I used to enjoy being able to go out dressed female.  The first time I did it was about 5 months on hormones.  It felt great.  But as my boobs grow and my testosterone is finally dropping, I'm feeling more and more self-conscious and dysphoric.  Dare I say moreso than before I even started hormones more than a year ago.  The last time I was going to dress up, which was for my birthday dinner, I got all dressed and made up, only to break down and end up in a semi-conscious trance where I snapped out of it after I realized I had a razor in my hand almost pressed to my arm in the bathroom. 

I rarely dress in girl mode anymore, even in private.  For public, I say I'll do it, like to a movie or something, then I just end up not dressing up and ultimately not going.

I'm practicing my voice in my car almost every day.  I'm getting the hang of it and I think I'm starting to sound okay in my head.  But I can't talk to people in it.  I just can't.  Not even my boyfriend.  I just stand there quiet and frustrated (in boy mode) because I want to talk in my practiced voice, that I rehearsed MOMENTS before, but I just can't utter a noise.  I eventually just talk normally, but it hurts me deeply that I am that weak.

I don't get it.  I thought I was supposed to feel more confident as I started to change more.  I guess I was wrong.

Big hugs hun, there's not much that I can say since I am still pre HRT with only a couple of RLE under my belt. But have you seen a therapist lately? It seems like you still have things to work out that haven't been addressed yet and that's what is causing you a lot of grief.

Hey Hideyoshi.

Oh I don't know what to say... I get the frustration and confidence thing, I really do ( it just took me 2 hours to get out my front door to go grocery shopping ). I feel for you so much.

I'm also trying to understand the issue though. It is a confidence issue in your appearance? In general presentation including voice and deportment? Or is it more something along the lines of depression where you've lost motivation?

Also, what do you mean by "testosterone finally dropping"? Surely that should have happened a long time ago?

Quote from: SammyRose on November 02, 2013, 11:33:28 PM
Hey Hideyoshi.

Oh I don't know what to say... I get the frustration and confidence thing, I really do ( it just took me 2 hours to get out my front door to go grocery shopping ). I feel for you so much.

I'm also trying to understand the issue though. It is a confidence issue in your appearance? In general presentation including voice and deportment? Or is it more something along the lines of depression where you've lost motivation?

Also, what do you mean by "testosterone finally dropping"? Surely that should have happened a long time ago?

I was on E for 9 months before spiro, still had T in low male range

My mom thinks I'm depressed whenever she sees me.  I cry a lot.  I never do much of anything aside from work and computer. 

It's a combination deal with the confidence.  Appearance, voice, anxiety and fear are all factors

Ouch... 9 months of E + T. Yucky!

For 5 months, I was in the same boat. During that time I found that my mood also fluctuated with hormone levels. Not only that, but spiro stopped working for me entirely. When that happened, I was in a fairly dangerous situation like what you describe... It was not good. And my endo was concerned too. After that I was put on another AA... Androcur. It's been magical. On a minimum dose for me, it keeps T levels at a minimum.

So I'd agree with your mom. Even from your post, it sounds like depression, perhaps with a hormonal cause? I'd recommend speaking to your endo if you've not had levels check recently. Otherwise perhaps chat to your doctor? I was put on anti-depressants to help with the mood swings a few months ago too.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on November 02, 2013, 11:45:01 PM
My mom thinks I'm depressed whenever she sees me.  I cry a lot.  I never do much of anything aside from work and computer. 

Sweetie, it sounds like you are depressed and it has been building for some time. There's nothing wrong with a little bit of depression but this sounds like much more than that. Please make sure you can talk to someone who can help you with it as soon as possible. And you aren't weak, it's the depression which is dragging you down and eating away at your confidence. The depression might not even be related to your transition but it will still effect everything, transition included, and suck the joy out it. Having once been where you are now I can understand it perfectly and totally feel how painful and lonely it is. Please take care and get support OK? *BIG HUG*

Hi Hideyoshi, Maddie here. As someone who suffers from panic disorder, I can relate. I am so sorry you are going through this. You are not alone. I can tell you a few things from my experiences.

First off, when I was beginning my transition, and I was following other peoples' suggested timelines, to complete my facial hair removal, have a year on hormones, get my voice in great shape, etc,  before going full-time, the waiting almost killed me. Even being myself at home, and dressing androgynously in women's clothes at work, wasn't enough. I stopped dressing in femme clothes at home for several months because knowing I would have to go back to hiding the next day, would put me in a pit of despair. It hurt too much. It got harder and harder to get out the door every day. In my case, I ended up discussing it with my therapist, working it out with HR where I work, and going full time 9 months earlier than I had planned. For me, it was the best decision I ever made. Yes, I'm a girl who has some facial hair on a weekly schedule; I was rather flat chested when I went full time (A cup) since I had less than 8 weeks on HRT; I had to learn 'on the job' about the makeup and clothing that works best for me; and it took some trial and error to learn to look fantastic despite male-pattern baldness. But I had much more confidence once I went full time. And I did learn to dress and use makeup and control my voice. Some of my best photos ever are still from that time. The two hundred people I came out to at work were NOT shocked that I didn't look like a perfectly cis-gender female from day one, since they had perceived me as male for almost ten years. They WERE shocked for quite some time, until they got used to it, how good and natural I did look as a woman. They had no idea I could look, and sound, as good as I did. So it turned out, the only person who was applying perfectionist standards to my appearance and voice when I went full time was ME. If I had tried to wait another 9 months before going full time, I might not have made it. My dysphoria was crippling at that point and getting worse; only the knowledge that it would come one day was keeping me going.

Second, panic attacks (or debilitating anxiety) are a real syndrome, sometimes due to past trauma, as in my case; sometimes due to temperament and chemistry. Either way, you can work with a good therapist to heal it, though it takes time. My extreme PTSD and panic disorder took over a year of weekly therapy and homework to really make good progress, and I am approaching the 2 year mark in a few months. But now, after 20 years of being ruled by panic, I am not held back in any way by my fears. One thing that made a huge difference in my case: I went full time and found out that my fears in that regard were unfounded. In my case, the stress of not being myself made my anxiety disorder ten times worse. Removing all that emotional stress made it easier for me to work on my remaining issues. Of course, for some people, they will need to work on their anxiety first. If yours is based on chemistry, it will respond well to the many safe medications that exist for that. I was atypical and medication didn't work, but learning to care for myself, and treating my PTSD, did.

Third, For my voice, I found that I already had a female voice that I had been using all along, when I was talking to little kids, or making lovey-dovey talk to my significant other. So I made that voice my full time voice. Turned out for me that was all it took, though practicing resonance control did help to make me more female sounding on the phone as time went on. But nothing beats using your new voice for 8 to 12 hours a day. I realize now that my comfortable voice (since I stopped forcing it to sound like a male's) is higher than almost all women my height. And since I removed the super-resonance (I had trained myself to sound super-masculine) I have never had a problem getting misgendered unless I have a bad cold. But same thing happens to the (tall) women in my family.

Fourth, many of us learned to keep our emotions and needs tightly wrapped and learned to ignore them and stuff them down. Female hormones make it much more difficult to distance emotion and to stay emotionally numb. This is a good thing-- it is actually one of the best things about hormones-- but it does mean that the coping mechanisms we developed when we had a male chemistry will often stop working all together, and we will have to develop ways to process and live with our full gamut of emotions. My therapist helped me a great deal, but what also helped was remembering the years I had an older sister and two younger sisters, and being with them as their emotions went all over the place during puberty and the teen years. When we are on HRT, we go through our own female (or if FTM, male) puberty with all that entails. Adjusting to our new internal emotional map can be a big deal. Now that you have a woman's chemistry, you may never again be able to numb yourself from what you are feeling the way you used to. A good therapist can help you learn to embrace all of your emotions and all of your parts, and listen to the voice(s) inside your heart. If you have any trauma in your past, now will be an excellent time to work on healing, because your heart and mind won't let you ignore it any more. It can seem overwhelming, but it is ok to be overwhelmed. If you have been carrying pain and trauma your whole life, it could be time now to stop being numb and start getting better. The only way past it is through.

Good luck Hideyoshi, and please feel free to PM me of you want.
*hugs*
Maddie

Quote from: Hideyoshi on November 02, 2013, 10:38:57 PM
I'm practicing my voice in my car almost every day.  I'm getting the hang of it and I think I'm starting to sound okay in my head.  But I can't talk to people in it.  I just can't.  Not even my boyfriend.  I just stand there quiet and frustrated (in boy mode) because I want to talk in my practiced voice, that I rehearsed MOMENTS before, but I just can't utter a noise.  I eventually just talk normally, but it hurts me deeply that I am that weak.

I know exactly this frustration. Above all, it was what prompted me to have voice surgery as soon as possible. When you say "moments before", I know EXACTLY what you mean. I would practice in my car on the way home from work feeling great about my voice even after listening to recordings of it. Then, as soon as I opened my mouth to actually talk to the next person... an instant feeling of stage fright. The lack of confidence ALWAYS brought me instantly back to my regular bassy deep voice and my heart sank from the feeling of defeat. It hurt a little bit more with every passing week. Luckily I was still in the stage of my first moments realizing that I was starting to pass visually. But simultaneously, the growing dissonance between looking female and being able to access my feminine voice was immediately apparent and I knew something had to be done ASAP if I wanted to remain happy overall.

I don't make the recommendation much because I feel like I talk about the subject a lot, but seriously I think you are a great candidate for Yeson's vfs... especially so because you have practiced and are happy with your voice in private.

I haven't had SRS yet, but I think for me the VFS was a way more important surgery. It allowed me to get past the interactive confidence issues seemingly instantaneously. Compared to SRS, which is something more important to one's private and sexual sectors of self, good VFS tackles the social and interactive aspects kind of like a ski lift boost to a point on the mountain where the summit is in plain sight.

I just write this because based on what you seem to be experiencing, I think you are a great candidate for VFS. It would address a huge part of the anxiety you are feeling regardless of how you present yourself visually.

I hope you feel better Hideyoshi. You'll get there, one way or another- and we will all be here no matter what it takes

Hideyoshi,

It sounds as if you are suffering from clinical depression, please see your medic and therapist. HRT, surgery whatever will not tackle the underlying problems we have. They have to be treated.

In Steve Whittles survey the incident of self harm was the same for pre and post woman and the reason was that HRT etc will not address our underlying problems.

Get them resolved so you can live your life as the gorgeous woman you are.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on November 02, 2013, 10:38:57 PM
I used to enjoy being able to go out dressed female.  The first time I did it was about 5 months on hormones.  It felt great.  But as my boobs grow and my testosterone is finally dropping, I'm feeling more and more self-conscious and dysphoric.  Dare I say moreso than before I even started hormones more than a year ago.  The last time I was going to dress up, which was for my birthday dinner, I got all dressed and made up, only to break down and end up in a semi-conscious trance where I snapped out of it after I realized I had a razor in my hand almost pressed to my arm in the bathroom. 

I rarely dress in girl mode anymore, even in private.  For public, I say I'll do it, like to a movie or something, then I just end up not dressing up and ultimately not going.

I'm practicing my voice in my car almost every day.  I'm getting the hang of it and I think I'm starting to sound okay in my head.  But I can't talk to people in it.  I just can't.  Not even my boyfriend.  I just stand there quiet and frustrated (in boy mode) because I want to talk in my practiced voice, that I rehearsed MOMENTS before, but I just can't utter a noise.  I eventually just talk normally, but it hurts me deeply that I am that weak.

I don't get it.  I thought I was supposed to feel more confident as I started to change more.  I guess I was wrong.

I read all the other posts before responding, but I thought I should.  Maybe, just maybe, this isn't actually what you want?  When I read your post I hear that your depressed but there isn't a cognitive reason for it.  Sure, we all get depressed, but I'm wondering if your just unhappy with the role you play.

Not everyone is going to transition.  Maybe not everyone needs to.

I thought it was interesting that everyone else is giving you a completely different message than the one I want to give you.

But I just have a feeling that maybe this isn't what you want after-all.  And that's OK.  It's your life and these choices are huge.  Some of them are irreversible.

If only you could have some quality time somewhere to think what you want to do.

Life is too precious, too short to think of anything drastic or that you might regret at this time.

IMHO

Be nice to yourself and do what you want to do.  It's OK!   

Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 03, 2013, 02:19:29 AM
I read all the other posts before responding, but I thought I should.  Maybe, just maybe, this isn't actually what you want?  When I read your post I hear that your depressed but there isn't a cognitive reason for it.  Sure, we all get depressed, but I'm wondering if your just unhappy with the role you play.

Not everyone is going to transition.  Maybe not everyone needs to.

I thought it was interesting that everyone else is giving you a completely different message than the one I want to give you.

But I just have a feeling that maybe this isn't what you want after-all.  And that's OK.  It's your life and these choices are huge.  Some of them are irreversible.

If only you could have some quality time somewhere to think what you want to do.

Life is too precious, too short to think of anything drastic or that you might regret at this time.

IMHO

Be nice to yourself and do what you want to do.  It's OK!   

I have nothing to go on other than what Hideyoshi has said, but I think this is something worth considering.  Transitioning is tough and presents many hardships.  But, if you only find dysphoria and hardship from it, than perhaps some pause and reflection would be good?  On the same token, I do understand how debilitating depression and fear can be.  They can cause us to undermine ourselves and defeat ourselves.  What's important is that you find the source of this discomfort and discover why you feel that way.  Is it the difficulties and embarrassing transparency that transitioning forces us to go through?  Is it that transitioning isn't really what you want?  Is it that you are just going through depression?   There are many reasons for these feelings, but I'd consider all of them.  I know that it's something I have confronted and pondered about very deeply.  What I will say is that this path will never be a bed of roses for anyone, but if you think it's worth or needed, you will eventually find the solutions you seek.  Sometimes transitioning brings other underlying problems to the surface that we have to deal with.  Is that the case for you?  Or is transitioning the sole problem here? If so, consider why continuing this path would be good or bad for you.  Good luck and wish you well!

thank you for all of the responses, and I appreciate how well thought-out they are

I have ulcerative colitis, which is a chronic autoimmune disease of the colon.  I got diagnosed in 2009, 3 years before I started transitioning.  The disease drastically changed how I lived my life.   It's a condition which reacts to one's stress level, and thus compounds in severity whenever it flares up.  That disease is what sparked a depression which has plagued me ever since.

The symptoms aren't bad at all right now, knock on wood, but I believe the trauma from that experience haunts me and makes me more susceptible to stress/emotion. 

I've started to resent my job in the last half year.  I hate the job for many other reasons, but for what it's worth, there's no chance of me coming out there, and I'm fully covered in winter clothes which cover my hair which I normally hide behind in pictures, and I see my reflection all day.  But for right now I'm stuck there for health insurance.  I'll need to stay there if the insurance exchanges never get fixed and the system flops.

I like to tell myself that if I stopped hormones that I'd be devastated.  I've already been through a phase of deeper doubt early this year, but it passed.  I love everything that's changing with my body.  The skin, boobs, scent, hair... I don't want to stop hormones.  It kind of feels like I flew up to 10,000 feet, opened the door of the plane, got my chute on and everything, and am standing at the door playing on my phone or something, refusing to jump.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on November 03, 2013, 08:07:52 AM
thank you for all of the responses, and I appreciate how well thought-out they are

I have ulcerative colitis, which is a chronic autoimmune disease of the colon. 

It kind of feels like I flew up to 10,000 feet, opened the door of the plane, got my chute on and everything, and am standing at the door playing on my phone or something, refusing to jump.

Oh, I'm sorry to here that.  (I suffer from chronic migraine which means I cannot take hormones - ever!)

Refusing to jump eh?  I don't know what to tell you.  I know my transition was a matter of life or death.  Mine.  I chose life.

I suspect you just need time to sort out the safest way to jump.   Don't worry, apprehension & fear will be normal 

I have a bit of experience with the depression and anxiety issues...the first medication my doc gave me were anti-anxiety meds, and I'm to take one just before any major-stress event (such as meeting people, etc)

I also found that I had to take one every once in a while if I were introducing something new in my transition, before I came out...nail polish? Took one. Lipstick? Took one. Dangly earrings? Took one. But only one...the next day, I was fine. The ice was broken for that element...it went on until the day I asked for a new name tag, and by then I did not need a "chill pill". 

Maybe you just need something to get over the ice-jam in your transition? Talk it over with your the*apist or doctor, that'd be the best thing  imho.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on November 03, 2013, 08:07:52 AM
thank you for all of the responses, and I appreciate how well thought-out they are

I have ulcerative colitis, which is a chronic autoimmune disease of the colon.  I got diagnosed in 2009, 3 years before I started transitioning.  The disease drastically changed how I lived my life.   It's a condition which reacts to one's stress level, and thus compounds in severity whenever it flares up.  That disease is what sparked a depression which has plagued me ever since.

The symptoms aren't bad at all right now, knock on wood, but I believe the trauma from that experience haunts me and makes me more susceptible to stress/emotion. 

I've started to resent my job in the last half year.  I hate the job for many other reasons, but for what it's worth, there's no chance of me coming out there, and I'm fully covered in winter clothes which cover my hair which I normally hide behind in pictures, and I see my reflection all day.  But for right now I'm stuck there for health insurance.  I'll need to stay there if the insurance exchanges never get fixed and the system flops.

I like to tell myself that if I stopped hormones that I'd be devastated.  I've already been through a phase of deeper doubt early this year, but it passed.  I love everything that's changing with my body.  The skin, boobs, scent, hair... I don't want to stop hormones.  It kind of feels like I flew up to 10,000 feet, opened the door of the plane, got my chute on and everything, and am standing at the door playing on my phone or something, refusing to jump.

Okay, so you seem certain on your decision to transition.  That's good.  We at least can get that out of the way.  Still, you need to find the source of your discomfort and why you seem to feel self conscious and fear being open.  I suffer greatly from this too, so I understand very well what it's like to greatly desire something yet having an inability to move forward.  For me, it's a lack of self-esteem and fear of how others will percieve me.  Because I view myself so poorly, I'm afraid to open up and face rejection from others when in reality I'm the real source of my rejection and always have been (well, besides my family).  Getting over that is very hard, and it takes time as I am learning.  However, I don't want to assume the source of your problems?  We are all different.  So let me ask the obvious question, what seems to be the reason for your discomfort? I notice that you have a boyfriend and a supportive structure that would embrace you dressing up for your birthday.  From that, I gather it's likely an inner perception issue than anything else.  But, I'm not you and can only read into what was written and use my own experience as a starting point.  So, what do you think?  What's the root issue causing you to feel unable to take the plunge so to speak?

I'm just afraid that I don't pass well enough. Everybody I know says I'm fine but I don't know if they are just saying that to be kind.

I'm also afraid that i can't cut it as female, and get very intimidated by cis females interacting with one another

Additionally, i feel worse as time passes because my desire to go full time has leveled out, when i thought it would increase the longer i was on hrt

When I went full time, I was sure I didn't pass. It shocked me to find out that much of the time I did, and that turned in to almost all the time eventually. But I was ready to be myself even if people could look at me and guess my medical history, for the rest of my life, because my history is nothing to be ashamed of, it is just a part of me.
What I would recommend is that you do what some of my friends have done, which is to spend an entire weekend - everything outside of work - and just be yourself 24 hours a day, and see how it feels for you.
You will build up your skills, and also your confidence in knowing when you are ready.
You are a beautiful young woman. I think you just need to get some more positive experiences under your belt. You look far more cis- that I did when I went full-time. I know you are trans because you have told me you are. Unless you live in the heart of a heavily LGBT area, most people will not have advanced trans-dar, and will just accept you however you present yourself.
-Maddie

I suggest reading this paper. While I disagree with certain conclusions that Dr. Vitale has arrived at, I believe her observation here is valid.

http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm

In short, she has observed that many MTFs are most dysphoric when T levels are higher. As they subside, the dysphoria fades, leaving them wondering if they are "cured" and leading some to detransition. Then they start the cycle all over again.

If this is you, you may want to focus on what you want out of life as a woman and then begin moving towards obtaining that and living that life.

I had that problem and unfortunately, I worked around it too often by abusing oxy, it took the edge off, relaxed me enough to deal with going places like the grocery store, etc. It didn't help in the long run at all. Finally, I simply decided to put myself out there and got a public type of job. It was difficult at first, but now after a few years, I rarely think about what anyone thinks of me and I am fully myself including the subtle smartassness, friendliness and responsibility. 

I've even gotten to where I will not let the few that intentionally misgender me get me down. I just go on and forget about it as soon as it happens.  Ignoring it seems to take the fun out of it for them and sooner or later, most simply stop gendering me at all or just give in and do as most everyone else does and treat me with respect. 

It takes time, you will have to step way out of your comfort zone, but it is worth it in the long haul. I won't say that I am a very confident person, but I can say I just don't worry about it much anymore.

Thank you all for the kind words and advice. This Friday I hope to go out with a girl friend to the mall... Haven't been in public for like two months