First of all 3 things.

1 - sorry if this post is in the wrong place

2 - sorry if I ramble, there are a few layers to this, as this is a trans forum that's where the discussion should perhaps remain.

3 - this post mainly focuses on football (soccer) and recent news in the English Premier League but relates to sport generally.

It wasn't exactly big news but Chris Hughton the manager of Premier League side Norwich City (the team I support) was indirectly racially abused by a football 'fan' on facebook on a page that 'allows banter' between Norwich City and local rivals Ipswich Town. This page is unaffiliated with either Norwich City or Ipswich Town.

The comment has been reported to the police as a hate crime. It was also surprising because Chris Hughton is largely considered the 'nicest guy in football.' There are also very few black managers in the English professional leagues; Chris Hughton being the only one in the top league.

Anyway, this was discussed on a Norwich City fan forum that I frequent (but do not participate in) to get the latest news of my club, and to begin with the remarks were widely condemned, even by the rival team's fans.

Then a fan of another club (Hull City) joined in who made some racist remarks and these comments were rightly condemned as well. He then made a comment regarding the trans community.

QuoteTransgenders repulse me. I never want to meet one, I never want to even see one. I don't care much for what they have to go through.

QuoteTransgenders, on the other hand, are an abomination. Tell me why you think they're OK?

These comments on that board, as I write this, have mostly been ignored. There were a few brief comments about it but not much else before an argument started about the Daily Mail.

It disappoints me hugely that there was very little condemnation of his trans comments.

Action against all forms of prejudice and xenophobia in football has massively improved since 1970s/1980s (before I was born) and particularly in the last 2-3 years following the on-pitch racist comments of Luis Suarez to Patrice Evra, and John Terry to Antin Ferdinand where both Suarez and Terry were punished accordingly. From these large efforts have been put in place to wipe it all out; such as 'Kick it out' which tackles racism and Football v Homophobia.

Both are widely mentioned in sports media and at football grounds.

Last year I went to sport transphobia event at Wembley Stadium, however this was simply a branch of Football v Homophobia. It was badly advertised and I was told a written article would develop out of the nights' discussion. I am yet to find the article.

I feel that transphobia has taken a back seat in sport, in the attempt to eradicate it. However, I may be wrong.

Maybe homophobia needs to be eradicated first, to allow a stepping stone for eradicating transphobia. Particularly because we are yet to see an openly gay player playing professional football. The only one so far being the late Norwich City footballer Justin Fashanu.

Passing laws never changed attitudes.  Racists remain racists.  Homophobes remain homophobes.  Haters remain haters.  It takes winning hearts and minds in the first place to overcome institutionalized hatred.

In time, the haters will become marginalized.  Unfortunately, some of the worst transphobes are people who should be our allies.  That especially hurts.

Quote from: Red Leicester on October 05, 2013, 05:53:32 PM
Passing laws never changed attitudes. 

I disagree. Civil rights legislation in the U.S. in the early 1960's were absolutely necessary for the change in attitude over the decade that followed.

I looked at changing attitudes through studying law. There are two theories (I forget their names), one says law came first allowing attitudes to change (or morals), the other says people's attitudes (morals) changed creating a change in the law.

It can be a bit of both.

There's a UK law created about 40-50 years ago that allowed consensual same-sex sex. It is still heavily argued whether this was down to homosexuality becoming more 'acceptable' or the law influenced people. Or a bit of both. A sort of chicken and egg situation.

Anyway the forum I was referring to in my OP was eventually closed with the transgender issue left unaccounted for. But I guess you can't have everything.

Just sticking on my Devil's Advocate hat for a second... could their lack of condemnation be due to a lack of familiarity with the subject matter?

After all, most of the people on that board would have met people of other races than themselves and thus would be quick to jump on racist comments, but very few of them will have knowingly met a trans* person. We're more likely to stick up for the people we know, so could their apathy have been down to them not wanting to get involved in an argument they don't actually know enough about to have formed a strong opinion? This could certainly explain why the comments were largely ignored. As long as the OP wasn't egged on to continue being transphobic, this is a reasonably good thing. Especially if it descended into an argument about the Daily Fail.

Plus, of course, if the forum is dedicated exclusively to football, it's not exactly likely to be full of Nobel laureates.

Sorry but sport  especially football is for the Neanderthal knuckle draggers so homophobia, transphobia,racism and any other backward views are to be expected from these low lifes.I've found football fans generally too thick and  boring to have mates or girlfriends.The funny thing is that screaming your head off at men in shorts strikes me as  really gay!

That's what you get for supporting Norwich...
(I don't actually give a toss about football, but if I did it would be Ipswich seeing as until recently I'd lived my whole life in Suffolk)

Seriously though, it hurts to hear things like that, but all you've got to remember is the people saying those things, and the majority of the population haven't met a trans person before, or if they have then they don't know it, so their transphobia isn't a fault of themselves, but a fault of society.  And I don't think it's just a football/sport society, because I don't follow any sports, and I had that sort of view before I pieced things together, a lot of which was simply realising that trans people were normal people.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on October 07, 2013, 11:30:16 AM
Just sticking on my Devil's Advocate hat for a second... could their lack of condemnation be due to a lack of familiarity with the subject matter?

After all, most of the people on that board would have met people of other races than themselves and thus would be quick to jump on racist comments, but very few of them will have knowingly met a trans* person. We're more likely to stick up for the people we know, so could their apathy have been down to them not wanting to get involved in an argument they don't actually know enough about to have formed a strong opinion? This could certainly explain why the comments were largely ignored. As long as the OP wasn't egged on to continue being transphobic, this is a reasonably good thing. Especially if it descended into an argument about the Daily Fail.

Plus, of course, if the forum is dedicated exclusively to football, it's not exactly likely to be full of Nobel laureates.

Excellent point!

Quote from: AlexanderC on October 07, 2013, 03:23:24 PM
That's what you get for supporting Norwich...
(I don't actually give a toss about football, but if I did it would be Ipswich seeing as until recently I'd lived my whole life in Suffolk)

Seriously though, it hurts to hear things like that, but all you've got to remember is the people saying those things, and the majority of the population haven't met a trans person before, or if they have then they don't know it, so their transphobia isn't a fault of themselves, but a fault of society.  And I don't think it's just a football/sport society, because I don't follow any sports, and I had that sort of view before I pieced things together, a lot of which was simply realising that trans people were normal people.

Ok! Ipswich, I'm afraid we can't be friends anymore! ;p I joke!

Quote from: big kim on October 07, 2013, 12:20:44 PM
Sorry but sport  especially football is for the Neanderthal knuckle draggers so homophobia, transphobia,racism and any other backward views are to be expected from these low lifes.I've found football fans generally too thick and  boring to have mates or girlfriends.The funny thing is that screaming your head off at men in shorts strikes me as  really gay!

I think you're rather jumping to a conclusion here p, but you're entitled to your opinion. For the most part the fans are good people. The worst you get in terms of animosity on a regular basis is people disagreeing with each other on a team's/player's performance.

Football has gone a long way from the 70s and 80s.