Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on November 17, 2013, 12:49:31 PM
I don't want to walk in anyone's shoes. I want them to walk in THEIR shoes though.

I think until you're willing to understand the experiences of others, their lives and relationships and histories, in even the most basic of ways, you should refrain from claiming to know what's going to be best for everyone.

Because you DON'T know. You just said it yourself, right here.

"All I know is my life, but I think everyone should do like me."

Nope.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on Today at 01:49:31 pm

Quote
I don't want to walk in anyone's shoes. I want them to walk in THEIR shoes though

If someone is stealth then they are walking in thier shoes. That is how they choose to lead their life. I have no intention of telling anyone I have no need to that I am trans. If I get asked I won't hide from the truth but if I am read as a woman then they have no need to know what I was before. Unless it is someone that I am attracted to and start a relationship because then I am all about honesty.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on November 17, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
The odd thing is, after a sufficient period of time it becomes a challenge to NOT be "stealth" to people - that is, to make sure everyone knows. I'm not making a PSA every time I meet someone. I don't make any effort to hide my past, but over 4 years post-transition and 3 years under this name, I absolutely have friends and coworkers (and possibly very distant family?) who have no idea. Because it seems weird and off-putting to introduce myself with this information, and then feels bizarre to randomly bring it up after I've known them for a while... so it just kind of lurks in my past, waiting for a moment when it's relevant.  I think the difference is that I don't feel like I'm living a lie or actively *keeping* a secret, any more than I'm concealing the fact that I used to have a different career or currently write fiction novels.

I have the same problem with being bisexual; people assume you're straight and cis unless told otherwise, but can get all funny about BEING told, so I just wait for a time when it seems natural to mention. If that doesn't happen? Oh well.

I also do agree that "stealth" has a pretty specific meaning, and it sounds like this conversation is more about being in the closet pre- or during transition.

THIS

Quote from: Jenna Marie on November 17, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
The odd thing is, after a sufficient period of time it becomes a challenge to NOT be "stealth" to people - that is, to make sure everyone knows. I'm not making a PSA every time I meet someone. I don't make any effort to hide my past, but over 4 years post-transition and 3 years under this name, I absolutely have friends and coworkers (and possibly very distant family?) who have no idea. Because it seems weird and off-putting to introduce myself with this information, and then feels bizarre to randomly bring it up after I've known them for a while... so it just kind of lurks in my past, waiting for a moment when it's relevant.  I think the difference is that I don't feel like I'm living a lie or actively *keeping* a secret, any more than I'm concealing the fact that I used to have a different career or currently write fiction novels.

I have the same problem with being bisexual; people assume you're straight and cis unless told otherwise, but can get all funny about BEING told, so I just wait for a time when it seems natural to mention. If that doesn't happen? Oh well.

I also do agree that "stealth" has a pretty specific meaning, and it sounds like this conversation is more about being in the closet pre- or during transition.

Like Jenna im those stealth without trying people on my school
I don't like being stealth, but I think its something each person are to figure out by themself what kind of life work on for them the best way.
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I dont belive living in a country with no transgender rights atomatically means it okay to be stealth and opposite, theres more facts playing in than just that and each situationtion is diffrent.

I would say most important you should try to be safe untill you can do otherwise.
If ex you live at home with transphobic parrents and they trow you out at the street what good have you got? you only got yourself into a harder situation, unlike if you lived at home you would still had the chance to hold on for a time to you moved to your own apartment and could live your life as intended.
--
I admit im not as out as I wanted. I am out in many ways but theres also many times where I do not out myself, and it may seams cowardly to play the safe card but I feel somethimes it nessesarry untill we get to a point where we can count ourself more or less safe.

Maybe I am being dense, but are you referring to the stealth of a pre-transition person? Hiding and living in denial? Or the stealth of post-transition?

I lived through both. Pre-transition I lived in deep denial. That was until the pain of the denial outweighed everything in my life. Then I knew that the storm was brewing and I was ready to just "do it". If it meant that I had to walk away from people in my life, and in the end I did just that, then so be it. It was easier to be a complete and authentic me than it would have been to live life in constant gender turmoil.

Post-transition, if the question is why hide? Well I'm not really hiding so much as my storm has long passed. I've integrated back into society and truthfully I don't need to bring it up or make it a center point of my existence. It was something I did in the past, just like going to school or getting my drivers license. Over the years I have learned to deal with the awkward questions, but by not answering them, I'm not lying or trying to deceive people as much as saying, it's personal and not something I want to discuss.

I don't know if any of that helped

Hmm ok first off, those stating I am TELLING people to do things, I am TELLING you to stop saying I am forcing anything on anyone.

You do me a disservice suggesting I am. Not to mention it is preposterous to think I even have that power.

I am trying to encourage people though to claim their lives.

Now as for post transition stealth? Hmm ok I will admit I didn't perceive anyone thinking I considered living as who we really are post transition to be as stealth.

Hey, if the day comes, and HRT has given me some small measure of help in developing breasts I will call that awesome. Because wearing fake ones will suck. I suspect it sucks for cancer victims too. If the day comes, and my ward robe has evolved to be all female attire, cool. I have no real desire to waste money on men's clothing. I'm not a man. I look forward to the day I learn proper make up application. I have seen what a skilled hand can do for some of my friends. I don't really believe it is possible yet for me, but then again, I thought a wig was impossible too.

If the day comes, and I can get the surgery to be a past tense portion of my life, I will certainly be very happy.

At that moment, I will be on top of the world.

But I won't then be indulging in a desire to then pretend to have never lived in a male form, and that I have always been a cis female. That would not be stealth, that would be just what it is, lying. I don't loathe my own past, I just don't love it. I don't 'hate' me for being me, I simply wish I looked different.

I am not in stealth, and I will never be in stealth. But hey, if you live in a part of the world where it could be dangerous to be known to be TG, and a TG person can't get an operation that will ever make you not TG, then it was never a 'choice' to be anything else other than in stealth. I mean, come on, there are places where the people WILL try to kill you.

So making comments that I am not sympathetic to those persons? Frankly that's offensive. You can cram THAT sort of attitude let me tell you.

Now as for the whole 'closet' thing, that has, and is still today, a term that has homosexual connotations. Sad to say, but forget expecting to meet many people that think you are talking about the TG experience if you start throwing coming out of closets in your conversations. I was never in any closet figuratively. I was at one time, unaware of myself. I awakened to my true self. I informed the people around me. Yes it was a revelation that may well have resulted in my being a tragic statistic. I was indeed a lucky one.

There is no reason to think you have to be a negative when you might be a positive story.

I don't care how people 'read' me. I'm a woman. Hey, I see people 'reading' people all the time as many things in addition to gender biased appraisals. People are called short, fat, ugly, poor, lazy, and so many other things. Humanity can be a nasty bunch. I don't think I will ever be mistaken for a hot looking woman And I am unsure if I will ever get the benefit of being mistaken as female.

But I am certainly not going to pretend to be something else if I don't need to.
Oh if I could only snap my fingers, and bring everyone out of the nasty countries to my home town.

I guess it depends on how you define "stealth."

I will be out to everyone who knew me before (and still know me now). I will be out to everyone at work (when the time comes). I will not be out to random strangers who say hi... but if they question me, I plan to be forthcoming (within reasonable dignity).

I also don't have a lot of choice. I can either be out and proud here in my home state, or I can move far away and (basically) abandon my kids. I fully intend to be out here... if I can't hack it, then we'll talk stealth .

Kia Ora Lesley,

When I transitioned I did so in order to live as my psycho-sexual identity, ie to be seen accepted and treated as such(and fortunately this as turned out to be the case)...However  I have nothing against trans-people who choose to live in the so called 'third gender' role, ie 'out and proud', but this was not the purpose of my physical transition...

There are many trans-people like myself who have the luxury of being able to pick and choose whether or not to disclose our past life, that is, on a need to know bases...

I'm what one would call 'semi-stealth' comfortable about my past should people need to know , but having the luxury of blending in and getting on with life as your average middle age woman - minus the 'trans' label  (I also have the good fortune of living in a trans-friendly country, so I'm not fearing for my life if people find out)...

Lesley as another poster had already mentioned, a few years down the track once you have fully transitioned (and if you have the good fortune to 'blend in' as your preferred gender) you might think differently about being up front about your past, perhaps you too will outgrow the "T" shirt so to speak, but still keep it hanging in the back of your closet as a momento...

Nothing's permanent including how you feel about things at this moment in time 'now'...

Metta Zenda

I would like to address the ideal of being out and honest about yourself. 

I think many trans people don't acknowledge the current situation of society, especially in the U.S.  "I'd have gladly lived on the street, than live in a fake family", "I'd rather be unemployed, than living a fake life for a few bucks", those are great ideals but I will just say this, that its not easy finding a decent paying job nowadays, and getting out of homelessness is not a cakewalk.  I can see how one would want to be stealth just to have a chance at a decent life in society nowadays, especially if they don't live in an LGBT friendly part of the country.

I want to address a couple of comments.

First off, I haven't made a cent since 1994. I'm disabled, I live on a disability pension. It sucks massively inasmuch as pride is concerned. I go from month to month wondering if this is the month society falls apart and I have nothing, utterly nothing. The only thing that keeps me going, well the only way it will happen to me, is if it happens to everyone else, and then I'd hardly be alone.

I KNOW what it feels like to have nothing. I have been fully aware of that feeling for 20 years. Try and deal with the knowledge the amount of work available means nothing, as you can't do any of them anyway.

That, and the term 'fully transitioned'. I suppose it is attitude. I was fully transitioned the day I woke up to my truth. Transition I suppose means a lot of things to a lot of people. I am not in transition to becoming a woman. I AM a woman. Womanhood isn't a dress. Womanhood isn't a vagina. You are either a woman, or you are not. That applies to man, or our andro companions on site too. You don't 'become' who you are, you ARE who you are. The only thing in flux, is your level of acceptance of it. And you can take your entire life fighting over it if you need to.

The only thing I am looking forward to, is not getting erections that need attention, and some cosmetic improvements in the same way a person looks forward to the day when their fixer upper house looks presentable enough to call it finished.
I'm not going to lie to myself though, and pretend there will ever be a day like in my fantasies, when I am up on the dance floor and some horny man is wanting to take me home to have sex. I hope I never actually meet a man so blind and so desperate

I do hope I achieve a level of success, where it becomes obvious calling me 'sir' only marks a person as an idiot.
But I don't think most of us will ever reach a day when our point of origin is totally unrecognizable.

Then again..... I walk past soooo many cis females, that certainly could use a little advice on how to improve their appearance. It's not like there is a lot of competition around from the cis females some days. It's almost a variation of the joke, all the good looking guys are gay. All the good looking females, might not actually be cis females.

I also want to acknowledge the irony of this rep comment. "Judgmental, naive, and not helpful. Too many of these threads."

Precisely what did you think that was?

Perhaps you might wish to realize, you are judgmental, and naive for thinking it bothers me and clearly you were of no help to me.

There's too many people thinking like that on this forum.

I'd draw a distinction between stealth (which would be impossible for me, since I'm transition in place), and choosing the time and manor in which people find out I'm trans. I don't attempt to be stealth, but I do ask my friends not to out me, and I do wait until I get to know someone new before I let them in on my past.

But I don't think I could really consider someone a close friend if they didn't know my past. It is a big part of me.

Lesley : I'll say again, though, I've never lied to anyone or made any attempt to hide my past. And yet, the majority of people who interact with me now don't know I'm trans. That isn't "stealth," which implies a concerted effort to *prevent* people from knowing, but it's indistinguishable on a case by case basis.

I'm willingly out whenever I think it'll help, too, but I'm too shy to want to make a giant public announcement constantly. Some people do, and I admire them for it, but I'm just not able to cope with it.

(also? I do believe that I, personally, *became* who I am now. My gender identity evolved; I didn't spend my life up until transition fighting to accept or acknowledge it. I don't think it's judgmental to say that something isn't true for me.)

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on November 18, 2013, 07:29:37 AM
That, and the term 'fully transitioned'. I suppose it is attitude. I was fully transitioned the day I woke up to my truth. Transition I suppose means a lot of things to a lot of people. I am not in transition to becoming a woman. I AM a woman. Womanhood isn't a dress. Womanhood isn't a vagina. You are either a woman, or you are not. That applies to man, or our andro companions on site too. You don't 'become' who you are, you ARE who you are. The only thing in flux, is your level of acceptance of it. And you can take your entire life fighting over it if you need to.

This is true, but it's only a part of transition.

I came out to myself in August (then to my wife and parents)... it was the most satisfying and heart lifting and painful experience in my life to date. I have quickly come to realize that I was never male. I didn't become female when I came out. I didn't become female when I started physical transition. I won't become female when I start HRT... those are just things that help me fix the social problems of being a woman but looking (and being forced to act) like a man.

I was born female with an intersex condition that caused the doctors to assign me male at birth. Transgender is just a more easily hidden and more difficultly diagnosed intersex condition; more recent neurological studies support that as fact.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on November 18, 2013, 07:34:49 AM
I also want to acknowledge the irony of this rep comment. "Judgmental, naive, and not helpful. Too many of these threads."

Precisely what did you think that was?

Perhaps you might wish to realize, you are judgmental, and naive for thinking it bothers me and clearly you were of no help to me.

There's too many people thinking like that on this forum.

You're telling people how to live. You're telling people that you know what's best, even though you don't care to know the nuances of other folks' lived experiences. You're applying your one life to every trans* person on this forum, telling them that they're going to die if they don't take your advice.

How is that helpful? How is that not incredibly naive and judgmental? You are judging people's lives and choices and telling them that they should be doing something else because you somehow know better. I'm not here to be told what to do by someone who lives in one of the cushiest countries in the world. I'm not interested in being told what to do by someone who isn't Latin@, who has no idea what it's like to be Latin@.

You make a lot of these ranting raving threads, Lesley, wherein you take some piece of your life and try to apply it to all trans* experience. And you don't often come back to even discuss what you said when folks reply.

And talk about judgmental...

QuoteI walk past soooo many cis females, that certainly could use a little advice on how to improve their appearance.

I'm sure they can get along just fine without you telling them how ugly they are.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on November 17, 2013, 10:00:50 AM
The only time stealth is an option, is if you live is a ->-bleeped-<-ty little country that puts the TG at risk of being killed over it.

And yet I am "stealth" with quite a number of colleagues, acquaintances, and one close friend. If I came out to all of these people, I would be telling them information about me that they don't need to know. I'm a guy. There it is.

For most of these people, my coming out would simply confuse them and make them doubt who and what I am. It IS an option, and I have chosen it.

The close friend is an exception--I doubt that he would be confused--but he is a gay man who sees me as a "regular" gay man, and I've been so starved for that ALL MY LIFE that coming out as trans simply isn't a good option, at least not right now.

I've seen what happens to my buddy when he tells people he is FTM. A large percentage of people don't "get it," he gets a lot of rude and intrusive questions, and many of the people immediately begin to misgender him to his face. Considering how dysphoric I became when my father misgendered me ONCE in a recent letter, I really don't think I need to open myself up to further dsyphoria such as my friend has experienced. And I don't need people reminding me of my trans-ness every day and telling me that I'm not a real man if I haven't had bottom surgery.

Please don't tell me that my life choices are wrong for me.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on November 18, 2013, 07:29:37 AM
I want to address a couple of comments.

First off, I haven't made a cent since 1994. I'm disabled, I live on a disability pension. It sucks massively inasmuch as pride is concerned. I go from month to month wondering if this is the month society falls apart and I have nothing, utterly nothing. The only thing that keeps me going, well the only way it will happen to me, is if it happens to everyone else, and then I'd hardly be alone.

I KNOW what it feels like to have nothing. I have been fully aware of that feeling for 20 years. Try and deal with the knowledge the amount of work available means nothing, as you can't do any of them anyway.

That, and the term 'fully transitioned'. I suppose it is attitude. I was fully transitioned the day I woke up to my truth. Transition I suppose means a lot of things to a lot of people. I am not in transition to becoming a woman. I AM a woman. Womanhood isn't a dress. Womanhood isn't a vagina. You are either a woman, or you are not. That applies to man, or our andro companions on site too. You don't 'become' who you are, you ARE who you are. The only thing in flux, is your level of acceptance of it. And you can take your entire life fighting over it if you need to.

The only thing I am looking forward to, is not getting erections that need attention, and some cosmetic improvements in the same way a person looks forward to the day when their fixer upper house looks presentable enough to call it finished.
I'm not going to lie to myself though, and pretend there will ever be a day like in my fantasies, when I am up on the dance floor and some horny man is wanting to take me home to have sex. I hope I never actually meet a man so blind and so desperate

I do hope I achieve a level of success, where it becomes obvious calling me 'sir' only marks a person as an idiot.
But I don't think most of us will ever reach a day when our point of origin is totally unrecognizable.

Then again..... I walk past soooo many cis females, that certainly could use a little advice on how to improve their appearance. It's not like there is a lot of competition around from the cis females some days. It's almost a variation of the joke, all the good looking guys are gay. All the good looking females, might not actually be cis females.

Kia Ora Lesley,


What is it that you really want from life ? And how do you think you can achieve it ?

If you really want to be totally honest and open with yourself and others (and are truly prepared to 'fully' accept the consequences of being/doing so) then what's stopping you ? Are you already doing this ? And is it making your life any easier (that is, a little less stressful) ?

It saddens me to hear about your life's predicament/struggles...The pain/anguish that it's causing you tends to show up quite often in your 'pull no punches-hard hitting' posts...I can only wish you well and that you eventually find the inner peace you are looking for...

Remember: Life is what YOU make of it, and not the other way round...

Metta Zenda

Lo I'm not going to neg rep you, as I don't really like the rep system to begin with.

I'm just going to ask you to depart my thread, and to refrain from participating in any other threads I create.

No I have no power to keep you off them, and I am not going to hissy fit or report anything you post if you refuse. But, I am still hoping you understand, I don't consider your comments entirely welcome.

You seem to think I live on the forum. I might not return to a thread simply because there is more to life than a forum, any forum. Sorry if I was not able to keep you entertained.

Please excuse your self from my presence. I suspect I would not like you in person. You clearly are only interested in your own opinions.
You really should try and consider committing to something though. You seem to want to walk down the middle of the road in life.

I some times wonder, if people really understand the words on the screen. Stealth, it means to hide. If you are female and you are dressed as female, and you are a transwoman like me, and the people around you can't tell you are TG, and they think you are cis female, it isn't stealth to just leave them to their incorrect conclusions. You are not required to go through life with a sign around your neck proclaiming your life history 'just to make sure they don't make any mistakes, or come to any incorrect conclusions.

Stealth is a transwoman wearing men's clothing for fear of being revealed to be TG in an environment where it could cause serious harm to the TG individual. Stealth is deliberate deception. If I walk down the street in a wig and a artificial bust wearing a nice skirt and very modest makeup and I get treated like a female by casual passers by, that isn't 'stealth' that is simply me realizing a dream of looking as good on the outside as the me does on the inside.

Now, if some of you simply can't read my posts, as simple comments, I can't help ya there. I am NOT demanding anything. Hell if I am going to post demands, I'll start telling you to send me money eh.

Anatta, heheh the idea I am not being totally honest with myself is hilarious.
I don't know, I suppose society is just so utterly and completely based on lies so much so that people simply can't actually cope with the fact I am exactly that, brutally honest. I suck at lying. There's never any writing between the lines in my posts. I don't do inuendo.

Look to the left, the expression under my name, above the avatar. I took some effort to arrive at that one.
The main reason people CAN'T routinely cope with me, is I AM the real deal.

I feel sad for people like Lo, because clearly Lo lives in one of those parts of the world where it sucks to be TG.
You can see it in her comments. She's not really angry at me, she's angry because she can't be me.
I live in Ontario Canada, and contrary to most of the Americans in America, THIS is the land of milk and honey. This is the bastion of freedom.
It's not my fault I was born here though.

What do I want from life?
Well it is not easy to list anything without sounding spoiled and privileged.
I just want to be me.
Sadly life is not interested in letting me be a parent of 3. And life said no to running a business. Life said no to owning a home and a shop.
I have put my foot down though on TG. Life is not telling me I can't live the rest of my years as a woman.

But I am not going to be spending effort making sure they know why I look the way I look. I'm not obligated to do that.
The boy that walks past me with his pants near off, he l looks stupid, so what, that's his business.
The girl that walks past me in jeans with a dozen holes in them looks stupid, so what, that's her business.
The guy that walks past with his great big beer gut draped way over his belt, ok as long as he's ok with the effect it has on his health, that's his business.
I look the way I look, and no doubt people like that above will be talking to themselves saying whatever it is they say.

Humans are inherently judgmental. It's all about what do you do with it though.

I found inner peace about hmm 10 years ago actually. It had nothing to do with any of my TG situation though.
I had spent many years in limbo, and then had a passing fancy with religion again with the Mormon faith. Then I had a breaking point moment.
I stopped denying all the years of learning I had done. My education brings me great inner peace. I have seen so much. I just needed to accept it.

I have seen the cosmos through the eyes of Hubble, and gazed at the immense wonder of all that is visible. I have been humbled at how small I can seem, and yet I am a part of it. I can look back over billions and billions of years of the truly awesome spectacle of life and see the sheer magnitude of it all. And I am just such a tiny spec in that stream. But I am still a part of it.

My name is Lesley Roberta and I don't need anything else actually.

Life is just life. It isn't fair or kind, or mean or horrible. I don't resent my life. But I try to go around some of the hills, and not over all of them