take a very long time, 1 - 2 years.

This is a major reason I personally would like to avoid FFS. My nerves are often in unexpected places it seems and dont heal well. So i do have some spots on my body that are already not well in terms of nerves - numb spots and all - from surgeries or injuries - dont want that in my face...

An earlier post asked the question how does one go full time. Well thats a darn good question. I think not long after starting hormones I had a clearer drive to be the person I knew I was.

I have met countless trans people and to be honest the only ones that I found reasonably successful were the ones that made a decision and then did whatever it took to achieve that decision.

The rest of the people that made half hearted attempts..... well you can guess the results......

Finally if you decide to go ahead with the process you need to know that a LOT of women have done it before you. We survived. We learned from our mistakes. Heck most of us over time blend into society and loose contact with anyone from the trans community. Occasionally some of us will come back on our own terms (this place is my terms) and share a bit of wisdom. Transition is a wild rollercoaster ride to a very normal life for most of us. Simple as that.

Katie

Quote from: Katie on September 19, 2013, 03:41:06 PM
I have met countless trans people and to be honest the only ones that I found reasonably successful were the ones that made a decision and then did whatever it took to achieve that decision.

Hi. Since this was one of the statements that scared me a lot during early transition, I want to comment on that shortly, talking about my experience. So at the beginning of transition, I met several TS people who were post op or just pre op who told me that to succeed in transition you have to make clear decisions and then go ahead and make plans and do whatever is needed to get there, otherwise you will much more likely fail. At that time I was a child in mind, the result of me shedding most of the "male" persona parts and letting out "me" which was not 23 at that time in spirit. I was certainly not feeling like I can mae decisions and then pull myself together well enough to stick to it completely and dedicate everything to it. So that statement added to my insecurity and fear actually. Now looking back, I understand in part what was meant. Things I wrote myself here in the forum about making a decision with the heart and mind and soul to have SRS for example. But this is something that will happen with time and it is preceded by a time where no decision was made yet but that is as important. I was not able to "make a decision and do everything to make it happen" at first. Instead I was following my heart slowly step by step. I did not make a decision to transition and then start HRT and get SRS. I felt like I wanted to transition and I felt that I wanted hormones, so I took them without knowing if

Quote from: JLT1 on September 19, 2013, 11:23:52 AM
The "fear" of coming out is just a monstrous task.  It is a mountain to overcome, not a terror in the night.  However, I'm not full time.  I'm barely part time.  And that is a shadow of a fear over the process.    How can someone go from being a part time woman to a full time woman, irreversibly, without the RLE learning experience?  I find that intimidating.

RLE, I think, is the most difficult step.  But to me it is essential.  That is when you learn and adjust and become.  We would all like to be transformed - just take a pill or lie on a table and get carved up.  But the process of freeing yourself from who you pretended to be and becoming who you really are happens during RLE.  I think that it is a bigger step than FFS or SRS, but it can also be a wonderfully exciting, energizing, fun thing.

Because beginning RLE is such a big step, it helps if you plan, if you have support - friends and counselor - and do it only when you are ready.  Scary?  Yes.  But it can be a delight, too.

Happy journey,
Kate

Yes, K8, that is quite true. Very fast changes are interesting milestones, breaks, have their own value in transitioning, also transitioning in the mind. But much of the change is slower and happens when preparing for or adjusting after such a step and RLE is another thing that promotes this slow learning and findng of oneself. I think it is a good thing to do that before meeting the knife. But I am a bit hypocritical there as I did not do a planned RLE before HRT either . I think what JLT is referring to is a rather interesting situation - not being in RLE, not living as a woman - and then have FFS and suddenly that time has come as after FFS you cannot really avoid being in RLE, I can imagine. So in that case one has basically made two steps at once. I can imagine that this may be scary. But if RLE before FFS is out of the question - well then that is the way it is. I imagine RLE without FFS for JLT would be only a bad approximation of RLE after FFS though, so I am not sure on the benefit of that - if it really makes the decision for FFS less scary. I mean if RLE works out pre-FFS, with some or many shortcomings that is, the irreversability of the FFS step is less scary at least, as afterwards it would just continue, RLE would go on, but now without some of the shortcomings.
I think both can work out. With FFS first and RLE as a result (as it was for me HRT first and then RLE as a result), a lot of the working on adapting has to come later and the step (FFS or in my case HRT) is less of a point that we can use to chuck in some of the worries we have, but it instead becomes the starting point. What I mean is that if you are doing RLE first, then getting HRT or FFS later may provide a chance to drop some of the misperceptions or bad self-value one has. If you dont think you pass in RLE always and look at yourself as partly male as a result, and then HRT or FSS comes along, you can convince yourself that this is over and drop the self-criticism. If you do them first and then RLE is not perfect (because of voice or whatever), you dont have that option anymore. I think this may be why I still see "the guy in the mirror" at times. It is because I was having my face as it is now as a result of HRT rather early in transition when I was still "read" a lot, so I came to think of my face as it is now and was then as flawed and partly masculine and have some issues with that. That may have been different if I had lets say after passing quite well in general done a FFS do transform the face away from the one I had when I was still getting "read" mor often. 

I keep reading how some women still see the man in the mirror when they look, long after he actually left.  The small imperfections that everyone has are somehow related to the old self and not just a characteristic of being human.  None of us are perfect.  I do think that FFS prior to full time will have an advantage in that area.  The last of that hated image will be gone on day one of RLE. I'm also hoping that it will help acceptance at work.  I don't look like a woman right now. I'm better now than my picture but my facial characteristics are really not feminine in any way.  However, as bad as my face is, my body is the opposite.  It's really good.  I have seen few better. So when I do go out dressed to my real gender, I get stares from everyone. I don't think they mean to; a beautiful body with my face just doesn't work at all.  I can, with care, and binding, and loose clothes, look mostly male.  Although after nine months of HRT, looking like a man is getting progressively harder and harder.  With FFS, I won't appear to be a guy in a dress.  I hope that helps acceptance. RLE would be a disaster without something being different.   
I'm not totally unprepared.  I started working on my voice 4 years ago and it is totally passable.  My mannerisms are good.  Work is supportive. Family is supportive. My wife is here but leaving in an amicable split.  My therapist is extraordinary.  Money is fine.  One concern is the lack of male friends.  None stayed with me; a perfect 100% rejection rate.  Having been married for the past ten years, I have no real female friends either.  It is going to get lonely.  However, I've historically been a loner so I can cope.  Yet, it's still sink or swim. 

Like most, FFS is a bigger step.  It is what the public sees.  SRS is more for our own perception.

sounds like your situation is really well, JLT. Thats great. I think you will do fine after FFS and I am sure that it will help greatly in going fulltime - well - not that you could do anything else afterwards anyways, I presume
I dont know where that "seeing the man in the mirror" thing comes from. I do have it, many others have it, I get the impression that its mostly those who had no FFS who have it. Maybe its because after FFS you just look very different in the mirror, nothing resembles the image you saw before too closely? While of course if others without FFS look in the mirror, they see basically the face that was with them the years before transition, just with some changed features - but the hard parts are all the same - nose, chin, jaw, forehead, hairline - those do not change but they define the face and so one is reminded by them of the face looking back from the mirror for years before - and this is associated with "male" as a result of being told that countless times... Maybe that is it. But I dont know how to solve it.

Quote from: JLT1 on September 20, 2013, 06:40:28 PM
I keep reading how some women still see the man in the mirror when they look, long after he actually left.  The small imperfections that everyone has are somehow related to the old self and not just a characteristic of being human.  None of us are perfect.  I do think that FFS prior to full time will have an advantage in that area.  The last of that hated image will be gone on day one of RLE. I'm also hoping that it will help acceptance at work.  I don't look like a woman right now. I'm better now than my picture but my facial characteristics are really not feminine in any way.  However, as bad as my face is, my body is the opposite.  It's really good.  I have seen few better. So when I do go out dressed to my real gender, I get stares from everyone. I don't think they mean to; a beautiful body with my face just doesn't work at all.  I can, with care, and binding, and loose clothes, look mostly male.  Although after nine months of HRT, looking like a man is getting progressively harder and harder.  With FFS, I won't appear to be a guy in a dress.  I hope that helps acceptance. RLE would be a disaster without something being different.   
I'm not totally unprepared.  I started working on my voice 4 years ago and it is totally passable.  My mannerisms are good.  Work is supportive. Family is supportive. My wife is here but leaving in an amicable split.  My therapist is extraordinary.  Money is fine.  One concern is the lack of male friends.  None stayed with me; a perfect 100% rejection rate.  Having been married for the past ten years, I have no real female friends either.  It is going to get lonely.  However, I've historically been a loner so I can cope.  Yet, it's still sink or swim.

Jenny, (just noticed your name on another thread..)
I can confirm that FFS prior to full time made, what for me would have been a path to disaster, much, much easier. I am already very tall, with the masculine face I had, I could never appeared as anything other than a man in a dress. I couldn't have handled that myself and I couldn't have inflicted that on the people who count for me, wife, children, friends etc..

Also, I came out to no one other than my wife prior to doing FFS so when I did start to come out, after upper face FFS, the physical changes were both very visible and left no doubt in anyone's mind where I was going with this. I am pretty certain that this contributed massively to what has been a pretty smooth transition compared to very many of us.

I am very sorry to hear that you have already "lost" so many people around you but imagine that when the real you emerges on the other side of this, you will be in a far better place to build high quality relationships with those you do meet. This has definitely been my own case, even with total strangers. Yesterday evening for example, I had to get a (routine) electrocardiogram done. I have only ever seen the cardiologist once before but he obviously knows I'm trans. While he went about his business, we started chatting and in no time at all I found out that his 30 year old son was gay, that his wife had had huge problem with this and was estranged from her son, that the son, an engineer by training but passionate about music had already changed his career trajectory and, after a two year course in communication and media studies was now working for an internet business providing affectionados all around the globe with access to live classical concerts. He even brought up the web site on his computer to show me how it worked...   I wasn't charged any extra for the demo..

This is just one illustration but I could provide plenty of others, including with colleagues who I came out to at work. On balance I would have to say that coming out has mostly brought me closer to other people, and this is probably as true with guys as with women. So, no need to panic, there is something about being true to yourself that many people find attractive (assuming of course that there is not some other big issue that gets in the way)


To both you and Anjaq, depending on who you do your surgery with, FFS can effectively change your face pretty well beyond recognition. In my own case, this was so true that a couple of my closest friends and even my eldest daughter walked straight past me without recognizing me the first time we met up again about 3 months after I completed phase two of my surgery. If you sign up on the Yahoo FFS support forum I have an album there which shows just how radical it was.

Wishing you all the best.
Donna

I can imagine that this really makes a smoother path indeed. Gosh if I think how some people I know looked like in the mandatory pre-HRT RLT phase. I am not sure I would have reacted and how much I would have been scared. FFS is IIRC not a procedure paid by healthcare here though, HRT and SRS are, BA can be in some cases and facial hair removal is only in theory (as they only pay for electro by a medical doctor and no one will do that for the money they pay). I could not have afforded FFS back then.
So just wanted to remark to Donna - I am not right now planning on doing any FFS, sorry if I gave that impression. I am concerned about some things that may not qualify really as FFS (namely some issues with the hairline which I think may have receded a bit) and also I have a bad self image I believe, I am not sure if this will lead me to try some FFS or if I can manage to resolve this mentally if the reasons really are within me alone, which is what people tell me. I will send in some photos to make an assessment about FFS anyways to see if there are some issues that exist despite my kind friends assertions that there are none...