Something thats been annoying me alot lately.. Why does everyone completely ignore how you present and continue to address you incorrectly? If you look like that clearly you do not want to be addressed in an opposing manner. How more obvious can I make it to them? And it still goes over their head. My body does not dictate what I am. If I wanted to be female I wouldnt look like this or act like this

Do they think they're being 'polite' or what? If I was a butch lesbian or whatever the f*** they think and they used a male pronoun on me I'd be much less offended than what they do now. From what I've seen if a cis person is referred to incorrectly they just shrug or laugh it off and thats the end of it. Do it to us though and that is not the case. I know what I would prefer there. My day was ok until one word ruined it all yet again. Im so tired of it.. Not just that but after them knowing my name too and still think I want to be treated this way? I have never heard of Leo being used as a girls name. The only exception I can think of is a character in Tekken 6 if that even counts. Even gets me paranoid I chose the wrong name but then I begin to wonder if even I had a name a girl would never have like David or Robert they'd still just do this anyway. Yeah I am still pre everything cause the process takes forever but my presentation and everything else should be considered, not just what my body looks like that Im doing everything I can to hide but theres nothing else I can do about it. Surgery cant come quick enough

Maybe its slightly less obvious for FTMs as they can be seen as just butch? While MTFs dressing feminine is surely more obvious. I read too much here about MTFs still getting male pronouns despite everything they're wearing, their hairstyle, accessories etc. I just do not get it. Whats difficult about respecting someone enough to comply with how they're clearly trying to look, not what their body is? I know trans is off the radar for the majority of people but I just dont get how it can be so unobvious to them. You shouldnt need to keep correcting people they should just have a bit more decency to begin with to be respectful towards people. Even if I didnt get all this stuff on a personal level and I saw an MTF I wouldnt use the wrong pronouns on them if they made it clear by the way they present. To me it just comes down to respect and many people seem to be lacking this. Are they just so oblivious to everything they ignore it? It feels as if trans people dont exist at all

I do think it's a bigger struggle for FTMs. I know I was talking to one guy once, and he said he was working at a store and he saw someone that presented very masculine - short hair, men's clothes, manly walk, etc. So he said "can I help you sir?" And the woman just flipped out at him, turns out she was a butch lesbian. And a lot of butch lesbians are (understandably) upset when they are addressed as men because of how they present. So people are very tentative, I think, to address someone they perceive as female-sexed as male because it usually upsets women a lot.

I hated it for ages, and sadly, my only condolence was the realization that presenting male wasn't really going to solve my dysphoria anyway. I needed to be far enough along, physically, to see a guy in the mirror to even begin feeling better. And of course, that's when I began passing to strangers as well.

Oy, ouch. 

Well, as a cisperson who is trans* cognizant, it's not always simple even for me.  There are people (and a good number of them I see on the bus, unless it's just the same people time & again) with faces that could be female or male, short hair, and unisex clothes, and it's not always obvious how they want to be addressed.  I also had an uncertainty with the new clerk at the quickie-mart the other morning.  The clerk was male-figured and had a masculine face; he wore a pair of sparkly stud earrings, and had faded magenta lip color. Hair was in a short afro that could've easily been made out to be feminine.    I couldn't tell if this was a boy that wanted to feel pretty, a boy that was in drag last night & didn't have time to clean up, a transwoman presenting as female as the workplace would allow, or what.  I later felt guilty for addressing the clerk as 'sir.'

Though if I knew the clerk's name, I probably would not have been so obtuse.  The name thing is what I'm hung up on.  And I'm sorry you're surrounded by imbeciles.  :/

~V.

This is one of the things I've been wracking my brains over, too.
 
In addition to ignorance, reactions like the one Caleb mentioned are probably what people are worried over (though that seemed a rather severe reaction), and it spells out very obvious offense. Trans* people who get misgendered, at least as far as I've imagined, are more likely to either correct the person or not say anything for whatever reason; the latter is especially if they're at a point where it hurts the self esteem badly to be misgendered despite doing whatever they can to present in the appropriate one. As a result, they go unnoticed. Trans* people are still more of a minority, or at least a quieter presence, than other groups shifting around the gender norms (as such with butch lesbians), and they're going to be more likely to be mistaken for those other groups.
You could look at it another way, with this, and say that people don't like to feel embarrassed; the scene that butch lesbian caused would certainly be humiliating, and would result in them using female titles for anyone looking similarly. The reaction of trans* people like those mentioned above wouldn't impart as much; if a transguy threw a similar fit over being gendered incorrectly, then the person who gendered him incorrectly would hopefully be more mindful next time, but from what I've heard that seldom happens.

Bringing up the pain that comes with being misgendered, a lot of people don't or can't understand that; at the very least, they aren't expected to go around and take every potential misgendering into account for how that could negatively affect a person. Some might not even be able to believe in their world that people can be misgendered!

I can also agree that FtMs have it harder, to some extent, with being properly gendered on a face-to-face basis. You're more likely to find a cis girl wearing men's clothing than a cis guy wearing girl's clothing (and you're arguably better able to find short, ambiguous girls than short, ambigious guys), so transguys are more likely to be pegged as female if they don't pass at first glance.

I see misgenderings towards me all the time...I look at these events as opportunities to introduce myself.

It would be helpful to the next person if we did not "flip out" when someone uses the wrong pronouns etc...that introduces a level of apprehension whenever a non-standard presentation shows up.

And the last thing we need is more apprehension about us.

I have a confession:  Even though it's said of pronouns, "If you don't know, ask," I think I'd be too chicken to ask.  I can't get it out of my head that my asking would in itself be offensive, as if the person might say, "Well isn't it obvious?!?!?"   

Quote from: Valerie on November 07, 2013, 04:39:10 PM
I have a confession:  Even though it's said of pronouns, "If you don't know, ask," I think I'd be too chicken to ask.  I can't get it out of my head that my asking would in itself be offensive, as if the person might say, "Well isn't it obvious?!?!?"

Ditto, I always figured I would feel awful if asked. If someone screws up more than once, I correct them. They usually blush and correct themselves afterward. At least stranger wise.

Quote from: Valerie on November 07, 2013, 04:39:10 PM
I have a confession:  Even though it's said of pronouns, "If you don't know, ask," I think I'd be too chicken to ask.  I can't get it out of my head that my asking would in itself be offensive, as if the person might say, "Well isn't it obvious?!?!?"

Not really.Just saying *hello im so and so,whats your name?* is very easy and that will allow THEM to give the details needed to be addressed correctly

OP, yeah, it pretty much is completely because transsexualism is so far off of most peoples' radars. Most people don't know that gender expression could possibly be linked to the gender that you want to be addressed as, because to them biological sex = gender. So they just assume that if you have a body that looks fundamentally male to them, you're a "sir," and if you have a body that looks fundamentally female to them, you're a "ma'am," regardless of what clothes you're wearing, or how you're acting, or even what name you have. Which is why misgendering early in transition is so common.

It's tough to break through those barriers at first. But it's okay, it gets better. As the body begins to match the presentation a bit better, it will slowly get less and less common, until it's only one or two self-important a**holes doing it to prove how superior they are.

Because while sex isn't gender, presentation isn't gender either, unfortunately. There is absolutely nothing that I could wear that would keep me from getting misgendered, f'ex. Asking people to gender you based on your wardrobe is tough because so many people throw gendered clothing expectations out the window for various reasons that it would misgender just as many people, probably more, to do things that way.

Honestly I think it boils down to human stubbornness, we humans are so stubborn to change. History shows it, it takes a long time for use to address change.

Could it be that many of the above posts have part of it right and that there is no one answer?

In thinking about it myself (based on my own experiences) I really think it is a number of things.


1) People who are genuinely sympathetic to what they see as a CIS-gendered person who is presenting androgenously.  They want the person to feel welcome, appreciated, and respected as a human being... they just don't realize that the person presenting before them *is* trans and that being mis-gendered hurts.

2) Societal expectations: You are either a man or a woman, period.  Being called the wrong thing is very offensive.  Most times, this gendering is an easy call, and it is a way to communicate and identify with someone in a manner far more personable and "socially correct".  So, for most people, using a gender marker in what they say to someone is an important social lubricant. 

In the case of trans* people, this can be a grave mistake, but we're not all that well known yet.

3) Too clever to be "fooled": Some people seem to feel like someone dressed in the other gender's clothing is out to fool them, making a joke at their expense.  They like to show that they aren't "fooled" by addressing a trans* person presenting in their true gender as their bio gender.  Their fragile egos cannot grasp that this person may *be* the other gender.  Pro-tip:  Getting offended can really fluster this type.  They're expecting to be "in on the joke" and "on your side"... if they are corrected sternly they often sputter a bit and blush.  Maybe it is helpful to do so... maybe not.  I can imagine in certain situations this can be dangerous, especially if your trans* status were to become known to them.


Of the above, I like people who fall into category three the most.  Once educated, they tend to be very understanding.  Category 2 seems to fit the vast majority of the people I meet.  Category 3 are the worst, I think, because they can be so touchy.  I will correct a Category 1 if I have the opportunity, a Category 2 if it feels like it matters enough to me (rarely), but a Category 3 I try very hard to ignore.

That being said, I *was* rather proud once when I corrected a waiter.  I was in a restaurant with my family (who used all female pronouns for me and called me Robin in front of said waiter).  The water hesitated before calling me "sir" the first time and I let it slide, thinking of him as a category 2-3... but afterward, when he brought the check, he called me "sir" with a smirk.  Ah.  A hesitant Category 3 mis-genderist.  So, when he came to pick up my credit card, I held on to it, locked eyes with him, and said, "I understand that I appear to be fairly masculine.  I am tall, I have a deep voice, and some of my features are not very feminine.  I have some advice for you, though... if you find yourself serving someone in makeup, a wig, and cosmetics who is obviously presenting herself as a woman, treat her like a woman.  I believe you will find they tip you much better if you do so."  The waiter kind of blanched, then said, "I'm sorry... ma'am?" to which I replied, "Thank you.  I hope you have a better day."

I haven't been back for a month, but I hope to find when I do return his treatment of me has improved.  It would be a nice surprise.

*hug*

*edited because I got confused on my own numbers...

I believe gendering is an unconscious reaction wired into our brains. We are programmed when we meet someone to figure out what gender they are. Our continuation as a species depends on it. Most of us don't notice we are doing it. We tend to look past clothing, hairstyle, etc.

If you are a female-bodied person presenting as male, for example, the person may still gender you as a female without even knowing, but following the visual cues we all go by.

Quote from: Valerie on November 07, 2013, 04:39:10 PM
I have a confession:  Even though it's said of pronouns, "If you don't know, ask," I think I'd be too chicken to ask.  I can't get it out of my head that my asking would in itself be offensive, as if the person might say, "Well isn't it obvious?!?!?"

If I may give my honest opinion, I think this question should only be asked in a very obviously queer setting. If someone asked me this in public, I would be scared and upset, particularly as a man 19 months on T. I would think "omg I dont pass, I will never pass, people can spot me as trans, no one will ever think of me as just another guy." I would rather be flat out misgendered, it would be easier to just say "I'm a guy" and have the person correct themselves. Then I could forget about it.

Quote from: caleb. on November 08, 2013, 12:07:44 PM
If I may give my honest opinion, I think this question should only be asked in a very obviously queer setting. If someone asked me this in public, I would be scared and upset, particularly as a man 19 months on T. I would think "omg I dont pass, I will never pass, people can spot me as trans, no one will ever think of me as just another guy." I would rather be flat out misgendered, it would be easier to just say "I'm a guy" and have the person correct themselves. Then I could forget about it.

I know I would rather never be asked either, because I don't know what I would tell them. "Call me whatever you want" sounds cute in theory, but in reality would probably stymie the very conversation they were trying to make less awkward by asking to begin with. If I had a preferred set, I know I'd rather just correct them, too.

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 08, 2013, 11:20:20 AM
I believe gendering is an unconscious reaction wired into our brains. We are programmed when we meet someone to figure out what gender they are. Our continuation as a species depends on it. Most of us don't notice we are doing it.

Agree with you completely, Suzi. And a lot of it happens subconsciously too.

When I first met my f2m friend "Tom" (not his real name) it was about five years before he started HRT and transitioned. Even then he was presenting as male but without the HRT it was hard to judge his gender, he absolutely looked like a 14 year old boy and yet had also graduated from uni and had a 21 year old hulking tall hairy boyfriend (lovely guy) so I was a bit confused. That was 2003 and I'd never met a trans man at that point (clueless is my middle name) so I wasn't sure if he was a 14 year old boy or a 21 year old woman. I decided it was best to avoid any pronouns but I have to admit I couldn't stop my brain from trying to sort it out. Now he's on HRT there's no misgendering him!

Well I'm glad I 'confessed' then.   Your feedback helps as I'd hate to cause anyone angst. 

I guess im weird because i dont *gender* anyone.But then again i was *taught* differently in some ways.So if i meet people,i either get to know their name and address them only by that or just refuse to use anything that is gender attached *sir,ma'am,miss-things like that* and as far as being mis-gendered myself,i dont really have an issue with it either.Like i met my therapist at the local burger king and she stepped outside and loudly said my female birth name.Of course i explained later on that part of my transition was to *leave* that part behind and so she agreed to call me *chris* and nothing else.this name can be seen for any gender.Could i have passed if she hadnt have done that? of course.one of her other clients came up to me and said *i have some womans pants she can have* and i respectfully but bluntly refused.Why would i need more female stuff when thats NOT part of my transition? for me,its all touch and go as i climb the ladder-i guess ill deal with the rest when i get to the top.

yesyesyes I completely agree. I walk into a store, clearly trying to present as male, buying men's clothes, but still get called "ma'am." It's almost like they're taunting me. Like they know my biological sex and they're mocking me. Ugh.
This is why I wish more gender neutral terms were more common in the English language.

Many if not most languages have gendered terms. All latin based languages gender all objects.