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Anyone else not wanting therapy?

Started by VeronicaLynn, October 25, 2013, 12:04:07 PM

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Tanya W

Do I relate to comments about damaging therapists! I shared some of my gender struggles with two therapists a few years back and the results were disastrous. One started treating me like a freak, the other like a repressed gay male. Because I'm neither, the whole thing was terribly painful.

So why did I seek out and find a third person to work with? Basically, I realized I could not walk this terrain alone. I was so terribly stuck and so terribly depressed and could see no way forward. Having learned so much from my first experiences, I was much more discerning third time around and it's been very helpful.

Perhaps this is one good guideline around the 'to therapy' or 'not to therapy' question: If you are moving forward on your own (or with the help of friends, etc...), by all means keep walking. If, however, you are as stuck as I was, seek help. If your seeking takes a while, keep at it. 
'Though it is the nature of mind to create and delineate forms, and though forms are never perfectly consonant with reality, still there is a crucial difference between a form which closes off experience and a form which evokes and opens it.'
- Susan Griffin
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aleon515

I wonder how many people are going to someone who is actually damaging. I'd guess from what I read here that the no. is pretty high. I had a very great experience which I am very happy to have had. I didn't go to get T or anything. I needed to figure out what was going on with me. As it happened I got a primary care physician (actually a PA) and she prescribed the T. I didn't need a letter. I did need a letter for surgery.

--Jay
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Gina_Z

I don't know. This thread is scaring me. :o
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Kaylee

Quote from: Natkat on October 25, 2013, 01:41:14 PM
my friends worked for me as a therapist, =) so if your good good friends you can talk to about everything then its also cool.

Bingo!  My friends have always been the best and only support I'll ever need.

I'll need to see someone eventually to tick the required boxes for NHS funding of treatment, but I don't see how someone that doesn't know me could help with the few issues I have left since admitting to myself that I was trans. 
They only have what you tell them to try and build a picture of your personality and who you are.  People can quite easily be infallible narrators when it comes to themselves, whereas friends see you and how you are quite frequently get the widescreen version of you instead of the novelisation thats based on an earlier draft of the script...

(This is just me though, I'm quite lucky in the support network I have around me.  Others that aren't so lucky may have more benefits from therapy, and that fits them fine as well)
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Lauren5

Quote from: Kaylee on October 26, 2013, 03:30:05 AMBingo!  My friends have always been the best and only support I'll ever need.
You're lucky to have offline friends. There are 3 therapists I see, and will need to add 2 more. All that I currently see are aware I'm trans. The only person who I may consider a friend (Don't know yet, only got to know her for a few hours at a hockey game and then dinner afterwards) doesn't yet know, as a few hours isn't enough to trust someone.
Hey, you've reached Lauren's signature! If you have any questions, want to talk, or just need a shoulder to cry on, leave me a message, and I'll get back to you.
*beep*

Full time: 12/12/13
Started hormones: 26/3/14
FFS: No clue, winter/spring 2014/15 maybe?
SRS: winter/spring 2014/15?
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Kaylee

Quote from: Willow on October 26, 2013, 03:38:05 AM
You're lucky to have offline friends. There are 3 therapists I see, and will need to add 2 more. All that I currently see are aware I'm trans. The only person who I may consider a friend (Don't know yet, only got to know her for a few hours at a hockey game and then dinner afterwards) doesn't yet know, as a few hours isn't enough to trust someone.

Sorry to here that hun, at least you've got plenty of friends on here though... :)

To me my friends are my family, when first coming out it was loosing them that I was worried about, not my mother/brothers etc
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Lauren5

Quote from: Kaylee on October 26, 2013, 03:46:06 AMSorry to here that hun, at least you've got plenty of friends on here though... :)
To me my friends are my family, when first coming out it was loosing them that I was worried about, not my mother/brothers etc
Not being able to tell people has been the difficult part. Woemn tend not to want male friends, and I don't act masculine enough to have male friends.I try though, and I guess that's what counts, I'd just like to see results.
My family is all I have. I loose them, I loose everything. Therapy isn't an effective replacement for friends or family, but it's all I've got, barring the transgender meeting I go to every Thursday for an hour, where I can be myself for a change.
Hey, you've reached Lauren's signature! If you have any questions, want to talk, or just need a shoulder to cry on, leave me a message, and I'll get back to you.
*beep*

Full time: 12/12/13
Started hormones: 26/3/14
FFS: No clue, winter/spring 2014/15 maybe?
SRS: winter/spring 2014/15?
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Skittles

Quote from: Kaylee on October 26, 2013, 03:30:05 AM
Bingo!  My friends have always been the best and only support I'll ever need.

I'll need to see someone eventually to tick the required boxes for NHS funding of treatment, but I don't see how someone that doesn't know me could help with the few issues I have left since admitting to myself that I was trans. 
They only have what you tell them to try and build a picture of your personality and who you are.  People can quite easily be infallible narrators when it comes to themselves, whereas friends see you and how you are quite frequently get the widescreen version of you instead of the novelisation thats based on an earlier draft of the script...

(This is just me though, I'm quite lucky in the support network I have around me.  Others that aren't so lucky may have more benefits from therapy, and that fits them fine as well)

Wow Kaylee! You put that very well. I went to a therapist a while back, thinking I need to work more on my womanhood issues than my gender issues. I spent more sessions educating her on transgender and intersex, than I received back in results. I booked! I am searching for someone for a different set of issues including a surgery letter. I quite agree my girl friends are my best hope in understanding me. Hug. Joann
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Doctorwho?

Ok several points come to mind here, and none of this is official medical advice, just points based on my own individual experiences.

First VeronicaLynn you can't have SRS without HRT – seriously you just can't medically, or you will be in fairly terrible state within a decade. Your adult body can't function properly without enough steroidal hormones and once you have SRS your steroid factories are gone. So HRT is then pretty much a matter of life and death.

Second and more important point (which is also slightly more generally relevant) – you are assuming that all therapy and all therapists are the same which is like saying all fruit is the same and that because you had bad experiences with a banana an apple and a grape then you KNOW for sure that you also won't like strawberries.

Point is, taking the definition at its widest even a doctor is a therapist. Yes the therapy that they provide is mostly via the physical domain rather than the psychological, but if you look in the dictionary you will still find that treatment IS synonymous with therapy and thus all doctors are therapists. You don't want therapy now? – fine forget the whole darn thing and enjoy your life unaltered, because surgery is a radical form of therapy!

Ok you may think I'm just playing with words here, and in a way I am, but what I am trying to get you to see is the level to which you have pre-judged a whole class of things based on a few bad experiences – and that frankly defensive behaviour, however honest it is in motivation, will always tend to make clinicians worried, in case it comes with a hidden agenda.

In law all treatment is technically a form of assault. Which is why we have to get consent before we touch you. If I, as a medical student, or future doctor, treats you in any way without your informed consent we can be had up for a serious criminal offense – and it has happened. Doctors get struck off, put in prison even, because they failed to get meaningful informed consent before treating.

So what does this mean. Well unfortunately it doesn't just mean that you rock up and say "I want this, ergo I consent." We actually are required by the courts to demonstrate that the treatment was necessary, or at least had a rationale, that you understood what would happen, and that you were in your capacitous mind (that is to say you were not delusional or in an altered state of consciousness) at the time you consented.

If any of these tests fails and you later have regrets, suffer ill effect, or worse die as a partial consequence of the treatment we provide, then we can be, and indeed often are, criminally charged.

So the bottom line is this – no one goes into medicine wanting to say no to people. Every one of us does it because we WANT to help people live better, happier, healthier lives. But at the same time while we live in a society ruled by law and lawyers, we also have to take steps to protect ourselves, and that is where the screening requirements come in.

IT IS NOT repeat NOT supposed to be about stopping you doing something which you legitimately want to do, nor is it supposed to be about persuading you to do something else. It is about ensuring that when you give your INFORMED consent, that consent IS legally valid and properly informed.

To do this you don't have to go and sit in a psycho-analysts chair for weeks talking about the effect of way that you doggie barked at you when you were three.

What you do have to do is see, at least once, and probably two or three times, someone who is either psychiatrically trained, or a qualified analyst with experience of gender work. These people do NOT want to section you, analyse you, or indeed anything much. However without their sign off, any surgeon or doctor who lays a finger on you can be struck off, sued, and imprisoned for assault, and much as they would all love to help you, you can't ask them to take that much of a risk on solely the basis of the word of someone that they have never seen before (you).

I hope this helps. Believe me I do feel for you. I was mildly intersexed at birth, and was allowed to grow up androgynously. However I didn't have any corrective surgery until I was a young adult. I thought because I had a medical basis for the treatment that I would be allowed to go through on the nod. I wasn't – in fact my reluctance to see the therapist and get the paper signed cost me a few years delay. Ultimately I found a compromise that I could live with, but even then I had to go and see a psychiatrist and prove that I was sane, simply to protect the surgeon. The irony is, when I finally did it, I found the psychiatrist I saw to be very pleasant, and indeed we later became very good friends.

So my message is this – you don't have to spend years at this, and it doesn't have to be a battle, but you will have to compromise with the rules enough to protect your doctors. If you really can't do that, then sadly you may not be suitable for treatment, because part of being suitable is to be a reasonable adult person, and willing to work with your doctors rather than fighting them.
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Skittles

Is applause socially acceptable here? If it is I want to give Dr Who a standing ovation!

I would also like to add that in years of seeing therapists intermittently, I did receive good usable help.

When my then spouse discovered a TV program about ADD, we talked and it seemed I may have that problem. I was tested and I was in the bonus round. I have ADHD! I could not do the meds so I stopped, yet with therapy I learned to work with it.

Later, I had what felt all the world like heart attacks. Nope just anxiety attacks. Again I stopped the meds and therapy gave me my life back.

At one point seeing a counselor, she asked my why I always seemed like a third person narrator to my own life. Not too many sessions in, I finally found my true emotions. I cried a bucket of tears and I found a new me. It stemmed from the two distinct personalities I have. Not known then by her but by me, is the truth I have a male personality and a female personality, I always kept her hidden. Today I am the she that is me, he just fades into retirement I guess. Thank you HRT.

My latest in my mix is finding out I am intersexed. The hits just keep on coming! That is cool too. Good female coding makes my hormonal changes fabulous! I have to go through all the steps to be able to correct a wrong choice the doctors made at my birth. No balking here.

OK what's my point. Good things can come from therapy. It sound like you are replaying bad events in youth, like a taped loop in your head. Just a guess. As adults we have to erase the tapes so we can have a happier life. Maybe rethink this all and don't throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater. Luck on your journey. Hug. Joann
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genderhell

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 25, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
Psychology is so stupid anyway,

The most soul crushing thing is when the doctor tells you, "PEOPLE ARE BORN MALE OR FEMALE".

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Gina_Z

That's when you hit your doctor with everything you know about non-binary individuals. And that's when you find a new doctor.
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VeronicaLynn

Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 26, 2013, 04:57:41 AM
First VeronicaLynn you can't have SRS without HRT – seriously you just can't medically, or you will be in fairly terrible state within a decade. Your adult body can't function properly without enough steroidal hormones and once you have SRS your steroid factories are gone. So HRT is then pretty much a matter of life and death.

While I wasn't saying what I want to do is have SRS without HRT, rather I was not wanting to have HRT without SRS, I have to call BS on this one. How many thousands of eunuchs were there in ancient Rome and China? How many Hijra are there in India even today? Surely they didn't all die in less than ten years.
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LordKAT

Didn't say death, said a terrible state, it does cause bone loss and therefore make you prone to breaks, sometimes fatal, but still painful and your bones will not heal as fast. There is some relation to other hormones in your body as well.
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VeronicaLynn

Quote from: LordKAT on October 26, 2013, 02:31:37 PM
Didn't say death, said a terrible state, it does cause bone loss and therefore make you prone to breaks, sometimes fatal, but still painful and your bones will not heal as fast. There is some relation to other hormones in your body as well.
Life or death seems like death to me. I do appreciate what everyone is saying. In some ways, I might be non-binary, but have a binary way of thinking, which is why SRS seems so important to me. HRT without SRS is definitely not what's right for me, but it is what's right for quite a lot of people. I actually don't mind most of the effects of testosterone has on my body, I like my sex drive and increased strength. My only issues with it are hair related, and there's other ways of dealing with that. I don't at all like the roles being a male forces on me, and people telling me I can't do this or can't do that because I'm a guy, or that women are fearful of me because of the way other men treat them, or expect that I'm going to treat them badly.

I guess it's just going to take me a while to figure out if I am non-binary, and what that really means for me.
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Lo

I'm not interested in therapy for the time being for my depression (I've seen half a dozen folks in the past 15 years for months at a time, and none of them were able to help me in the way that I needed them to). I'm also not interested in gender therapy because I don't really need it. I'm non-binary and not planning on getting any surgery that a doctor would think is gender-related, so I don't need a sign off. I also don't need their approval... seems like it would be hard to find a doctor that would understand anyways. Husband and I are probably going to go ahead with a little online marriage counselling since we're LDR and he hasn't yet figured out how to sort through his feelings regarding my desire to transition, though he is 100% supportive, so this would just be to help aid communication between us.

But no, it's not necessary in my case so why even bother.

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 26, 2013, 02:13:48 PM
While I wasn't saying what I want to do is have SRS without HRT, rather I was not wanting to have HRT without SRS, I have to call BS on this one. How many thousands of eunuchs were there in ancient Rome and China? How many Hijra are there in India even today? Surely they didn't all die in less than ten years.

Do we know how long they lived compared to the general population and what their quality of life was as they aged?
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TaoRaven

Well DrWho....I feel that there's something that has been overlooked.

The fact that people go to cosmetic surgeons all the time, without psychological screening, sign a consent form, and have birth defects corrected.

I expect to be treated no differently, and I really see no logical, rational, realistic reason why I should be. If I were having a tail removed, or a vestigial appendage, it would be a simple matter of signing a consent form and providing insurance information.

It is ONLY because of the "moral and ethical" aspect of modifying one's gender that were are treated any differently, and I'm sorry but I find that unacceptable.

Thankfully, progress is being made on this front.
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Gina_Z

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KabitTarah

~ Tarah ~

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Doctorwho?

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 26, 2013, 02:13:48 PM
While I wasn't saying what I want to do is have SRS without HRT, rather I was not wanting to have HRT without SRS, I have to call BS on this one. How many thousands of eunuchs were there in ancient Rome and China? How many Hijra are there in India even today? Surely they didn't all die in less than ten years.
Sorry but its not BS at all - most Eunuchs were castrated before puberty. When you go through puberty it causes irreversible physiological changes which then need to be sustained. Thus the effects of the withdrawal of steroids after puberty has taken place will be more rapid in onset than they would have been if no puberty had happened at all. Thats why I said your adult body - and not just your body. In medical science all the words in the sentence do matter...

In any case I didn't actually say you would die within the 10 years but that within 10 years you would be in a very poor state. This is because in the absence of steroids at sufficient levels several types of dysgenesis take place. The most obvious being the formation of brittle bones, Osteoporosis, which can be mitigated somewhat with bisphosphonates as long as you do take them - however they are not the only potential issues, and while none of them will kill you outright, if you are one of the affected people they will seriously reduce your quality of life.

You have to remember that until recent times people only lived for an average of 40 years. Essentially what you would get without steroidal supplementation is a form of accelerated ageing. It might not kill you, but it would kill your lifestyle because, as I said you would likely become frail and several of your bodily systems could prematurely age. Osteoporosis alone can be fairly crippling. Ok its only a risk, not everyone ages the same way, but it is a high enough and serious enough risk not to be one worth taking.

In any case this is not me making all this up - next friday I'm taking a real live exam in my medical degree at the University of London on this very subject so I actually have the proper University of London recommended medical textbooks open in front of me as I write. For reference they are Kumar & Clarke - Clinical Medicine 8th ed, Brooke & Marshall - Essential Endocrinology 3rd ed and Johnson & Everitt - Essential Reproduction 5th Ed.

However you clearly believe that I'm talking a load of bull, so all I can say is good luck with your journey.
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